How is WvW nowadays?

[Metzie.3451]

@"Luthan.5236" said:Are there any players that played since back then release 2012? How do you like the WvW nowadays compared to back then?

I'm just curious. Personally I played from 2012 release until end 2013. Didn't play GW2 2014-2019. And with WvW I only started again recently - just to unlock the mount. It seems WvW is the game mode with the lowest amount of players. (I mean ... if they even had to link 2 servers and on Friday/reset there is barely any queue a few hours after the reset.)

This may answer your question, in some way. Maybe it's worth reading the whole post/discussion?! See: WvW - World Linking & Matchup

[Dahkeus.8243]

@Custodio.6134 said:This is the definition of having a wrong mindset in WvW. WvW is a highly competetive mode by definition (btw: one defining part of competetive gaming is ranking and/or a matchmaking system). You are fighting against others as a team, in order to win against them and achieve a higher ranking in a ladder. Even if you try to lose a certain match on purpose, this is most of the time a tactical decision and so part of competetive gaming.

Maybe, but this is also a problem inherent in WvW. The competition is constantly ongoing from before you log on to well after you go to bed for the night. The result is that your actual contribution or even involvement in any actual competition easily feels irrelevant to the larger scale situation.

[Svarty.8019]

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@Custodio.6134 said:This is the definition of having a wrong mindset in WvW. WvW is a highly competetive mode by definition (btw: one defining part of competetive gaming is ranking and/or a matchmaking system). You are fighting against others as a team, in order to win against them and achieve a higher ranking in a ladder. Even if you try to lose a certain match on purpose, this is most of the time a tactical decision and so part of competetive gaming.

Maybe, but this is also a problem inherent in WvW. The competition is constantly ongoing from before you log on to well after you go to bed for the night. The result is that your actual contribution or even involvement in any actual competition easily feels irrelevant to the larger scale situation.

Do you really think so? I think the opposite. I get the impression that players feel important while they're contributing, but once they log off, they don't think about the game at all.

[Dahkeus.8243]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@Custodio.6134 said:This is the definition of having a wrong mindset in WvW. WvW is a highly competetive mode by definition (btw: one defining part of competetive gaming is ranking and/or a matchmaking system). You are fighting against others as a team, in order to win against them and achieve a higher ranking in a ladder. Even if you try to lose a certain match on purpose, this is most of the time a tactical decision and so part of competetive gaming.

Maybe, but this is also a problem inherent in WvW. The competition is constantly ongoing from before you log on to well after you go to bed for the night. The result is that your actual contribution or even involvement in any actual competition easily feels irrelevant to the larger scale situation.

Do you really think so? I think the opposite. I get the impression that players feel important while they're contributing, but once they log off, they don't think about the game at all.

Oh, definitely. I mean, in WvW, unless you’re a commander, you’re already just one small part of a large zerg, which already makes it hard to see your own contribution. Even if you’re roaming, one of your main effects of flipping campus is limiting supply, but there’s no way to see how much that is actually mattering in the moment.

All of that could potentially be overlooked by the thrill of in the moment victories, such as winning battles against other zergs, winning keeps, flipping campus, winning duels, etc, which is what a keeps a lot of players like myself going, but the large scale competition between servers just doesn’t really feel affected when you log off and come back to see a completely different score.

Even if you “win” a week, it doesn’t seem to matter much since there’s not much of anything at stake.

Compare this to other game’s that have specific “realm vs realm” events that take place within a single day, where the victor claims territory, gains certain perks, etc. Even Hall if Heroes has something like this early on in GW1, where only the country that had “gained favor in the Hall of Heroes” could access Underworld and Fissure of Woe. The player count in HoH was much smaller, but you get my point.

[Luthan.5236]

Yeah. That's what I mean when I say PvP with the conquest matches feels more "rewarding". (In terms of the psychological reward ... the motivation.) You can actually see the outcome pretty soon (max 15 minutes) and you participated the whole match.

I noticed yesterday that during those WvW "matches" (the ones where you get 3, 4 or 5 victory points) it was pretty close at the end - between most and 2nd most war score. My server hat good ticks but still ended up 2nd cause others attacked more. (It was capping and re-capping ... less defending.)

When I see queue on map (slow queue but it was queue) and no one commanding ... i wonder how people are motivated. And I wonder about the bigger "system" in the background. I mean I'm casual player and I know about the guilds organizing stuff.

There is 1 guild with big squad and commander that changes maps every now and then. In German forums I saw people discussing about server Drakkar Lake (I am German but I play on Underworld cause I like international servers more ... German players tend to take the game "tooo serious" :D ) and how Underworld was bad because they just care for fights and not for points.

And on 1 map ... wasn't that bad (enemy borderlands) and we capped stuff without commander. (Maybe enemy server did not have enough players there?)

Though I wonder ... why not just someone randomly tags up? What I have seen though ... in the past: People telling someone to tag down just because he is a random player. Because some guilds claim to be the only ones to be allowed to send a commander. Might lead to such situations where in the end maps are even wi hout commander. People too afraid of some "pros" flaming and harassing them if they randomly tag up. (Even if no one else is there.)

The mentality is a bit weird and of a problem. Especially the "gap" between casual and hardcore/serious players. Less of a problem in a random 5 vs. 5 in PvP conquest.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Luthan.5236" said:Though I wonder ... why not just someone randomly tags up? What I have seen though ... in the past: People telling someone to tag down just because he is a random player. Because some guilds claim to be the only ones to be allowed to send a commander. Might lead to such situations where in the end maps are even wi hout commander. People too afraid of some "pros" flaming and harassing them if they randomly tag up. (Even if no one else is there.)Well thats still a thing. The problem is that The Commander has always been put on a piedestal and raised to cult leader status. People expect The Commander to tick all the boxes - zerg class, anything below 50 still needs firebrands, monoblob, only in it for fights, have to use discord. The rift between roamers and zerglings seem to be larger than ever since the latter seems to be completely incabable of independant thought if the Allmighty Tag isnt around to tell them what to do. Some join random pug clouders, but it quickly fall apart because they bring a zerger (as expected) to a cloud fight.

But on the upside I suppose this do create opportunities for smaller guilds. You want to know why FSP is in the complete kittenshow of T5? Because its been matchup after matchup of being utterly dominated by 5-10 man groups running around unchallenged. Oh the numbers are there - FSP prolly have 2-3x those numbers to fight them on the borders most of the time. But when defense of an objective is called for maybe 2-3 show up. And of course with no one capable of defending, there is no one to pressure them back either. Enemy objectives... sit there. Which just snowballs it.

Sometimes I try to lazily pug tag to make things move. Its hilarious when you where unable to defend a T3 tower against 5 people because there is no one to help, then you tag up and within minutes there are like 15+ around you, seemingly grown out of the ground. Unfortunetly most of the time I do that, we loose every camp on the map and no one takes them back.

[Svarty.8019]

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@"Custodio.6134" said:This is the definition of having a wrong mindset in WvW. WvW is a highly competetive mode by definition (btw: one defining part of competetive gaming is ranking and/or a matchmaking system). You are fighting against others as a team, in order to win against them and achieve a higher ranking in a ladder. Even if you try to lose a certain match on purpose, this is most of the time a tactical decision and so part of competetive gaming.

Maybe, but this is also a problem inherent in WvW. The competition is constantly ongoing from before you log on to well after you go to bed for the night. The result is that your actual contribution or even involvement in any actual competition easily feels irrelevant to the larger scale situation.

Do you really think so? I think the opposite. I get the impression that players feel important while they're contributing, but once they log off, they don't think about the game at all.

Oh, definitely. I mean, in WvW, unless you’re a commander, you’re already just one small part of a large zerg, which already makes it hard to see your own contribution. Even if you’re roaming, one of your main effects of flipping campus is limiting supply, but there’s no way to see how much that is actually mattering in the moment.

All of that could potentially be overlooked by the thrill of in the moment victories, such as winning battles against other zergs, winning keeps, flipping campus, winning duels, etc, which is what a keeps a lot of players like myself going, but the large scale competition between servers just doesn’t really feel affected when you log off and come back to see a completely different score.

Even if you “win” a week, it doesn’t seem to matter much since there’s not much of anything at stake.

I like that notion, but games seem to be quite limited in the way they handle territory. I believe they think too "small-scale" in such regard because they want players to have instant gratification and fights, fights, fights.

Back in the day, before HoT, keeps were much harder to flip, doing so meant something, felt like an achievement. All the things we want as players, but over time those aspects dwindled away in favour of fights, because people on the forum ASKED FOR IT.

Well, I think the old game was good, there have been many improvements, but also many mistakes.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

Probably the most telling thing is they remove our threads cross-posting the release notes and their lack of WvW updates...

[Straegen.2938]

The zerg classes that were OP are still OP only more so. The large scale meta is slightly better than pirate ship but way worse than release. The small scale meta is on life support. They bunker'd everything and nerf'd every melee build to the point of uselessness. Every build that is effective is range or AoE. Most power skills in small scale are laughable except long range abilities. Roaming is now a joke as they basically neutered every decent roaming build.

The worst thing they did was render an absurd number of weapons and skills near useless so the class and build diversity is practically non-existent. I pretty much never run into an oddball build that is functional.

[KeyOrion.9506]

Back in the day, people cared about the score. About getting to the top. People and commanders cared about the "Challenge" of attacking, defending locations on all the maps.

Today it's "Screw PPT" or the whole "Bag farm" concept. Majority of WvW players have lost their WvW way. When players actively try to "throw" the match to lose...to go down a tier ...what does that tell you about the state of WvW. ANET you hear that? Your players actively, ACTIVELY promoting to lose to go DOWN in tiers, instead of rising to a "challenge" to go up the ladder. Come on. How bad is WvW, where the player's care more about losing than winning. How far have we fallen?

[parthannun.4367]

But you cannot completely force a player to get into the squad+voice and play specific builds directly. The only thing you can do as commander is to close the squad and invite people that are at least in voice. But that´s the commander´s decision. And don´t complain about dying while trying to save them because of their stupid actions. Just, dont save them. You will not die, and the other one may learn a lesson to not do that stupid actions (maybe, maybe not, that´s up to that player, not you). Most of the time, rezzing a player that made a stupid mistake even deals more damage to you (or the zerk) than actually helping, so in this regard you should know better and just not do it.

in opentags, these people don't understand when to bomb, when to sustain, when to dodge, when to push and cleave, when to "leave it for now" (necessary draw back and gather up since freaking cooldowns got way longer time to cd... and ppl play as if that would not be a thing)

this is the problem of individual players, not WvW itself. And, to repeat myself, this is a player-created issue that is getting worse over time. It doesn´t even take very much effort to at least look for a class build and join the commander in voice. But when i look at how many players technically are playing WvW (based on player numbers i can roughly see because of map queues) and how many players are actually interested and want to get better (based on players that are either in a progressive WvW-Guild, or joining organized training events for classes and mechanics) this numbers have heavily dropped over time. Although there still are a lot of new players that join WvW for the first time. And it is still a fact, that almost every organized zerk has at least one or two guilds as core part (in most cases at least the guild members of the commander, as most, not all, public commanders are also guild players).I'm not interested in joining voice chat, and can't really play with a "meta" build picked from the web, because I have to include all my movement skills just to keep up, certainly if you die, you have to run a whole while before you get somewhere interesting... There is no LFG open, so I just follow a commander and hit stuff (or roam and try to take easier, non-siege objectives). Not like I'm going to learn anything that way (when/why to bomb, sustain, leave it for now, ...). Communication should still be possible over chat, but the way people play this mode now, it is not really newbie friendly. I've farmed my Gift of Battle, but I'm not playing again unless I have to, because it was not fun. When I try to do good and call out some enemies, I get DM'd to "get back to PvE".

[Aeolus.3615]

@Straegen.2938 said:The zerg classes that were OP are still OP only more so. The large scale meta is slightly better than pirate ship but way worse than release. The small scale meta is on life support. They bunker'd everything and nerf'd every melee build to the point of uselessness. Every build that is effective is range or AoE. Most power skills in small scale are laughable except long range abilities. Roaming is now a joke as they basically neutered every decent roaming build.

The worst thing they did was render an absurd number of weapons and skills near useless so the class and build diversity is practically non-existent. I pretty much never run into an oddball build that is functional.

IMO its the minstrell stats combination that were designed for the previus damage quioficients, needs to loose toughness for something else or get that stat divided into 2 or 3 stats

[drashy.4587]

Never mind.

[Mokk.2397]

WvW is a bag farm and that's it. So called "Fight Guilds" are no more than bully blobs scrounging for scraps because no one with any sense will fight the same OP Four Class META that has dominated for the last year and a half . So desperate for scraps that blobs of 30 plus will chase one person half way across a map for one lousy bag . And I don't blame people for running away or porting when any of them show up . Or abandoning a structure without hesitation because everything has become so undefendable that anything higher than tier 2 is rare to nonexistent so why bother defending it . Strategy and competitiveness has been thrown right out the window and dailies have become the high light of the day .How and why the Developers believe this is fun , completely baffles me . I would agree that this is my opinion alone but its simple not the fun WvW that we had 3 or 4 years ago.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@"Luthan.5236" said:Are there any players that played since back then release 2012? How do you like the WvW nowadays compared to back then?

I'm just curious. Personally I played from 2012 release until end 2013. Didn't play GW2 2014-2019. And with WvW I only started again recently - just to unlock the mount. It seems WvW is the game mode with the lowest amount of players. (I mean ... if they even had to link 2 servers and on Friday/reset there is barely any queue a few hours after the reset.)

There seems to exist new stuff that got released between 2014 and 2019 which is barely used. (Those shield generators. Barely saw them used.) Edge of the Mists map seems not that populated and the JP (Obsidian Sanctum) also is pretty empty often.

And in general I didn't notice that many sieges and player chat activity. I remember back then when lord room in the keep and the walls were full of siege to defend. There seem to be "just a few" sieges that get placed.

Commander using mainly teamspeak ... so I guess it is not very appealing to new players if they come to join and the chat is pretty empty.

Imo it is not a game mode that can attract new players. Just the experienced ones that like it ... trying to keep it alive.I might visit there every now and then for achievements, some fights and loot collecting. But yeah ... points and rankings of the servers - I don't care. I noticed it is still fun to defend and attack keeps. Especially if the zergs are only medium sized (which seems normal during weekday because of the low population). But I don't really care about upgrading or defending if the structure is upgraded to a higher level. It might get lost anyways during the night. (But that was a problem that was already the same back then years ago I think. Though I liked the system with paying to upgrade a bit more. Makes you wanna defend it harder if someone paid for the upgrade.)

Strategy: Always the same (which gets boring): Super quickly spam some superior/guild sieges to try moving in quickly while the enemy is away - to cap. Besides the home borderland (seems to be most popular map) and EB the own/close keeps it is just that. Only when it comes ot that keep people defended. At least on my server. (Underworld ... atm linked with Drakkar Lake.)

I think the maps could profilt from a bit more side events. Acid rain storm or super monster attacking the keeps to destroy the walls a bit - to get players to react and split up. (Only real think when you are in trouble is when both other sides attack you at the same time. Then it gets interesting a bit.)

So - what do the other players think? Players that played back then and that are playing now? (Especially the ones that also experienced WvW from 2014-2019 where I did not play.) And other big changes where the situation had been different in those years? Or just a gradually decreasing and less motivated playerbase with besides that everything staying the same?

Honestly, its really the game is just suffering from lack of content cadence. (We've had no content really added to the mode since HoT) It's showing its age and its clear it needs some new maps; Some new shinnies and the rank (Personal rank) and (Server rank/linking/alliance whatever hoo-ha) added and reworked to make it more functional. I believe also with the current state of balance the game is in a worse, if not the WORST place for PvP right now... some classes/specs are good and some just aren't and it is even more noticeable as we've only had "Half the balance patch."

We need actual content, and meat for the mode... hopefully they can deliver soon... (Doubtful, likely its on a table somewhere.)

[Luthan.5236]

@"drashy.4587"Yeah, I noticed this as well with the previous link. I mean I play in EU on Underworld since release. (Just that I didn't play WvW at all from 2014-2020. German and I like to avoid the German servers because German and French tend to take the competitive stuff a bit "too serious".)

Imo it is bad to have that huge of a gap between servers in T5. Feels like they should have split all those servers and liked them with others and no T5. (I mean ... for the 2 at the very bottom it would not have mattered if they had linked them to some top server that was without. If those 2 had close to 2 player not much imbalance to link them to some server that already is strong itself. Or maybe link 3 servers together at the lower tiers so it fits with only 4 tiers.)

Or completely merge some servers?

For the defending I noticed no squads visible at all. Or squads that only run to the enemy to cap ... and returning too late when we need to defend. There are contested icons on the map and they ask "how is objective xy" and only every now and then some scout answers. Or sometimes the scouts are already there and like "wall x percent" but there is no immediate reaction. Queue on map. But they only react when it is too late.

I everyone is on EB and on borderlands some keep is in trouble they will only react if big enemy squad is announced at inner walls already. (And home borderland garrison has higher priority other BL sides get easier ignored.) Then you get still queue and not enough people online/ner the attacked keep because some are doing other stuff.

It actually is weird ... but the queue system also gets people to not leave EB because they like EB and there is queue. If they switched to help at borderlands they might need to re-queue for EB again.

---

The last night after re-linking with new like Elona Reach and Underworld I noticed a bigger/longer queue. Took me 2 hours to get into EB. By then id did seem boring and not much action at all. Commander waiting in own keep announcing TS and that he is planning stuff. Well ... I went offline after I got into EB. Seemed boring and like nothign happened. I prefer if constantly huge attacks happen and if we can defend as well. (I actually prefer the defensive play.)

For the borderlands I noticed more defensive reaction from Elona server. When they even tried to (and managed to do so in last minute) to defend a tower. EB our corner seemed to be defended as well.

But I guess with stronger server in this link the time directly after reset might be boring. if you don't get in immediatetly (I can only join about half an our later and then 2 hour queue in EB.)

So I quess I'll wait until off primetime during week when a lot of players might work and less queue even in the evening.

I wished there was more often the defensive action near the caps. T3 camp with 300 supplies can mean a bit more supplies over T1 camp that gets emptied fast and then zerg needs to take supplies from elswehre as well. I will see how this works with this link since the other server seems to be stronger and more organizsed.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Luthan.5236 said:Imo it is bad to have that huge of a gap between servers in T5. Feels like they should have split all those servers and liked them with others and no T5. (I mean ... for the 2 at the very bottom it would not have mattered if they had linked them to some top server that was without. If those 2 had close to 2 player not much imbalance to link them to some server that already is strong itself. Or maybe link 3 servers together at the lower tiers so it fits with only 4 tiers.)

Or completely merge some servers?There was something Anet intended to implement in order to fix this but the name for it has slipped my mind.

[Custodio.6134]

@"Archangel.3508" said:I would say that the state of wvw is pretty dull nowadays. The guild groups stack and wait for cooldowns to recharge and then just all charge together, cast, restack and recharge... its not exactly rocket science and makes the experience pretty dull for everyone concerned. It is a direct response to the limited number of targets that can be hit by aoes - if the max number of targets is 5 and there are 50 in your zerg all bunching together, only another large group can hurt you, otherwise you are pretty much invincible and the whole game is no more than a procession.

This is not 100% true. The guild groups basically don´t have a much different gameplay than a public zerk. The big difference is the way guild-players play together in an internal raid, compared to "random" players playing together in a public squad. Guilds very often have a specific setup of their party, where every member always plays the same class with the same build. So, let´s say, you have 30ppl in a guild-squad, everyone of them:

• is expierienced in their class (most of the time)-is in voice-chat-plays together with the same people of their subgroup in almost every guild-raid-knows exactly what build the other members play

Other differences between a "normal" and a guild-internal lead often depend on the commander too. The tactical decisions are made different as a guild. For examples:-faster calls in voice (in public, commanders often leave som short time after calls for the players to react, this time often gets cut short or gets dropped completely in guild-groups)-different tactics, especially on skill-usage (example: smoke-blasts, but you increase the resulting stealth duration by swapping weapons and skills while blasting to get more smoke-fields/blasts per player)

This is basically the difference between a guild squad and a public zerk (there is more ofc, but these are the ones i think that stand out). And guild fights most of the time prove, that quality>quantity. I have already seen (as well as done with my guild) stuff before, that you cannot even imagine to do with a "random" public squad.Stuff like: buffing up-->stealth-->engaging 15vs50 and winning the fight.

[Custodio.6134]

I believe also with the current state of balance the game is in a worse, if not the WORST place for PvP right now... some classes/specs are good and some just aren't and it is even more noticeable as we've only had "Half the balance patch."

We need actual content, and meat for the mode... hopefully they can deliver soon... (Doubtful, likely its on a table somewhere.)

About the point with some classes just not being good in WvW:at least in roaming and guild-groups, every class has a place to be. Although they are restricted to certain builds, and some are valued higher than others.In Zerking, this is correct. Not every spec is good in zerking, and some classes are even less effective than the worst possible build of others.BUT: ANet already stated long ago and multiple times, that they have no intention to make every class 100% perfectly balanced and worth playing in every part of wvw (roaming/smallscale/Zerking...). Because, balancing every single spec of every single class, for every type of gameplay that work totally different, with skills that interact with each other so much... it is literally impossible to bring perfect balance to everyone. No matter what you do, if do the slightes change to one single skill/trait, it WILL influence other skills/traits as well. At that point, as a balancing team, you will have to abandon some types of gameplay in specific areas, in order to not break too much in other ones.long story short: "perfect balance" is neither possible, nor intended to ever happen.

[Dayra.7405]

P2W (winner decided by transfers every 8 weeks).

[Zok.4956]

@"Luthan.5236" said:And in general I didn't notice that many sieges and player chat activity. I remember back then when lord room in the keep and the walls were full of siege to defend. There seem to be "just a few" sieges that get placed.

There are servers that use more sieges, and there are servers, that don't care about.

Some good positioned sieges do help for a while to defend objectives against a bigger zerg. But if players are only hiding behind sieges, they can only delay the inevitable. Sieges give support but still players are neded that fight directly against enemy and push. On servers, where there are not enough players to defend or where they are afraid to push, sieges are often useless defending. And if zergs/guilds/players do not care about defending objectives (EOTM style karm train) and do not help when asked for in chat, there are also less sieges. Why defend, when you get more exp and karma, if you can just flip it back afterwards.

Strategy: Always the same (which gets boring): Super quickly spam some superior/guild sieges to try moving in quickly while the enemy is away - to cap. Besides the home borderland (seems to be most popular map) and EB the own/close keeps it is just that. Only when it comes ot that keep people defended. At least on my server. (Underworld ... atm linked with Drakkar Lake.)

Yeah, thats the EOTM style karma train. But not all servers are like this all the time.

I think the maps could profilt from a bit more side events. Acid rain storm or super monster attacking the keeps to destroy the walls a bit - to get players to react and split up. (Only real think when you are in trouble is when both other sides attack you at the same time. Then it gets interesting a bit.)

The desert borderland had side events at first when it was released. But they were removed because a lot of the "fight guilds" hated these and left.

[Mokk.2397]

@"Custodio.6134" said:

I believe also with the current state of balance the game is in a worse, if not the WORST place for PvP right now... some classes/specs are good and some just aren't and it is even more noticeable as we've only had "Half the balance patch."

We need actual content, and meat for the mode... hopefully they can deliver soon... (Doubtful, likely its on a table somewhere.)

About the point with some classes just not being good in WvW:at least in roaming and guild-groups, every class has a place to be. Although they are restricted to certain builds, and some are valued higher than others.In Zerking, this is correct. Not every spec is good in zerking, and some classes are even less effective than the worst possible build of others.BUT: ANet already stated long ago and multiple times, that they have no intention to make every class 100% perfectly balanced and worth playing in every part of wvw (roaming/smallscale/Zerking...). Because, balancing every single spec of every single class, for every type of gameplay that work totally different, with skills that interact with each other so much... it is literally impossible to bring perfect balance to everyone. No matter what you do, if do the slightes change to one single skill/trait, it WILL influence other skills/traits as well. At that point, as a balancing team, you will have to abandon some types of gameplay in specific areas, in order to not break too much in other ones.long story short: "perfect balance" is neither possible, nor intended to ever happen.

That's absolutely true that 100% balance is impossible but it can be close. You don't do it by giving classes more of what they already have . You give classes more of what they don't have . The introduction of HoT got it right more or less and only needed small adjustments to make it work . But the introduction of PoF put the balance completely out of wack . The damage and heal nerf did not fix the class balance issue but merely lowered the bar for all classes . And even then many skills and traits managed to slip through the cracks .

[KeyOrion.9506]

WvW is like rich chocolate. If you eat too much, you'll get a tummy ache, and get sick of it. Taken in moderation it's not bad.