Make 2v2 and 3v3 Ranked and make conquest un ranked

[Arctarius.2649]

As someone who has played over 4K ranked games, I strongly feel that these are the superior game modes especially in today’s GW2. With the amount of AOE damage and condo damage stacking in team fights, I feel the barrier to entry in PvP has become too high. Unless you have years of time playing the game and understand what’s going on when you get in team fights.. it is actually just a mess. 2v2 and 3v3 fix this problem naturally by simply removing extra players which cause more skill clutter and confusion. It’s just too much. 2v2 and 3v3 is also just more fun, I mean hell.. we play pvp to you know.. PvP not capture points and get forced to stand in circles with classes that produce aoe’s so big that you are forced to just get wrecked. If new players come in and see pvp in its current state. I fear it willl never grow.. and with steam right around the corner there really isn’t much time for change. The sooner the better.I genuinely just wanna see this game grow, and with how well pvp does in WoW with its 2v2’s.. why the hell cant GW2, the game with the best combat system on the market do better?

[Downstate.4697]

They need to remove res utilities and support amulets if you want 3v3 to be fun

[TeqkOneStylez.8047]

2vs2 is better than 3 vs 3

[UNOwen.7132]

That would throw balance way out of wack, render a fair few skills and classes utterly irrelevant and overall be a major mess. 2v2 is fun to mess around, but making it the main gamemode would be ill-advised.

[Avatar.3568]

Yeah.....N9

[true.1049]

no, thanks for asking

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:That would throw balance way out of wack, render a fair few skills and classes utterly irrelevant and overall be a major mess. 2v2 is fun to mess around, but making it the main gamemode would be ill-advised.

And things aren't, and haven't already been, way out of wack already? For years? ANet does splits and balances pretty much entirely around how something might affect Conquest as a game mode, how oppressive something might be on point as opposed to taking many other factors into account. Look at how minimally Thief mobility has been touched, even with some of the changes they did to Initiative costs. Why do you think 2v2 and 3v3 TDM are perceived the way they are after people got their hands on them? That they are good to mess around in off season because of how "out of wack" this game is when, y'know, the primary focus is fighting, especially when cooperating with one another. They balance the combat around fighting in a confined space, aka inside capture points, as opposed to taking the many, many factors into account that come with almost any MMORPG PvP combat. Thats why Rampage on Warrior was one of the most oppressive Elites in sPvP, and even right now despite Warrior's current unfortunate state Rampage is still like one of the only good things it can bring into sPvP. Thats why Scourge for a good chunk of time was so oppressive, because of the amount of AoE it could pump onto a singular point, why Reaper is so oppressive with its damage and the wide area it covers paired with other effects that Necro puts out like boon rip/corrupt, why Grenade Holos are so oppressive with Explosive Entrance and how it pairs with Grenade Kit (which is all AoE attacks). Conquest, as a game mode, is fundamentally flawed because of how outdated its concepts are to the game and how classes have evolved over time.

GW2 has great combat mechanics, probably some of the best in the genre in the western region save for BDO (or soon Lost Ark), but the way they handle PvP in GW2 is probably one of the most abysmal I have seen in an MMORPG and its why people who love PvPing continue to leave the game to look for something better, or they just accept how terrible things are and suffer through it in the hopes of trying to have fun.

Objective based competitive modes in an MMORPG like GW2 just...don't work. People might want them to, people might think they have more depth and complexity to them and they are right, they do...but in any MMORPG with all these things like specializations, traits, weapon skills, utility skills, cooldowns, boons, buffs, debuffs, conditions, DoT effects, armor enhancements, runes, sigils, enchantments, etc when you add in an entire other level of complexity beyond those things in the form of a game mode with objectives outside of just players fighting one another that makes balancing exponentially more difficult and we can visibly see that with GW2 and how poorly it has gone, or at the very least how poorly ANet has handled it.

There are even other examples of it being considered "less competitive" in a couple of other MMORPGs; WoW battlegrounds have their ranked variant and they are considered less competitive than Arenas, Lost Ark GvG is considered less competitive than their 3v3 TDM Arenas. FF14 doesn't accommodate ranked PvP (not that you'd want it to), neither does ESO, BDO kind of does but not in such an official form, SWTOR doesn't either (not that you'd want it to). Destiny 2 does, and it is objective based...but its also a shooter and follows an entirely different set of rules and guidelines per its genre; not to mention Destiny 2's most competitive mode, Trials of Osiris, only ever uses Elimination which is a 3v3 TDM, no respawn, gametype. Now...I like objective based PvP, so don't take this as me just disliking it as a whole, I loved it in GvG in GW1 as well as in some of the other modes in GW1, I like it in plenty of other games...it just does not work with certain types of MMORPGs and GW2 is one of them. ANet dropped the ball and PvP has been suffering because of it.

I apologize for the lengthy post, it gets away from me more often than I'd like.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

no ty , put 2vs2 / 3vs3 unrank ... and not stop conquest season

[uberkingkong.8041]

DisagreeHow about5v5 unranked2v2 unranked3v3 unranked

8v8 ranked

[UNOwen.7132]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:That would throw balance

way

out of wack, render a fair few skills and classes utterly irrelevant and overall be a major mess. 2v2 is fun to mess around, but making it the main gamemode would be ill-advised.

And things aren't, and haven't already been,

way

out of wack already? For years? ANet does splits and balances pretty much entirely around how something might affect Conquest as a game mode, how oppressive something might be

on point

as opposed to taking many other factors into account. Look at how minimally Thief mobility has been touched, even with some of the changes they did to Initiative costs. Why do you think 2v2 and 3v3 TDM are perceived the way they are after people got their hands on them? That they are good to mess around in off season because of how "out of wack" this game is when, y'know, the primary focus is

fighting

, especially when cooperating with one another. They balance the combat around fighting in a confined space, aka inside capture points, as opposed to taking the many, many factors into account that come with almost any MMORPG PvP combat. Thats why Rampage on Warrior was one of the most oppressive Elites in sPvP, and even right now despite Warrior's current unfortunate state Rampage is

still

like one of the only good things it can bring into sPvP. Thats why Scourge for a good chunk of time was so oppressive, because of the amount of AoE it could pump onto a singular point, why Reaper is so oppressive with its damage and the wide area it covers paired with other effects that Necro puts out like boon rip/corrupt, why Grenade Holos are so oppressive with Explosive Entrance and how it pairs with Grenade Kit (which is all AoE attacks). Conquest, as a game mode, is fundamentally

flawed

because of how outdated its concepts are to the game and how classes have evolved over time.

Compared to 2v2/3v3? No, they indeed havent. And yes, of course when they balance for sPvP, they balance for conquest. Because sPvP is conquest. And thief mobility hasnt been touched not because of conquest (its a lot weaker in 2v2/3v3, which is why thief is unplayable in those gamemodes), its not touched because its what thief is about. Plus if you touched that, youd have to make so many buffs and compensations that its really not worth the effort. Also, what do you mean by "Why do you think 2v2 and 3v3 TDM are perceived the way they are after people got their hands on them"? They were percieved as fun, but poorly balanced and not something you want the main gamemode to be. Also, do you think scourge or Rampage were less broken in 2v2/3v3? Because they really, really were not.

GW2 has great combat mechanics, probably some of the best in the genre in the western region save for BDO (or soon Lost Ark), but the way they handle PvP in GW2 is probably one of the most abysmal I have seen in an MMORPG and its why people who love PvPing continue to leave the game to look for something better, or they just accept how terrible things are and suffer through it in the hopes of trying to have fun.

Cant say I agree. GW2s PvP is better than the other games for me in part because of conquest. 2v2/3v3 are just not very interesting. Youre basically playing only one part of conquest, lacking depth.

Objective based competitive modes in an MMORPG like GW2 just...don't work. People might want them to, people might think they have more depth and complexity to them and they are right, they do...but in any MMORPG with all these things like specializations, traits, weapon skills, utility skills, cooldowns, boons, buffs, debuffs, conditions, DoT effects, armor enhancements, runes, sigils, enchantments, etc when you add in an entire other level of complexity beyond those things in the form of a game mode with objectives outside of just players fighting one another that makes balancing exponentially more difficult and we can visibly see that with GW2 and how poorly it has gone, or at the very least how poorly ANet has handled it.

Conquest isnt the reason for poor balancing, believe me. Its not like 2v2/3v3 was any more balanced, or like TDM in other MMOs is at all balanced. The issue comes down to making major mistakes in the balancing.

There are even other examples of it being considered "less competitive" in a couple of other MMORPGs; WoW battlegrounds have their ranked variant and they are considered less competitive than Arenas, Lost Ark GvG is considered less competitive than their 3v3 TDM Arenas. FF14 doesn't accommodate ranked PvP (not that you'd want it to), neither does ESO, BDO kind of does but not in such an official form, SWTOR doesn't either (not that you'd want it to). Destiny 2 does, and it is objective based...but its also a shooter and follows an entirely different set of rules and guidelines per its genre; not to mention Destiny 2's most competitive mode, Trials of Osiris, only ever uses Elimination which is a 3v3 TDM, no respawn, gametype. Now...I like objective based PvP, so don't take this as me just disliking it as a whole, I loved it in GvG in GW1 as well as in some of the other modes in GW1, I like it in plenty of other games...it just does not work with certain types of MMORPGs and GW2 is one of them. ANet dropped the ball and PvP has been suffering because of it.

Half of those Im not particularly familiar, but BDO doesnt have TDM either. And for most of them, I imagine TDM is considered "more competitive" because its the only one being actively balanced. On the other hand, if both are balanced (rarity, I know), TDM tends to be the less balanced one, as we saw in GW1 as far as I can recall.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Arctarius.2649 said:As someone who has played over 4K ranked games, I strongly feel that these are the superior game modes especially in today’s GW2. With the amount of AOE damage and condo damage stacking in team fights, I feel the barrier to entry in PvP has become too high. Unless you have years of time playing the game and understand what’s going on when you get in team fights.. it is actually just a mess. 2v2 and 3v3 fix this problem naturally by simply removing extra players which cause more skill clutter and confusion. It’s just too much. 2v2 and 3v3 is also just more fun, I mean hell.. we play pvp to you know.. PvP not capture points and get forced to stand in circles with classes that produce aoe’s so big that you are forced to just get wrecked. If new players come in and see pvp in its current state. I fear it willl never grow.. and with steam right around the corner there really isn’t much time for change. The sooner the better.I genuinely just wanna see this game grow, and with how well pvp does in WoW with its 2v2’s.. why the hell cant GW2, the game with the best combat system on the market do better?

GW2 PvP is balanced for conquest. 2v2 and 3v3 are AoE-spam bunkerfests, only a fraction of classes can actually compete. NO.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

Compared to 2v2/3v3? No, they indeed havent. And yes, of course when they balance for sPvP, they balance for conquest. Because sPvP is conquest. And thief mobility hasnt been touched not because of conquest (its a lot weaker in 2v2/3v3, which is why thief is unplayable in those gamemodes), its not touched because its what thief is about. Plus if you touched that, youd have to make so many buffs and compensations that its really not worth the effort. Also, what do you mean by "Why do you think 2v2 and 3v3 TDM are perceived the way they are after people got their hands on them"? They were percieved as fun, but poorly balanced and not something you want the main gamemode to be. Also, do you think scourge or Rampage were less broken in 2v2/3v3? Because they really, really were not.

First off, my mention of thief mobility is more of pointing out that they probably rotate the best out of any other class because of their mobility. Its still the best in the game, despite thieves likely complaining about any hits to initiative cost, so if they didn't have that mobility they probably wouldn't even be used in sPvP, which is unfortunate. Also no I don't think Scourge or Rampage were less broken in 2v2/3v3, that wasn't the point of bringing that up. My point is that because of balance, rightfully so because it is the Ranked gametype, being so centered around Conquest it hasn't actually been a boon to this games PvP or the balance between classes.

Cant say I agree. GW2s PvP is better than the other games for me in part because of conquest. 2v2/3v3 are just not very interesting. Youre basically playing only one part of conquest, lacking depth.

Now see thats fine, everyone has their own tastes but I wouldn't say that TDM lacks depth because of a lack of a map objective. This games combat is a hybrid of tab target and action combat, there is plenty of depth to that alone that makes smallscale fights fast paced and have plenty of depth to try and secure a win. There is coordination either via voice or pings or ingame chat, peeling for your teammates depending on how heavily they are being pressured, them peeling for you, focusing pressure and switching targets as necessary. There is more depth to deathmatch gametypes than I think people realize, especially in a game like GW2 with its combat.

Conquest isnt the reason for poor balancing, believe me. Its not like 2v2/3v3 was any more balanced, or like TDM in other MMOs is at all balanced. The issue comes down to making major mistakes in the balancing.

Again, I'm saying 2v2/3v3 is imbalanced because of Conquest. I'm saying any time a fight beyond the restrictive environment of Conquest, and potentially even sPvP, the glaring issues with not only balance but this games handling of PvP get shown even more brightly. I think it also sort of speaks volumes when one of the ideal tactics in Conquest is rather than fight an unfavorable matchup you just rotate away and to a completely different part of the map (aka a different point) to potentially outnumber the enemy team.

Half of those Im not particularly familiar, but BDO doesnt have TDM either. And for most of them, I imagine TDM is considered "more competitive" because its the only one being actively balanced. On the other hand, if both are balanced (rarity, I know), TDM tends to be the less balanced one, as we saw in GW1 as far as I can recall.

BDO does have TDM, its called Arena of Arsha. Red Battlefield is also a form of TDM, but with that whole points system. Team with most points (from kills) wins. Also I think you might be recalling GW1 a little differently than I do...practically all of those PvP modes were played, including Random and Team Arenas and they balanced things pretty decently. Random Arenas sort of suffered from the same issue GW2 has in that you can't really pick your team comp, which is very important when you're talking about anything 5v5 related or in this case it was 4v4, and Team Arenas got replaced by Codex Arena in 2009 which is a sort of "fixed deck" gametype.

Now I don't at all believe any game can achieve perfect balance, in fact every game will always have their own problems that hurt balance in some way and I'm saying that I feel like Conquest is probably what hurts PvP the most on GW2 because in 2v2 or 3v3 TDM, the moment the game let people (mostly) build their own team comp...the sheer oppressive nature of some classes and their kits came out even stronger. The moment combat was prioritized in sPvP, as the only thing you did, thats why we saw class "synergy" to a level that it was just cheesy.

[UNOwen.7132]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

Compared to 2v2/3v3? No, they indeed havent. And yes, of course when they balance for sPvP, they balance for conquest. Because sPvP is conquest. And thief mobility hasnt been touched not because of conquest (its a lot weaker in 2v2/3v3, which is why thief is unplayable in those gamemodes), its not touched because its what thief is about. Plus if you touched that, youd have to make so many buffs and compensations that its really not worth the effort. Also, what do you mean by "Why do you think 2v2 and 3v3 TDM are perceived the way they are after people got their hands on them"? They were percieved as fun, but poorly balanced and not something you want the main gamemode to be. Also, do you think scourge or Rampage were

less

broken in 2v2/3v3? Because they really,

really

were not.

First off, my mention of thief mobility is more of pointing out that they probably rotate the best out of any other class because of their mobility. Its still the best in the game, despite thieves likely complaining about any hits to initiative cost, so if they didn't have that mobility they probably wouldn't even be used in sPvP, which is unfortunate. Also no I don't think Scourge or Rampage were less broken in 2v2/3v3, that wasn't the point of bringing that up. My point is that because of balance, rightfully so because it is the Ranked gametype, being so centered around Conquest it hasn't actually been a boon to this games PvP or the balance between classes.

I mean, yeah they do. Their mobility wasnt at all touched after all. You are right that if thief didnt have that mobility they wouldnt be used in sPvP. But thats how it goes.

Cant say I agree. GW2s PvP is better than the other games for me in part because of conquest. 2v2/3v3 are just not very interesting. Youre basically playing only one part of conquest, lacking depth.

Now see thats fine, everyone has their own tastes but I wouldn't say that TDM lacks depth because of a lack of a map objective. This games combat is a hybrid of tab target and action combat, there is plenty of depth to that alone that makes smallscale fights fast paced and have plenty of depth to try and secure a win. There is coordination either via voice or pings or ingame chat, peeling for your teammates depending on how heavily they are being pressured, them peeling for you, focusing pressure and switching targets as necessary. There is more depth to deathmatch gametypes than I think people realize, especially in a game like GW2 with its combat.

The problem is that any build or playstyle that doesnt focus on either killing the enemy as fast as possible or keeping your teammates alive simply cant exist in 2v2/3v3. Things like roamers vanish entirely. And rotations, a major aspect of conquest, are likewise nowhere to be seen in 2v2/3v3. Instead its just kind of a deathball scenario.

Conquest isnt the reason for poor balancing, believe me. Its not like 2v2/3v3 was any more balanced, or like TDM in other MMOs is at all balanced. The issue comes down to making major mistakes in the balancing.

Again, I'm saying 2v2/3v3 is imbalanced because of Conquest. I'm saying any time a fight beyond the restrictive environment of Conquest, and potentially even sPvP, the glaring issues with not only balance but this games handling of PvP get shown even more brightly. I think it also sort of speaks volumes when one of the ideal tactics in Conquest is rather than fight an unfavorable matchup you just rotate away and to a completely different part of the map (aka a different point) to potentially outnumber the enemy team.

Half of those Im not particularly familiar, but BDO doesnt have TDM either. And for most of them, I imagine TDM is considered "more competitive" because its the only one being actively balanced. On the other hand, if both are balanced (rarity, I know), TDM tends to be the less balanced one, as we saw in GW1 as far as I can recall.

BDO does have TDM, its called Arena of Arsha. Red Battlefield is also a form of TDM, but with that whole points system. Team with most points (from kills) wins. Also I think you might be recalling GW1 a little differently than I do...practically all of those PvP modes were played, including Random and Team Arenas and they balanced things pretty decently. Random Arenas sort of suffered from the same issue GW2 has in that you can't really pick your team comp, which is very important when you're talking about anything 5v5 related or in this case it was 4v4, and Team Arenas got replaced by Codex Arena in 2009 which is a sort of "fixed deck" gametype.

Isnt Arena of Arsha like a weird guild thing which is more akin to the battle arena in guild halls than sPvP? And sure they were all played, but from what I recall TDM were generally considered less competitive and more for fun.

Now I don't at all believe any game can achieve perfect balance, in fact every game will always have their own problems that hurt balance in some way and I'm saying that I feel like Conquest is probably what hurts PvP the most on GW2 because in 2v2 or 3v3 TDM, the moment the game let people (mostly) build their own team comp...the sheer oppressive nature of some classes and their kits came out even stronger. The moment combat was prioritized in sPvP, as the only thing you did, thats why we saw class "synergy" to a level that it was just cheesy.

So youre saying conquest hurts PvP because balancing around it ... broke 2v2/3v3? Im not sure I follow.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

i prefer 2vs2 or 3vs3 ranked

as it's eazier to win when your better playeron 5vs5 even if you win 1 point, if you have 2-3ppl it's much harder to win even if you win 1 point 24/7h, cuz you need your team to take control of secound one or decap 3 point

for 5vs5 you need que as 2-3ppl if you want have better gameon 2vs2 3vs3 your much more of win factor

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Compared to 2v2/3v3? No, they indeed havent. And yes, of course when they balance for sPvP, they balance for conquest. Because sPvP is conquest. And thief mobility hasnt been touched not because of conquest (its a lot weaker in 2v2/3v3, which is why thief is unplayable in those gamemodes), its not touched because its what thief is about. Plus if you touched that, youd have to make so many buffs and compensations that its really not worth the effort. Also, what do you mean by "Why do you think 2v2 and 3v3 TDM are perceived the way they are after people got their hands on them"? They were percieved as fun, but poorly balanced and not something you want the main gamemode to be. Also, do you think scourge or Rampage were

less

broken in 2v2/3v3? Because they really,

really

were not.

First off, my mention of thief mobility is more of pointing out that they probably rotate the best out of any other class because of their mobility. Its still the best in the game, despite thieves likely complaining about any hits to initiative cost, so if they didn't have that mobility they probably wouldn't even be used in sPvP, which is unfortunate. Also no I don't think Scourge or Rampage were less broken in 2v2/3v3, that wasn't the point of bringing that up. My point is that because of balance, rightfully so because it is the Ranked gametype, being so centered around Conquest it hasn't actually been a boon to this games PvP or the balance between classes.

I mean, yeah they do. Their mobility wasnt at all touched after all. You are right that if thief didnt have that mobility they wouldnt be used in sPvP. But thats how it goes.

Cant say I agree. GW2s PvP is better than the other games for me in part because of conquest. 2v2/3v3 are just not very interesting. Youre basically playing only one part of conquest, lacking depth.

Now see thats fine, everyone has their own tastes but I wouldn't say that TDM lacks depth because of a lack of a map objective. This games combat is a hybrid of tab target and action combat, there is plenty of depth to that alone that makes smallscale fights fast paced and have plenty of depth to try and secure a win. There is coordination either via voice or pings or ingame chat, peeling for your teammates depending on how heavily they are being pressured, them peeling for you, focusing pressure and switching targets as necessary. There is more depth to deathmatch gametypes than I think people realize, especially in a game like GW2 with its combat.

The problem is that any build or playstyle that doesnt focus on either killing the enemy as fast as possible or keeping your teammates alive simply cant exist in 2v2/3v3. Things like roamers vanish entirely. And rotations, a major aspect of conquest, are likewise nowhere to be seen in 2v2/3v3. Instead its just kind of a deathball scenario.

Conquest isnt the reason for poor balancing, believe me. Its not like 2v2/3v3 was any more balanced, or like TDM in other MMOs is at all balanced. The issue comes down to making major mistakes in the balancing.

Again, I'm saying 2v2/3v3 is imbalanced because of Conquest. I'm saying any time a fight beyond the restrictive environment of Conquest, and potentially even sPvP, the glaring issues with not only balance but this games handling of PvP get shown even more brightly. I think it also sort of speaks volumes when one of the ideal tactics in Conquest is rather than fight an unfavorable matchup you just rotate away and to a completely different part of the map (aka a different point) to potentially outnumber the enemy team.

Half of those Im not particularly familiar, but BDO doesnt have TDM either. And for most of them, I imagine TDM is considered "more competitive" because its the only one being actively balanced. On the other hand, if both are balanced (rarity, I know), TDM tends to be the less balanced one, as we saw in GW1 as far as I can recall.

BDO does have TDM, its called Arena of Arsha. Red Battlefield is also a form of TDM, but with that whole points system. Team with most points (from kills) wins. Also I think you might be recalling GW1 a little differently than I do...practically all of those PvP modes were played, including Random and Team Arenas and they balanced things pretty decently. Random Arenas sort of suffered from the same issue GW2 has in that you can't really pick your team comp, which is very important when you're talking about anything 5v5 related or in this case it was 4v4, and Team Arenas got replaced by Codex Arena in 2009 which is a sort of "fixed deck" gametype.

Isnt Arena of Arsha like a weird guild thing which is more akin to the battle arena in guild halls than sPvP? And sure they were all played, but from what I recall TDM were generally considered less competitive and more for fun.

Now I don't at all believe any game can achieve perfect balance, in fact every game will always have their own problems that hurt balance in some way and I'm saying that I feel like Conquest is probably what hurts PvP the most on GW2 because in 2v2 or 3v3 TDM, the moment the game let people (mostly) build their own team comp...the sheer oppressive nature of some classes and their kits came out even stronger. The moment

combat

was prioritized in sPvP, as the only thing you did, thats why we saw class "synergy" to a level that it was just cheesy.

So youre saying conquest hurts PvP because balancing around it ... broke 2v2/3v3? Im not sure I follow.

No, I'm saying that the issues with actual combat in the game become explicitly more visible when the only priority in a PvP match is "kill the other team". I'm saying that Conquest doesn't put combat as a priority, it puts rotating point captures and leaving unfavorable matchups as a priority. Look at the meta right now, the most optimal classes use builds that are either extremely oppressive with AoE damage (nade holo, reaper), can survive almost forever (tempest, firebrand), or can skip across the map in 3 seconds (thief).

I won't delude myself to desire the balance to always have every class be viable in sPvP, thats just not realistic, but ANet clearly does not have the capacity to know how to balance classes with how GW2 works with its combat with Conquest as the primary competitive mode. It was alright back when the game wasn't so bloated with class mechanics...but that is very far from the case 8 years later, especially with their skills team being very adamantly against reworking things due to how it might affect PvE. Or at the very least they just make it that much more difficult for PvP balance to be more effectively handled, especially when it comes to Conquest. Conquest just adds a whole other layer, or layers, that they have to consider when doing anything with skill or trait reworks or changes and they haven't exactly done a great job of it which is exactly how we got Explosive Entrance and other problematic traits over the years.

[UNOwen.7132]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Compared to 2v2/3v3? No, they indeed havent. And yes, of course when they balance for sPvP, they balance for conquest. Because sPvP is conquest. And thief mobility hasnt been touched not because of conquest (its a lot weaker in 2v2/3v3, which is why thief is unplayable in those gamemodes), its not touched because its what thief is about. Plus if you touched that, youd have to make so many buffs and compensations that its really not worth the effort. Also, what do you mean by "Why do you think 2v2 and 3v3 TDM are perceived the way they are after people got their hands on them"? They were percieved as fun, but poorly balanced and not something you want the main gamemode to be. Also, do you think scourge or Rampage were

less

broken in 2v2/3v3? Because they really,

really

were not.

First off, my mention of thief mobility is more of pointing out that they probably rotate the best out of any other class because of their mobility. Its still the best in the game, despite thieves likely complaining about any hits to initiative cost, so if they didn't have that mobility they probably wouldn't even be used in sPvP, which is unfortunate. Also no I don't think Scourge or Rampage were less broken in 2v2/3v3, that wasn't the point of bringing that up. My point is that because of balance, rightfully so because it is the Ranked gametype, being so centered around Conquest it hasn't actually been a boon to this games PvP or the balance between classes.

I mean, yeah they do. Their mobility wasnt at all touched after all. You are right that if thief didnt have that mobility they wouldnt be used in sPvP. But thats how it goes.

Cant say I agree. GW2s PvP is better than the other games for me in part because of conquest. 2v2/3v3 are just not very interesting. Youre basically playing only one part of conquest, lacking depth.

Now see thats fine, everyone has their own tastes but I wouldn't say that TDM lacks depth because of a lack of a map objective. This games combat is a hybrid of tab target and action combat, there is plenty of depth to that alone that makes smallscale fights fast paced and have plenty of depth to try and secure a win. There is coordination either via voice or pings or ingame chat, peeling for your teammates depending on how heavily they are being pressured, them peeling for you, focusing pressure and switching targets as necessary. There is more depth to deathmatch gametypes than I think people realize, especially in a game like GW2 with its combat.

The problem is that any build or playstyle that doesnt focus on either killing the enemy as fast as possible or keeping your teammates alive simply cant exist in 2v2/3v3. Things like roamers vanish entirely. And rotations, a major aspect of conquest, are likewise nowhere to be seen in 2v2/3v3. Instead its just kind of a deathball scenario.

Conquest isnt the reason for poor balancing, believe me. Its not like 2v2/3v3 was any more balanced, or like TDM in other MMOs is at all balanced. The issue comes down to making major mistakes in the balancing.

Again, I'm saying 2v2/3v3 is imbalanced because of Conquest. I'm saying any time a fight beyond the restrictive environment of Conquest, and potentially even sPvP, the glaring issues with not only balance but this games handling of PvP get shown even more brightly. I think it also sort of speaks volumes when one of the ideal tactics in Conquest is rather than fight an unfavorable matchup you just rotate away and to a completely different part of the map (aka a different point) to potentially outnumber the enemy team.

Half of those Im not particularly familiar, but BDO doesnt have TDM either. And for most of them, I imagine TDM is considered "more competitive" because its the only one being actively balanced. On the other hand, if both are balanced (rarity, I know), TDM tends to be the less balanced one, as we saw in GW1 as far as I can recall.

BDO does have TDM, its called Arena of Arsha. Red Battlefield is also a form of TDM, but with that whole points system. Team with most points (from kills) wins. Also I think you might be recalling GW1 a little differently than I do...practically all of those PvP modes were played, including Random and Team Arenas and they balanced things pretty decently. Random Arenas sort of suffered from the same issue GW2 has in that you can't really pick your team comp, which is very important when you're talking about anything 5v5 related or in this case it was 4v4, and Team Arenas got replaced by Codex Arena in 2009 which is a sort of "fixed deck" gametype.

Isnt Arena of Arsha like a weird guild thing which is more akin to the battle arena in guild halls than sPvP? And sure they were all played, but from what I recall TDM were generally considered less competitive and more for fun.

Now I don't at all believe any game can achieve perfect balance, in fact every game will always have their own problems that hurt balance in some way and I'm saying that I feel like Conquest is probably what hurts PvP the most on GW2 because in 2v2 or 3v3 TDM, the moment the game let people (mostly) build their own team comp...the sheer oppressive nature of some classes and their kits came out even stronger. The moment

combat

was prioritized in sPvP, as the only thing you did, thats why we saw class "synergy" to a level that it was just cheesy.

So youre saying conquest hurts PvP because balancing around it ... broke 2v2/3v3? Im not sure I follow.

No, I'm saying that the issues with actual

combat

in the game become explicitly more visible when the only priority in a PvP match is "kill the other team". I'm saying that Conquest doesn't put combat as a priority, it puts rotating point captures and leaving unfavorable matchups as a priority. Look at the meta right now, the most optimal classes use builds that are either extremely oppressive with AoE damage (nade holo, reaper), can survive almost forever (tempest, firebrand), or can skip across the map in 3 seconds (thief).

Conquest still does put combat as a priority, it just has more layers than just that.

I won't delude myself to desire the balance to always have every class be viable in sPvP, thats just not realistic, but ANet clearly does not have the capacity to know how to balance classes with how GW2 works with its combat with Conquest as the primary competitive mode. It was alright back when the game wasn't so bloated with class mechanics...but that is very far from the case 8 years later, especially with their skills team being very adamantly against reworking things due to how it might affect PvE. Or at the very least they just make it that much more difficult for PvP balance to be more effectively handled, especially when it comes to Conquest. Conquest just adds a whole other layer, or layers, that they have to consider when doing anything with skill or trait reworks or changes and they haven't exactly done a great job of it which is exactly how we got Explosive Entrance and other problematic traits over the years.

Yeah except I cant see how this is the fault of conquest. Hell, didnt EE come at a time when we had 2v2 instead of conquest?

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Compared to 2v2/3v3? No, they indeed havent. And yes, of course when they balance for sPvP, they balance for conquest. Because sPvP is conquest. And thief mobility hasnt been touched not because of conquest (its a lot weaker in 2v2/3v3, which is why thief is unplayable in those gamemodes), its not touched because its what thief is about. Plus if you touched that, youd have to make so many buffs and compensations that its really not worth the effort. Also, what do you mean by "Why do you think 2v2 and 3v3 TDM are perceived the way they are after people got their hands on them"? They were percieved as fun, but poorly balanced and not something you want the main gamemode to be. Also, do you think scourge or Rampage were

less

broken in 2v2/3v3? Because they really,

really

were not.

First off, my mention of thief mobility is more of pointing out that they probably rotate the best out of any other class because of their mobility. Its still the best in the game, despite thieves likely complaining about any hits to initiative cost, so if they didn't have that mobility they probably wouldn't even be used in sPvP, which is unfortunate. Also no I don't think Scourge or Rampage were less broken in 2v2/3v3, that wasn't the point of bringing that up. My point is that because of balance, rightfully so because it is the Ranked gametype, being so centered around Conquest it hasn't actually been a boon to this games PvP or the balance between classes.

I mean, yeah they do. Their mobility wasnt at all touched after all. You are right that if thief didnt have that mobility they wouldnt be used in sPvP. But thats how it goes.

Cant say I agree. GW2s PvP is better than the other games for me in part because of conquest. 2v2/3v3 are just not very interesting. Youre basically playing only one part of conquest, lacking depth.

Now see thats fine, everyone has their own tastes but I wouldn't say that TDM lacks depth because of a lack of a map objective. This games combat is a hybrid of tab target and action combat, there is plenty of depth to that alone that makes smallscale fights fast paced and have plenty of depth to try and secure a win. There is coordination either via voice or pings or ingame chat, peeling for your teammates depending on how heavily they are being pressured, them peeling for you, focusing pressure and switching targets as necessary. There is more depth to deathmatch gametypes than I think people realize, especially in a game like GW2 with its combat.

The problem is that any build or playstyle that doesnt focus on either killing the enemy as fast as possible or keeping your teammates alive simply cant exist in 2v2/3v3. Things like roamers vanish entirely. And rotations, a major aspect of conquest, are likewise nowhere to be seen in 2v2/3v3. Instead its just kind of a deathball scenario.

Conquest isnt the reason for poor balancing, believe me. Its not like 2v2/3v3 was any more balanced, or like TDM in other MMOs is at all balanced. The issue comes down to making major mistakes in the balancing.

Again, I'm saying 2v2/3v3 is imbalanced because of Conquest. I'm saying any time a fight beyond the restrictive environment of Conquest, and potentially even sPvP, the glaring issues with not only balance but this games handling of PvP get shown even more brightly. I think it also sort of speaks volumes when one of the ideal tactics in Conquest is rather than fight an unfavorable matchup you just rotate away and to a completely different part of the map (aka a different point) to potentially outnumber the enemy team.

Half of those Im not particularly familiar, but BDO doesnt have TDM either. And for most of them, I imagine TDM is considered "more competitive" because its the only one being actively balanced. On the other hand, if both are balanced (rarity, I know), TDM tends to be the less balanced one, as we saw in GW1 as far as I can recall.

BDO does have TDM, its called Arena of Arsha. Red Battlefield is also a form of TDM, but with that whole points system. Team with most points (from kills) wins. Also I think you might be recalling GW1 a little differently than I do...practically all of those PvP modes were played, including Random and Team Arenas and they balanced things pretty decently. Random Arenas sort of suffered from the same issue GW2 has in that you can't really pick your team comp, which is very important when you're talking about anything 5v5 related or in this case it was 4v4, and Team Arenas got replaced by Codex Arena in 2009 which is a sort of "fixed deck" gametype.

Isnt Arena of Arsha like a weird guild thing which is more akin to the battle arena in guild halls than sPvP? And sure they were all played, but from what I recall TDM were generally considered less competitive and more for fun.

Now I don't at all believe any game can achieve perfect balance, in fact every game will always have their own problems that hurt balance in some way and I'm saying that I feel like Conquest is probably what hurts PvP the most on GW2 because in 2v2 or 3v3 TDM, the moment the game let people (mostly) build their own team comp...the sheer oppressive nature of some classes and their kits came out even stronger. The moment

combat

was prioritized in sPvP, as the only thing you did, thats why we saw class "synergy" to a level that it was just cheesy.

So youre saying conquest hurts PvP because balancing around it ... broke 2v2/3v3? Im not sure I follow.

No, I'm saying that the issues with actual

combat

in the game become explicitly more visible when the only priority in a PvP match is "kill the other team". I'm saying that Conquest doesn't put combat as a priority, it puts rotating point captures and leaving unfavorable matchups as a priority. Look at the meta right now, the most optimal classes use builds that are either extremely oppressive with AoE damage (nade holo, reaper), can survive almost forever (tempest, firebrand), or can skip across the map in 3 seconds (thief).

Conquest still does put combat as a priority, it just has more layers than just that.

I won't delude myself to desire the balance to always have every class be viable in sPvP, thats just not realistic, but ANet clearly does not have the capacity to know how to balance classes with how GW2 works with its combat with Conquest as the primary competitive mode. It was alright back when the game wasn't so bloated with class mechanics...but that is very far from the case 8 years later, especially with their skills team being very adamantly against reworking things due to how it might affect PvE. Or at the very least they just make it that much more difficult for PvP balance to be more effectively handled, especially when it comes to Conquest. Conquest just adds a whole other layer, or layers, that they have to consider when doing anything with skill or trait reworks or changes and they haven't exactly done a great job of it which is exactly how we got Explosive Entrance and other problematic traits over the years.

Yeah except I cant see how this is the fault of conquest. Hell, didnt EE come at a time when we had 2v2 instead of conquest?

Well no, I apologize for the lack of clarity as to my point, I've not been articulating it coherently enough. I'm putting a lot of the weight on Conquest as being the primary at fault factor here, when it truthfully isn't the entirety of the issue. Conquest as a gametype would likely be just fine, but I feel like ANet just doesn't know how to balance their game around it and so my belief is that if this is the case then they really should just move away from Conquest as the primary competitive gametype.

From what ANet has shown us very visibly over the last several years is that they don't seem to have the capability to handle class balance in relation to objective based PvP gametypes due to the layers that are inherent to them. Again, I wouldn't ever expect balance to be perfect, that is not an expectation that I would ever have...what I do expect is for things to maybe see some kind of improvement and I don't really believe that I've seen that.

I've played WoW, I've played BDO, I've played Destiny 2, and the PvP on each of those definitely goes through rough patches where there are things that overperform or are just cheesy or oppressive, however each of those games at least maintains some level of consistency in trying to keep those things out of the game or to lessen the degree in which they overshadow almost everything else. In BDO its at least consistent between every class that you can CC and then one tap any class no matter what you play, assuming you have the gear to do so. In WoW I've seen the BFA Corruption effects nerfed within a timely manner when they are seen as being oppressive in PvP, in Destiny 2 Exotics that create unhealthy playstyles are usually nerfed before or by the next time a new Season rolls out (roughly a 2 month cycle). ANet has shown for years now that they aren't capable of something like that, at least not in relation to Objective focused PvP gametypes. So I think that if they shifted their focus to balancing around Deathmatch focused gametypes they might actually have an easier time of balancing the game, because its more straightforward and doesn't have this entire other layer of complexity that they clearly have trouble handling.

And just for clarification, I do not think WoW, BDO, or Destiny 2 have perfect balance in PvP. Every game has flaws, they all need to improve somewhere...but at this point at least the dev studios behind those three games do a better job of it than ANet does, and they definitely communicate with their communities about these things better. Trust me, its weird for me to put Blizzard in that category but thats how low the bar is with ANet.

[Lucentfir.7430]

What I don't get is why would you even remove Conquest from ranked in trade for 2v2/3v3/ ranked. Wouldn't the best thing be to just 'add' 2v2/3v3 as a permanent ranked/unranked mode? Just let people choose what they want to play rather than funneling them into one mode they're not going to enjoy or have fun in.

[NotFound.7813]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Arctarius.2649 said:As someone who has played over 4K ranked games, I strongly feel that these are the superior game modes especially in today’s GW2. With the amount of AOE damage and condo damage stacking in team fights, I feel the barrier to entry in PvP has become too high. Unless you have years of time playing the game and understand what’s going on when you get in team fights.. it is actually just a mess. 2v2 and 3v3 fix this problem naturally by simply removing extra players which cause more skill clutter and confusion. It’s just too much. 2v2 and 3v3 is also just more fun, I mean hell.. we play pvp to you know.. PvP not capture points and get forced to stand in circles with classes that produce aoe’s so big that you are forced to just get wrecked. If new players come in and see pvp in its current state. I fear it willl never grow.. and with steam right around the corner there really isn’t much time for change. The sooner the better.I genuinely just wanna see this game grow, and with how well pvp does in WoW with its 2v2’s.. why the hell cant GW2, the game with the best combat system on the market do better?

GW2 PvP is balanced for conquest. 2v2 and 3v3 are AoE-spam bunkerfests, only a fraction of classes can actually compete. NO.

What do u > @Bazsi.2734 said:

@Arctarius.2649 said:As someone who has played over 4K ranked games, I strongly feel that these are the superior game modes especially in today’s GW2. With the amount of AOE damage and condo damage stacking in team fights, I feel the barrier to entry in PvP has become too high. Unless you have years of time playing the game and understand what’s going on when you get in team fights.. it is actually just a mess. 2v2 and 3v3 fix this problem naturally by simply removing extra players which cause more skill clutter and confusion. It’s just too much. 2v2 and 3v3 is also just more fun, I mean hell.. we play pvp to you know.. PvP not capture points and get forced to stand in circles with classes that produce aoe’s so big that you are forced to just get wrecked. If new players come in and see pvp in its current state. I fear it willl never grow.. and with steam right around the corner there really isn’t much time for change. The sooner the better.I genuinely just wanna see this game grow, and with how well pvp does in WoW with its 2v2’s.. why the hell cant GW2, the game with the best combat system on the market do better?

GW2 PvP is balanced for conquest. 2v2 and 3v3 are AoE-spam bunkerfests, only a fraction of classes can actually compete. NO.

What do u think this ppl enjoy? Actually thinking and improving on a strategy pvp or spamming aoe with their tanky build?

[Henrik.7560]

2v2 and 3v3 are pretty fun but i agree it would mess a lot of builds and strategies up being the main game mode.I Wouldn't mind if they did 1 month season of 5v5 and then a month of 2v2 though instead of 2 months of 1, 2 weeks of the other. Playing consistently for 2 months without burning yourself out in the current pvp is the real challenge.

[Arctarius.2649]

I don’t understand any of these arguments claiming somehow aoes are worse with 2v2. It makes literally zero sense. There are two players.. you watch for their skills and react accordingly. It’s called actually engaging in combat with other players.. ya know the thing you are supposed to do in pvp? My problem with conquest is it forces people into boring gameplay. Bunker being the worst of which, causing games to drag on or what could have been a good fight just becoming a plus one because some fat build can’t be killed. Here’s where it changes in 2v2. You are not forced into a tiny circle with an unkillable class as his team slowly begins to gangbang you. While in 2v2 you got eachothers backs to worry about and nothing more. With expansion sized balance. There is no reason why this can’t become the main game mode. You guys act like anet is restricted to what is currently in the game. They can make new maps. They can balance classes differently to the effect of 2v2. I feel like those arguing for conquest just want to sit in circles or Zerg with others to reduce the amount of work. PvP is about being competitive and mechanically mastering your class to outplay your opponent. We already have WvW if you wanna stand in aoes and hide behind other skilled players.

[uberkingkong.8041]

You youngins,

Back in my days,we played a game called Guild Wars.It had halls of heroes instead of tournament, which affected outcome of will Underworld be accessible for many.

In those days......It was 8 player teams... Just like GW2 core, pvp days, 8v8.

8 player teams Fun times. Very active PvP community too.

[White Kitsunee.4620]

2v2 is a great gamemode for a smaller community.2v2 is also way more fun then conquest.

[Bazsi.2734]

@wevh.2903 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Arctarius.2649 said:As someone who has played over 4K ranked games, I strongly feel that these are the superior game modes especially in today’s GW2. With the amount of AOE damage and condo damage stacking in team fights, I feel the barrier to entry in PvP has become too high. Unless you have years of time playing the game and understand what’s going on when you get in team fights.. it is actually just a mess. 2v2 and 3v3 fix this problem naturally by simply removing extra players which cause more skill clutter and confusion. It’s just too much. 2v2 and 3v3 is also just more fun, I mean hell.. we play pvp to you know.. PvP not capture points and get forced to stand in circles with classes that produce aoe’s so big that you are forced to just get wrecked. If new players come in and see pvp in its current state. I fear it willl never grow.. and with steam right around the corner there really isn’t much time for change. The sooner the better.I genuinely just wanna see this game grow, and with how well pvp does in WoW with its 2v2’s.. why the hell cant GW2, the game with the best combat system on the market do better?

GW2 PvP is balanced for conquest. 2v2 and 3v3 are AoE-spam bunkerfests, only a fraction of classes can actually compete. NO.

What do u think this ppl enjoy? Actually thinking and improving on a strategy pvp or spamming aoe with their tanky build?

There is hardly any strategy in a team deathmatch compared to conquest. No objectives, no rotations, just fight in a small arena. What point are you trying to make?

[NotFound.7813]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Arctarius.2649 said:As someone who has played over 4K ranked games, I strongly feel that these are the superior game modes especially in today’s GW2. With the amount of AOE damage and condo damage stacking in team fights, I feel the barrier to entry in PvP has become too high. Unless you have years of time playing the game and understand what’s going on when you get in team fights.. it is actually just a mess. 2v2 and 3v3 fix this problem naturally by simply removing extra players which cause more skill clutter and confusion. It’s just too much. 2v2 and 3v3 is also just more fun, I mean hell.. we play pvp to you know.. PvP not capture points and get forced to stand in circles with classes that produce aoe’s so big that you are forced to just get wrecked. If new players come in and see pvp in its current state. I fear it willl never grow.. and with steam right around the corner there really isn’t much time for change. The sooner the better.I genuinely just wanna see this game grow, and with how well pvp does in WoW with its 2v2’s.. why the hell cant GW2, the game with the best combat system on the market do better?

GW2 PvP is balanced for conquest. 2v2 and 3v3 are AoE-spam bunkerfests, only a fraction of classes can actually compete. NO.

What do u think this ppl enjoy? Actually thinking and improving on a strategy pvp or spamming aoe with their tanky build?

There is hardly any strategy in a team deathmatch compared to conquest. No objectives, no rotations, just fight in a small arena. What point are you trying to make?

I was giving u reason