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Should they add a DPS meter? - [Merged]


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DPS meter has nothing to do with compromise.If you die, you are a waste to the team. You can't do the mechanics, you always die, the team is going to boot you regardless if DPS meter.

DPS meter helps people get better, helps other people see your DPS and they give you tips.Also helps identify the person who isn't doing their share of the DPS in DPS check content like in fractals they have Subject 7, they have content in Strikes and Raids where you don't meet certain DPS, you don't win too.

Identify the person, fix them, and everyone wins."Hey low dps dude, do this 27 button opener loop, then after that do this 19 button continuous dps loop, thats it"

...People having hard time remember 48 buttons, yep its time they "developers" make it so the game isn't button smash and memorization. 4-8 button loops is a good sweet spot.

Back in the days, Warrior, press 2, use utility, press 2 again.Warrior a DPS, the best DPS. Not some CC, not some tank. DPS, Warriors designed for DPS.

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@archmagus.7249 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:I'm confused, how is a DPS meter going to help with rotations?

Lets people know whatever they currently doing is bad, and when someone tells them the correct rotation, they and the other people can see, that the DPS more efficient or worse.

But thats not the problem, the attack rotation being too long is the REAL solution to this.Knowing people do bad or good dps doesn't solve anything.Close that wide dps gap is the solution and it starts with attack chains being too long.

A DPS meter will help with making new builds too. Not everyone has to follow snowcrows or
be a pro
to go outside the meta/suggested build.

If your dps goes down, it's it's not that the player is bad all the time. Sometimes some adds spawned and messed up your rotation. Or the boss randomly decides to stun you.

I think adding a built in dps meter is a bad idea because it will bring toxicity. "Oh we all failed on the last boss? Better kick the person with the least dps."

If you raid, you should expect toxicity. It is what it is. In fact, that is what they are known for. It's never enough that you clear the raid, you always need "max deeps" for the FASTEST clears. All caps and bold for emphasis.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:If Yoshi-P doesn't think an official DPS-Parser is needed in FFXIV, I don't think we need an official one here.

FF14 and GW2 are two very different games.

Thanks, wouldn't have guessed that without your statement.

No problem. Now you know why someone thinking that a DPS meter isn’t needed in that game doesn’t matter for GW2.

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@"Yggranya.5201" said:

If you raid, you should expect toxicity. It is what it is. In fact, that is what they are known for. It's never enough that you clear the raid, you always need "max deeps" for the FASTEST clears. All caps and bold for emphasis.

you dont need to expect toxicity bc it isn't true that all raiders are toxic and till yet i never was in a pug that complained that we cleared the wing but not in the fastest way possible.

maybe it is on the NA side this way but on EU im faced more toxicity when a OW Meta failed than i ever have faced in Raids or PvP.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:If Yoshi-P doesn't think an official DPS-Parser is needed in FFXIV, I don't think we need an official one here.

FF14 and GW2 are two very different games.

Thanks, wouldn't have guessed that without your statement.

No problem. Now you know why someone thinking that a DPS meter isn’t needed in that game doesn’t matter for GW2.

Because you said so? Debatable. I‘d rather listen to the opinion of an acclaimed MMORPG dev than someone I‘ve never heard from before.As it stands, an official DPS parser isn‘t needed for GW2. Arc does just fine. If it was actually needed, it would already be in the game. Also, if things from other games didn‘t matter we wouldn‘t have raids nor mounts in the first place.

Or in the terms some people use here on the forums: Official DPS meters are a waste of development time that can better be spend elsewhere.

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:I'm confused, how is a DPS meter going to help with rotations?

Lets people know whatever they currently doing is bad, and when someone tells them the correct rotation, they and the other people can see, that the DPS more efficient or worse.

But thats not the problem, the attack rotation being too long is the REAL solution to this.Knowing people do bad or good dps doesn't solve anything.Close that wide dps gap is the solution and it starts with attack chains being too long.

A DPS meter will help with making new builds too. Not everyone has to follow snowcrows or
be a pro
to go outside the meta/suggested build.

If your dps goes down, it's it's not that the player is bad all the time. Sometimes some adds spawned and messed up your rotation. Or the boss randomly decides to stun you.

I think adding a built in dps meter is a bad idea because it will bring toxicity. "Oh we all failed on the last boss? Better kick the person with the least dps."

If you raid, you should expect toxicity. It is what it is. In fact, that is what they are known for. It's never enough that you clear the raid, you always need "max deeps" for the
FASTEST
clears. All caps and bold for emphasis.

Really sucks that people missuse even the unofficial ones like this:https://twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1299736372757114883

And that was T1. Those people are a bunch of clowns.Yoshi-P is right.

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@Obfuscate.6430 said:I think there might be a compromise that might work.

Consider an in-house DPS meter for guilds , which would allow guild members to see each other's information.This helps in two ways: It can allow training guilds to directly work with members who need help the most as OP felt it might.It will allow people to play with who they want and how they want to the standards they expect.

Another possibility is to expand this idea with Guild Alliances, a feature they might introduce with the newest expansion since guild alliances were such a major part of the Factions campaign.

I think there is a misconception that you need to have peak performance to clear content. That is the message the DPS meter sends and it is the wrong one.While I don't want to /gg for half an hour until I rage quit, I also don't want to be forced in to a play style that isn't mine just to gain access to stories, and skins.What OP and many others overlook is that you can still play well and still clear content , even if it's a little slower than ideal.

You do not have to play with people who want to play that way and vice versa. That's just the bottom line.

you know that if you remove public dps it's gonna be worse.

Because nowday, as long you do your dps, people don't care if you bring the class that is not absoulte meta.I play weaver at it's meta nowhere in raids but i still do 1-2 most dps so they don't care.Now what happend if there is no dpsmetter ? The community will have no way to know if you do your dps, so they will ban offmeta dps like in the old days (when they was no dps metter) because you will do better dps with the same skill on a meta class (except some exception).Back in the days necro and others was banned because the class do low dps and even if the player is really good with it, the group can't know that so they just don't take the risk.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:If Yoshi-P doesn't think an official DPS-Parser is needed in FFXIV, I don't think we need an official one here.

FF14 and GW2 are two very different games.

Thanks, wouldn't have guessed that without your statement.But in this case it's very relevant. Yoshi-P doesn't think an official DPS parser is needed
in FFXIV
. That does not mean anything about GW2 however. Both DPS disparity and DPS requirements are much, much higher in GW2 than in FFXIV. And FF XIV has a duty finder system that can work due to that game having trinity (and hard-coded roles), and (again) due to a much lower dps disparity and much lower/rarer dps requirements.

In short, an average player queuing for a duty in FFXIV is most likely good enough for the content, there's no real need to prefilter. In GW2 for many of the instances it's the opposite.

Correction: after a moment of consideration, i decided that you're right after all - GW2 does not really need an official parser, because it's simply not needed in the content most players frequent. An unofficial parser, like ArcDPS, however, is very much needed.Notice, though, that this has nothing to do with Yoshi-P's opinion about FF XIV.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:If Yoshi-P doesn't think an official DPS-Parser is needed in FFXIV, I don't think we need an official one here.

FF14 and GW2 are two very different games.

Thanks, wouldn't have guessed that without your statement.But in this case it's very relevant. Yoshi-P doesn't think an official DPS parser is needed
in FFXIV
. That does not mean anything about GW2 however. Both DPS disparity and DPS requirements are much, much higher in GW2 than in FFXIV. And FF XIV has a duty finder system that can work due to that game having trinity (and hard-coded roles), and (again) due to a much lower dps disparity and much lower/rarer dps requirements.

In short, an average player queuing for a duty in FFXIV is most likely good enough for the content, there's no real need to prefilter. In GW2 for many of the instances it's the opposite.

Correction: after a moment of consideration, i decided that you're right after all - GW2 does not really need an
official
parser, because it's simply not needed in the content most players frequent. An
unofficial
parser, like ArcDPS, however, is very much needed.Notice, though, that this has nothing to do with Yoshi-P's opinion about FF XIV.

Generally agree, however I'd note that after playing FF for the last year-ish, there is a similar dps disparity in that game as there is in gw2. It caught me off guard because I expected the lack of stat/build options, and clearly identified built-in rotations to resolve many of the issues that cause dps disparity here, but it just didn't. You're correct though in that outside of the hardest difficulty instances, the dps requirements are much lower. As long as people do not sit in excessive amounts of avoidable damage, and the tank/healer don't fall asleep at the keyboard, it is very difficult to fail an encounter due to low dps.

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@"Raknar.4735" said:Well, Yoshi-P tolerates unofficial Parsers, as long as they aren't used for toxic intentions, and he is strictly against official Parsers. I share his opinion on this.Only because he develops another game it doesn't mean that I can't share his opinion and also believe his opinion matters for this game ¯\(ツ)

Not trying to pin you down or trap you or anything, but out of curiosity, what would you consider to be toxic intentions when it comes to parsers?

I ask because although the usage of meters in gw2 and ff is relatively similar (unsupported third party, not widely used, skews towards high-performance focused players), the moderation in the two games is very different. For example, if I were to politely tell someone in my fractal group that based on my meter their damage was low, and they should try x, y, or z to improve, they might tell me to fuck off, but not much worse would come of that exchange. If a similar thing happened in ff and that person filed a report, there's a reasonable chance that I might be facing a suspension or ban because I explicitly mentioned using a meter, regardless of how politely it is brought up, or the fact that it is part of an attempt to be helpful.

For the record I think people who abuse people over dps should be actioned when they have the option to vote kick or leave the group themselves and choose to belittle people instead, but the bar for what constitutes "toxic" can vary greatly.

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@"Raknar.4735" said:

As it stands, an official DPS parser isn‘t needed for GW2. Arc does just fine. If it was actually needed, it would already be in the game. Also, if things from other games didn‘t matter we wouldn‘t have raids nor mounts in the first place.

Or in the terms some people use here on the forums: Official DPS meters are a waste of development time that can better be spend elsewhere.

"Development can spend its time elsewhere"You realize its a team?"ArcDPS is fine, no need to redo it"You realize people not sure if ArcDPS is even ok to use. It's in state of "is it allowed or no, we need official answer"

If you think development can spend time elsewhere that doesn't mean they shouldn't do it.Also, development could be spending its time doing stupid stuff, while THIS is better use of their time.

You assume Development is super smart, they work on the right things, all the time.No, you need people to point out from time to time.Work on this, quit working on useless stuff that people think "development is spending time wisely, don't make them do this"Dumb logic.Look at WWE 2K20 "they should do this and that" someone posts "development should spend time elsewhere"...WWE 2K20 a failure, loses Yukes, aint no WWE 2K21, it failed so hard.Development didn't spend time wisely..GW2 development different?Hows PvP doing, WvW doing? etc. oh thats right, not so good.Development spending time wisely? NOPE..Do the dang DPS Meter. This game has DPS checks, so give us a DPS meter. Subject 7 aint gonna die if you don't meet the DPS check. Can't check without meter. People don't want to get banned because ArcDPS may maynot be allowed ("no official word"), DPS meter fixes all this.Simple fix, fixes a ton of concerns. This is something development team should be spending time on. It doesn't take much time too.

@"wilykcat.5864" said:I dont agree with adding dps meters to this game because in another game World of Warcraft I used to play before this one, other players kept on severly bullying me and threatening me for my dps, so I quit the game. Evenknow a dps meter is a tool, like all tools, they can be misused.

Raid in general is end game. Pretty much every raid is a DPS check. You don't meet DPS check, people going to check you.It's not for casuals, its end game content, they expect you to be end game ready. Not some random with 4k DPS.Raid is end game, it requires end game people. Sure it can be done with non end game gear, but thats from people who are veterans at doing it, who know the mechanics to avoid dying and so on, and can do the 30+ button rotations even in the lesser gear. So they can outdps you in worse gear than you have. Probably full exotic and they outdps you because they can do the 30+ button rotations.

Thats why they need to lessen the rotations down, because DPS meter or no, it won't solve people who just have trouble, or don't want to try hard enough to do the proper rotations for optimal DPS.30 buttons+ is too much. 4-8 button rotations is a sweet spot.

Every MMORPG will have raiders yelling at you for not doing your share of DPS. Usually in raids you wipe, and to solve problem, you check "whose not contributing" and usually its part of the DPS fault."hey you, you doing 4k dps, you doing this rotation? do this rotation, whatever you doing is not working. Your dps is on par with healer, and your dps, do your role"

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One thing that always putted some question marks in my head....

Q:Why would one use DPS meters on this game when all use very similiar traits and classes and gear?

I can understand some of its usage like on WvW gameplay for the info that arcs has like condi cleanse and distance to leader, but more than that :\ its lacks what most wvw players want.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:One thing that always putted some question marks in my head....

Q:Why would one use DPS meters on this game when all use very similiar traits and classes and gear?

I can understand some of its usage like on WvW gameplay for the info that arcs has like condi cleanse and distance to leader, but more than that :\ its lacks what most wvw players want.

using similar Gear, Traits, Classes doesn't mean you are doing the same dps.if one is only hitting his 1 skill he will never do the same damage as one that uses a proper rotation.

arc doesnt only show dps, you can have more infos from it like rotation, boon uptime and other things, you can use it with dps reports where you can have a playback from the encounter to see the positions from the squad.

this are things raid guilds are using to help raid newbies getting better but no one will talk about this things because its more fun telling arc is only used for toxicity.

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@"uberkingkong.8041" said:You realize people not sure if ArcDPS is even ok to use. It's in state of "is it allowed or no, we need official answer"First, we do have an official answer. Second, finding out we do does require looking for it, but is still not any harder than looking for other info needed to play those types of content you would need dps meter for. If someone is unable to find the answer to that question, they will most likely be woefully unprepared for the content where that answer is relevant, and should probably avoid it altogether.

@"Aeolus.3615" said:One thing that always putted some question marks in my head....

Q:Why would one use DPS meters on this game when all use very similiar traits and classes and gear?First, no, not everyone uses similar traits and gear.

Second, even small divergence from those can result in significant changes to dps (pick a single different trait, and you can end up losing as much as 10% damage).

Third, with everything else (class, gear, traits, weapons, skills) being the same, just the difference in order of skills being clicked ("rotation") can drop your dps several times. Even keeping to the same rotation, but not being able to keep up with its timing (because you click a microsecond too slow on eerything) can result in major dps loss.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:One thing that always putted some question marks in my head....

Q:Why would one use DPS meters on this game when all use very similiar traits and classes and gear?

I can understand some of its usage like on WvW gameplay for the info that arcs has like condi cleanse and distance to leader, but more than that :\ its lacks what most wvw players want.

Long winded A: I don't think the assumption you make is generally true across the playerbase as a whole. As far as I am aware, we don't have any stats from anet on how popular different traits and stats are, let alone combinations of traits and stats. I think that information would actually be really interesting, but we simply don't have it available. However you can click through people in open world squads and see a huge variety of trait-specific buffs proc on their bars, as well as see a wide variety of weapons and utilities being used, and those are only the noticeable parts.

What you might be seeing instead is the narrowing of builds when players are looking to perform at higher levels. If you look at high level fractal or raid groups, then yeah, you see pretty close to the same set of builds for each class over and over again. But you can't apply that to the game as a whole.

BUT. Even if every dh took the exact same traits, and every weaver played with full dps stats, a huge part of a players damage output is due to execution. It doesn't matter that my weaver is fully set up following a snowcrows guide, because I haven't spent enough time playing it, and so I won't be able to do a satisfactory amount of damage with it. That's why the meter matters, even when people run the same builds.

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