World Linking 7/31/2020

[Metzie.3451]

@"Luthan.5236" said:Can someone explain this to me? I am currently playing at Underworld (linked with Drakkar Lake) and we are matched against 2 other servers that don't seem to have a link. But they have super low population.

The short version as far as Dzago is concerned. Even before the last relinking Dzago had the status full + partner server (status medium, as far as I remember). The performance (of the players or the server, host or partner server out of consideration) during that time was not outstanding, but ok. One took it as it is, not in a bad way. With the new linking one "hoped for improvement". However, the fewest until nobody expected that Dzago would not get a partner with the relinking. So Dzago was without a partner server with the relinking. As a result, a large number of players decided to leave the server and transferred (to our former partner server). Similarly, it is or was probably with WSR. Every two months the process is repeated and the chaos starts all over again (only that it might affect other servers). The result is what you currently find. Exciting and balanced matches in every aspect (watch out for sarcasm).

Originally (the developers or responsible people would still say so) the partner and linking systen was meant to balance the servers in terms of the number of players. However, since it has worked out and the company is flushing money into their tills (due to the mass transfers), they are not adapting the system. It is the failure on both sides, primarily by the responsible game makers (nothing to change). What remains are questions that you ask yourself sooner or later, whether as a veteran or a new player - WHY?! In the above example, nobody really enjoys it ... either to dominate everything or to lose everything permanently (for two months). ANet seems to accept the frustration of players who are finally smart enough and stop playing. That's what I call an intelligent and lastingly smart marketing strategy, which cannot have a more negative effect. Or are you telling someone after all this ... how great the WvW system and the game maker is? The calculation seems to work out ... doesn't it?

Anything but intelligent are the mass transfers (bandwagoning) of the players, which makes the current system valuable for ANet. Nearly everyone would like something to change, but the players contribute to the fact that it remains as it is. And these mass transfers contribute to it essentially. The system with the partner servers (see forum post) has basically never left the BETA status and was rather a temporary solution.

On 25.09.2020 there will probably be relinking - and the whole circus will start all over again. 

---

Status 09/12/2020 [saturday, WEEKEND]

How about a round of WvW - ANet, developer? I would like to invite you to visit our server on one of your "developers playing WvW Thursdays". But even before the new linking! Then show everyone present in the stream how great it feels! ;)

[aspirine.6852]

@Threather.9354 said:

@aspirine.6852 said:

@Len.1879 said:

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:and then u look at the stats of Baruch Bay and become like monkaHmm. not even full (at least someone said that lately), unlinked but blobbing more often than not

Baruch Bay is the only Spanish server and is therefore artificially held open by the devs. I believe they have stated so, but I can not find it right now, maybe someone else can provide a source. Their population state therefore does't really reflect their actual population, making BB a bad example.

It's true, and it is also complete BS that anet does this. Instead of having those people move to other servers they create a server that has too many players...

Most of them don't speak English. It was a problem in the past having ton of spanish speaking people on English speaking servers in the past when BB was full. It isn't exactly enjoyable experience for spanish people, imagine playing on Spanish speaking server without speaking Spanish yourself.

Issue is the fact that no English server can have numbers to match them due to them keeping each tier in relatively same population artificially every relinking. While BB could be outnumbered by old T1 servers (as they're old T1-T2 server), there is no such anymore as every linking has about same pop as a T3 server in more perfect system where population would be more diverse. Actually middle ground of old system with linking system that would maybe adjust populations very rarely and population statuses would be based on combined amount of people on the link would be more better.

It is very Anet like thing to slap a imperfect good idea into the game: Shield gens, scoring, upgrade speed, gliding speed, siege damage vs siege, claim buff etc. without ever coming back to adjust it to reasonable numbers. They literally do 99% of the work by designing and coding it but can't bother with last 1% to finetune the numbers.

None of the players during the day seem like Spanish speaking ones. It is now just a server where you can transfer too without limitations. Another great thinking move by the wvw team.....

[aspirine.6852]

@Deniara Devious.3948 said:

@CrimsonNeonite.1048 said:Now that we have 5 link servers; who are very high pop in the EU, the next relink will be interesting.

In addition that we have Aurora Glade (host) + Fort Ranik (link), both being full. Full + full obviously dominates tier 1. And that full+full has already existed many weeks in a row, so it is not just a temporary anomaly. I previous link FSP + link were also full + full for a short while.

Bottom tier looks so sad that I really Arananet will merge some some servers and create just 4 tiers for EU. WSR is medium population and hopelessly outnumbered vs anything it faces. Dzagonur is also without a link and been stuck to bottom tier for many weeks.

Baruch Bay (BB) is the only server, which can be at top without a link, because Arenanet keeps it articially open. Their true population is full+, not very high.

That last part doesnt help other servers at all it seems... They need to rethink that stupid decision.

[Riba.3271]

@Luthan.5236 said:Can someone explain this to me? I am currently playing at Underworld (linked with Drakkar Lake) and we are matched against 2 other servers that don't seem to have a link. But they have super low population.

Unlinked servers (outside BB that never goes full) have been proved to go full before even having 70% activity of linked ones. So transfers themselves are not the problem, the fact that it is impossible to have enough players when you're unlinked is so people just transfer away when their server gets unlinked.

Current system has 3 faults: Pop statuses are not based on total of main + link and transferring is too cheap. Also artificially manipulating pop statuses every 2 months disallows for fun servers to accomodate more people than unfun ones.

So they should just remove relinkings but keep lower amount of tiers, its quite simple. Let people deviate where the activity and entertainment is. Let lower tiers be little less active but not completely dead due to pop statuses.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@Glass Hand.7306 said:Blackgate should not get links for people to bandwagon into.

Kaineng natives agree. We're getting tired of this cycle of being linked with BG, people bandwagon to us, Team Chat becomes kitten, and then when the links end everyone leaves again.

[Luthan.5236]

@Threather.9354 said:Unlinked servers (outside BB that never goes full) have been proved to go full before even having 70% activity of linked ones. So transfers themselves are not the problem, the fact that it is impossible to have enough players when you're unlinked is so people just transfer away when their server gets unlinked.

Current system has 3 faults: Pop statuses are not based on total of main + link and transferring is too cheap. Also artificially manipulating pop statuses every 2 months disallows for fun servers to accomodate more people than unfun ones.

So they should just remove relinkings but keep lower amount of tiers, its quite simple. Let people deviate where the activity and entertainment is. Let lower tiers be little less active but not completely dead due to pop statuses.

That's some interesting insight. Actually it would make more sense for players to transfer to the unlinked server. Easier to increase to 100 percent than the other 70 percent transfering away. But if that one is high population (transfering expensive) and they can just transfer to another link to the weak server (medium population only maybe) ... then it will be cheaper.

I'd prefer if the system was without links. Played it back then in 2013 and I don't know how the playerbase is now. I guess they had do to do it cause some server might literally be totally empty. (Then again: We have this now with Dzagonur and WSR I think ... and they don't even have a link to help them. Because the system made players transfer away instead.)

There should just be more advertising in LA. By players. Or by the game itself. Rewards if you join and stay and participate (already a bit possibility of measuring this with the participation tiers) for a certain amount of time - if maps are low on population (outmanned).

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@Luthan.5236 said:Can someone explain this to me? I am currently playing at Underworld (linked with Drakkar Lake) and we are matched against 2 other servers that don't seem to have a link. But they have super low population.

Or were they (WSR and Dzagonur I think) strong at the time the relinking took place - with players transfering after the re-linking?

@"Metzie.3451" said:The short version as far as Dzago is concerned. Even before the last relinking Dzago had the status full + partner server (status medium, as far as I remember). The performance (of the players or the server, host or partner server out of consideration) during that time was not outstanding, but ok. One took it as it is, not in a bad way. With the new linking one "hoped for improvement". However, the fewest until nobody expected that Dzago would not get a partner with the relinking. So Dzago was without a partner server with the relinking. As a result, a large number of players decided to leave the server and transferred (to our former partner server). Similarly, it is or was probably with WSR. Every two months the process is repeated and the chaos starts all over again (only that it might affect other servers). The result is what you currently find. Exciting and balanced matches in every aspect (watch out for sarcasm).

Yep, i asked some people from WSR back then and they told me that severals guildies was stuck on previous link and couln't join because of full status, so they decided to all move to Ranik instead (leaving WSR almost dead).

And so we got tiers 5 mu very boring for everyone for 2 months \o/

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Glass Hand.7306" said:Blackgate should not get links for people to bandwagon into.

Kaineng natives agree. We're getting tired of this cycle of being linked with BG, people bandwagon to us, Team Chat becomes kitten, and then when the links end everyone leaves again.

friendly reminder that this solves nothing. "bandwagoners" how u call them would just stack on another server, and the host server would die for at least one season. we had that on EU with WhitesideRidge just recently. the big guilds just moved to stack on other servers.

edit: lol, just realized the WSR case was yet mentioned. but the issue lies within the current system. and Anet apparently dropped their since 2 years ready solution, since no further update and devs who made it not in company anymore afaik.

i kinda feel the devs have just not idea about Wvw. maybe we should write a open letter to remind them that it exists?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Glass Hand.7306 said:Blackgate should not get links for people to bandwagon into.

Kaineng natives agree. We're getting tired of this cycle of being linked with BG, people bandwagon to us, Team Chat becomes kitten, and then when the links end everyone leaves again.

And yet, Kaineng hasn’t been ‘full’ during any of their links with BG.

From my understanding, team chat on BG is always ‘young cat’ish’. Any link has to deal with some of BGs special people.

Sounds like linking with a full server is more the issue.

[Jilora.9524]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Glass Hand.7306 said:Blackgate should not get links for people to bandwagon into.

Kaineng natives agree. We're getting tired of this cycle of being linked with BG, people bandwagon to us, Team Chat becomes kitten, and then when the links end everyone leaves again.

And yet, Kaineng hasn’t been ‘full’ during any of their links with BG.

From my understanding, team chat on BG is always ‘young cat’ish’. Any link has to deal with some of BGs special people.

Sounds like linking with a full server is more the issue.

Kain is a med server for the most part and never moved from that for a long time until this link and slowly rose to high now VH so there has been an influx esp since SBI is more competition then what BG normally gets even tho it's the same oh BG caps everything overnight and somehow SBI knows exactly when they all log and papers all BG stuff and sometimes wins a week.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Glass Hand.7306 said:Blackgate should not get links for people to bandwagon into.

Kaineng natives agree. We're getting tired of this cycle of being linked with BG, people bandwagon to us, Team Chat becomes kitten, and then when the links end everyone leaves again.

And yet, Kaineng hasn’t been ‘full’ during any of their links with BG.

From my understanding, team chat on BG is always ‘young cat’ish’. Any link has to deal with some of BGs special people.

Sounds like linking with a full server is more the issue.

Kain is a med server for the most part and never moved from that for a long time until this link and slowly rose to high now VH so there has been an influx esp since SBI is more competition then what BG normally gets even tho it's the same oh BG caps everything overnight and somehow SBI knows exactly when they all log and papers all BG stuff and sometimes wins a week.

Don’t get me wrong; BG isn’t blameless. If Kaineng was full, I would agree.

The bandwagons are happpening harder on others. In fact, at least one T1 server is two full servers right now. The main and it’s link.

[Jilora.9524]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Glass Hand.7306 said:Blackgate should not get links for people to bandwagon into.

Kaineng natives agree. We're getting tired of this cycle of being linked with BG, people bandwagon to us, Team Chat becomes kitten, and then when the links end everyone leaves again.

And yet, Kaineng hasn’t been ‘full’ during any of their links with BG.

From my understanding, team chat on BG is always ‘young cat’ish’. Any link has to deal with some of BGs special people.

Sounds like linking with a full server is more the issue.

Kain is a med server for the most part and never moved from that for a long time until this link and slowly rose to high now VH so there has been an influx esp since SBI is more competition then what BG normally gets even tho it's the same oh BG caps everything overnight and somehow SBI knows exactly when they all log and papers all BG stuff and sometimes wins a week.

Don’t get me wrong; BG isn’t blameless. If Kaineng was full, I would agree.

The bandwagons are happpening harder on others. In fact, at least one T1 server is two full servers right now. The main and it’s link.

Oh, wasn't even thinking about them. Yeah they got 2 VH to start relink. There's some serious unbalance whether it's the linking system or too many transfers. 2 fulls vs say NSp and SF which is VH and Med. Of course half the servers are full now so either anet lowered the threshold or WvW is thriving.

[pfandersen.3269]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_rule

[snh.7091]

Newsflash: they don’t care. They designed this system this way to keep the money flowing in from the careless majority still playing the game.

Every transfer delays alliances.

[Diku.2546]

@"pfandersen.3269" said:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_rule

Totally support your intent, but it would lead to players gaming the system in another way...imho

Servers not wanting to be in T1 will purposefully "Tank Hard" just to get out of their T1 Match-Up.

WvW needs to replace the Fixed 3-way Fight Model that's powering our Match-Ups.

The game mode is un-competitive & un-healthy because Player Stacking allows specific Servers to Dominate All Other Servers in a majority of all their Match-Ups...imho

2018.05.20King of the Hill design should be used to counter Player Population stackingTold you so

Credibility requires critical insight & time.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

the issue lies within the system. you don't want to be t1, since u get not much out from it. most servers there only hide in keeps and are walking bags on the battlefield.

assumingly nobody would tank if let's say you'd get a free choice of five ascended armor/weapons with choosable stats at winning t1, three * at staying t1, two at winning t2 etc etc

however, you'd have to nerf siege defense stuff (precisely: damgage of siege against players) a bit, and provide way more ppt for player kills. maybe a dynamic system, where kills and deaths in squads contribute +3 instead of +1, so you maybe could feel them, and ppt has not alone to be decided from the people who just bunker up behind a line of 15 arrow carts

yes that would lead to more stacking, but full stacked upper servers would lead to a more chill and casual lower tier environment, while the higher tiers have their fighting content against something more entertaining than "silver recruit" blobs. which are currently however a surely fine farm, not gonna lie.

just look at the broken pvp tournament rewards and tell me that this would be asked too much.

[pfandersen.3269]

When matches are so unbalanced the best one can do is not to play, interesting game concept

[nopinopa.4861]

@"pfandersen.3269" said:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_rule

we do need it so badly...

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@pfandersen.3269 @"nopinopa.4861"if i understand that right, u'd want that mercy rule to stop the matchup straight if one gets a too big advantage in ppt? which is kinda really really bad idea. not only is the mercy rule made up for two-way competitions (and wvw is a threeway), but also the only real "score" we have is ppt score, which says basically nothing. [also, u cannot just have different ending times for matchups of all servers, that's nuts if some matches end yet monday, some wednesday, etc]

like we "lost" ppt in last matchup, but got great killcounts, and therefore had a nice farm on the enemies trying to drown us in their bodies. had my highest killcount sofar with like 3300+ kills in one matchup there

if u interprete the "mercy rule" differently, you gotta use words (common misconception of newbie players in wvw as well, no communication = no coordination = failure more likely) to explain how you'd see it of any use.

it might work better yet, if just player kills give more ppt and objectives give less per tick. system overall isn't dynamic also... like randomized starting borders and starting positions would be a nice thing yet.

what would be also dope: if EotM additionally counts | if we had like 5-6 different "border" maps, and regardless of last rank you get a random border at reset, so 1/6 three times.

there's just so much to do updatewise within Wvw, and nothing gets done, which leads obviously to some problems.

[misterman.1530]

@pfandersen.3269 said:When matches are so unbalanced the best one can do is not to play, interesting game concept

That's what I'm basically doing this week. A certain T1 blobby server is in T2, and I can't be bothered. Doing some PVE and some Fallout 4.

[nopinopa.4861]

@kamikharzeeh.8016you see, in a situation like the previous week, there is no point to continue the match. When green had everything, blue had a couple keeps, and red had a keep not in an hour or two, but for the whole week... There is nothing to do for all the three servers since the greens just roamed from a tower to a next tower, waiting when the first one will be taken again, so just go there, waiting when the second one will be taken away, then back to the first one and so one. The blues at least breathed while the reds... well, they... technically existed. In this case, the it'd be better just use the mercy rule literally since there is no wvw anyway or try to link servers that weren't linked this week.

[Super Hayes.6890]

@Glass Hand.7306 said:Blackgate should not get links for people to bandwagon into.

Let them have thier links. Unlink my server (Sorrow's Furnace) and let us take them on! I like pain...

[Diku.2546]

On 8/13/2020 at 9:19 PM, Diku.2546 said:

EU seems to be going through what our NA server communities have already gone through & these discussions sound quite familiar for NA players...imho

 

Topics like this were brought up over 2 & 4 years ago by NA players.

 

Strangely....here we are discussing these same topics again, but now it's by EU players.

 

EU is headed for some serious systematic damage to their long-term communities.

 

EU didn't have these issues until Language Linking (aka Server Linking) was deployed as a permanent feature to their region.

EU previously had a "stable" ecosystem that managed to survive despite no new content & would have continued to do so in harmony...imho

 

History Reference Links:

2019.06.14

Language Linking - aka - Server Linking

Start of EU Language Linking

 

2018.01.31

Guild Linking - aka - Planned Alliances

Launch Date To Be Announced

 

2016.06.11

Feature Linking - aka Server Linking

Prediction of Long-Term Impact damage to NA ecosystem

Start of NA Feature Linking

---

Team Creation solutions are bad for WvW because they're used to create an illuision of Healthy Comptetitive Match-Ups that's easily undermined by a player's fundamental desire to be on the Winning Team (behavior also known as stacking to win).

 

Highlights taken from NA Discussion

 

2016.06.11

Ok...Pandora’s Gennie in a Box has been opened

Told you so

 

2017.04.27

Don’t balance population. Let players stack

Told you so

 

2017.05.09

World Linking is systematically destroying the lower levels of an ecosystem that took years to evolve

Told you so

 

2018.05.20

King of the Hill design should be used to counter Player Population stacking

Told you so

 

2018.12.30

We've thrown away the one thing that made this game mode endearing & unique

Told you so

 

2019.03.26

Suppressing the Long-Term population growth

Told you so

 

2019.07.30

Slowly & methodically killing their "Goose that lays their Golden eggs"

Told you so

---

After 2 years of this nonsense...EU will be where NA is...with serious systemic long-term damage to their EU ecosystem...imho

 

I really wish ANet would stop wasting Dev Time & money after a failed solution & change course to make WvW profitable by changing the Match-Up model instead of tinkering with Team Creation.

 

Alliances if it ever launches...will fail for the same reasons Server Linking & Language Linking failed...Team Creation Solutions are bad for WvW.

 

Once again...for the future person reading this - (2022.08.16 - on or after).

 

2016.06.11 - Told you so NA...

2017.04.27 - Told you so NA...2017.05.09 - Told you so NA...

2018.05.20 - Told you so NA...2018.12.30 - Told you so NA...

2019.03.26 - Told you so NA...2019.07.30 - Told you so NA...

2020.08.16 - Where Knowing is half the battle - And Now - Told you So EU...

 

Credibility requires critical insight & time.

 

Quick Kick - "Anything worth doing is worth planning" - A G.I. Joe PSA

Hello 2 years ago self . . .

For the current person reading this today - (2022.08.27 - on or after).

Wondering if EU players can judge how accurately this 2 year old post details what they're experiencing today . . . Like or Thanks to vote

There's a better Road Map to evolving this cornerstone game mode . . . imho

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/61981-wvg-world-vs-globes-road-map-to-reboot-wvw

Once again...for the future person reading this - (2027.08.27 - on or after).

If Alliances gets past Beta maybe after 5 years of development . . . 

Hope this game mode doesn't turn toxic when it's foundation is based on ANet's vision of Alliances . . . which will allow Mega-Guilds & their officers to dictate how players can or can not join their Guild when trying to get to & enjoy content.

Yours truly,

Diku

Credibility requires critical insight & time.
#ToldYouSo

Edited August 28, 2022 by Diku.2546

[Strider Pj.2193]

InB4 locked because it’s a two year old necro:

18 hours ago, Diku.2546 said:

Hello 2 years ago self . . .

For the current person reading this today - (2022.08.27 - on or after).

Wondering if EU players can judge how accurately this 2 year old post details what they're experiencing today . . . Like or Thanks to vote

There's a better Road Map to evolving this cornerstone game mode . . . imho

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/61981-wvg-world-vs-globes-road-map-to-reboot-wvw

Once again...for the future person reading this - (2027.08.27 - on or after).

If Alliances gets past Beta maybe after 5 years of development . . . 

Hope this game mode doesn't turn toxic when it's foundation is based on ANet's vision of Alliances . . . which will allow Mega-Guilds & their officers to dictate how players can or can not join their Guild when trying to get to & enjoy content.

Yours truly,

Diku

Credibility requires critical insight & time.
#ToldYouSo

So, after 5 years, you still don’t understand how a ‘world’ will be restructured, and are convinced that the world will be controlled by one alliance…. 
 

Honestly, I know you understand it, but you continue to use other posts to shill your ‘vision’ for WvW.  Including spamming threads that truly have no relevance you your idea.  

[Diku.2546]

From a game director's perspective . . . I respectfully acknowledge your feedback.

However, you're misinformed & casually read & give your misinterpretations of what I'm trying to communicate . . . imho

Let's agree to disagree.  You & I will only see what you want to see in each other postings . . . . I currently have only 450 posts at this date in time on 2022.08.28, and I'm already trying to minimize what I post about.

My messages do not change because the design & vision for a cornerstone game mode does not easily change to match the opinions of those that disagree.

The design & vision is based on 3 major concepts that is probably meaningless to those that can only offer criticism.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

After 2 years I'm asking EU players how accurate was my original post that provides detailed history & context on what is happening today.

History repeats itself for a reason.  Please participate on encouraging a long-term solution.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm hoping to use time based history to help developers understand the long term effects of their decisions.

Closing a thread like this is like ignoring the building threat that can only be documented & studied over time.

It's a disservice to this forum community when threads like this that help to document history are closed due to short-term negative feedback.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

My next post was supposed to be in 5 years to reassess the truth, and to see if the developers can prove me wrong in this thread . . . I can only hope forum moderators will allow this thread to continue to remain open for discussion.

Respectfully to this forum community - Please judge for yourself the post in question.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/79749-world-linking-7312020/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-1742658

Yours truly,
Diku

Credibility requires critical insight & time.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Diku.2546