What Canthan themed legend would you like to see?

Raknar.4735 · September 7, 2020

@"Vyriis.6258" said:Also getting tired of people suggesting Balthazar. As cool as it would be to use a greatsword like Balth does, we can't use him as a legend for the same reasons we can't use Joko, Eir, Trahearne, Vlast, or any of the other characters who have died in "recent events"; they have died in recent events. If a new player were to stumble across someone using "Legendary Marshal stance" or "Legendary Hunter Stance" and notice they were Trahaerne or Eir it would tell them that those two characters are dead before their story gets to that point (talk about spoilers).

We do channel Joko as Legendary Prisoner during the story, while he‘s still around. A legend doesn‘t have to be dead to be channeled.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Prisoner_Stance

Revenants do not commune with the dead, they commune with fully sentient echoes of legendary figures.The entity the echo came from can be dead or alive. In the case of Joko we don‘t commune with the currently active Joko walking around Tyria, but an echo of his former self as a prisoner.

Vyriis.6258 · September 7, 2020

@Raknar.4735 said:
@"Vyriis.6258" said:Also getting tired of people suggesting Balthazar. As cool as it would be to use a greatsword like Balth does, we can't use him as a legend for the same reasons we can't use Joko, Eir, Trahearne, Vlast, or any of the other characters who have died in "recent events"; they have died in recent events. If a new player were to stumble across someone using "Legendary Marshal stance" or "Legendary Hunter Stance" and notice they were Trahaerne or Eir it would tell them that those two characters are dead before their story gets to that point (talk about spoilers).

We do channel Joko as Legendary Prisoner during the story, while he‘s still around. A legend doesn‘t have to be dead to be channeled.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Prisoner_Stance

Revenants do not commune with the dead, they commune with fully sentient echoes of legendary figures.The entity the echo came from can be dead or alive. In the case of Joko we don‘t commune with the currently active Joko walking around Tyria, but an echo of his former self as a prisoner.

The Legends we use on a daily bases are not simple echos, but the legends themselves. During the point in the story where we do channel Joko it is still unknown whether he'd broken out of the prison before or after we had, but that doesn't change the fact that we only channel him long enough for him to say "Release me!". This is either because it's just an echo or because he's still alive. Mallyx has a voice line "You can't hold me forever!" which implies he is bound to us. The voice lines of all the legends thus far tell that they know they are already dead; this is because we are binding their spirits themselves, not echos.

If it were merely echos we were channeling it would be the same situation as with Joko where we'd only get voice lines from the time in which the echo is being channeled from. Or at best spurts of their power during what ever echo we could find while they were in the mists (Which would limit us to Mallyx during his time in the Realm of torment and Shiro during his time as an Envoy). If it were also as simple as channeling echos to rein in a legends power why is it Anet decided to go with Kalla as the legend for PoF? Why not just channel the echo of Balthazar to fight Balthazar with? Or any of the gods for that matter; Grenth (Ice) or Lyssa (Water) would have been good choices as well. Why not channel Malandru to fight Mordrimoth with during HoT? Because we can't simply channel echos and expect nearly as much power as we get from them. It also wasn't until after we defeated Balthazar and Joko that people started thinking of them as legends to channel simply because that's how it works; they need to be dead and have their spiritual forms residing in the mists.

However, all of that aside, neither of us can really say how exactly Revenants channel their power for sure as it's not specifically stated anywhere how our powers work. Given what we know about the mists via fractals, though, we can say for sure that echos within the mists simply repeat themselves, they do not change. Thus it's harder to believe we can pull any substantial power, or hold any sort of conversation, with mere echos.

Raknar.4735 · September 7, 2020

@Vyriis.6258 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:Also getting tired of people suggesting Balthazar. As cool as it would be to use a greatsword like Balth does, we can't use him as a legend for the same reasons we can't use Joko, Eir, Trahearne, Vlast, or any of the other characters who have died in "recent events"; they have died in recent events. If a new player were to stumble across someone using "Legendary Marshal stance" or "Legendary Hunter Stance" and notice they were Trahaerne or Eir it would tell them that those two characters are dead before their story gets to that point (talk about spoilers).

We do channel Joko as Legendary Prisoner during the story, while he‘s still around. A legend doesn‘t have to be dead to be channeled.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Prisoner_Stance

Revenants do not commune with the dead, they commune with fully sentient echoes of legendary figures.The entity the echo came from can be dead or alive. In the case of Joko we don‘t commune with the currently active Joko walking around Tyria, but an echo of his former self as a prisoner.

The Legends we use on a daily bases are not simple echos, but the legends themselves. During the point in the story where we do channel Joko it is still unknown whether he'd broken out of the prison before or after we had, but that doesn't change the fact that we only channel him long enough for him to say "Release me!". This is either because it's just an echo or because he's still alive. Mallyx has a voice line "You can't hold me forever!" which implies he is bound to us. The voice lines of all the legends thus far tell that they know they are already dead; this is because we are binding their spirits themselves, not echos.

If it were merely echos we were channeling it would be the same situation as with Joko where we'd only get voice lines from the time in which the echo is being channeled from. Or at best spurts of their power during what ever echo we could find while they were in the mists (Which would limit us to Mallyx during his time in the Realm of torment and Shiro during his time as an Envoy). If it were also as simple as channeling echos to rein in a legends power why is it Anet decided to go with Kalla as the legend for PoF? Why not just channel the echo of Balthazar to fight Balthazar with? Or any of the gods for that matter; Grenth (Ice) or Lyssa (Water) would have been good choices as well. Why not channel Malandru to fight Mordrimoth with during HoT? Because we can't simply channel echos and expect nearly as much power as we get from them. It also wasn't until after we defeated Balthazar and Joko that people started thinking of them as legends to channel simply because that's how it works; they need to be dead and have their spiritual forms residing in the mists.

However, all of that aside, neither of us can really say how exactly Revenants channel their power for sure as it's not specifically stated anywhere how our powers work. Given what we know about the mists via fractals, though, we can say for sure that echos within the mists simply repeat themselves, they do not change. Thus it's harder to believe we can pull any substantial power, or hold any sort of conversation, with mere echos.

https://guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

"The Mists remember what came before, and echoes of those who left an especially powerful imprint on the world of Tyria can still be found there.A revenant calls upon these legendary historical figures, bringing them back into action to enhance the revenant’s own abilities and power."
"A revenant’s legends are not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient, with opinions and personalities of their own."

Not merely echoes, but still, in fact, echoes, as sentient as they may be.Both quotes state they are echoes of those who left an imprint on Tyria.Imprints of their legend the Mists recorded that are still able to form thoughts and have a personality.

Why can't we channel the gods? We barely know anything about them or their "legends". There's a reason many revenants went a scholarly route to unlock hidden powers by studying the legends of old.Why Kalla? Her legend was written down, we know what she did and how she did it. Gorea Halfcut even tells us she's "learning" to invoke Kalla. That's why she knows so much about Kalla, she's learning about every aspect of her to discover new powers.

Like I've said, they are sentient echoes. We don't commune with the actual entity, but a sentient echo version that was imprinted in the mists during a notable event.We channel Joko's former self that was still a prisoner, an imprint in the Mists, hence the name "Legendary Prisoner Stance".

We don't channel Joko that is still walking on Tyria.It isn't the "Legendary King Joko the Inevitable, the last Primeval King, Joko the Undying, the Scourge of Vabbi, Joko the Feared, Joko the Beloved, Joko the Transcendent, and Joko the Eternal Monarch of All Stance", or simply "Legendary Lich Stance".

Vyriis.6258 · September 8, 2020

@Lily.1935 said:
@"Vyriis.6258" said:What Revenants are doing is technically "necromancy" in that they are communing with the dead, but they then take it further by pulling their power directly from the mists; something Necromancers don't do.

Well, that's not quite true. The necromancer is pulling magic from the mists. As far as we can tell, much of their magic is using the threads of death connecting Tyria to the underworld and realm of torment to fuel their magic. What we see in game isn't quite expressed too clearly so we can only speculate based on in game descriptions and evidence given to us by characters and lore.

Necromancy seems to have a connection to the realm of torment and underworld which you can tell by looking at their minions.

Stygian

, which are partially formed Demon spawn look identical to the minions the necromancer summons. It would seem that the energies the necromancer is calling on are from the mists, a specific part of the mists but this is speculation. But it can't be ruled out that the necromancer's magic isn't connected to the mists because there is evidence that it most certainly is.

Ghastly Breach

the scourge elite is "breaching" the realm of torment as the skill describes it. So they are able to pull directly from the mists in cannon. How much of their magic requires this connection to the underworld and realm of torment? I'm not entirely sure.

Necromancers have more questions than answers. As do Revenants. It would be nice to explore both of their respective magics further.

Though I do agree there are more questions than answers when it comes to the mists and death magic and how exactly they differ. Stygians and minions are not the same. Lore wise minions are simply animated corpses; they are not summoned from another realm. They are made up of the bits and pieces of broken bodies around them, nothing more. The reason they look the same is most likely due to them not wanting to make new assets. It does throw me off, though, when they introduce skills like Ghastly Torment, and even Shadow Fiend, which do both directly connect to the mists (seemingly in the case of Fiend, though this could also just be a ball of condensed death magic). As you say; anything we can come up for these would simply be speculation.

JekthAvid.1408 · September 8, 2020

Not necessarily canthan themed but I think it would be interesting to have Trahearne as an elite spec. Imagine always having him right there, ready to ask for a word?

draxynnic.3719 · September 8, 2020

@"Vyriis.6258" said:You're right; Shroud "could" act like an urn and then summon spirits, but why would you want it to? Shroud can go in so many different and unique ways; why would you want to simply turn it into an urn or as a proxy to summon more spirits? This would also make it feel like Desert Shroud again as it would most likely not put you into an actual shroud and you'd be throwing out stationary allies. And no, the Necromancer does not use magic from the mists, they can use spirits but not from the mists itself. Spirits, and traces there of, remain on the physical plain and can be tapped into via death magic. The only time we see Necromancers tapping into the mists is through actual rituals.

You do know that this is pretty much the main argument that is being levied against the "give Revenant yet another Ritualist-inspired elite spec" push, right? Revenant can go in so many different and unique ways; why would you want to simply turn it into a ritualist proxy?

in Guild Wars 1, there was a clear delineation between necromancer and ritualist. Necromancer, outside of a few skills like Spiteful Spirit which were largely conceived before the ritualist was, deals with corpses and manifestations of death in the corporeal world. Ritualist, on the other hand, dealt with spirits and the spirit world.

In Guild Wars 2, though, this clear line is gone. There's an entire branch of 'spectral' skills, and several weapon skills have names or descriptive text that points to them being spectral in nature (and given how little fluff there generally is regarding skills, that's pretty much all we can expect). Summon Shadow Fiend is pretty unsubtle. Elite specialisations bring us things like Ghastly Breach, and even Reaper and Death Shroud could be viewed as channeling manifestations of death in a similar manner to revenants channeling legends, just powered by life force rather than energy.

Theme-wise, with the broader themes of GW2 professions over GW1 professions, it's fitting to merge death-related themes into one profession that's a master of death both in this world and the next rather than splitting them in two as they were in GW1. Mechanics-wise, necromancer is a much closer fit to ritualist than revenant is, for reasons I discussed in an earlier post in this thread. They already have minions, so they other parts of the ritualist that could be included are weapon spells and urns.

If weapon spells are treated like venoms, then in all honesty, the mechanic is also reflective of something that necromancer had in GW1 but lost in GW2 - namely, Orders. So there's precedent to giving that mechanic to necromancer.

If weapon spells or urns are treated like weapon conjures, then because of the way revenant works, the only way you'd be able to give them to revenant would be to overload it by giving them ALL the options in one build on top of the two full skillbars they already have. Unless, I guess, they use traits to determine which they get as an F2 skill. Necromancer having regular utility skills, though, means that a necromancer could potentially have them as utility skills similar to elementalist conjures or engineer kits (probably the former for balance reasons), allowing them to have just one or two rather than a whole bar of them (which is what usually happened with those skill types in GW1).

Heck, with necromancer, you could potentially combine both weapon spells AND urns into a single elite specialisation. Make the urns behave like weapon skills and slot into utility skills, while venomlike weapon spells replace the death shroud mechanic as a set of support options.

Lily.1935 · September 8, 2020

@Vyriis.6258 said:
@Lily.1935 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:What Revenants are doing is technically "necromancy" in that they are communing with the dead, but they then take it further by pulling their power directly from the mists; something Necromancers don't do.

Well, that's not quite true. The necromancer is pulling magic from the mists. As far as we can tell, much of their magic is using the threads of death connecting Tyria to the underworld and realm of torment to fuel their magic. What we see in game isn't quite expressed too clearly so we can only speculate based on in game descriptions and evidence given to us by characters and lore.

Necromancy seems to have a connection to the realm of torment and underworld which you can tell by looking at their minions.

Stygian

, which are partially formed Demon spawn look identical to the minions the necromancer summons. It would seem that the energies the necromancer is calling on are from the mists, a specific part of the mists but this is speculation. But it can't be ruled out that the necromancer's magic isn't connected to the mists because there is evidence that it most certainly is.

Ghastly Breach

the scourge elite is "breaching" the realm of torment as the skill describes it. So they are able to pull directly from the mists in cannon. How much of their magic requires this connection to the underworld and realm of torment? I'm not entirely sure.

Necromancers have more questions than answers. As do Revenants. It would be nice to explore both of their respective magics further.

Though I do agree there are more questions than answers when it comes to the mists and death magic and how exactly they differ. Stygians and minions are not the same. Lore wise minions are simply animated corpses; they are not summoned from another realm. They are made up of the bits and pieces of broken bodies around them, nothing more. The reason they look the same is most likely due to them not wanting to make new assets. It does throw me off, though, when they introduce skills like Ghastly Torment, and even Shadow Fiend, which do both directly connect to the mists (seemingly in the case of Fiend, though this could also just be a ball of condensed death magic). As you say; anything we can come up for these would simply be speculation.

In the first game this is mostly true. Also new assets is also true, but they need to make a justification for it in the lore regardless because it's there and coincidences aren't something we should default to. The minions form can be explained as the natural form that demons take when this magic is used to form their larval state of their bodies. Of course that's just a hypothesis.

Minions are not reanimate in gw2 but called from the mists. Trahearne calls several from the mists directly in the story. And talks about controlling them and the difficulties in doing that.

Visual evidence in Guild wars 1 shows that the Spirits need to be physically bound to Tyria to for Ritualists to control them and for Revenant it expresses in game how the revenant is fighting for control. The Scourge says "Come and do my bidding" which suggests that Shades have some level of autonomy of their own.

I'm kind geeking out a bit sorry. And thank you for listening.

All 3 classes, Necromancer, Revenant and Ritualist are using mist magic in some way and calling spirits from there, but the personal tax each are putting on themselves varies. I'd say Revenant takes the biggest personal risk drawing a powerful and fully sentient spirit directly into their body. While I'd say the Ritualist takes the least risks, using ritual dances, bones, ashes, furs and teeth to create simple tethers to bind the embodiment of the dead's anguish or pain as opposed to a fully sentient spirit. Necromancers fit in the middle, using blood and life force to fuel their dead to call on them so their price might be more upfront than the other two but is still risky.

Ho boy do I want to see these magics explored more. Most of what I say is my speculation on how it works. Some of it isn't but it's all based in my in game knowledge.

phokus.8934 · September 8, 2020

I don’t care who Revenants get but I’d love to use a scepter.

SidewayS.3789 · September 8, 2020

@phokus.8934 said:I don’t care who Revenants get but I’d love to use a scepter.

Same here. I don't want a GS because it means we will suck AGAIN at range (let's face it aside of WvW, hammer sux big time) and Shorbow on Renegade its ok as a power or condi too, BUT since we lack Power DPS i would prefer Scepter but to work exactly like on Guardian. As you all know, the scepter on guard can pe used as a Melee wep/range and aside of some situations, it does have higher dps than sword. So yes, i want scepter as on our new elite spec,but to work melee/range so we could have SOMETHING worth carrying.

Thornwolf.9721 · September 8, 2020

@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:Also getting tired of people suggesting Balthazar. As cool as it would be to use a greatsword like Balth does, we can't use him as a legend for the same reasons we can't use Joko, Eir, Trahearne, Vlast, or any of the other characters who have died in "recent events"; they have died in recent events. If a new player were to stumble across someone using "Legendary Marshal stance" or "Legendary Hunter Stance" and notice they were Trahaerne or Eir it would tell them that those two characters are dead before their story gets to that point (talk about spoilers).

We do channel Joko as Legendary Prisoner during the story, while he‘s still around. A legend doesn‘t have to be dead to be channeled.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Prisoner_Stance

Revenants do not commune with the dead, they commune with fully sentient echoes of legendary figures.The entity the echo came from can be dead or alive. In the case of Joko we don‘t commune with the currently active Joko walking around Tyria, but an echo of his former self as a prisoner.

The Legends we use on a daily bases are not simple echos, but the legends themselves. During the point in the story where we do channel Joko it is still unknown whether he'd broken out of the prison before or after we had, but that doesn't change the fact that we only channel him long enough for him to say "Release me!". This is either because it's just an echo or because he's still alive. Mallyx has a voice line "You can't hold me forever!" which implies he is bound to us. The voice lines of all the legends thus far tell that they know they are already dead; this is because we are binding their spirits themselves, not echos.

If it were merely echos we were channeling it would be the same situation as with Joko where we'd only get voice lines from the time in which the echo is being channeled from. Or at best spurts of their power during what ever echo we could find while they were in the mists (Which would limit us to Mallyx during his time in the Realm of torment and Shiro during his time as an Envoy). If it were also as simple as channeling echos to rein in a legends power why is it Anet decided to go with Kalla as the legend for PoF? Why not just channel the echo of Balthazar to fight Balthazar with? Or any of the gods for that matter; Grenth (Ice) or Lyssa (Water) would have been good choices as well. Why not channel Malandru to fight Mordrimoth with during HoT? Because we can't simply channel echos and expect nearly as much power as we get from them. It also wasn't until after we defeated Balthazar and Joko that people started thinking of them as legends to channel simply because that's how it works; they need to be dead and have their spiritual forms residing in the mists.

However, all of that aside, neither of us can really say how exactly Revenants channel their power for sure as it's not specifically stated anywhere how our powers work. Given what we know about the mists via fractals, though, we can say for sure that echos within the mists simply repeat themselves, they do not change. Thus it's harder to believe we can pull any substantial power, or hold any sort of conversation, with mere echos.

https://guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

"The Mists remember what came before, and
echoes of those who left an especially powerful imprint on the world of Tyria
can still be found there.A revenant
calls upon these legendary historical figures
, bringing them back into action to enhance the revenant’s own abilities and power."
"A revenant’s legends are
not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient
, with opinions and personalities of their own."

Not merely echoes, but still, in fact, echoes, as sentient as they may be.Both quotes state they are echoes of those who left an imprint on Tyria.Imprints of their legend the Mists recorded that are still able to form thoughts and have a personality.

Why can't we channel the gods? We barely know anything about them or their "legends". There's a reason many revenants went a scholarly route to unlock hidden powers by studying the legends of old.Why Kalla? Her legend was written down, we know what she did and how she did it. Gorea Halfcut even tells us she's "learning" to invoke Kalla. That's why she knows so much about Kalla, she's learning about every aspect of her to discover new powers.

Like I've said, they are sentient echoes. We don't commune with the actual entity, but a sentient echo version that was imprinted in the mists during a notable event.We channel Joko's former self that was still a prisoner, an imprint in the Mists, hence the name "Legendary Prisoner Stance".

We don't channel Joko that is still walking on Tyria.It isn't the "Legendary King Joko the Inevitable, the last Primeval King, Joko the Undying, the Scourge of Vabbi, Joko the Feared, Joko the Beloved, Joko the Transcendent, and Joko the Eternal Monarch of All Stance", or simply "Legendary Lich Stance".

The reason you can't channel the gods (Balthazar and Abbadon) is because if a god falls, or dies or even exists within the mists themselves they are part of the mists. They don't make ripples no matter what it is they do; Or how they do it. When they die they return to the mists and become one with the mists as its stated in the lore, the reason being that one can-not channel them is because they wish not to be channeled. There is only one, ever present version of the gods and they are the determining factor of who can utilize their font of power. A revenant channeling the power of the six would basically be a dervish, as that was dervishes did and the reason their order fell apart and fell to darkness was because the Six began to stop answering their calls. So they turned to Joko and well.... the rest you can discover in the joko fractal.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

There are many types of god, and many more made cannon due to guild wars utopia being made cannon in the guild wars 20th anniversary art book. There are "old gods" and "ancient gods" and "true gods" all of which are different from the six. And then the spirits of the wild are god like in their own way; So in reality there is and are so many different forms of deity that likely we have and can channel that of which we never knew existed to begin with. (A staple unused in revenants theme.)

Personally I want a darker spec, I want something more akin to a villain or an anti-hero. I dont want another good guy. I dont want another ritualist like spec as Kalla in my eyes is enough and fills that role well enough with enough of a twist to get it right. Personally Id want a norn legend, be that Asgeir, Svanir, The spirits themselves or even Frostfang the champion of jormag whom Asgeir fought and killed. Or if we want to get weird we could go tengu, naga, oni or even perhaps Kodan and Koda herself but I Really dont want another human legend (Tired of humans as a whole) and I DONT want it to be a ranged spec; We need core ranged weapons we DO NOT need another Cool ranged weapon locked behind an E-spec. I dont care what melee wep we get, I dont want greatsword particularly id rather have daggers and have a class make daggers useful but... Ill take what I can get in weapon department?

jpsssss.7530 · September 8, 2020

People just out here forgetting Jora for the GS legend. smh. Alternatively, give rev pistol or rifle and Tibalt as a legend.

jpsssss.7530 · September 8, 2020

People just out here forgetting Jora for the GS legend. smh. Alternatively, give rev pistol or rifle and Tibalt as a legend.

Raknar.4735 · September 8, 2020

@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:Also getting tired of people suggesting Balthazar. As cool as it would be to use a greatsword like Balth does, we can't use him as a legend for the same reasons we can't use Joko, Eir, Trahearne, Vlast, or any of the other characters who have died in "recent events"; they have died in recent events. If a new player were to stumble across someone using "Legendary Marshal stance" or "Legendary Hunter Stance" and notice they were Trahaerne or Eir it would tell them that those two characters are dead before their story gets to that point (talk about spoilers).

We do channel Joko as Legendary Prisoner during the story, while he‘s still around. A legend doesn‘t have to be dead to be channeled.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Prisoner_Stance

Revenants do not commune with the dead, they commune with fully sentient echoes of legendary figures.The entity the echo came from can be dead or alive. In the case of Joko we don‘t commune with the currently active Joko walking around Tyria, but an echo of his former self as a prisoner.

The Legends we use on a daily bases are not simple echos, but the legends themselves. During the point in the story where we do channel Joko it is still unknown whether he'd broken out of the prison before or after we had, but that doesn't change the fact that we only channel him long enough for him to say "Release me!". This is either because it's just an echo or because he's still alive. Mallyx has a voice line "You can't hold me forever!" which implies he is bound to us. The voice lines of all the legends thus far tell that they know they are already dead; this is because we are binding their spirits themselves, not echos.

If it were merely echos we were channeling it would be the same situation as with Joko where we'd only get voice lines from the time in which the echo is being channeled from. Or at best spurts of their power during what ever echo we could find while they were in the mists (Which would limit us to Mallyx during his time in the Realm of torment and Shiro during his time as an Envoy). If it were also as simple as channeling echos to rein in a legends power why is it Anet decided to go with Kalla as the legend for PoF? Why not just channel the echo of Balthazar to fight Balthazar with? Or any of the gods for that matter; Grenth (Ice) or Lyssa (Water) would have been good choices as well. Why not channel Malandru to fight Mordrimoth with during HoT? Because we can't simply channel echos and expect nearly as much power as we get from them. It also wasn't until after we defeated Balthazar and Joko that people started thinking of them as legends to channel simply because that's how it works; they need to be dead and have their spiritual forms residing in the mists.

However, all of that aside, neither of us can really say how exactly Revenants channel their power for sure as it's not specifically stated anywhere how our powers work. Given what we know about the mists via fractals, though, we can say for sure that echos within the mists simply repeat themselves, they do not change. Thus it's harder to believe we can pull any substantial power, or hold any sort of conversation, with mere echos.

https://guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

"The Mists remember what came before, and
echoes of those who left an especially powerful imprint on the world of Tyria
can still be found there.A revenant
calls upon these legendary historical figures
, bringing them back into action to enhance the revenant’s own abilities and power."
"A revenant’s legends are
not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient
, with opinions and personalities of their own."

Not merely echoes, but still, in fact, echoes, as sentient as they may be.Both quotes state they are echoes of those who left an imprint on Tyria.Imprints of their legend the Mists recorded that are still able to form thoughts and have a personality.

Why can't we channel the gods? We barely know anything about them or their "legends". There's a reason many revenants went a scholarly route to unlock hidden powers by studying the legends of old.Why Kalla? Her legend was written down, we know what she did and how she did it. Gorea Halfcut even tells us she's "learning" to invoke Kalla. That's why she knows so much about Kalla, she's learning about every aspect of her to discover new powers.

Like I've said, they are sentient echoes. We don't commune with the actual entity, but a sentient echo version that was imprinted in the mists during a notable event.We channel Joko's former self that was still a prisoner, an imprint in the Mists, hence the name "Legendary Prisoner Stance".

We don't channel Joko that is still walking on Tyria.It isn't the "Legendary King Joko the Inevitable, the last Primeval King, Joko the Undying, the Scourge of Vabbi, Joko the Feared, Joko the Beloved, Joko the Transcendent, and Joko the Eternal Monarch of All Stance", or simply "Legendary Lich Stance".

The reason you can't channel the gods (Balthazar and Abbadon) is because if a god falls, or dies or even exists within the mists themselves they are part of the mists. They don't make ripples no matter what it is they do; Or how they do it. When they die they return to the mists and become one with the mists as its stated in the lore, the reason being that one can-not channel them is because they wish not to be channeled. There is only one, ever present version of the gods and they are the determining factor of who can utilize their font of power. A revenant channeling the power of the six would basically be a dervish, as that was dervishes did and the reason their order fell apart and fell to darkness was because the Six began to stop answering their calls. So they turned to Joko and well.... the rest you can discover in the joko fractal.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

Everything is a part of the Mists.I doubt the reason one can not channel a god is because they don't wish to be channeled. Mallyx's echo doesn't wish to be channeled/is offended when mortals borrow the power, yet revenant still do that.

If you think back to Season 1, we would have gotten the "Fall of Abaddon Fractal", if Evon would have won. I'm pretty sure Abaddon himself would have been part of the fractal, so the Mists do remember. So there being "only one, ever present version of the gods" isn't something I buy into. I'd want an Arenanet quote on that, as both Wiki's (which are also player-made and sometimes contain wrong information) don't mention anything about it.

Nonetheless, Balthazar's "light was dimmed" by the others of The Six, he was no longer part of The Six. He probably lost his divinity when the others opposed and chained him in the Mists, the reason why he needed the power of a Bloodstone.

Thornwolf.9721 · September 8, 2020

@Raknar.4735 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:Also getting tired of people suggesting Balthazar. As cool as it would be to use a greatsword like Balth does, we can't use him as a legend for the same reasons we can't use Joko, Eir, Trahearne, Vlast, or any of the other characters who have died in "recent events"; they have died in recent events. If a new player were to stumble across someone using "Legendary Marshal stance" or "Legendary Hunter Stance" and notice they were Trahaerne or Eir it would tell them that those two characters are dead before their story gets to that point (talk about spoilers).

We do channel Joko as Legendary Prisoner during the story, while he‘s still around. A legend doesn‘t have to be dead to be channeled.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Prisoner_Stance

Revenants do not commune with the dead, they commune with fully sentient echoes of legendary figures.The entity the echo came from can be dead or alive. In the case of Joko we don‘t commune with the currently active Joko walking around Tyria, but an echo of his former self as a prisoner.

The Legends we use on a daily bases are not simple echos, but the legends themselves. During the point in the story where we do channel Joko it is still unknown whether he'd broken out of the prison before or after we had, but that doesn't change the fact that we only channel him long enough for him to say "Release me!". This is either because it's just an echo or because he's still alive. Mallyx has a voice line "You can't hold me forever!" which implies he is bound to us. The voice lines of all the legends thus far tell that they know they are already dead; this is because we are binding their spirits themselves, not echos.

If it were merely echos we were channeling it would be the same situation as with Joko where we'd only get voice lines from the time in which the echo is being channeled from. Or at best spurts of their power during what ever echo we could find while they were in the mists (Which would limit us to Mallyx during his time in the Realm of torment and Shiro during his time as an Envoy). If it were also as simple as channeling echos to rein in a legends power why is it Anet decided to go with Kalla as the legend for PoF? Why not just channel the echo of Balthazar to fight Balthazar with? Or any of the gods for that matter; Grenth (Ice) or Lyssa (Water) would have been good choices as well. Why not channel Malandru to fight Mordrimoth with during HoT? Because we can't simply channel echos and expect nearly as much power as we get from them. It also wasn't until after we defeated Balthazar and Joko that people started thinking of them as legends to channel simply because that's how it works; they need to be dead and have their spiritual forms residing in the mists.

However, all of that aside, neither of us can really say how exactly Revenants channel their power for sure as it's not specifically stated anywhere how our powers work. Given what we know about the mists via fractals, though, we can say for sure that echos within the mists simply repeat themselves, they do not change. Thus it's harder to believe we can pull any substantial power, or hold any sort of conversation, with mere echos.

https://guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

"The Mists remember what came before, and
echoes of those who left an especially powerful imprint on the world of Tyria
can still be found there.A revenant
calls upon these legendary historical figures
, bringing them back into action to enhance the revenant’s own abilities and power."
"A revenant’s legends are
not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient
, with opinions and personalities of their own."

Not merely echoes, but still, in fact, echoes, as sentient as they may be.Both quotes state they are echoes of those who left an imprint on Tyria.Imprints of their legend the Mists recorded that are still able to form thoughts and have a personality.

Why can't we channel the gods? We barely know anything about them or their "legends". There's a reason many revenants went a scholarly route to unlock hidden powers by studying the legends of old.Why Kalla? Her legend was written down, we know what she did and how she did it. Gorea Halfcut even tells us she's "learning" to invoke Kalla. That's why she knows so much about Kalla, she's learning about every aspect of her to discover new powers.

Like I've said, they are sentient echoes. We don't commune with the actual entity, but a sentient echo version that was imprinted in the mists during a notable event.We channel Joko's former self that was still a prisoner, an imprint in the Mists, hence the name "Legendary Prisoner Stance".

We don't channel Joko that is still walking on Tyria.It isn't the "Legendary King Joko the Inevitable, the last Primeval King, Joko the Undying, the Scourge of Vabbi, Joko the Feared, Joko the Beloved, Joko the Transcendent, and Joko the Eternal Monarch of All Stance", or simply "Legendary Lich Stance".

The reason you can't channel the gods (Balthazar and Abbadon) is because if a god falls, or dies or even exists within the mists themselves they are part of the mists. They don't make ripples no matter what it is they do; Or how they do it. When they die they return to the mists and become one with the mists as its stated in the lore, the reason being that one can-not channel them is because they wish not to be channeled. There is only one, ever present version of the gods and they are the determining factor of who can utilize their font of power. A revenant channeling the power of the six would basically be a dervish, as that was dervishes did and the reason their order fell apart and fell to darkness was because the Six began to stop answering their calls. So they turned to Joko and well.... the rest you can discover in the joko fractal.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

Everything is a part of the Mists.I doubt the reason one can not channel a god is because they don't wish to be channeled. Mallyx's echo doesn't wish to be channeled/is offended when mortals borrow the power, yet revenant still do that.

If you think back to Season 1, we would have gotten the "Fall of Abaddon Fractal", if Evon would have won. I'm pretty sure Abaddon himself would have been part of the fractal, so the Mists do remember. So there being "only one, ever present version of the gods" isn't something I buy into. I'd want an Arenanet quote on that, as both Wiki's (which are also player-made and sometimes contain wrong information) don't mention anything about it.

Nonetheless, Balthazar's "light was dimmed" by the others of The Six, he was no longer part of The Six. He probably lost his divinity when the others opposed and chained him in the Mists, the reason why he needed the power of a Bloodstone.

"Despite Balthazar's death, some of his magic survived within Aurene and made his recovered greatsword perceive him through her."~ Toward the bottom of the wiki. It covers events pretty well https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/BalthazarArena-net went through some pretty big hoops to really show-case that balthazar was consumed fully by the dragons; So likely Aurene is the only part of him remaining and as far as I recall I believe that might be a case as to why he can't be channeled. Same with Abbadon due to kormir, likely the only being we'd be able to channel who'd give us the feeling of him would be aurene (Unlikely as we have glint) or his replacement, whomever and whatever that is.

The difference between Mallyx and The six is mallyx is like an Ant in the face of the six; He is just some demon who exists in the mists and reforms when beaten so likely he is alive in the mists somewhere. Trapped in the realm of torment; Likely I believe he can be channeled as he really Isn't that powerful I mean a weaker hero of tyria clapped him with a band of mercenaries in nightfall so he really isn't that strong. Plus the six have "left" meaning likely they have moved through the mists and are now elsewhere, as mist beings they dont leave echos. The Echo of shiro we have for example is an echo of mortal/empowered shiro which is why the jade is there, The full power shiro the envoy/abbadon puppet we don't channel as he is a mist being. Likely its why we don't channel a few other note-worthy characters like Razah whom was born within the mists, much like the six.

Raknar.4735 · September 8, 2020

@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:Also getting tired of people suggesting Balthazar. As cool as it would be to use a greatsword like Balth does, we can't use him as a legend for the same reasons we can't use Joko, Eir, Trahearne, Vlast, or any of the other characters who have died in "recent events"; they have died in recent events. If a new player were to stumble across someone using "Legendary Marshal stance" or "Legendary Hunter Stance" and notice they were Trahaerne or Eir it would tell them that those two characters are dead before their story gets to that point (talk about spoilers).

We do channel Joko as Legendary Prisoner during the story, while he‘s still around. A legend doesn‘t have to be dead to be channeled.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Prisoner_Stance

Revenants do not commune with the dead, they commune with fully sentient echoes of legendary figures.The entity the echo came from can be dead or alive. In the case of Joko we don‘t commune with the currently active Joko walking around Tyria, but an echo of his former self as a prisoner.

The Legends we use on a daily bases are not simple echos, but the legends themselves. During the point in the story where we do channel Joko it is still unknown whether he'd broken out of the prison before or after we had, but that doesn't change the fact that we only channel him long enough for him to say "Release me!". This is either because it's just an echo or because he's still alive. Mallyx has a voice line "You can't hold me forever!" which implies he is bound to us. The voice lines of all the legends thus far tell that they know they are already dead; this is because we are binding their spirits themselves, not echos.

If it were merely echos we were channeling it would be the same situation as with Joko where we'd only get voice lines from the time in which the echo is being channeled from. Or at best spurts of their power during what ever echo we could find while they were in the mists (Which would limit us to Mallyx during his time in the Realm of torment and Shiro during his time as an Envoy). If it were also as simple as channeling echos to rein in a legends power why is it Anet decided to go with Kalla as the legend for PoF? Why not just channel the echo of Balthazar to fight Balthazar with? Or any of the gods for that matter; Grenth (Ice) or Lyssa (Water) would have been good choices as well. Why not channel Malandru to fight Mordrimoth with during HoT? Because we can't simply channel echos and expect nearly as much power as we get from them. It also wasn't until after we defeated Balthazar and Joko that people started thinking of them as legends to channel simply because that's how it works; they need to be dead and have their spiritual forms residing in the mists.

However, all of that aside, neither of us can really say how exactly Revenants channel their power for sure as it's not specifically stated anywhere how our powers work. Given what we know about the mists via fractals, though, we can say for sure that echos within the mists simply repeat themselves, they do not change. Thus it's harder to believe we can pull any substantial power, or hold any sort of conversation, with mere echos.

https://guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

"The Mists remember what came before, and
echoes of those who left an especially powerful imprint on the world of Tyria
can still be found there.A revenant
calls upon these legendary historical figures
, bringing them back into action to enhance the revenant’s own abilities and power."
"A revenant’s legends are
not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient
, with opinions and personalities of their own."

Not merely echoes, but still, in fact, echoes, as sentient as they may be.Both quotes state they are echoes of those who left an imprint on Tyria.Imprints of their legend the Mists recorded that are still able to form thoughts and have a personality.

Why can't we channel the gods? We barely know anything about them or their "legends". There's a reason many revenants went a scholarly route to unlock hidden powers by studying the legends of old.Why Kalla? Her legend was written down, we know what she did and how she did it. Gorea Halfcut even tells us she's "learning" to invoke Kalla. That's why she knows so much about Kalla, she's learning about every aspect of her to discover new powers.

Like I've said, they are sentient echoes. We don't commune with the actual entity, but a sentient echo version that was imprinted in the mists during a notable event.We channel Joko's former self that was still a prisoner, an imprint in the Mists, hence the name "Legendary Prisoner Stance".

We don't channel Joko that is still walking on Tyria.It isn't the "Legendary King Joko the Inevitable, the last Primeval King, Joko the Undying, the Scourge of Vabbi, Joko the Feared, Joko the Beloved, Joko the Transcendent, and Joko the Eternal Monarch of All Stance", or simply "Legendary Lich Stance".

The reason you can't channel the gods (Balthazar and Abbadon) is because if a god falls, or dies or even exists within the mists themselves they are part of the mists. They don't make ripples no matter what it is they do; Or how they do it. When they die they return to the mists and become one with the mists as its stated in the lore, the reason being that one can-not channel them is because they wish not to be channeled. There is only one, ever present version of the gods and they are the determining factor of who can utilize their font of power. A revenant channeling the power of the six would basically be a dervish, as that was dervishes did and the reason their order fell apart and fell to darkness was because the Six began to stop answering their calls. So they turned to Joko and well.... the rest you can discover in the joko fractal.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

Everything is a part of the Mists.I doubt the reason one can not channel a god is because they don't wish to be channeled. Mallyx's echo doesn't wish to be channeled/is offended when mortals borrow the power, yet revenant still do that.

If you think back to Season 1, we would have gotten the "Fall of Abaddon Fractal", if Evon would have won. I'm pretty sure Abaddon himself would have been part of the fractal, so the Mists do remember. So there being "only one, ever present version of the gods" isn't something I buy into. I'd want an Arenanet quote on that, as both Wiki's (which are also player-made and sometimes contain wrong information) don't mention anything about it.

Nonetheless, Balthazar's "light was dimmed" by the others of The Six, he was no longer part of The Six. He probably lost his divinity when the others opposed and chained him in the Mists, the reason why he needed the power of a Bloodstone.

"Despite Balthazar's death, some of his magic survived within Aurene and made his recovered greatsword perceive him through her."~ Toward the bottom of the wiki. It covers events pretty well

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balthazar

Arena-net went through some pretty big hoops to really show-case that balthazar was consumed fully by the dragons; So likely Aurene is the only part of him remaining and as far as I recall I believe that might be a case as to why he can't be channeled. Same with Abbadon due to kormir, likely the only being we'd be able to channel who'd give us the feeling of him would be aurene (Unlikely as we have glint) or his replacement, whomever and whatever that is.

The difference between Mallyx and The six is mallyx is like an Ant in the face of the six; He is just some demon who exists in the mists and reforms when beaten so likely he is alive in the mists somewhere. Trapped in the realm of torment; Likely I believe he can be channeled as he really Isn't that powerful I mean a weaker hero of tyria clapped him with a band of mercenaries in nightfall so he really isn't that strong. Plus the six have "left" meaning likely they have moved through the mists and are now elsewhere, as mist beings they dont leave echos. The Echo of shiro we have for example is an echo of mortal/empowered shiro which is why the jade is there, The full power shiro the envoy/abbadon puppet we don't channel as he is a mist being. Likely its why we don't channel a few other note-worthy characters like Razah whom was born within the mists, much like the six.

It doesn't matter that Balthazar's magic was consumed by Kralkatorrik and Aurene. This isn't about channeling the current Balthazar, but echoes, imprints the Mists recorded of him. Revenant's don't channel the entities directly, but echoes.

Mallyx isn't just "some demon". If Mallyx were, the Mists wouldn't have recorded an echo that revenants can channel. A weaker hero of Tyria with his band and a blind lady in tow also clapped Abaddon with his divinity still in tact, the same can't be said about Balthazar. I also don't want your headcanon, I want actual quotes.

The "Fall of Abaddon"-Fractal we never got still implies they do leave echoes.

Thornwolf.9721 · September 8, 2020

@Raknar.4735 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:Also getting tired of people suggesting Balthazar. As cool as it would be to use a greatsword like Balth does, we can't use him as a legend for the same reasons we can't use Joko, Eir, Trahearne, Vlast, or any of the other characters who have died in "recent events"; they have died in recent events. If a new player were to stumble across someone using "Legendary Marshal stance" or "Legendary Hunter Stance" and notice they were Trahaerne or Eir it would tell them that those two characters are dead before their story gets to that point (talk about spoilers).

We do channel Joko as Legendary Prisoner during the story, while he‘s still around. A legend doesn‘t have to be dead to be channeled.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Prisoner_Stance

Revenants do not commune with the dead, they commune with fully sentient echoes of legendary figures.The entity the echo came from can be dead or alive. In the case of Joko we don‘t commune with the currently active Joko walking around Tyria, but an echo of his former self as a prisoner.

The Legends we use on a daily bases are not simple echos, but the legends themselves. During the point in the story where we do channel Joko it is still unknown whether he'd broken out of the prison before or after we had, but that doesn't change the fact that we only channel him long enough for him to say "Release me!". This is either because it's just an echo or because he's still alive. Mallyx has a voice line "You can't hold me forever!" which implies he is bound to us. The voice lines of all the legends thus far tell that they know they are already dead; this is because we are binding their spirits themselves, not echos.

If it were merely echos we were channeling it would be the same situation as with Joko where we'd only get voice lines from the time in which the echo is being channeled from. Or at best spurts of their power during what ever echo we could find while they were in the mists (Which would limit us to Mallyx during his time in the Realm of torment and Shiro during his time as an Envoy). If it were also as simple as channeling echos to rein in a legends power why is it Anet decided to go with Kalla as the legend for PoF? Why not just channel the echo of Balthazar to fight Balthazar with? Or any of the gods for that matter; Grenth (Ice) or Lyssa (Water) would have been good choices as well. Why not channel Malandru to fight Mordrimoth with during HoT? Because we can't simply channel echos and expect nearly as much power as we get from them. It also wasn't until after we defeated Balthazar and Joko that people started thinking of them as legends to channel simply because that's how it works; they need to be dead and have their spiritual forms residing in the mists.

However, all of that aside, neither of us can really say how exactly Revenants channel their power for sure as it's not specifically stated anywhere how our powers work. Given what we know about the mists via fractals, though, we can say for sure that echos within the mists simply repeat themselves, they do not change. Thus it's harder to believe we can pull any substantial power, or hold any sort of conversation, with mere echos.

https://guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

"The Mists remember what came before, and
echoes of those who left an especially powerful imprint on the world of Tyria
can still be found there.A revenant
calls upon these legendary historical figures
, bringing them back into action to enhance the revenant’s own abilities and power."
"A revenant’s legends are
not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient
, with opinions and personalities of their own."

Not merely echoes, but still, in fact, echoes, as sentient as they may be.Both quotes state they are echoes of those who left an imprint on Tyria.Imprints of their legend the Mists recorded that are still able to form thoughts and have a personality.

Why can't we channel the gods? We barely know anything about them or their "legends". There's a reason many revenants went a scholarly route to unlock hidden powers by studying the legends of old.Why Kalla? Her legend was written down, we know what she did and how she did it. Gorea Halfcut even tells us she's "learning" to invoke Kalla. That's why she knows so much about Kalla, she's learning about every aspect of her to discover new powers.

Like I've said, they are sentient echoes. We don't commune with the actual entity, but a sentient echo version that was imprinted in the mists during a notable event.We channel Joko's former self that was still a prisoner, an imprint in the Mists, hence the name "Legendary Prisoner Stance".

We don't channel Joko that is still walking on Tyria.It isn't the "Legendary King Joko the Inevitable, the last Primeval King, Joko the Undying, the Scourge of Vabbi, Joko the Feared, Joko the Beloved, Joko the Transcendent, and Joko the Eternal Monarch of All Stance", or simply "Legendary Lich Stance".

The reason you can't channel the gods (Balthazar and Abbadon) is because if a god falls, or dies or even exists within the mists themselves they are part of the mists. They don't make ripples no matter what it is they do; Or how they do it. When they die they return to the mists and become one with the mists as its stated in the lore, the reason being that one can-not channel them is because they wish not to be channeled. There is only one, ever present version of the gods and they are the determining factor of who can utilize their font of power. A revenant channeling the power of the six would basically be a dervish, as that was dervishes did and the reason their order fell apart and fell to darkness was because the Six began to stop answering their calls. So they turned to Joko and well.... the rest you can discover in the joko fractal.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

Everything is a part of the Mists.I doubt the reason one can not channel a god is because they don't wish to be channeled. Mallyx's echo doesn't wish to be channeled/is offended when mortals borrow the power, yet revenant still do that.

If you think back to Season 1, we would have gotten the "Fall of Abaddon Fractal", if Evon would have won. I'm pretty sure Abaddon himself would have been part of the fractal, so the Mists do remember. So there being "only one, ever present version of the gods" isn't something I buy into. I'd want an Arenanet quote on that, as both Wiki's (which are also player-made and sometimes contain wrong information) don't mention anything about it.

Nonetheless, Balthazar's "light was dimmed" by the others of The Six, he was no longer part of The Six. He probably lost his divinity when the others opposed and chained him in the Mists, the reason why he needed the power of a Bloodstone.

"Despite Balthazar's death, some of his magic survived within Aurene and made his recovered greatsword perceive him through her."~ Toward the bottom of the wiki. It covers events pretty well

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balthazar

Arena-net went through some pretty big hoops to really show-case that balthazar was consumed fully by the dragons; So likely Aurene is the only part of him remaining and as far as I recall I believe that might be a case as to why he can't be channeled. Same with Abbadon due to kormir, likely the only being we'd be able to channel who'd give us the feeling of him would be aurene (Unlikely as we have glint) or his replacement, whomever and whatever that is.

The difference between Mallyx and The six is mallyx is like an Ant in the face of the six; He is just some demon who exists in the mists and reforms when beaten so likely he is alive in the mists somewhere. Trapped in the realm of torment; Likely I believe he can be channeled as he really Isn't that powerful I mean a weaker hero of tyria clapped him with a band of mercenaries in nightfall so he really isn't that strong. Plus the six have "left" meaning likely they have moved through the mists and are now elsewhere, as mist beings they dont leave echos. The Echo of shiro we have for example is an echo of mortal/empowered shiro which is why the jade is there, The full power shiro the envoy/abbadon puppet we don't channel as he is a mist being. Likely its why we don't channel a few other note-worthy characters like Razah whom was born within the mists, much like the six.

It doesn't matter that Balthazar's magic was consumed by Kralkatorrik and Aurene. This isn't about channeling the current Balthazar, but echoes, imprints the Mists recorded of him. Revenant's don't channel the entities directly, but echoes.

Mallyx isn't just "some demon". If Mallyx were, the Mists wouldn't have recorded an echo that revenants can channel. A weaker hero of Tyria with his band and a blind lady in tow also clapped Abaddon with his divinity still in tact, the same can't be said about Balthazar. I also don't want your headcanon, I want actual quotes.

The "Fall of Abaddon"-Fractal we never got still implies they do leave echoes.

This is true, it implies. But it doesn't exist so its not cannon; I recall reading that the Six don't leave echo's while divine or in divine form. Abbadon likely wasn't what the Fractal would be about it would likely be about the main head of the cult who followed him; Following the events of the crystal desert being turned from the crystal sea which was the product of Balth and Abba fighting. That was indeed a momentous occasion and worthy of being recorded by the mists; But Abbadon ceased to be when kormir consumed him and his essence lives on in her. Like-wise Aurene consumed Abbadon and as the lore has stated ED>Gods which is why the six fled with their tails between their legs; Also Kralk DESTROYED some of the god realms and among them was The fissure of WoE which is now directly tied to tyria. Its not head-cannon when the lore you seek and the excuses you seek don't exist.

"The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.

Razah is one such creation. It has sprung into being a fully-formed adult. It has the knowledge and capabilities of a human, but lacks common sense. As a result, it asks odd questions about human emotions, contemplates human motivations, and attempts to duplicate human mannerisms. Razah is a contradiction: more than human in some ways, and less than human in others. It needs an identity, a personality, and a purpose. Hopefully, it will find its purpose by working with a hero. Otherwise, it could degenerate into an abomination as monstrous and inhuman as its demonic brethren." ~ One of the Direct Quotes dealing with Razah

Razah was born within the mists, and Abbadon took great interest in him because as it states within the quest he did not leave an echo. He was very much like the Six and it perplexed abbadon because everything he knew up until that point was called into question. This leads one to believe that the Six may in their own way be Echos of what once was a person; But is no longer. I actually believe the Six are the Ideal or the Ideals of people who once existed so each of these (If you know warhammer lore) are thought forms given manifest. It would explain their sudden appearance from no where, to where even humans have no record of when they first made contact with the human species. It also makes sense as to why they might not leave an echo for they themselves ARE an echo; Granted this does confirm maybe that we could in theory channel them. But Mallyx was indeed not the strongest demon in Abbadons bag of tricks, he was merely cunning and the real reason that we can channel him is that while we destroyed his physical embodiment we did not destroy him. His essence lingered on and reformed, the mission even brings up how even though he is defeated he is not gone forever. Likely he is in the realm of torment and is stuck there due to his master being gone and kormir likely shutting the way, Its possible he simply is biding his time. The only demon not connected to the mists was Kanaxai whom seemed to be far more of a powerhouse than Mallyx, heck even Varesh was more powerful than mallyx and Abbadon was weak when we fought him. His power restrained and us blessed by ALL SIX GODS to make us immune to his taint, the six literally made it so he couldn't just blow us up from orbit and without their blessing he likely would of one shot us.

He was stronger than the weakened balth that we fought, that is for sure. to be honest I don't have a concrete answer for you because A-net frankly refuses to give any, the abbadon fractal would be enlightening for the lore. But as stated it does not exist nor according to them will ever exist and as such that means for now its not cannon; So that fractal can't be used as a reference point. Plus that was going to happen and come out LONG before the revenant was really concrete and before they likely settled on making an expansion. (They were dead set on never doing expansions, living world was the way... sadly it did not go the way they planned). Regardless I doubt balthazar or the Six will be channeled legends for us on the strict basis that Balth himself was and is a boss in guild wars 2. Likely they wont let us have him due to that alone. As for the rest... well I think we will see the six down the road and that might be why we can't have them. I think honestly the likely hood of an expansion exploring the god realms and what it means to be a god, their origins and so on is very likely now that guild wars utopia has been made cannon via the guild wars 20th anniversary art-book. In which we again hear of the Old gods, true gods, ancient gods and so on. (One of which is Abbadons predecessor and presumably where he got his power from to begin with.)

I do think though if guild wars 3 ever happened.... one of the Six likely would be a huge candidate for a legend if revenant were to return. (We know so little about them, Im just not sure they'd use them as legends.) I want you to think about something really quick. Of the legends we have Kalla is the one we know the least about, and we know a lot about her as he lore is all over the place in GW2. Likely They will set up, flush out and bring up the legend we will be channeling within current events and that makes me think Asgeir is the likely candidate. ONLY because of late we've had huge lore revelations and we even meet his mist echo, we don't just learn of him we actually make contact with him within the mists and watch him haul Jormags fang/tusk. If that is not foreshadowing and setting up a potential revenant legend than I don't know what is...

Raknar.4735 · September 8, 2020

@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:Also getting tired of people suggesting Balthazar. As cool as it would be to use a greatsword like Balth does, we can't use him as a legend for the same reasons we can't use Joko, Eir, Trahearne, Vlast, or any of the other characters who have died in "recent events"; they have died in recent events. If a new player were to stumble across someone using "Legendary Marshal stance" or "Legendary Hunter Stance" and notice they were Trahaerne or Eir it would tell them that those two characters are dead before their story gets to that point (talk about spoilers).

We do channel Joko as Legendary Prisoner during the story, while he‘s still around. A legend doesn‘t have to be dead to be channeled.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Prisoner_Stance

Revenants do not commune with the dead, they commune with fully sentient echoes of legendary figures.The entity the echo came from can be dead or alive. In the case of Joko we don‘t commune with the currently active Joko walking around Tyria, but an echo of his former self as a prisoner.

The Legends we use on a daily bases are not simple echos, but the legends themselves. During the point in the story where we do channel Joko it is still unknown whether he'd broken out of the prison before or after we had, but that doesn't change the fact that we only channel him long enough for him to say "Release me!". This is either because it's just an echo or because he's still alive. Mallyx has a voice line "You can't hold me forever!" which implies he is bound to us. The voice lines of all the legends thus far tell that they know they are already dead; this is because we are binding their spirits themselves, not echos.

If it were merely echos we were channeling it would be the same situation as with Joko where we'd only get voice lines from the time in which the echo is being channeled from. Or at best spurts of their power during what ever echo we could find while they were in the mists (Which would limit us to Mallyx during his time in the Realm of torment and Shiro during his time as an Envoy). If it were also as simple as channeling echos to rein in a legends power why is it Anet decided to go with Kalla as the legend for PoF? Why not just channel the echo of Balthazar to fight Balthazar with? Or any of the gods for that matter; Grenth (Ice) or Lyssa (Water) would have been good choices as well. Why not channel Malandru to fight Mordrimoth with during HoT? Because we can't simply channel echos and expect nearly as much power as we get from them. It also wasn't until after we defeated Balthazar and Joko that people started thinking of them as legends to channel simply because that's how it works; they need to be dead and have their spiritual forms residing in the mists.

However, all of that aside, neither of us can really say how exactly Revenants channel their power for sure as it's not specifically stated anywhere how our powers work. Given what we know about the mists via fractals, though, we can say for sure that echos within the mists simply repeat themselves, they do not change. Thus it's harder to believe we can pull any substantial power, or hold any sort of conversation, with mere echos.

https://guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

"The Mists remember what came before, and
echoes of those who left an especially powerful imprint on the world of Tyria
can still be found there.A revenant
calls upon these legendary historical figures
, bringing them back into action to enhance the revenant’s own abilities and power."
"A revenant’s legends are
not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient
, with opinions and personalities of their own."

Not merely echoes, but still, in fact, echoes, as sentient as they may be.Both quotes state they are echoes of those who left an imprint on Tyria.Imprints of their legend the Mists recorded that are still able to form thoughts and have a personality.

Why can't we channel the gods? We barely know anything about them or their "legends". There's a reason many revenants went a scholarly route to unlock hidden powers by studying the legends of old.Why Kalla? Her legend was written down, we know what she did and how she did it. Gorea Halfcut even tells us she's "learning" to invoke Kalla. That's why she knows so much about Kalla, she's learning about every aspect of her to discover new powers.

Like I've said, they are sentient echoes. We don't commune with the actual entity, but a sentient echo version that was imprinted in the mists during a notable event.We channel Joko's former self that was still a prisoner, an imprint in the Mists, hence the name "Legendary Prisoner Stance".

We don't channel Joko that is still walking on Tyria.It isn't the "Legendary King Joko the Inevitable, the last Primeval King, Joko the Undying, the Scourge of Vabbi, Joko the Feared, Joko the Beloved, Joko the Transcendent, and Joko the Eternal Monarch of All Stance", or simply "Legendary Lich Stance".

The reason you can't channel the gods (Balthazar and Abbadon) is because if a god falls, or dies or even exists within the mists themselves they are part of the mists. They don't make ripples no matter what it is they do; Or how they do it. When they die they return to the mists and become one with the mists as its stated in the lore, the reason being that one can-not channel them is because they wish not to be channeled. There is only one, ever present version of the gods and they are the determining factor of who can utilize their font of power. A revenant channeling the power of the six would basically be a dervish, as that was dervishes did and the reason their order fell apart and fell to darkness was because the Six began to stop answering their calls. So they turned to Joko and well.... the rest you can discover in the joko fractal.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

Everything is a part of the Mists.I doubt the reason one can not channel a god is because they don't wish to be channeled. Mallyx's echo doesn't wish to be channeled/is offended when mortals borrow the power, yet revenant still do that.

If you think back to Season 1, we would have gotten the "Fall of Abaddon Fractal", if Evon would have won. I'm pretty sure Abaddon himself would have been part of the fractal, so the Mists do remember. So there being "only one, ever present version of the gods" isn't something I buy into. I'd want an Arenanet quote on that, as both Wiki's (which are also player-made and sometimes contain wrong information) don't mention anything about it.

Nonetheless, Balthazar's "light was dimmed" by the others of The Six, he was no longer part of The Six. He probably lost his divinity when the others opposed and chained him in the Mists, the reason why he needed the power of a Bloodstone.

"Despite Balthazar's death, some of his magic survived within Aurene and made his recovered greatsword perceive him through her."~ Toward the bottom of the wiki. It covers events pretty well

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balthazar

Arena-net went through some pretty big hoops to really show-case that balthazar was consumed fully by the dragons; So likely Aurene is the only part of him remaining and as far as I recall I believe that might be a case as to why he can't be channeled. Same with Abbadon due to kormir, likely the only being we'd be able to channel who'd give us the feeling of him would be aurene (Unlikely as we have glint) or his replacement, whomever and whatever that is.

The difference between Mallyx and The six is mallyx is like an Ant in the face of the six; He is just some demon who exists in the mists and reforms when beaten so likely he is alive in the mists somewhere. Trapped in the realm of torment; Likely I believe he can be channeled as he really Isn't that powerful I mean a weaker hero of tyria clapped him with a band of mercenaries in nightfall so he really isn't that strong. Plus the six have "left" meaning likely they have moved through the mists and are now elsewhere, as mist beings they dont leave echos. The Echo of shiro we have for example is an echo of mortal/empowered shiro which is why the jade is there, The full power shiro the envoy/abbadon puppet we don't channel as he is a mist being. Likely its why we don't channel a few other note-worthy characters like Razah whom was born within the mists, much like the six.

It doesn't matter that Balthazar's magic was consumed by Kralkatorrik and Aurene. This isn't about channeling the current Balthazar, but echoes, imprints the Mists recorded of him. Revenant's don't channel the entities directly, but echoes.

Mallyx isn't just "some demon". If Mallyx were, the Mists wouldn't have recorded an echo that revenants can channel. A weaker hero of Tyria with his band and a blind lady in tow also clapped Abaddon with his divinity still in tact, the same can't be said about Balthazar. I also don't want your headcanon, I want actual quotes.

The "Fall of Abaddon"-Fractal we never got still implies they do leave echoes.

This is true, it implies. But it doesn't exist so its not cannon; I recall reading that the Six don't leave echo's while divine or in divine form. Abbadon likely wasn't what the Fractal would be about it would likely be about the main head of the cult who followed him; Following the events of the crystal desert being turned from the crystal sea which was the product of Balth and Abba fighting. That was indeed a momentous occasion and worthy of being recorded by the mists; But Abbadon ceased to be when kormir consumed him and his essence lives on in her. Like-wise Aurene consumed Abbadon and as the lore has stated ED>Gods which is why the six fled with their tails between their legs; Also Kralk DESTROYED some of the god realms and among them was The fissure of WoE which is now directly tied to tyria. Its not head-cannon when the lore you seek and the excuses you seek don't exist.

The elections did happen. They're canon, and so are Evon's promises of research into the fractals:https://guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/july-23-2013/

You "recall reading the Six don't leave echo's" but where are the quotes?The Fractal definately would have been about Abaddon. It was called Fall of Abaddon, not "Some cultist of Abaddon, without Abaddon".https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cutthroat_PoliticsNote: This fractal will cover the original fall of Abaddon that took place prior to the events of Guild Wars 1.

"The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.
Razah is one such creation. It has sprung into being a fully-formed adult. It has the knowledge and capabilities of a human, but lacks common sense. As a result, it asks odd questions about human emotions, contemplates human motivations, and attempts to duplicate human mannerisms. Razah is a contradiction: more than human in some ways, and less than human in others. It needs an identity, a personality, and a purpose. Hopefully, it will find its purpose by working with a hero. Otherwise, it could degenerate into an abomination as monstrous and inhuman as its demonic brethren." ~ One of the Direct Quotes dealing with Razah

The Mists creates stuff, we know that. Everything is made by the Mists. Razah is only special to Tyria, but not to the Mists.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Mists

"They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place."

Razah was born within the mists, and Abbadon took great interest in him because as it states within the quest he did not leave an echo. He was very much like the Six and it perplexed abbadon because everything he knew up until that point was called into question. This leads one to believe that the Six may in their own way be Echos of what once was a person; But is no longer. I actually believe the Six are the Ideal or the Ideals of people who once existed so each of these (If you know warhammer lore) are thought forms given manifest. It would explain their sudden appearance from no where, to where even humans have no record of when they first made contact with the human species. It also makes sense as to why they might not leave an echo for they themselves ARE an echo; Granted this does confirm maybe that we could in theory channel them. But Mallyx was indeed not the strongest demon in Abbadons bag of tricks, he was merely cunning and the real reason that we can channel him is that while we destroyed his physical embodiment we did not destroy him. His essence lingered on and reformed, the mission even brings up how even though he is defeated he is not gone forever. Likely he is in the realm of torment and is stuck there due to his master being gone and kormir likely shutting the way, Its possible he simply is biding his time. The only demon not connected to the mists was Kanaxai whom seemed to be far more of a powerhouse than Mallyx, heck even Varesh was more powerful than mallyx and Abbadon was weak when we fought him. His power restrained and us blessed by ALL SIX GODS to make us immune to his taint, the six literally made it so he couldn't just blow us up from orbit and without their blessing he likely would of one shot us.

I want a quote for "Razah doesn't leave an echo".It also seems you don't get what Anet meant by "Echo". Those echoes a revenant channels are only created when something notable happens and the Mists create an imprint of it, so that the event may be recalled by connecting to the Mists.

Varesh stronger lorewise than Mallyx? Please. I actually can't take you serious. But go ahead, show me your references where Arenanet states that.The same goes for Kanaxai. Give me quotes where Mallyx and Kanaxai were compared in power by Arenanet.

He was stronger than the weakened balth that we fought, that is for sure. to be honest I don't have a concrete answer for you because A-net frankly refuses to give any, the abbadon fractal would be enlightening for the lore. But as stated it does not exist nor according to them will ever exist and as such that means for now its not cannon; So that fractal can't be used as a reference point. Plus that was going to happen and come out LONG before the revenant was really concrete and before they likely settled on making an expansion. (They were dead set on never doing expansions, living world was the way... sadly it did not go the way they planned)

Everything about your "God's don't have echoes" headcanon is made up. Please, I beg you, give me concrete evidence. That's all I'm asking for, not paragraphs rambling about nothing.

Justine.6351 · September 8, 2020

Duncan the black with a warhorn.

aspirine.6852 · September 8, 2020

I cant remember it all, but I think Master Togo in the special/bonus mission had a bunch of fun skills. A bit OP and heavy on the cooldowns I think, but they did hit like a truck...

Thornwolf.9721 · September 8, 2020

@Raknar.4735 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:Also getting tired of people suggesting Balthazar. As cool as it would be to use a greatsword like Balth does, we can't use him as a legend for the same reasons we can't use Joko, Eir, Trahearne, Vlast, or any of the other characters who have died in "recent events"; they have died in recent events. If a new player were to stumble across someone using "Legendary Marshal stance" or "Legendary Hunter Stance" and notice they were Trahaerne or Eir it would tell them that those two characters are dead before their story gets to that point (talk about spoilers).

We do channel Joko as Legendary Prisoner during the story, while he‘s still around. A legend doesn‘t have to be dead to be channeled.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Prisoner_Stance

Revenants do not commune with the dead, they commune with fully sentient echoes of legendary figures.The entity the echo came from can be dead or alive. In the case of Joko we don‘t commune with the currently active Joko walking around Tyria, but an echo of his former self as a prisoner.

The Legends we use on a daily bases are not simple echos, but the legends themselves. During the point in the story where we do channel Joko it is still unknown whether he'd broken out of the prison before or after we had, but that doesn't change the fact that we only channel him long enough for him to say "Release me!". This is either because it's just an echo or because he's still alive. Mallyx has a voice line "You can't hold me forever!" which implies he is bound to us. The voice lines of all the legends thus far tell that they know they are already dead; this is because we are binding their spirits themselves, not echos.

If it were merely echos we were channeling it would be the same situation as with Joko where we'd only get voice lines from the time in which the echo is being channeled from. Or at best spurts of their power during what ever echo we could find while they were in the mists (Which would limit us to Mallyx during his time in the Realm of torment and Shiro during his time as an Envoy). If it were also as simple as channeling echos to rein in a legends power why is it Anet decided to go with Kalla as the legend for PoF? Why not just channel the echo of Balthazar to fight Balthazar with? Or any of the gods for that matter; Grenth (Ice) or Lyssa (Water) would have been good choices as well. Why not channel Malandru to fight Mordrimoth with during HoT? Because we can't simply channel echos and expect nearly as much power as we get from them. It also wasn't until after we defeated Balthazar and Joko that people started thinking of them as legends to channel simply because that's how it works; they need to be dead and have their spiritual forms residing in the mists.

However, all of that aside, neither of us can really say how exactly Revenants channel their power for sure as it's not specifically stated anywhere how our powers work. Given what we know about the mists via fractals, though, we can say for sure that echos within the mists simply repeat themselves, they do not change. Thus it's harder to believe we can pull any substantial power, or hold any sort of conversation, with mere echos.

https://guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

"The Mists remember what came before, and
echoes of those who left an especially powerful imprint on the world of Tyria
can still be found there.A revenant
calls upon these legendary historical figures
, bringing them back into action to enhance the revenant’s own abilities and power."
"A revenant’s legends are
not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient
, with opinions and personalities of their own."

Not merely echoes, but still, in fact, echoes, as sentient as they may be.Both quotes state they are echoes of those who left an imprint on Tyria.Imprints of their legend the Mists recorded that are still able to form thoughts and have a personality.

Why can't we channel the gods? We barely know anything about them or their "legends". There's a reason many revenants went a scholarly route to unlock hidden powers by studying the legends of old.Why Kalla? Her legend was written down, we know what she did and how she did it. Gorea Halfcut even tells us she's "learning" to invoke Kalla. That's why she knows so much about Kalla, she's learning about every aspect of her to discover new powers.

Like I've said, they are sentient echoes. We don't commune with the actual entity, but a sentient echo version that was imprinted in the mists during a notable event.We channel Joko's former self that was still a prisoner, an imprint in the Mists, hence the name "Legendary Prisoner Stance".

We don't channel Joko that is still walking on Tyria.It isn't the "Legendary King Joko the Inevitable, the last Primeval King, Joko the Undying, the Scourge of Vabbi, Joko the Feared, Joko the Beloved, Joko the Transcendent, and Joko the Eternal Monarch of All Stance", or simply "Legendary Lich Stance".

The reason you can't channel the gods (Balthazar and Abbadon) is because if a god falls, or dies or even exists within the mists themselves they are part of the mists. They don't make ripples no matter what it is they do; Or how they do it. When they die they return to the mists and become one with the mists as its stated in the lore, the reason being that one can-not channel them is because they wish not to be channeled. There is only one, ever present version of the gods and they are the determining factor of who can utilize their font of power. A revenant channeling the power of the six would basically be a dervish, as that was dervishes did and the reason their order fell apart and fell to darkness was because the Six began to stop answering their calls. So they turned to Joko and well.... the rest you can discover in the joko fractal.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

Everything is a part of the Mists.I doubt the reason one can not channel a god is because they don't wish to be channeled. Mallyx's echo doesn't wish to be channeled/is offended when mortals borrow the power, yet revenant still do that.

If you think back to Season 1, we would have gotten the "Fall of Abaddon Fractal", if Evon would have won. I'm pretty sure Abaddon himself would have been part of the fractal, so the Mists do remember. So there being "only one, ever present version of the gods" isn't something I buy into. I'd want an Arenanet quote on that, as both Wiki's (which are also player-made and sometimes contain wrong information) don't mention anything about it.

Nonetheless, Balthazar's "light was dimmed" by the others of The Six, he was no longer part of The Six. He probably lost his divinity when the others opposed and chained him in the Mists, the reason why he needed the power of a Bloodstone.

"Despite Balthazar's death, some of his magic survived within Aurene and made his recovered greatsword perceive him through her."~ Toward the bottom of the wiki. It covers events pretty well

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balthazar

Arena-net went through some pretty big hoops to really show-case that balthazar was consumed fully by the dragons; So likely Aurene is the only part of him remaining and as far as I recall I believe that might be a case as to why he can't be channeled. Same with Abbadon due to kormir, likely the only being we'd be able to channel who'd give us the feeling of him would be aurene (Unlikely as we have glint) or his replacement, whomever and whatever that is.

The difference between Mallyx and The six is mallyx is like an Ant in the face of the six; He is just some demon who exists in the mists and reforms when beaten so likely he is alive in the mists somewhere. Trapped in the realm of torment; Likely I believe he can be channeled as he really Isn't that powerful I mean a weaker hero of tyria clapped him with a band of mercenaries in nightfall so he really isn't that strong. Plus the six have "left" meaning likely they have moved through the mists and are now elsewhere, as mist beings they dont leave echos. The Echo of shiro we have for example is an echo of mortal/empowered shiro which is why the jade is there, The full power shiro the envoy/abbadon puppet we don't channel as he is a mist being. Likely its why we don't channel a few other note-worthy characters like Razah whom was born within the mists, much like the six.

It doesn't matter that Balthazar's magic was consumed by Kralkatorrik and Aurene. This isn't about channeling the current Balthazar, but echoes, imprints the Mists recorded of him. Revenant's don't channel the entities directly, but echoes.

Mallyx isn't just "some demon". If Mallyx were, the Mists wouldn't have recorded an echo that revenants can channel. A weaker hero of Tyria with his band and a blind lady in tow also clapped Abaddon with his divinity still in tact, the same can't be said about Balthazar. I also don't want your headcanon, I want actual quotes.

The "Fall of Abaddon"-Fractal we never got still implies they do leave echoes.

This is true, it implies. But it doesn't exist so its not cannon; I recall reading that the Six don't leave echo's while divine or in divine form. Abbadon likely wasn't what the Fractal would be about it would likely be about the main head of the cult who followed him; Following the events of the crystal desert being turned from the crystal sea which was the product of Balth and Abba fighting. That was indeed a momentous occasion and worthy of being recorded by the mists; But Abbadon ceased to be when kormir consumed him and his essence lives on in her. Like-wise Aurene consumed Abbadon and as the lore has stated ED>Gods which is why the six fled with their tails between their legs; Also Kralk DESTROYED some of the god realms and among them was The fissure of WoE which is now directly tied to tyria. Its not head-cannon when the lore you seek and the excuses you seek don't exist.

The elections did happen. They're canon, and so are Evon's promises of research into the fractals:

https://guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/july-23-2013/

You "recall reading the Six don't leave echo's" but where are the quotes?The Fractal definately would have been about Abaddon. It was called Fall of Abaddon, not "Some cultist of Abaddon, without Abaddon".

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cutthroat_Politics

Note: This fractal will cover the original fall of Abaddon that took place prior to the events of Guild Wars 1.

"The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.
Razah is one such creation. It has sprung into being a fully-formed adult. It has the knowledge and capabilities of a human, but lacks common sense. As a result, it asks odd questions about human emotions, contemplates human motivations, and attempts to duplicate human mannerisms. Razah is a contradiction: more than human in some ways, and less than human in others. It needs an identity, a personality, and a purpose. Hopefully, it will find its purpose by working with a hero. Otherwise, it could degenerate into an abomination as monstrous and inhuman as its demonic brethren." ~ One of the Direct Quotes dealing with Razah

The Mists creates stuff, we know that. Everything is made by the Mists. Razah is only special to Tyria, but not to the Mists.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Mists

"They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place."

Razah was born within the mists, and Abbadon took great interest in him because as it states within the quest he did not leave an echo. He was very much like the Six and it perplexed abbadon because everything he knew up until that point was called into question. This leads one to believe that the Six may in their own way be Echos of what once was a person; But is no longer. I actually believe the Six are the Ideal or the Ideals of people who once existed so each of these (If you know warhammer lore) are thought forms given manifest. It would explain their sudden appearance from no where, to where even humans have no record of when they first made contact with the human species. It also makes sense as to why they might not leave an echo for they themselves ARE an echo; Granted this does confirm maybe that we could in theory channel them. But Mallyx was indeed not the strongest demon in Abbadons bag of tricks, he was merely cunning and the real reason that we can channel him is that while we destroyed his physical embodiment we did not destroy him. His essence lingered on and reformed, the mission even brings up how even though he is defeated he is not gone forever. Likely he is in the realm of torment and is stuck there due to his master being gone and kormir likely shutting the way, Its possible he simply is biding his time. The only demon not connected to the mists was Kanaxai whom seemed to be far more of a powerhouse than Mallyx, heck even Varesh was more powerful than mallyx and Abbadon was weak when we fought him. His power restrained and us blessed by ALL SIX GODS to make us immune to his taint, the six literally made it so he couldn't just blow us up from orbit and without their blessing he likely would of one shot us.

I want a quote for "Razah doesn't leave an echo".It also seems you don't get what Anet meant by "Echo". Those echoes a revenant channels are only created when something notable happens and the Mists create an imprint of it, so that the event may be recalled by connecting to the Mists.

Varesh stronger lorewise than Mallyx? Please. I actually can't take you serious. But go ahead, show me your references where Arenanet states that.The same goes for Kanaxai. Give me quotes where Mallyx and Kanaxai were compared in power by Arenanet.

He was stronger than the weakened balth that we fought, that is for sure. to be honest I don't have a concrete answer for you because A-net frankly refuses to give any, the abbadon fractal would be enlightening for the lore. But as stated it does not exist nor according to them will ever exist and as such that means for now its not cannon; So that fractal can't be used as a reference point. Plus that was going to happen and come out LONG before the revenant was really concrete and before they likely settled on making an expansion. (They were dead set on never doing expansions, living world was the way... sadly it did not go the way they planned). Regardless I doubt balthazar or the Six will be channeled legends for us on the strict basis that Balth himself was and is a boss in guild wars 2. Likely they wont let us have him due to that alone. As for the rest... well I think we will see the six down the road and that might be why we can't have them. I think honestly the likely hood of an expansion exploring the god realms and what it means to be a god, their origins and so on is very likely now that guild wars utopia has been made cannon via the guild wars 20th anniversary art-book. In which we again hear of the Old gods, true gods, ancient gods and so on. (One of which is Abbadons predecessor and presumably where he got his power from to begin with.)

Everything about your "God's don't have echoes" headcanon is made up. Please, I beg you, give me concrete evidence. That's all I'm asking for, not paragraphs rambling about nothing.

So as I Stated I have no concrete evidence as A-net has not gone either way and confirmed anything. I ordered the 20th aniversary art book a week ago, when it arrives I shall take screen-shots and see what it says as it is a lore as well as art book. In it will be a lot of closure for many things which is exactly why I ordered it; Head-cannon or not I do remember there being a discussion about it where there was some statements made about this topic. Where, when and how I can find these I dont remember as I cant recall where it was. The Abbadon fractal does not exist, it never came out and will never come out. I never said abbadon would not be there but that we would not directly engage with him; Rather we would be boots on the ground for him. I REALLY doubt they'd let us fight him again, likely it would be us (His cultists) against the Zaishen who follow balth. I don't believe it would go much differently than the joko fractal; And they've said numerous times that the abbadon fractal is not and will not come out so until they open their closed lips about it as far as im concerned its non-canon unless specifically stated otherwise. As for the Echos and what they are, no I know what they are exactly. Prime example is Envoy shiro, the shiro we fight TWICE in Guild wars 1 is not the same shiro we are channeling; Clearly based on skill set and the fact that jade is a huge premise of his theme. As He again NEVER USES JADE in any of his encounters; Which means to me the shiro we channel is either the one who died at harvest temple (The only real likely candidate) and is an echo of that event when he was empowered by the death of the emperor he slew just before his demise. Remember we purify shiro in the mists, in the realm of torment in nightfall as a bonus quest once we find out abbadon corrupted his soul. So the shiro we channel if it were current day shiro; Modern day purified likely an envoy again shiro would be a completely different beast than the one we channel now.

I also likely assume that Ventari is only part of the legend we channel due to the tablet, as honestly we didn't see him do anything. And his legend is all about the rock he wrote on and not him as a person. But I dont think we will channel the six, and you my friend need to get over that because they wont allow it and I highly doubt we will see a legend based around the Six. Its not rambling when I agree with you on several points that the fractal, and the lack of lore AROUND the six as we actually know jack about them could lead to a potential legend. But it wont be balthazar, and it wont likely be his replacement as we dont know who that is. Likewise I doubt it would be Menzies as I am pretty sure he is dead "The fate of menzies" torch which is a skull attatched too it is pretty telling. I don't believe the Six actually leave normal echos I guess is a better word as they come from the mists and like Mallyx is a mist being. The rest of the cast which we channel were not, glint being an exception as im not sure if she was tethered to the mists prior to her death as like a "She can totes use the mist" As in the norn personal story several shamans say the sons of svanir should not be able to enter or channel the mists as dragon minions and by proxy dragons cant. Kralk only gained the ability once he had consumed the essence of balthazar as did aurene, ontop of that his sword Recognized aurene as Balthazar which means that he for all intents and purposes was consumed.

Kralk also consumed most if not all of the fissure of woe and Aurenes full form is in the mists while her consciousness is on tyria helping us deal with jormag; So with all that said Balth is likely dead and gone. Now could a echo of Pre-god balthazar exist for example durring the time that he struck his father down? That is indeed likely as balth was originally a demi-god as was grenth, both of which were usurpers and both of which likely left echos prior to their ascension to dvinity. Im honestly going to go look through woodenpotates youtube as I am fairly sure that his content is where I heard about the six; And as close as he once was to a-net and as much of a lore nerd (More than I) as he was Id take his word for it. Ill see if I can find the quotes or clips, but I make no promises as its been a long time Infact it might be in one of his Q'n'A Sessions of which im not about to spend hours sifting through.

Clearly friend its you who doesn't know what they are talking about, All this hype of balth and for what? A greatsword and his animations with fire damage, if you want to be a guardian its there mate? Nothing stopping you. As much as I think it might be neat I REALLY DOUBT a character who died recently will be a legend, because if indeed those characters are up for grabs than there are several who likely will come infront of balth. Besides that whats to stop us from channeling dead elder dragons? Do they go to the mists? Oh thats right we have no freaking clue what happens when they die, not truly. Just like the gods. So your head-cannon is just as much head-cannon as "mine" is when it comes right down to it. We dont know. They've never come out and said either way and all we are doing is arguing because neither will budge, Like I said above Ill look for where I heard that quote. And Ill take screenshots if I find anything when that book arrives; However Im not about to argue with a self-important know it all who claims to have all this insight.

"After Balthazar's death, Kralkatorrik and Aurene absorbed the former god's rampant magic, which consisted of the magic of the Maguuma Bloodstone as well as some of the magic of Primordus and Jormag. Newly empowered, the Crystal Dragon flew across the desert once again, carving a new Dragonbrand in his wake."https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kralkatorrik

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facet_of_Fire_and_War

The quote and the existence of the face of fire and war showcase that balth was still intune with the mists; SO much so infact that he handed off the ability for kralk to go into the mists which now seems to have carried over to jormag. So no I believe he was fully and wholly consumed along with his realm, and the only way you could channel anything close to him would be to channel the replacement. (We dont even know who that is, just that kormir says he had basically been replaced.) Again I believe they are setting up for an expansion to put this to bed; You might not like that answer but its there. Im sorry but if we could channel the six why would we even channel the legends we do now? The six likely would roflstomp all of our legends we channel currently outside of maybe glint, maybe. Not only would it be a major plot-hole but it would also remove the tension as to why the six have abandoned us. So piss off while I go look for this quote, after that I suggest we move on and stop replying to one another before we both get banned from the forums due to becoming "toxic" and "not nice".

SoftFootpaws.9134 · September 8, 2020

As nice as it is to think about this, we already directly have Shiro from Cantha.

And we all know the next legend is going to either be Balthazar or Joko. I'd say its most likely going to be Joko, as while Balth would be very nice, the Rev already has existing legends similar to that and a Lich would be something entirely new.

Necro Rev, anyone?

Sobx.1758 · September 8, 2020

@Lily.1935 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:
@Lily.1935 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:What Revenants are doing is technically "necromancy" in that they are communing with the dead, but they then take it further by pulling their power directly from the mists; something Necromancers don't do.

Well, that's not quite true. The necromancer is pulling magic from the mists. As far as we can tell, much of their magic is using the threads of death connecting Tyria to the underworld and realm of torment to fuel their magic. What we see in game isn't quite expressed too clearly so we can only speculate based on in game descriptions and evidence given to us by characters and lore.

Necromancy seems to have a connection to the realm of torment and underworld which you can tell by looking at their minions.

Stygian

, which are partially formed Demon spawn look identical to the minions the necromancer summons. It would seem that the energies the necromancer is calling on are from the mists, a specific part of the mists but this is speculation. But it can't be ruled out that the necromancer's magic isn't connected to the mists because there is evidence that it most certainly is.

Ghastly Breach

the scourge elite is "breaching" the realm of torment as the skill describes it. So they are able to pull directly from the mists in cannon. How much of their magic requires this connection to the underworld and realm of torment? I'm not entirely sure.

Necromancers have more questions than answers. As do Revenants. It would be nice to explore both of their respective magics further.

Though I do agree there are more questions than answers when it comes to the mists and death magic and how exactly they differ. Stygians and minions are not the same. Lore wise minions are simply animated corpses; they are not summoned from another realm. They are made up of the bits and pieces of broken bodies around them, nothing more. The reason they look the same is most likely due to them not wanting to make new assets. It does throw me off, though, when they introduce skills like Ghastly Torment, and even Shadow Fiend, which do both directly connect to the mists (seemingly in the case of Fiend, though this could also just be a ball of condensed death magic). As you say; anything we can come up for these would simply be speculation.

Minions are not reanimate in gw2 but called from the mists. Trahearne calls several from the mists directly in the story. And talks about controlling them and the difficulties in doing that.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Minion"A minion is an undead servant."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead"Undead refers to creatures that have been killed and later reanimated by magical means, often practiced by necromancers. In most cases reanimated undead do not retain their original soul and as such they are bound to the will of a master—the spellcaster who brought the creature into undeath—and would usually be useless without one, either perishing along their master or continuing to wander without purpose."

Sounds pretty "reanimate" to me. :D

Visual evidence in Guild wars 1 shows that the Spirits need to be physically bound to Tyria to for Ritualists to control them and for Revenant it expresses in game how the revenant is fighting for control. The Scourge says "Come and do my bidding" which suggests that Shades have some level of autonomy of their own.

tbh I also fail to see the connection between someone saying "come and do my bidding" and an entity "having some level of autonomy of their own". Doesn't sound like there's any other option or even space for free will.

Vyriis.6258 · September 8, 2020

@"Lily.1935" said:I'm kind geeking out a bit sorry. And thank you for listening.Geek away. I love discussing lore and issue within it.Ho boy do I want to see these magics explored more. Most of what I say is my speculation on how it works. Some of it isn't but it's all based in my in game knowledge.Same, on both accounts. Was a Rit main in GW1 and have been a Rev main since it came out. The mists, being both the afterlife and seemingly the connection of the uni/multiverse, has always intrigued me. Most of what we can do is speculate until solid evidence comes out and rely on each other to fill in the gaps when we miss something.

On that note, though, I don't really want to keep discussing this on a thread that has been hi-jacked and derailed. >.> If a moderator could maybe move the conversations that went from "Next legend and weapon" to "who exactly uses the mists and what do Revenants actually channel" to the lore section I'd be happy to continue discussing.

Raknar.4735 · September 8, 2020

@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Thornwolf.9721 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:
@Raknar.4735 said:
@Vyriis.6258 said:Also getting tired of people suggesting Balthazar. As cool as it would be to use a greatsword like Balth does, we can't use him as a legend for the same reasons we can't use Joko, Eir, Trahearne, Vlast, or any of the other characters who have died in "recent events"; they have died in recent events. If a new player were to stumble across someone using "Legendary Marshal stance" or "Legendary Hunter Stance" and notice they were Trahaerne or Eir it would tell them that those two characters are dead before their story gets to that point (talk about spoilers).

We do channel Joko as Legendary Prisoner during the story, while he‘s still around. A legend doesn‘t have to be dead to be channeled.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Prisoner_Stance

Revenants do not commune with the dead, they commune with fully sentient echoes of legendary figures.The entity the echo came from can be dead or alive. In the case of Joko we don‘t commune with the currently active Joko walking around Tyria, but an echo of his former self as a prisoner.

The Legends we use on a daily bases are not simple echos, but the legends themselves. During the point in the story where we do channel Joko it is still unknown whether he'd broken out of the prison before or after we had, but that doesn't change the fact that we only channel him long enough for him to say "Release me!". This is either because it's just an echo or because he's still alive. Mallyx has a voice line "You can't hold me forever!" which implies he is bound to us. The voice lines of all the legends thus far tell that they know they are already dead; this is because we are binding their spirits themselves, not echos.

If it were merely echos we were channeling it would be the same situation as with Joko where we'd only get voice lines from the time in which the echo is being channeled from. Or at best spurts of their power during what ever echo we could find while they were in the mists (Which would limit us to Mallyx during his time in the Realm of torment and Shiro during his time as an Envoy). If it were also as simple as channeling echos to rein in a legends power why is it Anet decided to go with Kalla as the legend for PoF? Why not just channel the echo of Balthazar to fight Balthazar with? Or any of the gods for that matter; Grenth (Ice) or Lyssa (Water) would have been good choices as well. Why not channel Malandru to fight Mordrimoth with during HoT? Because we can't simply channel echos and expect nearly as much power as we get from them. It also wasn't until after we defeated Balthazar and Joko that people started thinking of them as legends to channel simply because that's how it works; they need to be dead and have their spiritual forms residing in the mists.

However, all of that aside, neither of us can really say how exactly Revenants channel their power for sure as it's not specifically stated anywhere how our powers work. Given what we know about the mists via fractals, though, we can say for sure that echos within the mists simply repeat themselves, they do not change. Thus it's harder to believe we can pull any substantial power, or hold any sort of conversation, with mere echos.

https://guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

"The Mists remember what came before, and
echoes of those who left an especially powerful imprint on the world of Tyria
can still be found there.A revenant
calls upon these legendary historical figures
, bringing them back into action to enhance the revenant’s own abilities and power."
"A revenant’s legends are
not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient
, with opinions and personalities of their own."

Not merely echoes, but still, in fact, echoes, as sentient as they may be.Both quotes state they are echoes of those who left an imprint on Tyria.Imprints of their legend the Mists recorded that are still able to form thoughts and have a personality.

Why can't we channel the gods? We barely know anything about them or their "legends". There's a reason many revenants went a scholarly route to unlock hidden powers by studying the legends of old.Why Kalla? Her legend was written down, we know what she did and how she did it. Gorea Halfcut even tells us she's "learning" to invoke Kalla. That's why she knows so much about Kalla, she's learning about every aspect of her to discover new powers.

Like I've said, they are sentient echoes. We don't commune with the actual entity, but a sentient echo version that was imprinted in the mists during a notable event.We channel Joko's former self that was still a prisoner, an imprint in the Mists, hence the name "Legendary Prisoner Stance".

We don't channel Joko that is still walking on Tyria.It isn't the "Legendary King Joko the Inevitable, the last Primeval King, Joko the Undying, the Scourge of Vabbi, Joko the Feared, Joko the Beloved, Joko the Transcendent, and Joko the Eternal Monarch of All Stance", or simply "Legendary Lich Stance".

The reason you can't channel the gods (Balthazar and Abbadon) is because if a god falls, or dies or even exists within the mists themselves they are part of the mists. They don't make ripples no matter what it is they do; Or how they do it. When they die they return to the mists and become one with the mists as its stated in the lore, the reason being that one can-not channel them is because they wish not to be channeled. There is only one, ever present version of the gods and they are the determining factor of who can utilize their font of power. A revenant channeling the power of the six would basically be a dervish, as that was dervishes did and the reason their order fell apart and fell to darkness was because the Six began to stop answering their calls. So they turned to Joko and well.... the rest you can discover in the joko fractal.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

Everything is a part of the Mists.I doubt the reason one can not channel a god is because they don't wish to be channeled. Mallyx's echo doesn't wish to be channeled/is offended when mortals borrow the power, yet revenant still do that.

If you think back to Season 1, we would have gotten the "Fall of Abaddon Fractal", if Evon would have won. I'm pretty sure Abaddon himself would have been part of the fractal, so the Mists do remember. So there being "only one, ever present version of the gods" isn't something I buy into. I'd want an Arenanet quote on that, as both Wiki's (which are also player-made and sometimes contain wrong information) don't mention anything about it.

Nonetheless, Balthazar's "light was dimmed" by the others of The Six, he was no longer part of The Six. He probably lost his divinity when the others opposed and chained him in the Mists, the reason why he needed the power of a Bloodstone.

"Despite Balthazar's death, some of his magic survived within Aurene and made his recovered greatsword perceive him through her."~ Toward the bottom of the wiki. It covers events pretty well

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balthazar

Arena-net went through some pretty big hoops to really show-case that balthazar was consumed fully by the dragons; So likely Aurene is the only part of him remaining and as far as I recall I believe that might be a case as to why he can't be channeled. Same with Abbadon due to kormir, likely the only being we'd be able to channel who'd give us the feeling of him would be aurene (Unlikely as we have glint) or his replacement, whomever and whatever that is.

The difference between Mallyx and The six is mallyx is like an Ant in the face of the six; He is just some demon who exists in the mists and reforms when beaten so likely he is alive in the mists somewhere. Trapped in the realm of torment; Likely I believe he can be channeled as he really Isn't that powerful I mean a weaker hero of tyria clapped him with a band of mercenaries in nightfall so he really isn't that strong. Plus the six have "left" meaning likely they have moved through the mists and are now elsewhere, as mist beings they dont leave echos. The Echo of shiro we have for example is an echo of mortal/empowered shiro which is why the jade is there, The full power shiro the envoy/abbadon puppet we don't channel as he is a mist being. Likely its why we don't channel a few other note-worthy characters like Razah whom was born within the mists, much like the six.

It doesn't matter that Balthazar's magic was consumed by Kralkatorrik and Aurene. This isn't about channeling the current Balthazar, but echoes, imprints the Mists recorded of him. Revenant's don't channel the entities directly, but echoes.

Mallyx isn't just "some demon". If Mallyx were, the Mists wouldn't have recorded an echo that revenants can channel. A weaker hero of Tyria with his band and a blind lady in tow also clapped Abaddon with his divinity still in tact, the same can't be said about Balthazar. I also don't want your headcanon, I want actual quotes.

The "Fall of Abaddon"-Fractal we never got still implies they do leave echoes.

This is true, it implies. But it doesn't exist so its not cannon; I recall reading that the Six don't leave echo's while divine or in divine form. Abbadon likely wasn't what the Fractal would be about it would likely be about the main head of the cult who followed him; Following the events of the crystal desert being turned from the crystal sea which was the product of Balth and Abba fighting. That was indeed a momentous occasion and worthy of being recorded by the mists; But Abbadon ceased to be when kormir consumed him and his essence lives on in her. Like-wise Aurene consumed Abbadon and as the lore has stated ED>Gods which is why the six fled with their tails between their legs; Also Kralk DESTROYED some of the god realms and among them was The fissure of WoE which is now directly tied to tyria. Its not head-cannon when the lore you seek and the excuses you seek don't exist.

The elections did happen. They're canon, and so are Evon's promises of research into the fractals:

https://guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/july-23-2013/

You "recall reading the Six don't leave echo's" but where are the quotes?The Fractal definately would have been about Abaddon. It was called Fall of Abaddon, not "Some cultist of Abaddon, without Abaddon".

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cutthroat_Politics

Note: This fractal will cover the original fall of Abaddon that took place prior to the events of Guild Wars 1.

"The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.
Razah is one such creation. It has sprung into being a fully-formed adult. It has the knowledge and capabilities of a human, but lacks common sense. As a result, it asks odd questions about human emotions, contemplates human motivations, and attempts to duplicate human mannerisms. Razah is a contradiction: more than human in some ways, and less than human in others. It needs an identity, a personality, and a purpose. Hopefully, it will find its purpose by working with a hero. Otherwise, it could degenerate into an abomination as monstrous and inhuman as its demonic brethren." ~ One of the Direct Quotes dealing with Razah

The Mists creates stuff, we know that. Everything is made by the Mists. Razah is only special to Tyria, but not to the Mists.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Mists

"They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place."

Razah was born within the mists, and Abbadon took great interest in him because as it states within the quest he did not leave an echo. He was very much like the Six and it perplexed abbadon because everything he knew up until that point was called into question. This leads one to believe that the Six may in their own way be Echos of what once was a person; But is no longer. I actually believe the Six are the Ideal or the Ideals of people who once existed so each of these (If you know warhammer lore) are thought forms given manifest. It would explain their sudden appearance from no where, to where even humans have no record of when they first made contact with the human species. It also makes sense as to why they might not leave an echo for they themselves ARE an echo; Granted this does confirm maybe that we could in theory channel them. But Mallyx was indeed not the strongest demon in Abbadons bag of tricks, he was merely cunning and the real reason that we can channel him is that while we destroyed his physical embodiment we did not destroy him. His essence lingered on and reformed, the mission even brings up how even though he is defeated he is not gone forever. Likely he is in the realm of torment and is stuck there due to his master being gone and kormir likely shutting the way, Its possible he simply is biding his time. The only demon not connected to the mists was Kanaxai whom seemed to be far more of a powerhouse than Mallyx, heck even Varesh was more powerful than mallyx and Abbadon was weak when we fought him. His power restrained and us blessed by ALL SIX GODS to make us immune to his taint, the six literally made it so he couldn't just blow us up from orbit and without their blessing he likely would of one shot us.

I want a quote for "Razah doesn't leave an echo".It also seems you don't get what Anet meant by "Echo". Those echoes a revenant channels are only created when something notable happens and the Mists create an imprint of it, so that the event may be recalled by connecting to the Mists.

Varesh stronger lorewise than Mallyx? Please. I actually can't take you serious. But go ahead, show me your references where Arenanet states that.The same goes for Kanaxai. Give me quotes where Mallyx and Kanaxai were compared in power by Arenanet.

He was stronger than the weakened balth that we fought, that is for sure. to be honest I don't have a concrete answer for you because A-net frankly refuses to give any, the abbadon fractal would be enlightening for the lore. But as stated it does not exist nor according to them will ever exist and as such that means for now its not cannon; So that fractal can't be used as a reference point. Plus that was going to happen and come out LONG before the revenant was really concrete and before they likely settled on making an expansion. (They were dead set on never doing expansions, living world was the way... sadly it did not go the way they planned). Regardless I doubt balthazar or the Six will be channeled legends for us on the strict basis that Balth himself was and is a boss in guild wars 2. Likely they wont let us have him due to that alone. As for the rest... well I think we will see the six down the road and that might be why we can't have them. I think honestly the likely hood of an expansion exploring the god realms and what it means to be a god, their origins and so on is very likely now that guild wars utopia has been made cannon via the guild wars 20th anniversary art-book. In which we again hear of the Old gods, true gods, ancient gods and so on. (One of which is Abbadons predecessor and presumably where he got his power from to begin with.)

Everything about your "God's don't have echoes" headcanon is made up. Please, I beg you, give me concrete evidence. That's all I'm asking for, not paragraphs rambling about nothing.Clearly friend its you who doesn't know what they are talking about, All this hype of balth and for what? A greatsword and his animations with fire damage, if you want to be a guardian its there mate? Nothing stopping you. As much as I think it might be neat I REALLY DOUBT a character who died recently will be a legend, because if indeed those characters are up for grabs than there are several who likely will come infront of balth. Besides that whats to stop us from channeling dead elder dragons? Do they go to the mists? Oh thats right we have no freaking clue what happens when they die, not truly. Just like the gods. So your head-cannon is just as much head-cannon as "mine" is when it comes right down to it. We dont know. They've never come out and said either way and all we are doing is arguing because neither will budge, Like I said above Ill look for where I heard that quote. And Ill take screenshots if I find anything when that book arrives; However Im not about to argue with a self-important know it all who claims to have all this insight.

"After Balthazar's death, Kralkatorrik and Aurene absorbed the former god's rampant magic, which consisted of the magic of the Maguuma Bloodstone as well as some of the magic of Primordus and Jormag. Newly empowered, the Crystal Dragon flew across the desert once again, carving a new Dragonbrand in his wake."

You really don't get what the echoes actually are. That you still think the absorption of Balthazars magic by Kralkatorrik and Aurene actually matter to the Mists in terms of what it imprints and what a revenant can channel tells me that.

It's strange for me to see that you correctly understand the legends and echoes in terms of Shiro, his legend being about the Jade Wind that completely changed Cantha and Ventari, where the Tablet plays a bigger role than the centaur himself, as it guided an entire race, yet you don't get how the echo would work for Balthazar, by saying that the absorption has a significance to his past legend.You even said something about The Six possibly being echoes themselves (how did that theory even start???), when there has to be a central event of significance for the Mists to imprint it.

I also don't care if Balthazar is the legend, another one of The Six or if it is Asgeir or Svanir, Torivos, Kanaxai (unlikely, unless Anet explores his connection to the Mists), Varesh, the Naga priestess that saved her race, or anyone else for that matter (aside from Togo, as I don't think we'll get another Human from Cantha which would indeed be boring).If i'd had to take a guess, Svanir and the legend of the Nornbear is the most likely candidate for the next legend. He had a huge impact on Norn society, being the one responsible for the creation of the Sons of Svanir due to his legend.

I was merely stating that Balthazar is a possibility. He's even more likely now after his death, since the Zaishen are on our side now and will share stories that were passed down for generations. They must know more than many, they even knew about Lazarus being Balthazar before it was revealed to us (Zaishen disguised as white mantle, see Bloodstone Fen cinematics). To channel a legend you'll have to know about their past deeds and a significant event they were a key part in, after all.

You were the one saying gods can't be legends by bringing in lore, that as far as I'm concerned I've never seen stated by Arenanet anywhere, about the Mists not being able to reconstruct the actions of The Six.And for some reason you want to spin this around by saying I want one of The Six as a legend, when that has never been the case.

I give up. The difference between your headcanon and what you call out as my "headcanon" is that everything I've said is stated in Arenanet's own blogs and lore and isn't unfounded, as I've always backed up my claims with the sources.

Aeolus.3615 · September 22, 2020

Its hard to tell wich legend Rev will have theres so many easy candidates >_>We have, 2 from EOTN zone, Dwarf King and Pyre grandaugther(Kalla).Tyria Core: GlintFactions: ShiroAsurans: keep it this way for now, we need GS no asuras for now, maybe next after cantha must be an tech mist guy.

My candidates:Another dragon, Celestial Dragon has a offensive mobility GS theme https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/TahmuNika and Vizu for dual daggers elite spec, mother and daugther legends swomething like that.Kaineng Tah the 1st emperor would be a good candidate for GS and ghostly infusion meditation based, he is back to put thing in order >_>Turai for another GS user hif i recall he was a norn in the tyrian desert. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Turai_Ossa,Kanaxai if we are getting ad main hand axe: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kanaxai (ewww main axe lol) altough I feel more we will have it in LS or fractal or RAID...URgoz for Longbow, I am more betting on urgoz raid as well rathe than become somethign else.

note: for those who are missing lore on factions: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

What Canthan themed legend would you like to see?

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