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World Linking 9/25/2020


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@Camdal.6197 said:

@Talindra.4958 said:quite a bad link for FoW with DL. DL is German speaking. how am i going to understand german.... i only know guten tag..

It's not the first time FoW's been linked with german speaking server.

Linguistically speaking it mostly isn't a problem, it's not as if they can't ping objects in chat, if trying to figure out what it actually says is too difficult.

Though it does generate some interesting discussions about what's going on, on occation.

well will see what happen anyway. its been 6 months we were linked with the same server.. so this is a change

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@"Deniara Devious.3948" said:Arenanet's "quality" metrics consider that Desolation [Europe] is full status server without a need for link. At reset, we have a queue at 1 map, other maps of course outnumbered and no queue.

And yet, Deso ist still 1st in the current matchup (until now) against two other linked-servers and still has (often) big blobs.So, why are you complaining?

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@Jilora.9524 said:Well all of kain just trans to DR I bet. YB had a nice t1 moment now back to the basement. I think they chose deso and gand as no links just because they would least likely entirely desert and transfer off like all the babies from wsr and Dzag making t5 an embarrassment.

No Ser, us KN originals all are happy to see the bandwagoners leave.

We really just want links gone, if they are not going to give Alliances. We have always been ok playing where we settle. Course, we know neither of those will happen cause all those bandwagoners that just jumped from KN to DR just gave ANet like $4-5000 USD this week, and they will not give up that steady income from WvW as long as people are dumb enough to keep doing it.

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@"Mlatic.8925" said:Why is t5 on EU still a thing? It is so obvious that there is not enough people for it. They even deleted it for one relink and it is beyond my understanding why they reintroduced it back in next relink.Kind of feel like they are trying to destroy last few wvw server communities.

I want to preface this by saying that the wall of text to follow is not a response to Mlatic, it's more of a commentary to this whole thread in general. His qoutes just makes for a good starting point.

I'm in no way, shape or form defending the linking system. It was not built to remain in 2020 and it should not remain in 2020. However, how the system is likely to work should be commonly known today. They are probably just going by simple metrics. The system likely has a bottom line that defines whether a player should count as adding to a server's WvW population or not.

The system is also updating those populations at specific dates, presumtively manually so no automation has been built into the existing system, meaning that building something like that is likely better done in a whole system recode than trying to shoehorn it into the linking system. Is that bad? Sure, but at least we know how it works, at least we can understand it and at least we can see that there's no point writing automation for Linking when they are writing automation for Alliances. That is one way of describing what Alliances are - it's where they are writing the automation.

So what happened with T4/T5 is likely that the defined playerbase totals had shrunk under a T5 need. The pandemic then made more people play, it also made people play more so more players likely pushed above the WvW threshold and everyone being locked in over the summer peaked it. It's not unique for computer games: the gardening and home decoration markets have boomed, guitars are sold out all over the world etc. It is very likely that these metrics are the reason that EU pinged from five tiers down to four tiers and up to five tiers again over the spring of 2020.

This also impacts different servers differently. Again, I am not defending the system, I am merely explaining the system. Servers that used to be big PvX hubs back in 2014 before the Megaserver system will still have their players count towards the WvW population if they play above the threshhold. As a result, old large hubs likely sees as a disparate rise and decline in WvW populations any time something floods the mode with attention. These servers are impacted more by players getting more time on their hands and they are also impacted more by changes that makes WvW temporarily more appealing to players who do not usually play it enough to count towards their WvW population. So, if ArenaNet decides to drop the Sublime armor skin from 2000 wxp to 500 wxp those servers may see a short, unstable and/or fake spike in population.

Servers like Gandara and Desolation used to be old PvX hubs. Them getting hit more frequently by the system is as such not surprising. It isn't fair, it isn't good but it also isn't surprising. The same goes for if a server has a large but rather casual WvW community as well. That means they have a larger amount of players who count towards their population but may be providing less coverage in hours played. That is because the system is more likely based on a threshhold than on an average. I have no source right now, but I also have a faint recollection that I read about this being the case a long time ago.

Whether a server has a big population or not is likely to be somewhere in the middle between what impressions people on it versus people who come up against it has. The truth is likely best illustrated by saying that no servers are strong enough to be without links (because coverage still heavily impacts matchups). That just further underlines that the system is bad. At the same time, things are not as simple as looking at numbers alone because organized numbers are important. If a server declines to a low level of organisation it will feel more empty than it is. If a server climbs to a high level of organisation it will feel more populated than it is. For example, any server that sees a prime with queues on two maps and two empty maps has a population to cover all maps, they just do not have the organisation to cover all maps. Timezone coverage is a different issue, but for me that is more so a scoring imbalance issue than population imbalance issue or content-creation issue. A game shouldn't have regions and timezone coverage design, in fact for the past 20 years MMO's have known to avoid or balance timezone coverage design. This is likely a release placeholder that never got done. There are many easy ways to fix it.

This makes the overall decline in organisation a rather important factor next to any decline in population. In my oppinion it is a more important factor because a developer has more control over that than direct player numbers and it is also a factor that will impact players numbers because players will start playing or stop playing depending on content created by player communities. I don't know if GW2 WvW suffers from a sharp decline of players. However, I do know that GW2 WvW suffers from a sharp decline of organisation and I know that it is a factor that makes players quit and stops players from (re-) starting. That is something Anet can do something about, if they wanted to.

So, are Anet killing WvW? Yes, they are, but not in such direct or underhanded ways. Those are just how the system works and even if a system is bad it is up to us to be better or worse at gaming the system. The interesting bit is what is indirect. It is the same old reason as ever, it's the overall lack of attention and that they never deliver on fixing the things every experienced player know to be the problem. That we have servers, that they are full and that our matchup system does not work as it is supposed to be is what is "killing" WvW. Those are the things that ruin our tools to organize ourselves and make communities that can create content. Those two pieces of critique can exist at the same time, the system can be bad and we can be bad at using the system at the same time. Neither claim makes the other invalid.

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@"Talindra.4958" said:the social component is the biggest part in wvw. and unable to communicate takes away that part.. and it is why it ruin the game for many when it comes to chicken try to speak with duck esp in battle .. especially servers that contain many wvw orientated guilds .. we have few guilds shift to other server already. .. these small guilds like us.. rely on map chat to scout for us.. when looking for fight.. and the map chat is in german..

I am on english/german linked servers for a long time. Its not such a big problem. You can ping the objectives in chat, they are shown in the local language, "25+" does mean the same in english and german, directions are north/nord, east/ost, south/süd, west/west, left/links, right/rechts, back/zurück and the enemy colors are red/rot, green/grün and blue/blau.

Sure, there is more info for scouting, but it is not hard to learn. Maybe your server can add some translation-info on your community-page/TS3/Discord.

After a little training it is even possible to make a voice-comm lead dual-language in german/english and if the comm (or another player in voice-chat) does not now the correct translation, there will always be helpful players to translate.

And for the social component: You can learn quit fast how to flame in other languages. B)

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@Zok.4956 said:

@"Talindra.4958" said:the social component is the biggest part in wvw. and unable to communicate takes away that part.. and it is why it ruin the game for many when it comes to chicken try to speak with duck esp in battle .. especially servers that contain many wvw orientated guilds .. we have few guilds shift to other server already. .. these small guilds like us.. rely on map chat to scout for us.. when looking for fight.. and the map chat is in german..

I am on english/german linked servers for a long time. Its not such a big problem. You can ping the objectives in chat, they are shown in the local language, "25+" does mean the same in english and german, directions are north/nord, east/ost, south/süd, west/west, left/links, right/rechts, back/zurück and the enemy colors are red/rot, green/grün and blue/blau.

Sure, there is more info for scouting, but it is not hard to learn. Maybe your server can add some translation-info on your community-page/TS3/Discord.

After a little training it is even possible to make a voice-comm lead dual-language in german/english and if the comm (or another player in voice-chat) does not now the correct translation, there will always be helpful players to translate.

And for the social component: You can learn quit fast how to flame in other languages. B)

yeah we will try first and see what happen :)I know the german can speak better English than I am :p

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:Well all of kain just trans to DR I bet. YB had a nice t1 moment now back to the basement. I think they chose deso and gand as no links just because they would least likely entirely desert and transfer off like all the babies from wsr and Dzag making t5 an embarrassment.

No Ser, us KN originals all are happy to see the bandwagoners leave.

We really just want links gone, if they are not going to give Alliances. We have always been ok playing where we settle. Course, we know neither of those will happen cause all those bandwagoners that just jumped from KN to DR just gave ANet like $4-5000 USD this week, and they will not give up that steady income from WvW as long as people are dumb enough to keep doing it.

Oh yeah I didn't mean og kain players. It's just kain went from med pop forever to vh so I knew the bg got a bandwagon to the link. Now relinks base off kain at vh when it'll probably drop back to med pop and that just screws your whole yb/kain link as you won't have the numbers

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@Zok.4956 said:

@"Deniara Devious.3948" said:Arenanet's "quality" metrics consider that Desolation [Europe] is full status server without a need for link. At reset, we have a queue at 1 map, other maps of course outnumbered and no queue.

And yet, Deso ist still 1st in the current matchup (until now) against two other linked-servers and still has (often) big blobs.So, why are you complaining?

It's been only one night in T5, against more populated servers over a one week period.

We don't have that much population left, nevermind Guilds on here to sustain our PPT or PPK.

We might be more active due to the Pandemic, but most of the time we lack the population by being a solo Server and also we lack the Guilds to fight most Servers; which have so many more Prime Time guilds atm.

Meanwhile Whiteside Ranik just mass migrated back to WSR, only because RoF was too dead to carry them out of T5, but people will have an excuse for this broken Linking system and what the players do to abuse how the system works currenctly.

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@Jilora.9524 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:Well all of kain just trans to DR I bet. YB had a nice t1 moment now back to the basement. I think they chose deso and gand as no links just because they would least likely entirely desert and transfer off like all the babies from wsr and Dzag making t5 an embarrassment.

No Ser, us KN originals all are happy to see the bandwagoners leave.

We really just want links gone, if they are not going to give Alliances. We have always been ok playing where we settle. Course, we know neither of those will happen cause all those bandwagoners that just jumped from KN to DR just gave ANet like $4-5000 USD this week, and they will not give up that steady income from WvW as long as people are dumb enough to keep doing it.

Oh yeah I didn't mean og kain players. It's just kain went from med pop forever to vh so I knew the bg got a bandwagon to the link. Now relinks base off kain at vh when it'll probably drop back to med pop and that just screws your whole yb/kain link as you won't have the numbers

Indeed Bruddha, but like your sig says, we know the drill now. For right now though, night of resent we were kicking a 4.0 KD ratio, which was suprising, but than again, we are so used to fighting outnumbered we call it the KN Boon.

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@phreeak.1023 said:seems Aurora Glade (EN), Ruins of Surmia (EN) is a great Combo. From what i heared, they are using bugs/exploits to cap towers and keeps on the red border all the time ^^

What happen there? xD its weekend tho.. so the activity might slow down during weekdays. A few fow fighter guilds moved to RoS.. and they are nice people btw.

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More guilds moving to servers who are already stacked with guilds, is not good for the game mode either, but the current Linking System and Population limitations allows it.

Now we have Fort Ranik/RoF who will lack population and organization unless it gets repopulated, while Desolation and Gandara might stay locked for a long while, even though people are actively trying to keep and rebuild our communities on these servers, with the limited population we have.

So, either of us will end up moving between T5 and T4, with no way for players or guilds to transfer in to replace that lost population, that is not accounted for, with or without a link.

There are some good people on WSR, but a lot have big egos and are trolls, making it quite hard to understand the popularity about them as a server, other than a 100+ community farming bags with vets against less stacked/experienced servers and clouding around SM with roamers and AMX.

They got farmed by Millers the other night though, because of their own comfort zone. I doubt they will enjoy the queues and bandwagon already.

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@"subversiontwo.7501" said:That we have servers, that they are full and that our matchup system does not work as it is supposed to be is what is "killing" WvW. Those are the things that ruin our tools to organize ourselves and make communities that can create content. Those two pieces of critique can exist at the same time, the system can be bad and we can be bad at using the system at the same time. Neither claim makes the other invalid.

Preach, brother.

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@MindTricked.4283 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:Well all of kain just trans to DR I bet. YB had a nice t1 moment now back to the basement. I think they chose deso and gand as no links just because they would least likely entirely desert and transfer off like all the babies from wsr and Dzag making t5 an embarrassment.

Yeah, YB does MUCH better as a link than a host. We seem to be too fair-weather - we start in the basement, and our pop is relatively-low, to the point that we end up as a link, we rise in the ranks, and all the fair-weather types show up to push our metrics back up to Host-level. Re-link, we crash to the bottom as a host, people vanish, and we suffer again. The same cycle has repeated itself all year.

Many of us are glad that we're not hosting ET again (and vice versa). Aside from a handful of guilds, we seem to have a LOT of problems working towards a common goal. Now, if Kaineng decides to bolt, well...
shrugs
.

at least ET has some players and guild, and what about kng ? they have 50 players at most and 2 or 3 small guilds, i really don't know how the hell kng is veryhigh, but lets continue, this link between YB and kng is a joke, just look our activit this week, it is the worst of all servers we are even worse in activit then SoS that run a ghost timezone like ocx/sea.

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@CrimsonNeonite.1048 said:More guilds moving to servers who are already stacked with guilds, is not good for the game mode either, but the current Linking System and Population limitations allows it.

Now we have Fort Ranik/RoF will lack population unless it gets repopulated, while Desolation and Gandara might stay locked for a long while, even though people are actively trying to keep and rebuild our communities on these servers, with the limited population we have.

So, either of us will end up moving between T5 and T4, with no way for players or guilds to transfer in to replace that lost population, that is not accounted for, with or without a link.

It is amazing how one server with its bandwagoners i am looking at you WSRanik/Ridge can screw up everything for everyone else. Being RoF I am stuck with them. And guess what? Most of them bandwagonned again last night, because they were expecting someone to PPT them out of T5.

Remember how they were crying that they moved to FR because their friends could not join them? Wonder what BS excuse they will use now for stacking. So basically now I am either stuck with a dead link for 2 months, or I move my ass somewhere else.

Currently both Deso and FR+RoF are getting annihilated by Miller's Sound.

Gandara and Deso and being kept full is BS, they lost way too many people.

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@Daredevil.2745 guess i found one of the 5500 people i killed during the last two weeks lmfao

also, tiers matter not even a bit. t2 and t3 fights last weeks been the easiest farm i had for quite some time - and our link was only low populated (however, had like 40 good players and 10 pugs, which was basically all we needed)

...btw dedicated toxic troll account lmfao. you made 2 posts in 2 years,

! both to make cheap shots against a server who changed more than you changed your pants during that time?@"aspirine.6852" i mean, they're not wrong. we gotta "rebuild" this stuff all the time again, because they disrupt it by force. the only rather constant time i remember has been ages ago.literally every some weeks u see a ton of new names currently. many (forum kinda shows this too) refuse to play anything but ranger-thief or are just crossing by for farming gift of battle (and take ten times as long as needed) etc

@"Anaide.8251" on point - this also shows how finally worthless people talking about "tiers" as if that had to do anything of prestige, is. u can transfer within seconds. and the strong WSR guilds just transfered back to re-stack again. and yeah, everyone that isn't blues in our matchup now is kinda messed up. we have only one "blob" that is only halfways (if even) filled with players who can play effectively, the rest rather is meatshields. so its kinda zerg in blobsize, while blues ppt undisturbed in 2 maps, while we struggle to cover one.

btw, after gw2mists, FR and RoF had in sum 83 transfer-outs (in the "last 30 days")

like yesterday night we had one queue, but our group on our own home border had still (midnight till 3am) constantly about 20 people less than the guys camping at our garri. idk why we had a queue, or what the ppl did who should been on that border. maybe they just exploded too fast bc dodge key pressing is "too meta", who knows.

@Zok.4956i played friday relink (unlink in our case) and nope, desolation had basically one group jumping around and trying to fight with mediocre success. we acutally jumped around to avoid the WSR mainblob bc it made no sense to fight that, also they had queues so couldn't follow our jumps. we had only one map queued really the whole unlink night. didn't play most of saturday, but was even worse after looking at the kd/r. we also have next to no comms left, rather new ones that need much experience.

yeah, our ppt group kittens ppt hard during odd times.(whenever they play, or wherever they play, i don't even know most of them since they seem to be migrated to us... kittens that expect a corpse server to carry them, bc they remembered that we smacked them some time in the past, probably when we had still any raid guilds.)

what shall i say, switching server has never looked so tempting. that, or stopping to play for some time. just anet proves that they don't fix things by time... alliances greets from the mists.

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@diomache.9246 said:You still can hope that SFRs fighting spirit destroys WSR bandwagon

kekW , you so mad at wsr bandwagon , arnt you? get your own server together ^^ go join Tiru reform help them form a strong server , pointless you keep malding on forum about wsr when you dont try to form anything on your own and still tunnel visioned on the : i paid for the game i do whatever i want

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@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:@Zok.4956i played friday relink (unlink in our case) and nope, desolation had basically one group jumping around and trying to fight with mediocre success. we acutally jumped around to avoid the WSR mainblob bc it made no sense to fight that, also they had queues so couldn't follow our jumps. we had only one map queued really the whole unlink night. didn't play most of saturday, but was even worse after looking at the kd/r. we also have next to no comms left, rather new ones that need much experience.

yeah, our ppt group kittens ppt hard during odd times.(whenever they play, or wherever they play, i don't even know most of them since they seem to be migrated to us... kittens that expect a corpse server to carry them, bc they remembered that we smacked them some time in the past, probably when we had still any raid guilds.)

what shall i say, switching server has never looked so tempting. that, or stopping to play for some time. just anet proves that they don't fix things by time... alliances greets from the mists.

It felt as if Desolation stopped playing starting from Saturday evening on and if lots of players from Desolation already transferred to other servers and left the server. Before that it felt as if Desolation was kind of OK. We will see if the Deso server population status will change monday evening, when it is recalculated.

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@Simo.6819 said:

@diomache.9246 said:You still can hope that SFRs fighting spirit destroys WSR bandwagon

kekW , you so mad at wsr bandwagon , arnt you? get your own server together ^^ go join Tiru reform help them form a strong server , pointless you keep malding on forum about wsr when you dont try to form anything on your own and still tunnel visioned on the :
i paid for the game i do whatever i want

Sorry, I am now linked to your stupid bandwagon for eight weeks. So, I just don't play the game until re-linking.

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