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Can we stop the whole "Selling 100CM DwD/DoD Title" or "Selling Raid titles/achievments"


GHawkR.7231

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Since the day I got into the end PvE content and the moment I opened LFG to look for PuGs I can join to consume the content, I was hit with this obnoxious amount of squads/parties of players saying that they are selling everything you ant, just for a mere 300MC.. Anyway, I am deviating.The main reason I am writing this down, it's because with the recent fractal update, the LFG is overfilled with more pugs selling you the title instead of doing the content, and I would like to read an answer from a dev saying that "Selling titles on LFG is ok and we fully endorse this". I am lucky I never went down the rabbit hole and joined or bought myself a place in end-game content, and at this point I never will.I have found for myself a way to deal with this, mainly by blocking the players in that party/squad and writing "LFG Seller or LFG Spammer". But, players who will join after Steam release, will stumble upon this, and will get a wrong impression about endgame, like some of my friends had in the past. And this is very good scam for others to profit upon smbd else's lack of knowledge because they are new players in this game aspect.

I hope the post won't get too hateful towards me or others who think like me, nor do I incline that players who are involved in such schemes should be banned. What I want to achieve with this post is to know if LFG Sellers are fully right when they start selling such titles/achievs to other players. Let's keep it a healthy discussion with good argument pro- or against this!

P.S. I have stumbles upon an argument that this whole LFG Selling thing is targeted for veteran players with tons of AP and gold, who just want to get the achievement done, but I am not buying into this, because: 1.veteran AP hunter players have a community of their own with whom they do this achiev w/o needing to spend tons of gold on 1 achiev; 2.veteran players are also on other platform outside the game where they can easier get a team of like-minded players together and go for the achiev.

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Ppl train. Play much. Get skilled and then use the skill they gained and get profit by it by using these skills to give ppl without this skills (usually). Its giving service by getting currency. Idk which part of it isnt allowed.The only problem with these achivments is that they usually come with some titles that hold skill value of the players.And with selling these titles to others the community will no longer accepts most of these titles as skill indicator and they lose all skill valueAnyway selling raids/fractal achivments cost more than most ppl could even think about as most of us arent rich enough to purchase themThese LFGs can mislead and make misunderstandings about gw2 endgame pve for new players. But who cares... very little amount of gw2 pve players ever come to learn end gameAnd raids developments has been stopped so nothing will probably done with it. Doesnt matter if its ok or not.But well if u arent willing to learn and spend time on endgame but want the achives then just buy it after farming for ages :L

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What is the most ridiculous is that the devs said that KP is discriminatory and people should use titles to select their teammates/check skill, while they don't care about title sellers. Now titles mean nothing to me, and we will still ask KP as the only viable tool to make the fractal lfg work.

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I think you schold find guild for that activitis

pugs are only for ppl that lack role in guild, so thay need someone from outside of guild to fill up a role like it is with raids

Many ppl are not aware of it, and guild for them is only for collecting nodes from guild hall, what is wrong :/

Ask on lion arch "lf guild that do cm, or cm trainings"

you no need any kp or titles that way

only ppl that have social distancing pay for that

remowing of kp, was one of way to force ppl to group up with small communitis, insted only using lfg, and having bad experience with ppl that don't know you (as cuz of no bounds, thay not feel that much regret to remove you from party)

At last it's how in other games work, i noticed in gw2 ppl are more of guild-less and use pug insted

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@Mini Crinny.6190 said:Maybe if they made content that can't be soloed in under a week it might be possibleLike Dhuum CM? Like that helped...

More seriously, if Anet were to do a 5-man content that can't be 4-manned, or 10-man content that can't be 8/9-manned, that content would probably be impossible to complete even for a majority of so called hardcore players.

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I'm all for people being able to sell their skills to make a profit, I have to agree with OP here, the LFG spam is obnoxious on some occasions ive seen more sell posts that actual pug groups. they should either add a seperate section for sell groups or outlaw advertisement on the LFG,

The LFG is supposed to be a tool for finding other players to do the content with not a brochure.

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@"GHawkR.7231" said:But, players who will join after Steam release, will stumble upon this, and will get a wrong impression about endgame

Well if they act upon the sellers by disallowing/outlawing selling then players that join after Steam release will see an empty LFG instead. Because those players doing all the selling, can finish the content by themselves just fine, it's not like they will open "all welcome" groups and allow everyone in their groups for free. So there is a choice here, which is worse: an LFG without sellers, or an LFG with sellers, the number of non-selling groups won't change either way.

And this is very good scam for others to profit upon smbd else's lack of knowledge because they are new players in this game aspect.

Talking about scam, before the LFG existed, groups were selling dungeon paths. Instead of doing the selling from the LFG (if it's outlawed) they'll simply make any listing they like, and THEN ask for payment once players join. Or even worse, demand the payment on the last boss and go afk unless paid. It did happen to me in Arah back on release, some weirdos going afk at Simin, and I must say those were wonderful scam times. Then it will depend if the scammers/sellers will have the majority in the group or not.

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Buying and selling of runs has existed since GW1's droknar runs. As long as there are players struggling with some of the content, there are people willing to capitalize on it. Perhaps a player just wants the completion, and isn't interested in actually doing the content? Perhaps a player is physically unable to complete the content, but still wants to see it completed? I can think of plenty of legitimate reasons why a player might want to bypass the struggle of doing the content themselves. If other players are willing to do that for them, in return for a compensation, then that is alright with me. I'm glad such options exist for those players.

But be aware that when you hand players gold for services not yet provided, you have no guarantee they won't just run off with your gold. Don't expect Anet to intervene on behalf of you, your poor investments and poor judgement.

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I came back to GW2 after a long time, with a new account so I can experience everything anew.And out of boredom I scrolled around the forum during my train ride and I noticed how often I read that "New players might be deterred by XY". Or Steam players.I ask myself, is this really true, or is it just something that people say lately, because they know that their arguments are not exactly ... are not exactly stable.I've played a few MMO's and if an MMO is good, not even real China bots could keep new players away (as long as they don't take over, but then it's usually not a well-run MMO anymore, therefore).But there is always talk about content and about how others play.I don't understand how the gameplay of others influences you as long as they don't hack?I know that forums are not the best place for meaningful discussions. But I had GW2 as a super cute game, with a nice community in mind and I thought how that would be reflected in the forums.

But I have to say, what would deter me as a newbie or a returning player, are all those forum posts that express their opinion that content XY or gameplay XY might discourage new players.Well, well... my first and last forum post :D. Have a nice day.

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Ahh yes in game capitalism prevails. I guess like anet, I'm neutral on the matter. Let people play the game they want, as long as it's not hacking or cheating. If some people spend money on gems and convert it to gold to pay for raids/fractals, let em be. It's their choice if they want to take the easy route /shrug.

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@"Mad Queen Malafide.7512" said:Buying and selling of runs has existed since GW1's droknar runs.

Droknar runs where imo very different though. It wasn't about invalidating endgame achievements for exorbitant prices or anything like that, but just a small fee to have alt characters ferried into "endgame" to buy max level gear etc., to skip having to do all the story on every character just to get them geared and ready/catched up with your mains.

At least I personally see the two very differently. One gets you ready to play the (end-)game for a small fee without having to go through the early story, while the other skips the endgame and invalidates rewards (such as the prestige of Titles) associated with it for exorbitant prices.

The former might even have been healthy for the game, the latter definitely isn't.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Well if they act upon the sellers by disallowing/outlawing selling then players that join after Steam release will see an empty LFG instead. Because those players doing all the selling, can finish the content by themselves just fine, it's not like they will open "all welcome" groups and allow everyone in their groups for free. So there is a choice here, which is worse: an LFG without sellers, or an LFG with sellers, the number of non-selling groups won't change either way.

I don't think an LFG full of advertisements adds much to the game or has a positive effect on it's population image, if anything it detracts from it - even if the alternative would be an empty LFG.If I were to join an old game late, I'm pretty sure finding only a few groups there would be less disappointing than just a list of Ads wanting to sell me the content to dig through.

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@"Asum.4960" said:Droknar runs where imo very different though. It wasn't about invalidating endgame achievements for exorbitant prices or anything like that, but just a small fee to have alt characters ferried into "endgame" to buy max level gear etc., to skip having to do all the story on every character just to get them geared and ready/catched up with your mains.

To some perhaps. But there were plenty of players who just wanted to skip to the end, and/or were struggling with some of the missions.

With Fractals, some players are simply completionists. But they may not be skilled enough, or have some physical disability that prevents them from completing Fractals. I don't think those people should be denied from completing the content. And of course some players simply can't be bothered to do it themselves. Wouldn't we much rather see these people join a paid ferry, then to join other groups?

If some players would rather have someone else do all the hard work for them, why should we care? It does not diminish my enjoyment of the game.

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@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:To some perhaps. But there were plenty of players who just wanted to skip to the end, and/or were struggling with some of the missions.

If players were struggling with the easy early missions, I doubt paying a small fee to skip them into more advanced content would do them much good, and where it differs quite a lot from buying/selling the most difficult endgame content.

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:With Fractals, some players are simply completionists. But they may not be skilled enough, or have some physical disability that prevents them from completing Fractals. I don't think those people should be denied from completing the content. And of course some players simply can't be bothered to do it themselves. Wouldn't we much rather see these people join a paid ferry, then to join other groups?

If some players would rather have someone else do all the hard work for them, why should we care? It does not diminish my enjoyment of the game.

Well, aside from other issues such as endgame content selling with it's high prices often being linked to real money trading (and, as far as I know, sellers in the past having been banned for receiving gold traced back to gold sellers), I'm fairly vary of arguments excusing harmful/game diminishing behavior on the backs of likely extremely niche cases of the "weak and frail", and how it's really a generous service to them, who want to complete everything - even if they aren't really contributing/earning it, robbing them and others of the personal accomplishment still. But even for those cases there are much healthier options to get carried through like communities and guilds actually willing to help, rather than Sellers selling it for a high price out of personal greed.Beyond that ofc there could be a case made for if you can't beat it, you can't earn it, which while I'm not 100% behind that idea isn't entirely unreasonable either.

Does it affect me personally and do I care tremendously? No.But as I said, I do think it diminishes the game and endgame accomplishments if the LFG is full of more advertisements to sell all endgame achievements than groups actually wanting to play the content and earn and achieve things together, which is frequently the case.

If the company then insists on it's players to use those Titles gained by beating endgame content as qualifications, removing more accurate alternative matchmaking options such as KP, it does get even more problematic though.

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Selling things like boss kills, titles etc. for in-game currency is a thing in just about every MMO and the most common stance that devs take with it is that they're fine with it but its at a player's own risk, devs won't re-imburse if said player is a dummy and gets themselves scammed, selling these things for real world currency is a big no-no though and the most common stance there is a big fat banhammer

Overall I don't really see anything wrong with it, if people are good enough at one or multiple encounters then why not make a little money with it? People have been selling and buying ''services'' since GW1 anyway so its not like this is new to the franchise, as for people who buy such services who am I or anyone else to say what they should do with their in-game gold? If they want something and have the gold to pay for it, all power to them, I think its unlikely that new players will get the wrong impression of end-game considering actual forming groups outnumber the amount of sellers most of the time

Also as a sidenote, people buying these services aren't buying a place in end-game content as you put it, they're buying a kill, a title, a skin, a chair, a whatever, they get told to smack the boss once and then lay dead on the ground for the rest of the encounter, they don't participate, they don't have a place, to get a place you still have to put in time and effort, paying gold to some good players isn't going to teach you mechanics and most non-training runs won't want to deal with someone who gets teleported 20 times in one encounter or doesn't understand something as simple as fixate

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The problem here is that there are tons of assumptions. New players being scammed for hundreds of gold they probably don't have, for end game content they may not even know about? I think there's too much bias assuming it's a scam, and of course the title is biased too.

But the real question is why is this a problem again? I don't think some clutter is worth the time or effort to make entirely new rulesets. And really, some useless LFGs entries is a rather low priority I would thinl.

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