Current State Of Match Making - Bad Matches - Why? - Discussion — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Current State Of Match Making - Bad Matches - Why? - Discussion

Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited September 20, 2020 in PVP

This post was initially in response to this thread -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/114995/matchmaking-completely-busted

But as usual I went in-depth on it, and felt it needed it's own thread.

I think responses that @Vaan.3160 is getting are not noticing the point he is making.

He mentions he is usually a p2-p3 player, which shows he already knows how to win a game in guild wars 2.

What he is referencing is something that many many people have been pointing out lately, which are matches that are actually impossible to win regardless of how good you are or what strategies you are using. He also mentions having streaks of such bad match making that can drop a normal p2/p3 player into gold division.

I've noticed this is as well, not just with my own account's patterns but also the patterns of other players whom I've known for years. This strange and suspicious algorithm activity is largely why I don't take ranked seriously anymore. So imagine if I were to list about 20 people's names from NA who had played p2+ consistently for about the past 2 or 3 years. Now if I were to evaluate those 20 people's performance within about the past 12 months, I'd notice that all of them have maintained their mechanical abilities over the years and they all feel just as difficult to face as they always have mechanically. In ATs they are still just as difficult to deal with as ever and they are still players who ball together to encompass the top 10 strongest teams in NA or even top 5. But for some reason, only about 50% of these 20 players being evaluated are actually playing at a rating of p2+. The other half are reporting exactly what @Vaan.3160 brought up, strange impossible to carry match making that limits them to gold 3 range, rarely allowing them to peak into bottom p1 play.

^ This is a true story, real example being used btw. I've been paying attention to it for quite a few seasons now. So even though those 20 players are nearly identical in peaked skill & knowledge of the game to encompass NA's clearly & visually best players, even historically, people we know so well that we wouldn't need to see a rating above their head to know their skill level, suddenly about half of those players have mysteriously been shoved down into this g3/p1 tribulation mode match making whereas the other half are easily and consistently maintaining p2/p3 standards. Something is wrong with that. Especially where those g3/p1 players are just as good as or better than the p2+ players in AT play. And don't give me that "ATs are so different than yolo/duo" garbage, because we all know that organized 5 man play is a lot harder to keep relevant in than yolo/duo. If a person can consistently win final rounds of ATs against the best players in the game for their region, surely they should be able to maintain a plat 1 level even solo queue. Yet I know many players who have up & left the game who were once amongst the best, claiming that "They can't win ranked games anymore. The match making is broken." So what is going on here?

Well let's get the usual accusations out of the way:

  • Win Trading - It is very real in 2020 but only certain groups of people really have incentive enough to do this and lately they aren't online much or so it seems. Maybe they are on alts throwing, maybe not. But usually a win trade is obvious to those who are aware, by right click viewing the account names of those in the game, and by watching the flow of the match. Lately these bad matches don't feel like win trading to me. Something else is going on.
  • General Alt Throwing - This is also very real in 2020. People play alts and they will throw games against the mains of people they don't like because well, it's a very funny thing to do. But usually this kind of vengeance & rivalry throwing is made obvious through slight trolling, just enough to let someone know what's going on without actually saying it, so that the thrower can benefit maximum QQ entertainment in the process. It's also pretty obvious as to who is purposely throwing, by watching the actions of a player mechanically and rotationally. Some things are too stupid for anyone to do, even if they were wood tier. Some things are so detrimentally stupid for a player to ever do, that a person would actually need to possess a p2+ understanding of the game to even be able to identify that the throw action would hurt the team that much. When you start seeing actions like that happening, you can tell that the person knows the game very well, to be making sure that everything they do is the wrong thing to do. But lately this isn't even happening. Lately it's just honest terrible unprecedented bad match making, where the teams clearly & visually are lopsided as all hell.
  • Low population - Yeah yeah yeah, ok. It does cause problems. But that doesn't explain why out of 20 historically great players, 50% of them continue on with generally the same match quality, but the other 50% suddenly are thrown into the g3 tribulation, playing 200+ rating lower than the other p2/p3 guys who are in every way their equals no better no worse. Something else is going on that hasn't really been figured out or talked about yet.

Now for years we've had talk in the forum about some accounts being on the good list for match making and some accounts being on the bad list for match making. Lately I am beginning to wonder if something like this is actually happening. This is because of the sheer visibility of what is happening, due to low population. It definitely looks like some accounts are consistently being given the bad end of match making, regardless of if they are solo or duo. Then other accounts seem to be given otherwise balanced matches that are actually winnable, as if they were being allowed to have an algorithm that worked as intended. This is very visible if you look at what's happening from a macro standpoint of the community, rather than just your own subjective experience during queue. The real question here is: "Why is that happening?" Is it a bug? Is it being done to some players on purpose? Is it administrative? Is it just some players getting a lot of attention from throw alts?

A few things I've noticed, and keep in mind that a player with nearly 20,000 games played knows the game well. If you are a player of similar experience, you would know that you are able to tell the difference between when you are performing well or poorly, when your partner is carrying you or holding you down, and when a match is just suspiciously lopsided and in no way winnable even for a top 5 duo, whom you know their capabilities well because you are against them in ATs all of the time.

  1. I'm bottom plat 1 on my main account that is approaching 20,000 games played. I'm bottom plat 1 and most of my games are so incredibly ball busting difficult and full of randoms, regardless of if I am solo or duo, that I will need to consistently win 1v2s the entire game to have any chance at all of pulling a win. And if I don't have a kill ratio of like straight downing & finishing 2 players per about 60s, there will be no way to win the match. Yet when I log into my alt that has only about 500 or 600 ranked games played, I can be around 1620 rating and much more often than not my matches are less than half as difficult as the main. They are so much easier even at +100 rating or higher, that in some of these matches I could actually AFK for a good 60s and come back, and still have no problem winning the game. Under no circumstances does the main account EVER get granted games that are that easy, even if it drops into g3 tribulation. <- Some of you probably remember me writing a thread that followed this with screenshots of the main vs alt rating for a few seasons in a row, to prove that I was not joking around about this. The main account clearly is being given much much more difficult match making, even if it's in g3 and the alt is in p2. It's also important to note that the alt is seemingly allowed to stay within 1620 - 1580 rating the entire season with no strange streaks applied to it. But the main CONSISTENTLY will bounce back and forth from bottom 1600 to bottom 1400 range, over and over and over and over. Every time the main touches 1600, it's like an automated forced lose streak occurs, and it will be made to go and nearly touch g2 before the bad match avalanche stops. That never happens on the alt. Not once has it happened to the alt.
  2. There are some players that I queue with who are p2 standard, that we can't lose a match until we get up around 1600+. When this happens, it is not that the person is carrying so hard or I am carrying so hard. No, it's that the games just feel normal and approachable and not janky. But then other p2 standard players I will queue with, literally every time I try to queue with particular people, we cannot win a game at all and will go down to g3 margins if we continue to queue together. And this isn't because he is bad or I am bad or our duo is just not good together. No, the games we are being put in are all clearly lopsided. Our pugs will always be super random accounts that we've never seen before and will never see again, they perform atrociously bad, and yet we are being put against some p2+ duo or better who has actual players on their teams that everyone knows and recognizes. The matches are clearly lopsided as all hell, every time. These patterns I am noticing are no embellishment. There are certain players that it would seem within the algorithm, I am not allowed to queue with. Why would that happen? I have no idea but it does.
  3. I'll go into an AT with a p2 team or sometimes a p2/p1 team, sometimes even just a bottom p1 team. We'll get to the final round and lose to some MAT worthy team of top p3+ players only 500 to 350+, other times we in the final round. We'll take that same plat team and earlier in the AT we'll crunch the other plat teams like 500 to 200. Sometimes our plat teams will beat other plat teams like 500 to 100 or less. And then that moment occurs, when you look at the leaderboards and wonder how in the kitten is it even possible that those players that you just beat and always beat in ATs 500 to 100 or less, are somehow all at the same ranked ratings as the players on your team. You wonder after facing them several times in ATs, and seeing how they are rotationally & combat mechanically ill, how is it even possible for these players to be anywhere near 1600+ margins in ranked. And then you start wondering other things like how is it even possible that I know a few guys right now, who could very seriously 1v2 any of the players on their team, but somehow those guys are stuck in the g3/bottom plat tribulation. And it occurs to you, something is wrong here.

Over the years I have harped on and on endlessly about this game's match making and the leaderboard manipulation therein. In the earlier years when population was high and things were more difficult to notice, many people if not most people, cried conspiracy and said I was wrong. But when population got low and things became more visible, guess what, I was right, about everything. There was even one time in the old forum that I had noticed a small mechanical error in the match making and harped on about it for nearly a year, having players tell me I was wrong, until an arenanet dev came in and stated that they did find an error doing exactly what I had noticed and that it would soon be patched. This probably sounds egotistical to most reading this, but I don't know how else to say it. I am good at noticing patterns, always have been. Literally everything I have ever noticed and pointed out in this forum pertaining to match making, has in time revealed itself to be true. Literally every single thing. I urge you to find and quote something from me that didn't.

My point in bringing all of that up ^ is that I am once again pointing out that something is definitely very wrong with the match making. Some accounts are consistently being given worse match making than others. The real question is why. This time around, it isn't simply luck or win trading or throwing. Whatever is going on here, is happening through some kind of algorithm function or possibly something administrative. If we want to continue seeing playable games, I urge everyone to pitch it, begin paying attention, and try to narrow down what exactly is going on here.

Here are my first thoughts:

  1. Total games played - It has been stated in past patch notes that total games played does indeed inflate an account's base MMR which is invisible and under seasonal rating. It has also been stated that actual MMR does indeed effect match making. But to what degree it effects match making has never been stated. This would explain a lot actually, but not everything. Nonetheless, this function may have worked 4+ years ago, but as the years move on heading into year 9, this is just simply unfair. A new player can catch up and peak in skill & knowledge to a vet by the time they are around 2000 games played. But the vet they are equal to is being punished in this match making for having 20,000 games played. This function needs to be removed completely.
  2. A straight up bug - I've often felt that my match making on my main account was bugged. For the older players out there, we know what it feels like, the difference, between a g3 match, a p1 match, a p2 match, a p3+ match. There are distinct shifts in how the matches feel and work. So keeping that in mind, understand that sometimes when my main would go on those very strange epic lose streaks down into g3 and then continue to lose until it was kitten near g2, it would very distinctly feel like every match even in bottom g3, it was placing me as if I were still p2+. I mean seriously, every game down in bottom g3 would be so unusually and unnecessarily difficult for absolutely no reason other than if you stop and think about it and it occurs to you that: "This level of difficulty would make sense if I was trying to yolo and were still 1600+, like this is EXACTLY what a 1600+ game feels like" yet I am nearly in g2 and it is still happening. The games don't feel win trade, they don't feel throw, they feel like it is still placing me as if I were 1600+. So I wonder if there is a bug that happens sometimes, where the algorithm is somehow not updating the player's shift in actual rating/MMR for some elongated amount of time, and indeed is placing a player with some previous rating/MMR. Obviously the leaderboards reflect rating gain/loss, but is the algorithm a different system than leaderboard updates? Could the algorithm hiccup and somehow the numbers inside the algorithm get stuck like this? It would honestly explain a lot. It would explain unholy lose streaks from p2/p3 down to nearly g2, and then suddenly all in 1 game, it flips and then the matches are so easy for the next 10-15 games all super easy, and the player shoots right back up to 1600+, and then it happens again. It would also explain occurrences where I know for a fact that I was losing A LOT more rating for losses mid season than I should have for being so low, and I was gaining half of what I should have for the rating I was at. <- This has definitely happened to me on a couple different occasions. Remember, I have nearly 20,000 games played here, I'm not ignorant. When it's mid season and I'm 90 games deep in g3 and I yolo queue beat a p2+ duo and only gain +9 but lose -17 if they beat me, something is wrong with that.
  3. A new form of flat out cheating - Yes, I've wondered. Without without much explanation I'll say that some of these matches no longer look win trade or throw. Like there is visually not anyone on your team or the other team who appear to be purposely throwing at all, but rather it feels exactly like in an inhouse when too many strong players get stacked on one team. Some of these games are so ridiculously lopsided that even while viewing the leaderboards you ask yourself: "How did the algorithm even put me into this match? The other team is clearly stacked with much stronger players." Some of these matches lately feel like someone has administrative access to tinker with the match making, similar to custom arenas where the owner can just put people on whatever team he wants. So yeah, I wonder what's going on here.

Anyway, maybe someone inside the arenanet office cares, maybe not, but I feel like the game mode is dying out here for all of the wrong reasons, and ridiculously busted match making in the ranked mode is at the top of the list, right under it being ranked mode solo/duo which is too easy to match manipulate. I know that arenanet can see the same patterns that I can see, if they wanted to look at it at all. I just wish they'd care enough to sort it out. I feel like these problems are simply not difficult to resolve, whether it's updating/patching/fixing the algorithm for a low population community, or simply removing ranked, shuffling ranked rewards to unranked, and putting rating/badge icon into shorter 1 month long seasons tied to MATs, whatever. I just want the game to make sense again and have a firewall against such easy & casual match manipulations.

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Comments

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bad matches are simply a result of solo + duo q only. You can go into a match and if you have solid specs with a strong strategy for carrying most matches should be ez, but if your strategy isn’t enough your matches will be harder or just out carried by the next duo q. So many times have I seen great duos that do there job but still lose because the other duos strat makes up for the impact they have, so they lose but still did the right thing in the match. The only thing that would make these “bad matches” any better in the cases I’m thinking of would be a team q, but let’s be honest not all the duos use “meta builds” and “proper rotations” so in the end a team q won’t change much for a lot of ppl.

  • I've been playing pvp since the beginning, from this classification system, the system almost always looks for you to be in the 50% of wins and losses. You win 3 games in a row, the 4th always takes almost twice as long to jump, even putting for example 1:30 or 1:40, it goes after 4 min, to find a team below your level.

    Last game to raise the Tier as before, the waiting time is double and the team is well below your division, therefore you lose 3 or 4 games in a row, it is a loop.

    sorry my bad english

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Whether these theories are confirmed or not is irrelevant, it does however go to show that ANet has botched their own systems to the extent of them hurting their players and the experience of said players in the game. It could be ignorance or it could be a sheer lack of competence, we don't know because they don't say anything. Its unfortunate, really, that things have gotten to this point where players, at the very least, feel like they are being punished for being loyal and playing this game for a long time, especially in the competitive modes. Some, like myself, have possibly even been with the Guild Wars franchise since GW1 released (15 years) and played in the competitive modes through that whole game and then done so in GW2, and speaking as someone who has done that to then see the differences in their approach, their ability, or inability in this case, to seemingly care about these modes is honestly disheartening. PvP was one of the best things about GW1 and GW2 and they have pretty much ditched it on the latter. I know this is one of the most casual friendly MMORPGs on the market, I know ANet wants to try attracting new players, I know ANet definitely wants to focus on their Living World and other PvE content (even though they also ditch numerous parts of PvE as well), but their game has the potential for so much more and to be improved so much if they just actually bothered to put some effort into resolving these problems.

    And these things are why when Lost Ark comes out in NA/EU in 2021 I will completely remove myself from this game, that is unless EoD releases with some drastic changes and attentions to their game modes. Otherwise...I think I'll take the 3v3 TDM Ranked of Lost Ark over this. Also definitely has more interesting PvE.

  • @KryTiKaL.3125

    Then as an old GW1 player, you will totally understand the serious behind when I say:

    "The old GW1 Random Arena queue somehow had more balanced match making than GW2 now when GW2 has a match making algorithm designed to make balanced matches."

    Something is very very very wrong with that and that is why I wrote this thread, because that does not make any sense at all.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @KryTiKaL.3125

    Then as an old GW1 player, you will totally understand the serious behind when I say:

    "The old GW1 Random Arena queue somehow had more balanced match making than GW2 now when GW2 has a match making algorithm designed to make balanced matches."

    Something is very very very wrong with that and that is why I wrote this thread, because that does not make any sense at all.

    It did. GW1 had its own problems for sure, literally every game does, but GW1 back then compared to GW2 now, no rose tinted glasses, didn't feel like it was punishing older or more experienced players like how GW2 does; at least in regards to competitive modes.

    For lack of a better phrase or more eloquent words I can really only sum it up like this; It's completely kitten.

  • Just chipping in real quick where I can

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Well let's get the usual accusations out of the way:

    • Win Trading - It is very real in 2020 but only certain groups of people really have incentive enough to do this and lately they aren't online much or so it seems. Maybe they are on alts throwing, maybe not. But usually a win trade is obvious to those who are aware, by right click viewing the account names of those in the game, and by watching the flow of the match. Lately these bad matches don't feel like win trading to me. Something else is going on.

    I know you're just listing off the usual suspects here but Wintrading barely if at all even exists anymore. For the most part it died on Season 13 when DuoQ came back and Metagaming via DuoQ became the go-to way to fix matches because it isn't technically cheating and its free.

    • Low population - Yeah yeah yeah, ok. It does cause problems. But that doesn't explain why out of 20 historically great players, 50% of them continue on with generally the same match quality, but the other 50% suddenly are thrown into the g3 tribulation, playing 200+ rating lower than the other p2/p3 guys who are in every way their equals no better no worse. Something else is going on that hasn't really been figured out or talked about yet.

    This and general alt throwing are problems perpetuated by merging Solos with Duos and teams, and that's probably a very common item with pretty much every problem Ranked has.

    When it comes to alt throwing, you're much more likely to queue snipe somebody you don't like to the other team if you DuoQ because you've already lowered the chance of being matched with them by 2/5's(That's 40% to the mathematics crowd, that's right I did the math. B) )
    And that sounds like what's more likely to happen rather than sniping someone onto your team to throw the game for them, but I could be wrong there.

    Low pop has always been an issue, but thanks to DuoQ the middle tier is pretty much dead and its so much worse. People got wise that there's no point to playing Ranked when it's impossible to grow due to dumb concepts. They were and are sandwiched between two extremes; one being gold players and bots who don't care and play exclusively for the rewards and the other being the top 1% of players stacked together in their unbeatable DuoQ's.

    Like... If you're playing a game competitively to grow and get better at it; when you lose, you probably want to lose to a series of mistakes you can understand and maybe go back and analyze. It's why some people record all their games, in a bid to see what they did right or wrong. You don't want to feel like you lost to DuoQ, like you lost to a concept. It's barely any different from losing or winning to an AFKer because all there is to talk about is:
    "Oh we lost/won because one team was down a player"
    Or in this case "Oh we lost/won because one team had a high-level DuoQ and the other didn't."

    DuoQ doesn't even need to be removed tho. If Ranked was split into Teams and Solos then most of these problems would be far less noticeable if not solved entirely.

    1. A straight up bug - I've often felt that my match making on my main account was bugged. For the older players out there, we know what it feels like, the difference, between a g3 match, a p1 match, a p2 match, a p3+ match. There are distinct shifts in how the matches feel and work. So keeping that in mind, understand that sometimes when my main would go on those very strange epic lose streaks down into g3 and then continue to lose until it was kitten near g2, it would very distinctly feel like every match even in bottom g3, it was placing me as if I were still p2+. I mean seriously, every game down in bottom g3 would be so unusually and unnecessarily difficult for absolutely no reason other than if you stop and think about it and it occurs to you that: "This level of difficulty would make sense if I was trying to yolo and were still 1600+, like this is EXACTLY what a 1600+ game feels like" yet I am nearly in g2 and it is still happening. The games don't feel win trade, they don't feel throw, they feel like it is still placing me as if I were 1600+. So I wonder if there is a bug that happens sometimes, where the algorithm is somehow not updating the player's shift in actual rating/MMR for some elongated amount of time, and indeed is placing a player with some previous rating/MMR. Obviously the leaderboards reflect rating gain/loss, but is the algorithm a different system than leaderboard updates? Could the algorithm hiccup and somehow the numbers inside the algorithm get stuck like this? It would honestly explain a lot. It would explain unholy lose streaks from p2/p3 down to nearly g2, and then suddenly all in 1 game, it flips and then the matches are so easy for the next 10-15 games all super easy, and the player shoots right back up to 1600+, and then it happens again. It would also explain occurrences where I know for a fact that I was losing A LOT more rating for losses mid season than I should have for being so low, and I was gaining half of what I should have for the rating I was at. <- This has definitely happened to me on a couple different occasions. Remember, I have nearly 20,000 games played here, I'm not ignorant. When it's mid season and I'm 90 games deep in g3 and I yolo queue beat a p2+ duo and only gain +9 but lose -17 if they beat me, something is wrong with that.

    That's not a bug, I promise you. It's just the way rating works. The only thing that is going to determine how much you gain or lose is the effective ratings of everyone in your match.

    You could be a g3 and beat a team with the top 2 best players in the game DuoQ'd on it, and you could(and probably would) gain like +9 and lose -18 for doing so.
    There might be 2 legends on the other team, but in order to make the matchmaking "fair" they're usually given like silver and low-gold teammates to make up for the rating difference between them and you which can wreck the average rating of the team(AKA the single factor that determines how much you win or lose at the end.)
    Bonus points if the legendary DuoQ is alting because that makes it even worse, and no; it does not take the highest rated player's rating, it treats both people in a DuoQ like two individual players.

    1. A new form of flat out cheating - Yes, I've wondered. Without without much explanation I'll say that some of these matches no longer look win trade or throw. Like there is visually not anyone on your team or the other team who appear to be purposely throwing at all, but rather it feels exactly like in an inhouse when too many strong players get stacked on one team. Some of these games are so ridiculously lopsided that even while viewing the leaderboards you ask yourself: "How did the algorithm even put me into this match? The other team is clearly stacked with much stronger players." Some of these matches lately feel like someone has administrative access to tinker with the match making, similar to custom arenas where the owner can just put people on whatever team he wants. So yeah, I wonder what's going on here.

    Metagaming. Not actually cheating, not a punishable offense, but very boring. It's going outside the game to seek an advantage within, and the way it manifests in this game is good players never being matched against other good players.

    DuoQing in the off-hours, DuoQing for numbers&matchmaking advantages, queue-dodging, alting, Out class-swapping people before a match starts. -All examples of Metagaming.
    It all sounds shady, doesn't it? It's actually so boring. Like cheating but not exactly cheating.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    “ I feel like these problems are simply not difficult to resolve,”

    No, it’s not going to get resolved. And it will never be resolved. Not when you have random human factors involved. And sorry, but you are way off base here, much like the complaints about wvw matches... You will never have the same amount of players or the same amount of skilled players playing at the exact same times of every hour of every day, but that’s what you are expecting the devs to fix... The devs can’t code or patch out the randomness of when a player or players decide to log in to play, and you are misguided to expect a “not difficult” resolution from the devs when there isn’t a resolution to satisfy some players expectations of perfect matches every time they decide to play... Finally, I can guarantee that when some players win they think the matchmaker is good, and vice versa when they lose.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    “ I feel like these problems are simply not difficult to resolve,”

    No, it’s not going to get resolved. And it will never be resolved. Not when you have random human factors involved. And sorry, but you are way off base here, much like the complaints about wvw matches... You will never have the same amount of players or the same amount of skilled players playing at the exact same times of every hour of every day, but that’s what you are expecting the devs to fix... The devs can’t code or patch out the randomness of when a player or players decide to log in to play, and you are misguided to expect a “not difficult” resolution from the devs when there isn’t a resolution to satisfy some players expectations of perfect matches every time they decide to play... Finally, I can guarantee that when some players win they think the matchmaker is good, and vice versa when they lose.

    I feel like its disingenuous, and frankly "side-stepping" the issue, to suggest that people only see a problem with the matchmaking "when they are losing". For sure that is some of the cases, but I would argue that it doesn't account for all of them and it also ignores the idea that they notice this trend in the first place because they also win matches. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes level of deduction and perception to notice that you are completely running over the enemy team. Anyone with a good enough idea of how the game works, and who have potentially played it long enough, can identify if they are doing well in a match and can win it, or if they just have no possibility of doing so because of how the matchmaking has worked and they can't entirely carry their team in a game mode that is almost entirely centered on capture objectives.

    The human factor is...a factor, but its not the whole one. Not to mention the devs have specifically stated, and even put it in patch notes in the past, that they have endeavored to alter the matchmaking so as to lessen queue times which has resulted in the search expanding the pool of players it looks for when building teams. Why else do you think Plat players show up in Gold 1 games? Population is a factor, but thats exactly why they changed the matchmaker to work that way, on top of other factors that @Trevor Boyer.6524 pointed out as possibilities of heavy influence.

    No one is expecting perfect matches, no one is expecting to win every match and if they do expect these things well then let them rage off the game because no matter the scenario they are going to do that anyway. What they are expecting is for the matchmaking to do what you expect matchmaking to do in a game that pulls from MMR or Elo type systems; to pair you with and against players of equal "rating" and "skill" on a consistent enough basis. Currently...GW2 does not do that in sPvP, and its not even recent its just getting more noticeable which means its probably getting worse as time goes on.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The random human factors of when people play and what skills levels they are at the times of logging in to play, that the devs have zero control over, is the main factor.

    Some of y’all want perfect matches every time you log in to play and that’s not gonna happen... But some of you expect that to happen and it’s unrealistic.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The random human factors of when people play and what skills levels they are at the times of logging in to play, that the devs have zero control over, is the main factor.

    Some of y’all want perfect matches every time you log in to play and that’s not gonna happen... But some of you expect that to happen and it’s unrealistic.

    However, over a large enough sample, even randomly things are normalized. This is why any large enough measurement ends up in a bell curve, not a potato curve. Sure, no one player have enough games to draw a conclusion, but most players have around the same experiences. And... sPvP as whole now does not have enough players. So potatoes it is.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The random human factors of when people play and what skills levels they are at the times of logging in to play, that the devs have zero control over, is the main factor.

    Some of y’all want perfect matches every time you log in to play and that’s not gonna happen... But some of you expect that to happen and it’s unrealistic.

    Again...that isn't what is being said or implied; that we want perfect matches every time we log in. Like I said, sure, there will be people who log in and just expect, for some weird reason, to win all of their matches and for them to go perfectly...but that is exactly why those people typically rage themselves off of the game either for the day or just the foreseeable future. I wouldn't say that those types of players make up the majority, nor even the higher end of the Divisions in Ranked or ATs, but yes...they do exist.

    You seem to be stuck on this idea, a very big assumption, that players like myself or even @Trevor Boyer.6524 want to log in and just have "perfect" matches and that is very, very far from the case. I would say that is likely true for many who still play PvP to some extent, in fact I'd argue that many don't even take it seriously enough to warrant the assumption you're making; that they expect perfect matches when they log in. I think more often than not they are logging in and expecting to get a string of losses because of how things are working currently, but many try to, at the very least, have fun regardless. Thats how bad it has gotten, their expectations are that low for this game that they queue up and don't expect the matchmaking to actually, y'know, matchmake properly. I've actually seen several people on these forums just suggest to others whom asking about Ranked that they shouldn't take it very seriously, to just try and have fun with the PvP and not worry too much about climbing or anything.

    Thats why I feel like your assumption of the circumstances kind of gets thrown out the window.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The random human factors of when people play and what skills levels they are at the times of logging in to play, that the devs have zero control over, is the main factor.

    Some of y’all want perfect matches every time you log in to play and that’s not gonna happen... But some of you expect that to happen and it’s unrealistic.

    Again...that isn't what is being said or implied; that we want perfect matches every time we log in. Like I said, sure, there will be people who log in and just expect, for some weird reason, to win all of their matches and for them to go perfectly...but that is exactly why those people typically rage themselves off of the game either for the day or just the foreseeable future. I wouldn't say that those types of players make up the majority, nor even the higher end of the Divisions in Ranked or ATs, but yes...they do exist.

    You seem to be stuck on this idea, a very big assumption, that players like myself or even @Trevor Boyer.6524 want to log in and just have "perfect" matches and that is very, very far from the case. I would say that is likely true for many who still play PvP to some extent, in fact I'd argue that many don't even take it seriously enough to warrant the assumption you're making; that they expect perfect matches when they log in. I think more often than not they are logging in and expecting to get a string of losses because of how things are working currently, but many try to, at the very least, have fun regardless. Thats how bad it has gotten, their expectations are that low for this game that they queue up and don't expect the matchmaking to actually, y'know, matchmake properly. I've actually seen several people on these forums just suggest to others whom asking about Ranked that they shouldn't take it very seriously, to just try and have fun with the PvP and not worry too much about climbing or anything.

    Thats why I feel like your assumption of the circumstances kind of gets thrown out the window.

    @Swagger.1459 saying that "people are expecting perfect match making" is kind of a convoluted response that changes the goal posts of what is actually being said here.

    What is being said that has been said several several times over in a dozen threads within the past couple weeks even, is that people want to know why the match making doesn't even make sense anymore. They want to know why this is happening:

    • win 500 to 100 where the game is so easy they could have AFK'd and still won
    • Then lose 100 to 500 where the game was so hard that it felt like nothing they did even mattered
    • and then go on a lose streak from p2 to gold 3 where every single match is beyond unreasonably difficult
    • and then turn around and go on a win streak to p2 where every match is so easy that it confuses them as to why it is even happening
    • and then a lose streak back down into bottom gold 3 again where it feels like the algorithm is purposely situating win and lose situations, as if it were actually avoiding making balanced matches all together.

    ^ That's what people are inquiring about. No one is expecting perfect match making, but they are asking for an attempt to fix the obviously broken as hell match making that we are currently experiencing.

  • felix.2386felix.2386 Member ✭✭✭

    literally unplayable soloq, loosing 15 point per game while being completely one sided even at gold 3.
    not a single teammate win a single fight and team fight is literally unwinnable with teammates like these, even if you win all 1v1 far and stall 1v2, team still won't cap any point

    warrior has been unplayable in pvp
    for 6 months till now

    good job balance team

  • Jayy Savage got rank 1 solo q. I think you guys just need to improve.

    By the way jayy savage fan club is recruiting if interested please contact me

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    I can confirm literally EVERYTHING you said in the OP is true. I am forever stuck in gold3/plat1 because I get put in the most uneven, unfair, matches possible. I am ALWAYS matched with people in their placements put against Top10 player duo's while their teammates are not only better than mine, they are also better than me, and +300-400 rating to me.

    Anytime I get near plat, I am IMMEDIATELY put into these completely unwinnable games against top10 duo's and go on lose streaks until I am nearly gold2.

    I was duoing with a legend(In HoT he was legend every single season and always plat2+ in PoF) player, The first day we played together I got to mid plat immediately, yet had a NEGATIVE win rate(lol?). We kept getting good teammates and I thought queueing on the weekends was good and matchmaking was better. We stayed in mid plat after playing 30+ games that day easily.

    Next 3 days we queue together , we would consistently need to be 2vs1ing all game long to even come remotely close to winning - and even then, we'd win by 5-40 points. Sometimes we'd be steam rolling every team fight while I'm decapping and holding far all game long, yet we're down 200 points and we have no idea why.

    Every single teammate we got, was 100% guaranteed to do nothing but res, and immediately die and feed the second they left spawn. They never once team fought, ressed, or contributed anything to any fight. If we died a single time in any game, it was GG. We had to never die, not once, because our teammates would die over TWENTY times combined per match(you can tell if you die once and then look at % of team deaths, which we intentionally would do at the end of matches to see our teammates death numbers). It was complete insanity.

    My friend quit the game because he simply didn't find it fun having to carry such hard games.

    BTW when I was on EU I was 1550 and played against a 1900(rank1) duo at the time, and lost 29 rating. I was queued solo. Explain that, please.

  • @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I can confirm literally EVERYTHING you said in the OP is true. I am forever stuck in gold3/plat1 because I get put in the most uneven, unfair, matches possible. I am ALWAYS matched with people in their placements put against Top10 player duo's while their teammates are not only better than mine, they are also better than me, and +300-400 rating to me.

    Anytime I get near plat, I am IMMEDIATELY put into these completely unwinnable games against top10 duo's and go on lose streaks until I am nearly gold2.

    I was duoing with a legend(In HoT he was legend and always plat2+ in PoF) player and we would consistently need to be 2vs1ing all game long to even come remotely close to winning - and even then, we'd win by 5-40 points. Sometimes we'd be steam rolling every team fight wihle I'm decapping and holding far all game long, yet we're down 200 points and we have no idea why.

    Every single teammate we got, was 100% guaranteed to do nothing but res, and immediately die and feed the second they left spawn. They never once team fought, ressed, or contributed anything to any fight. If we died a single time in any game, it was GG. We had to never die, not once, because our teammates would die over TWENTY times combined per match(you can tell if you die once and then look at % of team deaths, which we intentionally would do at the end of matches to see our teammates death numbers). It was complete insanity.

    My friend quit the game because he simply didn't find it fun having to carry such hard games.

    The real kicker is, when you make an alt account and start playing it well into 200 games played, and that same situation never happens to the alt, and you're playing like 200 rating higher than on your main. And it's that moment when you realize "I am the same person on two different accounts, yet the match maker is not adjusting and settling my true skill level, which it should be doing if it was balanced, I should be playing at the same rating margins on each account, yet the alt is always getting easier matches forever" and it occurs to you truly, that not all accounts are being treated equally for whatever reason that is within the algorithm.

    I'm serious, go try it out. I've have about half a dozen players try the same thing and have the same exact results.

    Let me ask you, how old is your account, what was the birth year, and how many total games do you have played?

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I can confirm literally EVERYTHING you said in the OP is true. I am forever stuck in gold3/plat1 because I get put in the most uneven, unfair, matches possible. I am ALWAYS matched with people in their placements put against Top10 player duo's while their teammates are not only better than mine, they are also better than me, and +300-400 rating to me.

    Anytime I get near plat, I am IMMEDIATELY put into these completely unwinnable games against top10 duo's and go on lose streaks until I am nearly gold2.

    I was duoing with a legend(In HoT he was legend and always plat2+ in PoF) player and we would consistently need to be 2vs1ing all game long to even come remotely close to winning - and even then, we'd win by 5-40 points. Sometimes we'd be steam rolling every team fight wihle I'm decapping and holding far all game long, yet we're down 200 points and we have no idea why.

    Every single teammate we got, was 100% guaranteed to do nothing but res, and immediately die and feed the second they left spawn. They never once team fought, ressed, or contributed anything to any fight. If we died a single time in any game, it was GG. We had to never die, not once, because our teammates would die over TWENTY times combined per match(you can tell if you die once and then look at % of team deaths, which we intentionally would do at the end of matches to see our teammates death numbers). It was complete insanity.

    My friend quit the game because he simply didn't find it fun having to carry such hard games.

    The real kicker is, when you make an alt account and start playing it well into 200 games played, and that same situation never happens to the alt, and you're playing like 200 rating higher than on your main. And it's that moment when you realize "I am the same person on two different accounts, yet the match maker is not adjusting and settling my true skill level, which it should be doing if it was balanced, I should be playing at the same rating margins on each account, yet the alt is always getting easier matches forever" and it occurs to you truly, that not all accounts are being treated equally for whatever reason that is within the algorithm.

    I'm serious, go try it out. I've have about half a dozen players try the same thing and have the same exact results.

    Let me ask you, how old is your account, what was the birth year, and how many total games do you have played?

    My account is day2 of GW2 release and has 8 year old bday. I have a bit over 1k total games played. I played a lot in Vanilla but never much after that until recently.

    My alt account on EU gets much better games.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 Yeah see, just about every single player whom I've talked with that reports really unusual match making patterns that lead to really weird win & lose streaks and being like permanently stuck in this weird pattern, are all people who own first month release accounts. I mean seriously, I'm not just saying this. Even my main account is a first day release birth date.

    I'm curious as to who else is experiencing these patterns and what their account birth dates are. I am also curious as to if any first month birth dates claim to be experiencing very normal match making that isn't volatile at all.

    I think it's an important piece to the puzzle of figuring out what is going on here. I'm talking account birth dates, total games played, and a summary of that account's match making patterns. I'm really starting to believe that something went buggy somewhere along the lines with older accounts.

    But I dunno, it could have absolutely nothing to do with it in the end.

  • I am torn between whether you're right or I just got worse. I started playing PvP about 2 years ago and got my gold2 after first 10 matches. After around 10 games I was 7 points from plat1 and then the season ended - I still didn't know how seasons worked, I was just learning. The next season I played I also ended up in gold 3 the whole season, reaching plat1 two or three times for a shorter period. The next two seasons was same story, I would always end up in high gold3 and games felt really nice, it was almost never completely one-sided match and I had loads of fun. Then I took a break from PvP and partly from GW2 for few months. I later came back, played around 50 unranked games to get my groove back, I watched some pvp streamers to get a better hang of what changed etc. I decided to play out the first 10 games to see where it lands me and I expected low gold1 or high silver3 atleast. I got placed in high silver1 after winning 6 out of 10 games. It then took me around 80 games to reach 1200 rating and it was a horrible experience, my teams would either win hard or lose hard. It felt like I was getting people who just play pvp for dailies in my team and actual pvpers in enemy team. There were too many games where I won games 4v5 and then have no chance of reaching even 100 points in a game playing 5v5. So I reached low gold1 and then I stayed there balancing between s3 and g1. Games don't feel fun anymore like they used to when I first started playing pvp. And it's hard for me to tell if it's my fault - I got worse - or something is actually going on there. It's probably a l2p issue but since you bring this topic up, I thought I would share my story.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The random human factors of when people play and what skills levels they are at the times of logging in to play, that the devs have zero control over, is the main factor.

    Some of y’all want perfect matches every time you log in to play and that’s not gonna happen... But some of you expect that to happen and it’s unrealistic.

    Again...that isn't what is being said or implied; that we want perfect matches every time we log in. Like I said, sure, there will be people who log in and just expect, for some weird reason, to win all of their matches and for them to go perfectly...but that is exactly why those people typically rage themselves off of the game either for the day or just the foreseeable future. I wouldn't say that those types of players make up the majority, nor even the higher end of the Divisions in Ranked or ATs, but yes...they do exist.

    You seem to be stuck on this idea, a very big assumption, that players like myself or even @Trevor Boyer.6524 want to log in and just have "perfect" matches and that is very, very far from the case. I would say that is likely true for many who still play PvP to some extent, in fact I'd argue that many don't even take it seriously enough to warrant the assumption you're making; that they expect perfect matches when they log in. I think more often than not they are logging in and expecting to get a string of losses because of how things are working currently, but many try to, at the very least, have fun regardless. Thats how bad it has gotten, their expectations are that low for this game that they queue up and don't expect the matchmaking to actually, y'know, matchmake properly. I've actually seen several people on these forums just suggest to others whom asking about Ranked that they shouldn't take it very seriously, to just try and have fun with the PvP and not worry too much about climbing or anything.

    Thats why I feel like your assumption of the circumstances kind of gets thrown out the window.

    @Swagger.1459 saying that "people are expecting perfect match making" is kind of a convoluted response that changes the goal posts of what is actually being said here.

    What is being said that has been said several several times over in a dozen threads within the past couple weeks even, is that people want to know why the match making doesn't even make sense anymore. They want to know why this is happening:

    • win 500 to 100 where the game is so easy they could have AFK'd and still won
    • Then lose 100 to 500 where the game was so hard that it felt like nothing they did even mattered
    • and then go on a lose streak from p2 to gold 3 where every single match is beyond unreasonably difficult
    • and then turn around and go on a win streak to p2 where every match is so easy that it confuses them as to why it is even happening
    • and then a lose streak back down into bottom gold 3 again where it feels like the algorithm is purposely situating win and lose situations, as if it were actually avoiding making balanced matches all together.

    ^ That's what people are inquiring about. No one is expecting perfect match making, but they are asking for an attempt to fix the obviously broken as hell match making that we are currently experiencing.

    No, not “convoluted”, it’s pretty straight forward. It’s easy to see the pattern of complaints... Player get on teams that win and the matchmaker is good. Player get on teams that lose and the matchmaker is bad. Player thinks or knows they are good and assumes they should win most of the time, and if that doesn’t happen then it’s mostly the fault of the matchmaker and the devs should fix it...

    Regardless of time of play you get a mixed bag of amounts of players and skill levels. Or do you think that the exact same amount of players of the exact same skill levels are on 24/7 for the matchmaker to perfectly sort out teams that satisfy your preferred match results?

    The matchmaker has to sort in real time based off of the random amounts of players and skill levels that are queuing up... Devs can’t fix when people play, how good they are, what profession they use, how they play during a match... There are a ton of factors the devs don’t have control over and you think it’s some easy fix.

    For 2 decades I’ve played a number of games competitively as a support player, and in GW2 I’ve seen the least competitive mindsets overall. Instead of blaming the devs, blaming other players, and assuming there is some magical fix for all the random human factors, I suggest working on your personal pvp skills and get a team of friends to play and practice with to increase the odds of winning.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The random human factors of when people play and what skills levels they are at the times of logging in to play, that the devs have zero control over, is the main factor.

    Some of y’all want perfect matches every time you log in to play and that’s not gonna happen... But some of you expect that to happen and it’s unrealistic.

    Again...that isn't what is being said or implied; that we want perfect matches every time we log in. Like I said, sure, there will be people who log in and just expect, for some weird reason, to win all of their matches and for them to go perfectly...but that is exactly why those people typically rage themselves off of the game either for the day or just the foreseeable future. I wouldn't say that those types of players make up the majority, nor even the higher end of the Divisions in Ranked or ATs, but yes...they do exist.

    You seem to be stuck on this idea, a very big assumption, that players like myself or even @Trevor Boyer.6524 want to log in and just have "perfect" matches and that is very, very far from the case. I would say that is likely true for many who still play PvP to some extent, in fact I'd argue that many don't even take it seriously enough to warrant the assumption you're making; that they expect perfect matches when they log in. I think more often than not they are logging in and expecting to get a string of losses because of how things are working currently, but many try to, at the very least, have fun regardless. Thats how bad it has gotten, their expectations are that low for this game that they queue up and don't expect the matchmaking to actually, y'know, matchmake properly. I've actually seen several people on these forums just suggest to others whom asking about Ranked that they shouldn't take it very seriously, to just try and have fun with the PvP and not worry too much about climbing or anything.

    Thats why I feel like your assumption of the circumstances kind of gets thrown out the window.

    @Swagger.1459 saying that "people are expecting perfect match making" is kind of a convoluted response that changes the goal posts of what is actually being said here.

    What is being said that has been said several several times over in a dozen threads within the past couple weeks even, is that people want to know why the match making doesn't even make sense anymore. They want to know why this is happening:

    • win 500 to 100 where the game is so easy they could have AFK'd and still won
    • Then lose 100 to 500 where the game was so hard that it felt like nothing they did even mattered
    • and then go on a lose streak from p2 to gold 3 where every single match is beyond unreasonably difficult
    • and then turn around and go on a win streak to p2 where every match is so easy that it confuses them as to why it is even happening
    • and then a lose streak back down into bottom gold 3 again where it feels like the algorithm is purposely situating win and lose situations, as if it were actually avoiding making balanced matches all together.

    ^ That's what people are inquiring about. No one is expecting perfect match making, but they are asking for an attempt to fix the obviously broken as hell match making that we are currently experiencing.

    No, not “convoluted”, it’s pretty straight forward. It’s easy to see the pattern of complaints... Player get on teams that win and the matchmaker is good. Player get on teams that lose and the matchmaker is bad. Player thinks or knows they are good and assumes they should win most of the time, and if that doesn’t happen then it’s mostly the fault of the matchmaker and the devs should fix it...

    Regardless of time of play you get a mixed bag of amounts of players and skill levels. Or do you think that the exact same amount of players of the exact same skill levels are on 24/7 for the matchmaker to perfectly sort out teams that satisfy your preferred match results?

    The matchmaker has to sort in real time based off of the random amounts of players and skill levels that are queuing up... Devs can’t fix when people play, how good they are, what profession they use, how they play during a match... There are a ton of factors the devs don’t have control over and you think it’s some easy fix.

    For 2 decades I’ve played a number of games competitively as a support player, and in GW2 I’ve seen the least competitive mindsets overall. Instead of blaming the devs, blaming other players, and assuming there is some magical fix for all the random human factors, I suggest working on your personal pvp skills and get a team of friends to play and practice with to increase the odds of winning.

    Dude it's like you're not actually reading anything at all, or haven't since about 2018.

    There are very real problems with the match maker right now and not once have I heard a single player say "Hey I think the match maker is good I'm winning" or say anything else that would even begin to encourage such an idea. People during wins right now are still baffled because match flow lately is like: Win a game 500 to 100, turn around lose a game 100 to 500, then win again 500 to 100. No one is praising any of this, they're wondering why every match is lopsided win or lose, and why it would seem that the match maker is completely avoiding balanced matches.

    And furthermore no one believes there are magical fixes, which is the point of me writing this thread, to get community feedback to get a better idea of exactly where the problem or problems actually are right now. Then and then only, maybe, the community could toss Arenanet some real suggestions.

    Seriously though man, this isn't idle complaint lately. If you haven't logged in to play in awhile, go do it and run about 10 games in ranked. Then we'll see if you come back here feeling the same way.

    You, indeed, believe in a magical fix...

    “I feel like these problems are simply not difficult to resolve“

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The random human factors of when people play and what skills levels they are at the times of logging in to play, that the devs have zero control over, is the main factor.

    Some of y’all want perfect matches every time you log in to play and that’s not gonna happen... But some of you expect that to happen and it’s unrealistic.

    Again...that isn't what is being said or implied; that we want perfect matches every time we log in. Like I said, sure, there will be people who log in and just expect, for some weird reason, to win all of their matches and for them to go perfectly...but that is exactly why those people typically rage themselves off of the game either for the day or just the foreseeable future. I wouldn't say that those types of players make up the majority, nor even the higher end of the Divisions in Ranked or ATs, but yes...they do exist.

    You seem to be stuck on this idea, a very big assumption, that players like myself or even @Trevor Boyer.6524 want to log in and just have "perfect" matches and that is very, very far from the case. I would say that is likely true for many who still play PvP to some extent, in fact I'd argue that many don't even take it seriously enough to warrant the assumption you're making; that they expect perfect matches when they log in. I think more often than not they are logging in and expecting to get a string of losses because of how things are working currently, but many try to, at the very least, have fun regardless. Thats how bad it has gotten, their expectations are that low for this game that they queue up and don't expect the matchmaking to actually, y'know, matchmake properly. I've actually seen several people on these forums just suggest to others whom asking about Ranked that they shouldn't take it very seriously, to just try and have fun with the PvP and not worry too much about climbing or anything.

    Thats why I feel like your assumption of the circumstances kind of gets thrown out the window.

    @Swagger.1459 saying that "people are expecting perfect match making" is kind of a convoluted response that changes the goal posts of what is actually being said here.

    What is being said that has been said several several times over in a dozen threads within the past couple weeks even, is that people want to know why the match making doesn't even make sense anymore. They want to know why this is happening:

    • win 500 to 100 where the game is so easy they could have AFK'd and still won
    • Then lose 100 to 500 where the game was so hard that it felt like nothing they did even mattered
    • and then go on a lose streak from p2 to gold 3 where every single match is beyond unreasonably difficult
    • and then turn around and go on a win streak to p2 where every match is so easy that it confuses them as to why it is even happening
    • and then a lose streak back down into bottom gold 3 again where it feels like the algorithm is purposely situating win and lose situations, as if it were actually avoiding making balanced matches all together.

    ^ That's what people are inquiring about. No one is expecting perfect match making, but they are asking for an attempt to fix the obviously broken as hell match making that we are currently experiencing.

    No, not “convoluted”, it’s pretty straight forward. It’s easy to see the pattern of complaints... Player get on teams that win and the matchmaker is good. Player get on teams that lose and the matchmaker is bad. Player thinks or knows they are good and assumes they should win most of the time, and if that doesn’t happen then it’s mostly the fault of the matchmaker and the devs should fix it...

    Regardless of time of play you get a mixed bag of amounts of players and skill levels. Or do you think that the exact same amount of players of the exact same skill levels are on 24/7 for the matchmaker to perfectly sort out teams that satisfy your preferred match results?

    The matchmaker has to sort in real time based off of the random amounts of players and skill levels that are queuing up... Devs can’t fix when people play, how good they are, what profession they use, how they play during a match... There are a ton of factors the devs don’t have control over and you think it’s some easy fix.

    For 2 decades I’ve played a number of games competitively as a support player, and in GW2 I’ve seen the least competitive mindsets overall. Instead of blaming the devs, blaming other players, and assuming there is some magical fix for all the random human factors, I suggest working on your personal pvp skills and get a team of friends to play and practice with to increase the odds of winning.

    Dude it's like you're not actually reading anything at all, or haven't since about 2018.

    There are very real problems with the match maker right now and not once have I heard a single player say "Hey I think the match maker is good I'm winning" or say anything else that would even begin to encourage such an idea. People during wins right now are still baffled because match flow lately is like: Win a game 500 to 100, turn around lose a game 100 to 500, then win again 500 to 100. No one is praising any of this, they're wondering why every match is lopsided win or lose, and why it would seem that the match maker is completely avoiding balanced matches.

    And furthermore no one believes there are magical fixes, which is the point of me writing this thread, to get community feedback to get a better idea of exactly where the problem or problems actually are right now. Then and then only, maybe, the community could toss Arenanet some real suggestions.

    Seriously though man, this isn't idle complaint lately. If you haven't logged in to play in awhile, go do it and run about 10 games in ranked. Then we'll see if you come back here feeling the same way.

    You, indeed, believe in a magical fix...

    “I feel like these problems are simply not difficult to resolve“

    By saying "magic fix" you imply magic as being something that isn't real that people only believe in.

    My friend there is a big difference between hoping to fix the impossible and fixing the neglected.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The random human factors of when people play and what skills levels they are at the times of logging in to play, that the devs have zero control over, is the main factor.

    Some of y’all want perfect matches every time you log in to play and that’s not gonna happen... But some of you expect that to happen and it’s unrealistic.

    Again...that isn't what is being said or implied; that we want perfect matches every time we log in. Like I said, sure, there will be people who log in and just expect, for some weird reason, to win all of their matches and for them to go perfectly...but that is exactly why those people typically rage themselves off of the game either for the day or just the foreseeable future. I wouldn't say that those types of players make up the majority, nor even the higher end of the Divisions in Ranked or ATs, but yes...they do exist.

    You seem to be stuck on this idea, a very big assumption, that players like myself or even @Trevor Boyer.6524 want to log in and just have "perfect" matches and that is very, very far from the case. I would say that is likely true for many who still play PvP to some extent, in fact I'd argue that many don't even take it seriously enough to warrant the assumption you're making; that they expect perfect matches when they log in. I think more often than not they are logging in and expecting to get a string of losses because of how things are working currently, but many try to, at the very least, have fun regardless. Thats how bad it has gotten, their expectations are that low for this game that they queue up and don't expect the matchmaking to actually, y'know, matchmake properly. I've actually seen several people on these forums just suggest to others whom asking about Ranked that they shouldn't take it very seriously, to just try and have fun with the PvP and not worry too much about climbing or anything.

    Thats why I feel like your assumption of the circumstances kind of gets thrown out the window.

    @Swagger.1459 saying that "people are expecting perfect match making" is kind of a convoluted response that changes the goal posts of what is actually being said here.

    What is being said that has been said several several times over in a dozen threads within the past couple weeks even, is that people want to know why the match making doesn't even make sense anymore. They want to know why this is happening:

    • win 500 to 100 where the game is so easy they could have AFK'd and still won
    • Then lose 100 to 500 where the game was so hard that it felt like nothing they did even mattered
    • and then go on a lose streak from p2 to gold 3 where every single match is beyond unreasonably difficult
    • and then turn around and go on a win streak to p2 where every match is so easy that it confuses them as to why it is even happening
    • and then a lose streak back down into bottom gold 3 again where it feels like the algorithm is purposely situating win and lose situations, as if it were actually avoiding making balanced matches all together.

    ^ That's what people are inquiring about. No one is expecting perfect match making, but they are asking for an attempt to fix the obviously broken as hell match making that we are currently experiencing.

    No, not “convoluted”, it’s pretty straight forward. It’s easy to see the pattern of complaints... Player get on teams that win and the matchmaker is good. Player get on teams that lose and the matchmaker is bad. Player thinks or knows they are good and assumes they should win most of the time, and if that doesn’t happen then it’s mostly the fault of the matchmaker and the devs should fix it...

    Regardless of time of play you get a mixed bag of amounts of players and skill levels. Or do you think that the exact same amount of players of the exact same skill levels are on 24/7 for the matchmaker to perfectly sort out teams that satisfy your preferred match results?

    The matchmaker has to sort in real time based off of the random amounts of players and skill levels that are queuing up... Devs can’t fix when people play, how good they are, what profession they use, how they play during a match... There are a ton of factors the devs don’t have control over and you think it’s some easy fix.

    For 2 decades I’ve played a number of games competitively as a support player, and in GW2 I’ve seen the least competitive mindsets overall. Instead of blaming the devs, blaming other players, and assuming there is some magical fix for all the random human factors, I suggest working on your personal pvp skills and get a team of friends to play and practice with to increase the odds of winning.

    Dude it's like you're not actually reading anything at all, or haven't since about 2018.

    There are very real problems with the match maker right now and not once have I heard a single player say "Hey I think the match maker is good I'm winning" or say anything else that would even begin to encourage such an idea. People during wins right now are still baffled because match flow lately is like: Win a game 500 to 100, turn around lose a game 100 to 500, then win again 500 to 100. No one is praising any of this, they're wondering why every match is lopsided win or lose, and why it would seem that the match maker is completely avoiding balanced matches.

    And furthermore no one believes there are magical fixes, which is the point of me writing this thread, to get community feedback to get a better idea of exactly where the problem or problems actually are right now. Then and then only, maybe, the community could toss Arenanet some real suggestions.

    Seriously though man, this isn't idle complaint lately. If you haven't logged in to play in awhile, go do it and run about 10 games in ranked. Then we'll see if you come back here feeling the same way.

    You, indeed, believe in a magical fix...

    “I feel like these problems are simply not difficult to resolve“

    By saying "magic fix" you imply magic as being something that isn't real that people only believe in.

    My friend there is a big difference between hoping to fix the impossible and fixing the neglected.

    You can ignore the facts all you want, but that won't change the facts of what I said. Instead of arguing to be right, I suggest absorbing the facts of the situation.

    You accused the devs of not caring or implementing a "not difficult" fix, yet it is you, and some other players here, who do not understand the fundamental issues period. You want a magic fix to factors the devs do not have control over, but you think they do and that's your mental flaw.

  • Shailyn Slay.7234Shailyn Slay.7234 Member ✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Shiyo.3578 Yeah see, just about every single player whom I've talked with that reports really unusual match making patterns that lead to really weird win & lose streaks and being like permanently stuck in this weird pattern, are all people who own first month release accounts. I mean seriously, I'm not just saying this. Even my main account is a first day release birth date.

    I'm curious as to who else is experiencing these patterns and what their account birth dates are. I am also curious as to if any first month birth dates claim to be experiencing very normal match making that isn't volatile at all.

    I think it's an important piece to the puzzle of figuring out what is going on here. I'm talking account birth dates, total games played, and a summary of that account's match making patterns. I'm really starting to believe that something went buggy somewhere along the lines with older accounts.

    But I dunno, it could have absolutely nothing to do with it in the end.

    My account is (pre-)release as well, and I often feel I have the same/similar problem. While I'm not a plat player (and probably never will be) I can play in gold and uusally still perform well. However, there are so many matches that are completely unwinnable (or already won) within 1-2 minutes - it's so obvious when a team (sometimes mine, sometimes now) just can not perform. One thing I noticed is that this effect is stronger (or maybe just feels worse?) when your rating is further away from where you could/should be - in (high) Silver I often feel like I couldn't impact games that much, in g1/g2 this already became better.

    I've also noticed that it's almost impossible for me get placed into Gold in any season - 1200 is the "default" rating (50/50 wins) and marks the silver/gold border. But even with 6/10 placement wins I will usually end up placed in silver 2/3. I often feel like the 'soft reset' of MMR that's suppsoed to happen between seasons either doesn't happen at all; is so soft that it might as well not exits; or somehow takes into account all seaons/ratings you ever had

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you understood normal distributions you'd know it's not a problem with the algorithm, it's a problem with the population.

    As for irregularities, some people decide to not play well because they just don't like you.

  • @Shailyn Slay.7234 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Shiyo.3578 Yeah see, just about every single player whom I've talked with that reports really unusual match making patterns that lead to really weird win & lose streaks and being like permanently stuck in this weird pattern, are all people who own first month release accounts. I mean seriously, I'm not just saying this. Even my main account is a first day release birth date.

    I'm curious as to who else is experiencing these patterns and what their account birth dates are. I am also curious as to if any first month birth dates claim to be experiencing very normal match making that isn't volatile at all.

    I think it's an important piece to the puzzle of figuring out what is going on here. I'm talking account birth dates, total games played, and a summary of that account's match making patterns. I'm really starting to believe that something went buggy somewhere along the lines with older accounts.

    But I dunno, it could have absolutely nothing to do with it in the end.

    One thing I noticed is that this effect is stronger (or maybe just feels worse?) when your rating is further away from where you could/should be - in (high) Silver I often feel like I couldn't impact games that much, in g1/g2 this already became better.

    ^ That's the kind of thing I'm talking about right there.

    Regardless of what rating margins a player plays at, they report that the matches feel more difficult during the lose streaks, even if they are really low in rating, as compared to when they are at higher ratings and on a win streak. That is the same effect that I mentioned of when I go on a lose streak from p2+ and it won't stop until I'm nearly into g2. During those phases like that, the matches are unbelievably difficult for absolutely no reason, which doesn't make sense.

    I mean we can go into discussion about bots and all that in the silver division, but I don't care what anyone says, your matches shouldn't be more difficult in silver division than in gold division. That doesn't make sense. I don't feel like I should have to explain all of the reasons why that doesn't make sense.

    This problem is not just for plat+ discussion. People from all ratings are experiencing this kind of match making that really really just doesn't make any sense. People can sit and talk about "oh volatility oh bad luck" but what people reporting here are hard patterns that happen predictably like clockwork. This is hardly luck or volatility. Some algorithm function is causing this stuff to happen, and now with low population it is creating a really unfavorable gaming experience with these forced lose streaks and granted win streaks. The matches rarely feel competitive anymore, but more so that you are being allowed a match to win and then a match to lose.

    I really think people would just be happier if the algorithm would stop with that, and would rather simply fix in average party rating vs. average party rating, with no concern for who is supposed to be going on a win streak back to 50% and who is supposed to be goin on a lose streak back to 50%. <- Because it is quite clearly doing this.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    You know what, I'm going to quote what he said here because I opened the thread referencing his thread but I didn't actually quote what he said. Incase anyone hasn't read his thread, this is what he said:

    @Vaan.3160 said:
    So I normally however around plat 2 within top 100 to 250 for the most part but this season my placement matches tanked me down to gold 3 due to 3(!) games with afks on my team, this was annoying but I just continued playing as normal finally ending up plat 2/3 and reaching rank 66 on leaderboards. From here on out it has been a string of constant losses, I have lost 15 of my last 20 games, every game a complete blowout (500-100, 500-50 etc), my team unable to rotate & insta feeding whereas the enemy team is absolutely destroying my team mates. I am often getting 3-4 top stats, no deaths etc but there is literally no way I can carry these teams, the odds are stacked dramatically against me it seems. I am playing the same class I always play (Sagebrand) and these games are not played all in a row, if I get 2 losses in a row I just stop at this point and try again tomorrow so there should be no tilting involved.

    I feel like the matchamking is just completely tanking my rating with nothing I can do to prevent it, there is a clear skill gap between my team and the enemy, it feels like gold 2 vs plat 2 which is obviously ending awfully for me. From experience I expect the matchmaking to get me down to a certain level and then ill end up getitng 10 wins in a row which isnt really ideal, it feels like you are just along for the ride with the matchmaking which really sucks, the games are absolutely not even teams. I am sure I will get the "git gud" comments but I am consistently in top 250 at a mininum so I do know how to play but I cannot win these absolute blowouts, I play the same class as always and there has been no balance patch to change how this class performs in the meta.

    TLDR Matchkmaking tanked me from plat 2/3 to gold with a string of 15 losses to 5 wins.

    We have people in here responding saying that anet has no control over human factors and this and that. Yeah I get that. But in this case in 2020, literally everyone is reporting the same experience. This isn't rando luck here, this is definitely an algorithm function. I don't know why low population is making it so much worse than it used to be, but w/e the problem is, it's time something was changed with the algorithm or to remove ranked and put the rewards into ATs. It's just getting to a point where the matches aren't fun anymore in ranked mode due to this ridiculous match making.

    Let me quote something I had said in a previous thread. An anet dev did show up and explain something like this to us at one point. What I wrote here is the best that I could remember what he said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    So years ago in the old forum, we had the programmer who worked on the algorithm explain this to us:

    The algorithm does not simply try to balance RED team average rating vs. BLUE team average rating. It actually has two phases where during phase 1 it gives you a match that you should be winning or that is balanced so to say. But if you win that match and are outperforming your current MMR, it then does phase 2 where it gives you a match that is difficult, that is against rating margins that are higher than you would normally go against, to give you a chance to climb MMR. And it toggles these phases back and forth until a player finds where they get stuck at.

    In years past with higher population, it resulted in matches that felt more like this:

    • RED 1600 - 1550 - You1500 - 1490 - 1480 vs. BLUE 1600 - 1550 - 1500 - 1490 - 1480, which is a completely balanced match outside of differences in team compositions. During this phase 1, it's taking all the players in queue who are supposed to be getting a normal match and putting them against each other, to find who the people are that are outperforming their current MMRs. Then it will put those people into a harder match in phase 2.
    • and then your hard match = RED You1515 - 1500 - 1490 - 1480 - 1470 vs. BLUE 1560 - 1515 - 1505 - 1490 - 1485, which is a phase 2 match where it has put you on a team of slightly lower rated guys who have been outperforming their MMRs, who are now against slightly higher MMRs of guys who have actually been underperforming at their current MMRs, so they have a chance to be challenged by guys who may be able to surpass them.

    But now with low population where there is a large skew of MMRs/Ratings being placed together, we get wonky stuff like this going on:

    • RED Naru & Helios - You1500 - 1390 - 1350 vs. BLUE 1600 - 1550 - 1400 - 1380 - 1360, where in this situation the BLUE team is having their phase 2. Then if you win this match that you are supposed to be winning, it turns right around and phase 2s you against all of those higher MMRs.

    So what's happening is that it IS actually stacking sides for wins and in a low population it definitely makes for obvious lopsided wins and lopsided loses. It's time they get someone to go back into the algorithm and remove that function that toggles the phase1 and phase2. It just needs to organically sort out who is doing well and who isn't, through sheerly matching average party rating vs. average party rating as close as it can get each round, with no buffer for who is being granted an expected win. That function DOES NOT work anymore in low population.

    ^ The algorithm actually does work that way, and now with low population, when it does those different phases it has limited players to choose from, which is largely why we are beginning to see massively lopsided splits. And tbh it just isn't fun because the games aren't competitive when that is happening. Every single person complaining about match making lately is saying the same exact thing: "I don't feel like I am able to effect the matches I am" because the games are becoming so tilted for those expected wins or losses, that it almost doesn't matter at all if a g2 player tries or not, when he's being put into a phase 2 and the other team has naru & helios on it and a p2 and a p1, yet the g2s team is stacked with gold. I mean come on, that's not fun at all. If they would just remove that function and MAKE the algorithm ONLY worry about average rating vs. average rating, it would be stacking the plats with high golds to go against legend players who have low golds, and that's the way it should be.

    I have no idea how removing that function would actually effect glicko, but if it could be done, it should be done when population gets low in a game that is using glicko.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    If you understood normal distributions you'd know it's not a problem with the algorithm, it's a problem with the population.

    As for irregularities, some people decide to not play well because they just don't like you.

    You can’t use sound reasoning in a Trevor thread where “I feel” holds more water than what is true.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The random human factors of when people play and what skills levels they are at the times of logging in to play, that the devs have zero control over, is the main factor.

    Some of y’all want perfect matches every time you log in to play and that’s not gonna happen... But some of you expect that to happen and it’s unrealistic.

    Again...that isn't what is being said or implied; that we want perfect matches every time we log in. Like I said, sure, there will be people who log in and just expect, for some weird reason, to win all of their matches and for them to go perfectly...but that is exactly why those people typically rage themselves off of the game either for the day or just the foreseeable future. I wouldn't say that those types of players make up the majority, nor even the higher end of the Divisions in Ranked or ATs, but yes...they do exist.

    You seem to be stuck on this idea, a very big assumption, that players like myself or even @Trevor Boyer.6524 want to log in and just have "perfect" matches and that is very, very far from the case. I would say that is likely true for many who still play PvP to some extent, in fact I'd argue that many don't even take it seriously enough to warrant the assumption you're making; that they expect perfect matches when they log in. I think more often than not they are logging in and expecting to get a string of losses because of how things are working currently, but many try to, at the very least, have fun regardless. Thats how bad it has gotten, their expectations are that low for this game that they queue up and don't expect the matchmaking to actually, y'know, matchmake properly. I've actually seen several people on these forums just suggest to others whom asking about Ranked that they shouldn't take it very seriously, to just try and have fun with the PvP and not worry too much about climbing or anything.

    Thats why I feel like your assumption of the circumstances kind of gets thrown out the window.

    @Swagger.1459 saying that "people are expecting perfect match making" is kind of a convoluted response that changes the goal posts of what is actually being said here.

    What is being said that has been said several several times over in a dozen threads within the past couple weeks even, is that people want to know why the match making doesn't even make sense anymore. They want to know why this is happening:

    • win 500 to 100 where the game is so easy they could have AFK'd and still won
    • Then lose 100 to 500 where the game was so hard that it felt like nothing they did even mattered
    • and then go on a lose streak from p2 to gold 3 where every single match is beyond unreasonably difficult
    • and then turn around and go on a win streak to p2 where every match is so easy that it confuses them as to why it is even happening
    • and then a lose streak back down into bottom gold 3 again where it feels like the algorithm is purposely situating win and lose situations, as if it were actually avoiding making balanced matches all together.

    ^ That's what people are inquiring about. No one is expecting perfect match making, but they are asking for an attempt to fix the obviously broken as hell match making that we are currently experiencing.

    No, not “convoluted”, it’s pretty straight forward. It’s easy to see the pattern of complaints... Player get on teams that win and the matchmaker is good. Player get on teams that lose and the matchmaker is bad. Player thinks or knows they are good and assumes they should win most of the time, and if that doesn’t happen then it’s mostly the fault of the matchmaker and the devs should fix it...

    Regardless of time of play you get a mixed bag of amounts of players and skill levels. Or do you think that the exact same amount of players of the exact same skill levels are on 24/7 for the matchmaker to perfectly sort out teams that satisfy your preferred match results?

    The matchmaker has to sort in real time based off of the random amounts of players and skill levels that are queuing up... Devs can’t fix when people play, how good they are, what profession they use, how they play during a match... There are a ton of factors the devs don’t have control over and you think it’s some easy fix.

    For 2 decades I’ve played a number of games competitively as a support player, and in GW2 I’ve seen the least competitive mindsets overall. Instead of blaming the devs, blaming other players, and assuming there is some magical fix for all the random human factors, I suggest working on your personal pvp skills and get a team of friends to play and practice with to increase the odds of winning.

    Dude it's like you're not actually reading anything at all, or haven't since about 2018.

    There are very real problems with the match maker right now and not once have I heard a single player say "Hey I think the match maker is good I'm winning" or say anything else that would even begin to encourage such an idea. People during wins right now are still baffled because match flow lately is like: Win a game 500 to 100, turn around lose a game 100 to 500, then win again 500 to 100. No one is praising any of this, they're wondering why every match is lopsided win or lose, and why it would seem that the match maker is completely avoiding balanced matches.

    And furthermore no one believes there are magical fixes, which is the point of me writing this thread, to get community feedback to get a better idea of exactly where the problem or problems actually are right now. Then and then only, maybe, the community could toss Arenanet some real suggestions.

    Seriously though man, this isn't idle complaint lately. If you haven't logged in to play in awhile, go do it and run about 10 games in ranked. Then we'll see if you come back here feeling the same way.

    You, indeed, believe in a magical fix...

    “I feel like these problems are simply not difficult to resolve“

    By saying "magic fix" you imply magic as being something that isn't real that people only believe in.

    My friend there is a big difference between hoping to fix the impossible and fixing the neglected.

    You can ignore the facts all you want, but that won't change the facts of what I said. Instead of arguing to be right, I suggest absorbing the facts of the situation.

    You accused the devs of not caring or implementing a "not difficult" fix, yet it is you, and some other players here, who do not understand the fundamental issues period. You want a magic fix to factors the devs do not have control over, but you think they do and that's your mental flaw.

    What facts, though? You're not actually showing any information to support your position, or explaining it, you're just saying something and declaring its a fact. You're also making a lot of assumptions as to the intent here, mostly under the basis of one particular assumption that people are just salty because they are losing. Normally I'd agree with you, thats just what the GW2 community is like, its their MO, but this thread is going about the effort and giving information and evidence as to what is potentially the issue with matchmaking to discuss it and why so many people get the idea that its failing somewhere.

    You're trying to write it off as if the opinions expressed here, elaborated on with sound enough reasoning and information, are just invalid and incorrect because you assume the incorrect intent of this thread.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The facts I already provided in this thread.

    Literally all you said was that it boils down to time of day; when people are logged in and playing, or as you called it the "human factor". You didn't explain it beyond that. No information, no reasoning, nothing to back it up. You just proclaimed it was fact, which sure...time of day is a factor, but I would never call it the main factor as you have claimed. The reason it wouldn't be the main factor is really because peak hours exist in most games, especially MMORPGs. These hours are usually from like 8 or 9 PM EST to 12 AM EST, thats when most players are typically online for most games.

    I think the idea that you need to take from this thread, and the points attempting to be made from it, are that all of these factors compound into an issue with the matchmaking system; or rather that the matchmaking algorithm stops doing its job correctly. It could be that the algorithm is just outdated and needs adjusting to account for the fact that, y'know, population is less, newer and older accounts have vastly different numbers of played games on them, time of day when any given player might queue, disparity between number of players within any given Division in Ranked, possibly what class they are queuing with.

    Maybe if the Steam release brings in an influx of players, and it would have to be a massive influx, that will play sPvP then maybe that increase in the population could potentially alleviate some of the issues. However I don't expect for that said influx to stick around, and I also don't think that it necessarily will alleviate some of the issues...even if slightly, if anything it might drive those newer players away for a variety of reasons...which is the unfortunateness that is ANet and how they handle this game.

  • vorpal.1497vorpal.1497 Member ✭✭✭

    fwiw, week 2 account, 12k matches, and I've always noticed the unwinnable streak behavior, followed by the landslide victories. Perhaps 1 in 10 matches is a close nailbiter. Pre MMR, I never really had the impression of streaks occuring, and close nailbiter matches were the norm.

    That said I know I dont belong in plat when I streak into it, so I dont think the current MMR system is getting this "wrong" in terms of ranking me to gold 2-ish. But the quality of matches has suffered badly since the old days, with the system trying to force you to a 50% w/l ratio via stacked/handicapped teams. I dont let it bother me anymore though since I stopped being a tryhard in a broken system, and just accept that we have a deeply flawed game.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KryTiKaL.3125

    “Literally all you said was that it boils down to time of day; when people are logged in and playing, or as you called it the "human factor".”

    I wrote a lot more than that. It’s still there to read.

  • The problem with the matchmaker is that it doesn't actually work.

    All the extra parameters Anet added to the algorithm is in response to fixing issues that crop up in mathematical distributions when it comes to using ELO in a multiplayer environment.

    Think about it. Your rating is based on the performance of 4 random strangers on a single win condition (winning or losing). The matchmaker prescribes you a number based on this single condition and it uses this to assess your skill level.

    Let's say you started fresh and the matchmaker has no previous data to access your skill level right? It will place you in a match that perhaps might have mostly silver players, but your "real" skill level is platinum. That means the matchmaker is treating you as if you had a silver level rating, and the other 5 players on the opposing team are up against a player that is much better than them.

    So now, when you inevitably win this game, the opposing 5 players lose a match and the matchmaker treats those players as if their skill level is higher than it should be, and the other 4 players on your team win a match, and now the matchmaker treats those players as if their skill is lower than it should be, even though those players all belong in their skill bracket, you were the outlier that cause their rating to be altered simply because you were there in the match playing at your real skill level.

    Amalgamate this process on the order of many games and many players at all different real skill levels, and you end up with players who's true skill level is maybe silver or bronze in gold 3 level games or higher, and other statistical anomalies.

    This is why the majority of players are in Gold 3. It's not because they are gold 2/3 level, it's because the matchmaker statistically has a higher chance of placing you there, whether you are experienced or not. This is why we see all kinds of skill levels in gold 3. All the extra parameters for setting up games is used as identifiers of your actual skill level so if it notices that you have played over 5000 games in your account life time, it will weigh that with your rating when determining which team you belong on when it goes to make a match.

    The entire problem is statistical in nature, because ELO doesn't work in multiplayer environments. It was designed for Chess and for a good reason.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the good/bad matchmaking tied to some accounts is completely random

    I have 2 accounts, one old that I started playing before HoT and one 2 years old.

    the new one has much harder games than the old one, I usually hang around 1480-1520, sometimes lower than that, never higher. No matchmaking glitch here, it's just the higher my skill can get me.

    The second account games become hell if I'm higher than 1380, at this rating i start being matched against top 50s and even top 10s, the game just feel unpleasant cuz I know i can't win agaist those ppl. One of the accounts I don't know which always get those matches 5 randoms vs 2 duos + 1 random.

    On the other hand the main account I can always squeeze myself into plat 1 with some offmeta build (core ele last season) without much effort, when I play against top 50s the teams are most times balanced, like my team is all plat, while their high plat duo has to carry gold 2s.

  • @vorpal.1497 said:
    fwiw, week 2 account, 12k matches, and I've always noticed the unwinnable streak behavior, followed by the landslide victories. Perhaps 1 in 10 matches is a close nailbiter. Pre MMR, I never really had the impression of streaks occuring, and close nailbiter matches were the norm.

    That said I know I dont belong in plat when I streak into it, so I dont think the current MMR system is getting this "wrong" in terms of ranking me to gold 2-ish. But the quality of matches has suffered badly since the old days, with the system trying to force you to a 50% w/l ratio via stacked/handicapped teams. I dont let it bother me anymore though since I stopped being a tryhard in a broken system, and just accept that we have a deeply flawed game.

    My biggest concern, is that there seems to be two different types of algorithm behavior for accounts, and really think about this here, as I am being very serious after viewing this and talking to players about it for nearly 9 years now:

    1. Behavior A - Exactly what you just described that you have experienced, which is the same thing I have always experienced on my main, as well as many many others. This is where the account's rating never seems to settle in the way that the algorithm notes say it is supposed to. This is where you are being shot back and forth between p2 and g2 all of the time, even if you play 300+ games in a ranked season, it never seems to hone in on where you actually are in terms of your real MMR vs. the community.
    2. Behavior B - This can even be viewed by watching leaderboards. Some people, including me on my alt, experience this behavior where it definitely hones in and does what the algorithm notes say it is supposed to be doing. You'll play about 30 to 50 games in a season and by that time you will find rather solid position and wins & losses will only ever knock you above or under that a very small margin of rating before you seem to return to it. In my example, my alt ALWAYS plays between quite exactly 1620 and 1580 solo queue. This has been happening for nearly 3 years now that I've been playing that alt.

    My main ALWAYS is forced to play between slightly above 1600+ bouncing back down into g2 bottom 1400 range on a lose streak, then allowed to play back to 1600+ on a win streak, before it seems to automated lose streak back to 1400 again. It happens like automated clockwork and is predictable at this point. My alt is always solidly playing between 1620 and 1580, never drops out of that range unless I'm openly playing with some rating that is a lot lower than I am, and in that case I make up for it.

    But these two algorithm types are definitely visible at this point in 2020, and there is no in between. Some accounts get solid match matching where they are able to play in a tight margin of rating which seems to strongly represent where they actually stand with their skill. But other accounts are ping ponged up and down the leaderboards on these tidal wave like shifts that most certainly feel automated or forced, and the volatility of those swings are massive like 200+ rating or something. <- That should not be happening if Glicko works the way it says it does. You can watch the leaderboards of anyone's name, and see these type A and type B patterns. Some guys play tightly at the same rating for weeks and months and 120 games, never rise or drop out of it, but then other guys are bouncing up and down 200 rating here and there all season long. What's important to note here is that the same people on the same accounts, experience this each and every season with no fluctuation in the pattern.

    At this point in 2020, I'd just like to know why. And tbh I'd like my main to get match making like my alt gets. Being ping ponged around between 1600+ and bottom 1400 each and every season endlessly is just tiring man and it feels unfair.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Rating is meaningless.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Rating is meaningless.

    Well the rating kinda does matter for having an ok match. The boundaries got washed off and I'm kinda getting tired of people not knowing what the kitten they are playing.
    I don't think it is my job to tell the thief to go and decap or the bunker to well bunker.

  • The problem is called alting: players placed in places where not belong (accidentaly caused by other alts or on purpose to play with a friend of lower rank or just for troling purpouse) that causes a butterfly efect on other players ranking and the "low population" thing that amplifies that efect

  • Just to add to this, might help a little bit to figure it out.

    I haven't touched GW2 for over 2 years, it wasn't even installed on my comp. Reactivated myself few weeks ago, started to play some unranked games to get familiar with the pvp balance once again.

    Last week I played my very first ranked game after 2+ years, it was the 1st placement game out of 10. When I got demolished in less than 2 seconds every fight, my teammates started to question my playstyle, whine, etc... and complaining that they can't see me on the ranked top... as it happened, my team had 1 legendary and 3 plat level player... + me, fresh guy in his very first placement game... and we fought against equally high level people. Again, it was my very first 1/10 PLACEMENT game after 2 years... how the heck did I get into a match like this??? So I can confirm that something is not right, might be not enough players? (it was around 1am PST on US servers).

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @kmark.8519 said:
    Just to add to this, might help a little bit to figure it out.

    I haven't touched GW2 for over 2 years, it wasn't even installed on my comp. Reactivated myself few weeks ago, started to play some unranked games to get familiar with the pvp balance once again.

    So I can confirm that something is not right, might be not enough players? (it was around 1am PST on US servers).

    Yes but this goes into what I was discussing about phase 1 and phase 2.

    There is no reason why the match maker can't take 1 if not 2 of the plats and place them on your team, and put you and someone else low on the legend team, to make the match more balanced. At this point due to phase 1 and 2 w/e glicko is doing, it does that where it places legends & plats vs. golds which not only isn't competitive in any way, but it's a complete waste of time and simply not entertaining for anyone.

  • If there was a much larger player base I don't think the issues we've seen would be as pronounced. My alt account w 200 matches is150 pts above my main account w/10k + matches played. I have to try hard supper carry on my main account. The alt account matches seem to be slightly more balanced.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2020

    @Zoricus.2439 said:
    If there was a much larger player base I don't think the issues we've seen would be as pronounced. My alt account w 200 matches is150 pts above my main account w/10k + matches played. I have to try hard supper carry on my main account. The alt account matches seem to be slightly more balanced.

    Let me clear something up, because you mention "seem to be more balanced" rather than saying "seem to be easier".

    Do the matches on the alt feel more balanced as in, not just the point outcomes, but over the course of say 10 matches, you are not seeing lopsided point results or even seeing lopsided results as in no clearly visual signs of one side being ultra dominant, nearly as often?

    ^ Because if that is the case, I'm telling you, this MMR effects match making under rating, total games played effects base MMR, is a function that just need to be reviewed. There is enough evidence adding up, from the players I've spoken with, that shows total games played base MMR inflation is causing some kind of janky problem in the match maker.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Stop blaming the matchmaker. Sometimes your team will win. Sometimes your team will lose. Q up with some friends that you play and practice with so you can increase your odds of winning.

  • Ok, I'm going to chime in here...and say...I always enjoy meme'ing in the gold 1 to plat 1 range especially on alt accounts.....as of late....I have noticed a definite uptick in the amount of "alts" some of who I know exactly who they are....and then others that I can tell just by playing them are clearly higher ranked players on alts playing down in dredges of ranked with me.....I personally think people are sick of playing competitive and just like to not give a kitten on an alt account and play in ez mode tiers or tiers where they don't really give a kitten. Also if you see someone you like maybe you try a little harder :)

  • Your post is very long and accurate, congrats on your patience. Everything you said is out of experience and whoever says non sense such as “improve” and “don’t blame the matchmaking” clearly hasn’t read the thread.
    I am no veteran but I encountered all the problems you are talking about, either by experiencing it myself or hearing it from other friends/veterans. Something is wrong but we of course can’t put a word on what it is.
    Also, for those saying that wintrading and alt manipulation doesn’t occur that often, I completely disagree. People have found smart ways of not being discovered over time, but it happens everyday. Just check a few of the EU players in the leaderboard and if you say that everyone of them are legit I will laugh.

    I would also like to point out another problem which is veteran players with lots of alts in the leaderboard. Why? It’s not fair to take another spot “just because” or for not letting other players below you taking it. It’s okay to have alts to play without being worried about the rating. It’s not okay having more than one account on the leaderboard at THE END of the season. (This is quite random rant, wanted to include it to not create a single thread myself)

  • Excursion.9752Excursion.9752 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For me I since there are too many variables to keep track of but I consider a good game where both teams achieve over 330.
    Matchmaking in all games are pretty random I've found. They have always been more miss than hit.

    My suggestion is have no matchmaking for unranked just have players que up as soon as there are enough players to play, start a match. If a person drops fill it in with someone who is waiting in que. Keep the match going after a match has been won take those people let them select their next map and move on. Randomize the teams each match from that group of players. People that want to play together will need to leave and reque as a unit to guarantee that they will be on the same team.

    For ranked nothing is ever going to be perfect here.
    I was thinking a performance based system based on your match statistics. I think we need to get away from the Win loss mentality here and start rating people on their actual play. Lets say all the ratings were point based off performance.

    • If you Kill a person that is a higher ratting than you its worth more than lets say a plat player kills a bronze
    • caps
    • decaps
    • How long you fight on point
    • How much you healed your team for
    • Resurrections
    • Top stats awarded
    • strips
    • cleanses
    • If your team wins

    All of these things would increase your rating.

    I say stop punishing everyone for the loss. The people who performed poorly would not get many points. If we didn't have a system that took us back when we lose a match may inspire more positive play. This may even clear up some of the "toxic" behavior because the people doing well and hanging in there will still get some credit.

    As people move up in points they will cross the different rating thresholds and the poor performers will not be able to cross them until they do get better because it will be hard for them to obtain points. As for the placement matches accumulate all the points earned through the matches then multiply by 20% and drop them into their ratting based on where they are in the system.

    The actual match maker could stay the same in creating matches because you don't want people not to find a match ever because their rating is to high or low. But now the twist if you got grouped with a sub par team it would not effect you as much as it used to as long as your trying and performing well.

    Of course there would be a concern about bots in a system like this. I say have a captcha when you click any matchmaker. Then Anet would not have to write back end processes to monitor a players behavior.

    This is my best attempt at correcting this system rip it apart if you must but I feel its a pretty decent solution.

                                                              There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you
    
  • i wonder how games with similar match making systems fare, such as: csgo, team fortress 2, and dota underlords. the failure might be mmorpg related with i'm guessing the complexity as the main culprit. i don't put much stock into complex match making algorithms since the more complex it is the more ways it can fail or be manipulated. i also wonder how other games with their own self made algorithms are doing, and if any mmorpgs with complex algorithms are doing better then gw2.

    Te lazla otstara.