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KPs good in high population - KPs bad in low population - No KPs is good in low population


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@"Cyninja.2954" I tag you because you have the strongest stance to argue and I'm curious what you have to say.

Lately I haven't been able to be on at reset. I'm on NA servers. Lately I have to try and complete my fractal runs in between the hours of 2:00 am and 2:00 pm eastern time zone. This is not preferable, but it's just what I have to do right now. Of course you know, participating CM level player base is low at these times in the LFG. Some days are better than others and you get a group within 5 minutes, but other days a group won't form at all and you just have to go do something else for awhile and try again later.

So I feel like a lot of where some people's stance on the matter is coming from, is the standpoint of players who have the luxury of being able to log in around reset each night when the participating CM player base is high. It is important to note that this time frame is small, and not all of us have that luxury.

Here is the type of garbage that happens during off peak hours due to the imminence front of KPs. This just happened to me last night, and the entire time it was unfolding, I couldn't help but to have this thread on my mind https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/114669/no-kp-for-cm-fractals-is-that-gonna-increase-toxicity

  1. It's like 2:00 am eastern and I get some time to log in and try to run fractals.
  2. I search the LFG. Unfortunately I see no groups who want to run 100 Sunqua CM, they are all posted as 99/98 CM T4s. I see 3 different CM groups, 3 of them. There is a group with a BS War sitting in it by himself asking for a HB/Alac of 100 ESS. There is another group posting for 50 ESS that has a guardian and a thief sitting in it, and they are asking for alac/bs or dps. Then there is the third group that is a no ESS required CM listing that has a Rev sitting in it who is asking for HB. And then you have me looking to run CM T4s, which I main Soulbeast DPS but can adequately fill HB or Alac or BS if the group needs it.
  3. I analyze the situation and it hilariously occurs to me that we have a full group of players online at that very moment who want to run 99/98 CM T4s, who encompass a meta fractal party, yet they are divided into different parties due to KP ESS gating. I figured I would wait a few minutes and see which party was getting the most joins, and then I'd jump into the party that was filling the quickest because well, waiting around at 2:00 am in the morning is really boring. I don't care if my group is 90000 KPs or 0, I just want to start and get to playing. I don't really care if my run is +10 minutes or -10 minutes off the usual time frame.
  4. Must have been something like 5 minutes later, no one was joining any of those groups. I figured I'd take initiative and try to get the night moving because well, waiting sucks. So I joined the 100 ESS group and said to the guy: "Hey we've got two other groups in the LFG who would make for HB/Alac and another DPS. You want to just merge with these guys so we don't have to wait?" He proceeded to move around the fractal lobby so I know he wasn't AFK, but he didn't respond. I sat in there with him for another 5 minutes or so as I watched the LFG. I was ready to bail on him if the other groups were filling, but no one was joining any of these groups. I said to him again: "Yo, you want to merge with at least the 50 KP group?" Then he left party and vanished.
  5. So I merged with the 50 ESS group and joined their instance, which was a HB and a Daredevil. I immediately said to these guys: "You guys want to merge in that no KP Rev sitting down there in the LFG? Might as well at off peak hours" HB says to me: "Let's wait a few more minutes. People will join." So we wait another 5 minutes or something and another Soulbeast joins. I logged off and back on as Ren for those guys and told them we should just start while waiting for 5th. They seemed to agree but when the ready box popped up, lo and behold the Daredevil had apparently gone AFK during the wait and wasn't hitting ready. The Soulbeast quickly grew frustrated and within a couple minutes of waiting he left the party and vanished. The Daredevil quickly had returned after the Soulbeast left and said he was sorry, that he had his internet browser up in the background while we were waiting. We waited what must have been another 5 minutes or so, and at that point I had actually turned on Netflix in the background while we were waiting. Then the HB just up and left without saying anything.
  6. I left that group from the Daredevil and joined the no ESS required Rev who was now sitting with a Reaper in his group. I logged into HB for them and asked if it was ok if I changed the LFG to something that would just get players in there so we could start, because the wait times were kind of ridiculous that night. They said sure and I changed the LFG to "99/98 CM All Welcome +2 DPS" and then the group filled with +2 DPS within 60s and we began the CMs. It was a 20m to 30m run, no problems, went smoothly. And I couldn't help to think that if I had just joined this group to begin with, I could have saved myself 30 minutes of dinking around that night. And if I hadn't joined that group, I wouldn't have been able to form an ESS req group at all, unless I wanted to tank an inordinate amount of waiting.

So a few things to note:

  1. In a high population game that maintains high participation even during off peak hours, KPs are a wonderful system to utilize.
  2. In a lower population game, for those who can log in right at reset during peak hours, KPs are still a wonderful system to utilize.
  3. In a low population game, for those who are unable to log in at peak hours, KPs become a toxic system that in some cases completely prevents a group of players from joining together to play content at all. This is because of a placebo effect where the KPs change how players think. The KPs make them believe they are entitled to a standard of play efficiency and it makes them refuse to settle for less. This often results in players wanting to wait out inordinate amounts of time to achieve some desired party standard of efficiency before even beginning play. Even if they waited 20 minutes and failed to form the desired party standard, they'd rather log offline and try again tomorrow, than just get started playing with lowered standards. This is a large portion of the reason why raids died. KP Placebo. It's not that high KP participants believe the low KP participants will fail to complete the content, it's that high KP participants believe the low KPs can't run it properly. And if the high KPs cant' run it properly, they'd rather not run it all.
  4. ^ That is the very essence of "gamer elitism" where players become so knit picky about how they play, that they don't want to play at all unless everything is perfect. I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, but I am saying that it creates segregation within the community and when population gets low a decade into the game's lifespan, that segregation begins to kill game modes entirely, because players don't want to play together or can't play with certain players or won't allow certain players to play with them, all because of KP segregation. This very real effect can be exampled through the life & death of raids and the story I have written here in this thread.

If players want to live the KP life, they need to understand what they're encouraging within the community's sociology & communication and what they're injecting in the bloodstream of the game's lifeline. And they should understand that maybe this debacle over KPs is less about how a player feel subjectively during their nightly fractal run in the immediate heat of the debate, and a lot more about what can be done to ensure we have an active game mode to keep playing at all, in the coming years of Guild Wars 2.

Sometimes people vouch for things they don't fully understand the full consequences of, myself included.

What is written in this thread is simply what I have noticed to be the eventual cause & effect of KPs in Guild Wars 2 game modes. And that's even including rating & badge icons in competitive modes. It's the same thing, essentially it's KPs, and it has every bit the same exact social consequences as it does with KPs in pve modes.

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That's a lot of words to say that people who are unwilling to compromise on their criteria will wait longer than people who are willing. And, that those wait times increase substantially as the population drops, becoming more noticeable during off-peak hours.

Moreover, I didn't see any examples of hostility, let alone toxicity: one player was slightly rude (didn't reply) and some were more willing to wait than you.

PS while some people insist on KP past the point of common sense (as is their right), I'm sure we both know tons of people that hate to wipe-and-try-again more than they mind waiting. One can do other stuff while waiting, but not when wiping. For many, it's not about completing the content as quickly as possible, but more about wanting a worry-free experience. Struggling through for the Nth time is draining, to many. It's not what people are looking for in their "high end content" experience. (And yes, mileage varies.)

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I just want to point out that KPs are not inherently toxic. They are simply a measure used to facilitate filtering players in group content. It’s no different from requesting specific classes or roles.

Players have different mindsets when it comes to the game and often prefer to play with similar players. For example, there are players who want quick and smooth runs and there others who don’t prioritize that.

This is where KP comes into play. KP is used as a measure of one’s experience in a particular encounter. It can also be used to imply someone’s experience with similar content. Is it 100% accurate? No. However, it’s the best that we’ve got.

Players are well within their right to determine who they want to play with in their own groups. There’s nothing toxic about this. The toxicity comes from those who feel they are entitled to join any group that they want.

Tldr; Create your own group if you don’t like the requirements of others.

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Yeah, I gotcha.

I guess my ultimate point here is that if people aren't willing to play together, we won't have a game left to play.

Normally I wouldn't have thought that fractals would have been in the threat zone for a problem like this, similar to what killed raid activity. But the more CM fractals they add, the more specialization that is indeed required to be able to complete the content in a timely fashion, which makes for rising expectational standards.

Fractal group activity & sociology is becoming raid like and it will soon face the same problems. I don't have the best answer to the problem or any suggestions at all really. I'm just here to point out that KPs although a great system to distinguish & highlight efficiency, are a double edged sword vs. the longevity of community cohesion.

Play how you want.

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Many players with low experience feel "discriminated" with the high kp demands and they feel that they can perform as good as players with high KP. It is completely wrong. I have experienced so many times people join my groups and say if they can join with the half of the kps demanded. Why would they do that ? The waiting times of low kp/no kp is 0. You can create an all welcome/all classes group for CMs and see your group fill in a second. And each time I've accepted them I have regreted. They say "trust me I am good" then die instantly and ask why there are no heals in a no healer comp. Literally today somebody asked a qfb to heal him with f2 tome "because he can", and it was qfbs fault that he died from a oneshot mechanic. In reality it was my fault that I have accepted him to our group while he didn't meet the requirements. So yes, I'd rather wait an hour or not play at all than experience these kinds of things. 150 KP is the MINIMAL that can assure you somewhat calm chill non toxic and smooth run. If you got no KP, just train and stack some red celestial infusions.

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@armen,I have over 500 kp but I have never played without healer in CM.So can I do it without healer?Sure I can not do it. Not without few dry runs.Kp means garbage after 50 or so.Btw, those 150+kp people that you pug, they started from 0. And, you get to enjoy playing with them because people like me showing them rope and giving them chance.If everyone thought the way you do, you are right that you would be waiting hr or not play .

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first comment: if people do lfg group, this is not mean that thay not have alternative.Example: so I make group, ask 300kp. Currently solo on wvw., or open map, or do so hearts, So I people come - and have requirements - ok, not come - no problem.mostly many cms player when do group can do it 1 hour, 2 hours .. no matter and await is ok.

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@Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:@armen,I have over 500 kp but I have never played without healer in CM.So can I do it without healer?Sure I can not do it. Not without few dry runs.Kp means garbage after 50 or so.Btw, those 150+kp people that you pug, they started from 0. And, you get to enjoy playing with them because people like me showing them rope and giving them chance.If everyone thought the way you do, you are right that you would be waiting hr or not play .

I will quote you:

@Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:I dont see point on this. Fractal lfg has not been problem for mostly none of us. It will only breed problem.Why look for solution when there is no problem.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1302978#Comment_1302978

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Honestly I've seen the exact same thing happen multiple times with a bunch of no KP groups, same KP groups, or in different content like Dungeons which doesn't even have KP.

People just want to sit comfortably and let someone else manage the LFG or for people to join in after their rules, rather than merge around and adapt etc.

While KP can play a minor additional role in this, it's once again not mainly a systemic issue or flaw with KP.

What I do agree with though is that KP wouldn't at all be an issue if the player base (and for that to happen content release cadence for hardcore content) would be much more healthy, with especially non-hardcore players just making their own groups.If there is barely any (new) content and there is just a very small super dedicated playerbase with high requirements left, then ofc that's hard to get into and problematic.But the issue there aren't the dedicated players and their requirements, it's the lack of alternatives caused by lack of new content, lack of new player influxes, and nobody else stepping up and just making their own non-requirement LFG's.

Also just in general the community culture of non communication which the majority of ingame content bred.If 99% of the game, be it open world bosses, meta events, trading, story etc. etc. etc never require any communication, grouping, compromising, adaptation etc., you can't suddenly expect people to be (pro-)active in managing groups for Fractals and content like it, communicating with each other cross groups to sort things out.

The vast majority of people just want to join a listing and at most communicate their role, not even make their own LFG. That's the level of socialisation we are at in GW2. That has nothing to do with KP though.

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I'll have to agree with what @"Asum.4960" said, but I'll explain my position as well:

First and foremost, yes the biggest issue any content in this game faces is player loss. This is in general mostly related to content updates and replay value (both fun as well as reward wise or both). Let's not unpack this issue, but this has been visible in every area of the game:

  • when living world was lacking, there was a noticeable player loss (with minor exception when big content patches where on the horizon, like pre HoT or pre PoF where anticipation kept players longer engaged),
  • Spvp and WvW have not seen content in a long time and both game modes are worse off for it. The "light content patches" in form of balance updates which shifted the meta are far and few between, and even those some players would not call content
  • the same goes for challenging instanced content in this game. There is a benefit to keeping a certain meta alive and healthy (any one remember the balance patches which required chronos to change their entire gear every 3 months? I do) because it allows easier access to this content. At the same time it grows stale for veteran players while remaining accessible for newer players.
  • the issue with challenging instanced content for players at the top end: the only way is up or quit or just keep doing a monotonous grind over and over. That's what 300-500+ KP groups are, because no one can tell me the content is fresh to them after running something 150-300 times.

The main problem, and this is at the core of the issue:

  • some players are devoted, organized, willing, and active in forming groups, finding communities, honing their skills and just sticking with the grind.
  • others are less devoted, less organized, less willing, less active, which all in all is fine, but this group will not mesh well with the former one by simple difference in approach

The argument came up lately that high KP groups take over the LFG. That is nonsense. The reality is: the more hardcore players stick with the content longer, try to master it further and drop out later. In essence the new ceiling above T4 fractals are CMs. What used to be good and bad T4 groups has turned more and more into only bad T4 groups and the necessity to run CMs only to be able to find a consistent performing group. The reasons for this are many: far easier and cheaper access to ascended gear, faster way to skip to T4, far more viable classes to run T4 and predominantly HEALERS which make any and all challenge and reward gating in T4 meaningless. No matter how bad you are, if a healer has you back, you will get that T4 done even with your 3k dps nomad build.

Where does that leave us?The newest fractals took 18 months to release, with the former 2-3 years of fractals having no challenge mode (Shattered Observatory was added with One Path Ends on July 25th, 2017!). It's not that hardcore players are keeping more casual players out or causing more casual players to quit. It's that in these 3 years, predominantly hardcore players are the only ones LEFT.

The new fractal release caused a spike in attention, a lot more activity, prices for agony infusions +1 went up by 30-40% reaching an all time high. It's content or lack of content which causes player drought, and among the remaining players, more hardcore ones are slower to leave. I am using the terms hardcore and casual in a very wide net here, sort of to represent two opposite sides of the spectrum. The meaning in general being more related to how long a player stuck with the content, not how good he is at it. Hardcore in this case meaning, if you have been playing fractals daily, even on T2 or T3 for 2 years non stop, you are hardcore (though I believe most of those players would have moved to T4 eventually).

I am no fan of KP or player separation, but I understand the reason behind it. I made posts about the game needing a reword of the LFG system for years. Here is the other problem though:

  • I personally don't want to much raid or fractal content or to have this game turn into a more raid or instanced centric game. GW2 is great because of it's narrative and open world approach (I'll get some comments for this in my raid static discord, I can feel it)
  • what I disagree with is the complete LACK and ABANDONMENT of this content, then at the same time the complaints that the few surviving players who stick it out try to organize to make the best of it (granted not from the developers but more from parts of the player base). Some of us are trying, those training discords, the helping commanders, none of them get paid for all that, and yet even that is not enough to stem the tides of lack of content.
  • 1 or 2 fractals per year, 1 or 2 raid wings per year, that's all it would take to keep the more engaged players happy and give new players an opportunity to get into the content. Each new release also poses a great way for new players to get into the content because the overall engagement goes up, old players return, guild start trying the content. That was highly successful with strikes I believe, for the first 4-8 weeks. Then the engagement of the more casual, less instanced players dropped and the more dedicated "farming" players were the only ones left.

TL;DR:The current KP issue is far more complex than just segregation of the player community. It stems from lack of control and flexibility in group creation, communication and efficiency (which its self is rooted in one of the most complex class system you will find in any current gen MMORPG, don't kid yourself, no other MMORPG right now is this complex class design wise and another batch of elites might be on their way. Great for a game and people who love to min-max. Absolutely terrible as far as group composition, similar performance, abilities, etc goes). KP are a player made solution to deal with of lack of content and the resulting effect of: stay complacent for years (I believe the fewest players play the same content the exact same way for multiple years), improve (make the content interesting by honing ones skills as to overcome the content as best as one can) or drop out (everybody who just gets bored and quits, no matter the skill level).

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It is time to move on to another game if you are unable to find enough like-minded people to run group content with, especially if this group content is the only thing you enjoy. Removing the very few means avaible to us to ensure we find the few remaining like-minded or equally experienced players will not make us stay, just like it will not make us suddenly enjoy playing the game in a more casual manner.

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@Henry.5713 said:It is time to move on to another game if you are unable to find enough like-minded people to run group content with, especially if this group content is the only thing you enjoy. Removing the very few means avaible to us to ensure we find the few remaining like-minded or equally experienced players will not make us stay, just like it will not make us suddenly enjoy playing the game in a more casual manner.

Literally every word you just said in every way examples what I said about how KPs changes how a player thinks.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

KP are a player made solution to deal with of lack of content and the resulting effect of: stay complacent for years (I believe the fewest players play the same content the exact same way for multiple years), improve (make the content interesting by honing ones skills as to overcome the content as best as one can) or drop out (everybody who just gets bored and quits, no matter the skill level).

Tbh there could be a 4th option: try new ways of doing the old things. Yush, new things aren't meta but does everything need to be always optimal, always done in the same way again and and again for hundreds of times. ANYONE would get bored from that yet the hardcore player base insists on doing things that way, whine about lack of challenging content and how things are getting boring. In all honesty, Kitty actually finds hardcore community's way of thinking very illogical: they always try to cheese the content by taking the easiest way out (if you actually do the friggin mechanics instead of phasing with high dps before bosses do anything, stuff can actually get challenging) and they whine when balance changes to shake things up and they need to learn a new rotation. So yeah...

Tbh, one of the big reasons why Kitty keeps on theorizing new comps, builds and strategies is to keep things fresh and challenging while still imbuing failsafes in case stuff goes wrong into her tactics and she's adding and stripping those failsafes as needed... Or abusing them to greeeeeed. What Kitty does isn't the most optimal way to play but she compensates by trying harder to get as close to optimal results on something that underperforms or needs to take a harder route to get the same results. And sometimes Kitty's strats are even more guaranteed to clear content that what people generally use simply due to abusing some gimmicks that are minor dps losses but make dying very difficult and allowing Kitty to do some extremely greedy stuff for extra dps that builds benching 3-5k higher can't even dream about doing.So, tl;dr metacentric hardcore community are themselves causing the very problems they have which could be partly remedied with change of attitude and Anet can't do much to fix them.

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@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

KP are a player made solution to deal with of lack of content and the resulting effect of: stay complacent for years (I believe the fewest players play the same content the exact same way for multiple years), improve (make the content interesting by honing ones skills as to overcome the content as best as one can) or drop out (everybody who just gets bored and quits, no matter the skill level).

Tbh there could be a 4th option: try new ways of doing the old things. Yush, new things aren't meta but does everything need to be always optimal, always done in the same way again and and again for hundreds of times. ANYONE would get bored from that yet the hardcore player base insists on doing things that way, whine about lack of challenging content and how things are getting boring. In all honesty, Kitty actually finds hardcore community's way of thinking very illogical: they always try to cheese the content by taking the easiest way out (if you actually do the friggin mechanics instead of phasing with high dps before bosses do anything, stuff can actually get challenging) and they whine when balance changes to shake things up and they need to learn a new rotation. So yeah...

Tbh, one of the big reasons why Kitty keeps on theorizing new comps, builds and strategies is to keep things fresh and challenging while still imbuing failsafes in case stuff goes wrong into her tactics and she's adding and stripping those failsafes as needed... Or abusing them to greeeeeed. What Kitty does isn't the most optimal way to play but she compensates by trying harder to get as close to optimal results on something that underperforms or needs to take a harder route to get the same results. And sometimes Kitty's strats are even more guaranteed to clear content that what people generally use simply due to abusing some gimmicks that are minor dps losses but make dying very difficult and allowing Kitty to do some extremely greedy stuff for extra dps that builds benching 3-5k higher can't even dream about doing.

True, but again, you are implying that this is not already the case, which it is. There are a lot of "safe" strats or players, only that those do not get communicated as well as top end strats. Good examples here: heal tempest and heal scourge, which are great carries to make certain content irrelevant.

People need to remember 1 thing: the mainstream developments are just that MAINSTREAM. There are tons of players trying out stuff: for example power reaper or similar builds, and the argument which goes along there, are more than viable for smooth and clean clears (the biggest exception here might be support compositions since damage dealers are often interchangeable and there is a lack of equal support compositions with access to the required/desired boons).

That is not the point though. The point is: the vast majority of players will gravitate to the least amount of effort for the biggest reward (within the scope of their understanding of the game, which for many is lacking when they simply copy/paste other people's work) and this is unrelated to how many players decide to go "off meta". Which again is another issue within its self: going off meta actually requires MORE and BETTER game knowledge, which players who are struggling with the current content will not have. Which results in even more shun of off meta builds.

Also of note here again: KP are actually a solution to this issue. If someone comes along with the required KP, even on an off meta build, chance are far higher that the group will let it slide, expecting that the player knows what he is doing, even on a theoretically sub-optimal build/class. Unfortunately, the discussion for and against KP gets be-muddled because the different benefits and detriments get lumped together. If you lack KP and thus have issues with group acceptance, that is not the same as not being able to play on a non meta build, which can also lead to lack of group acceptance.

@LadyKitty.6120 said:So, tl;dr metacentric hardcore community are themselves causing the very problems they have which could be partly remedied with change of attitude and Anet can't do much to fix them.

That is just a superficial analysis of multiple reasons as to WHY meta builds get adopted by many players. The first and foremost reason being: game population wide lack of class understanding in all of it's possible varieties both on one hand from players who want to push the boundaries to the max (and likely have the experience needed to deviate from those meta classes, but chose not to) and on the other hand of simple copy paste players who simply take other people's builds (and very likely lack the actual experience themselves to deviate from these builds) without actually having the capacity to expand upon these (or the desire to do so).

TL;DR:

  • Players who have the skill and ability to deviate from meta builds chose to do so, or not, depending on how they feel. These players are a vast minority and will not affect a change in the meta.
  • Players who lack the skill and ability to deviate from meta builds are reliant on using builds they did not come up with themselves, and lack the ability to make better builds in the first place, thus preventing them from evoking a meta shift. These players are a vast majority (sort of like sheep following a sheepherder).
  • KP if used as a determining factor or judgement of player experience, in a similar way as damage meters, can actually alleviate this issue because the focus gets put on the performance or expected performance (for KP it is expected performance, for damage meters it is visible performance) of the player instead of the class they bring.
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@LadyKitty.6120 Couldn't agree more with your post. I get bored and experiment with extremely alternative builds all of the time. Not only are some of them surprisingly effective, but others in my opinion challenge or replace current metas for several reasons. I subscribed to your channel btw. Interesting & fresh.

@"Cyninja.2954" So many people adhere to posted meta because it's commercial & easy to do, due to sites like snowcrows or metabattle. It's the same reason why people buy a Coca Cola or a Pepsi when they stop at a gas station if they want a soda pop. Are these necessarily the best flavors possible that a man could configure into a soda pop? Probably not but it's really convenient and easily available, acceptable. Trying to sit at home and build your own soda pop requires effort. Then even if your home brew soda pop is honestly better than mainstream commercial soda pop, convincing people at a party preparation to let you bring a case of your home brew in place of something mainstream that people know and accept isn't so easy to do because well, it's a lot easier to just bring a case of Coca Cola or Mountain Dew, that we all know everyone already likes and will accept without any fuss.

Current posted commercial metas focus on one and one thing only and that is maximum levels of DPS, and then they build everything else around that. This is great for some players who are dedicated enough or possess enough inherent gamer aptitude or who are patient enough to adapt to it. For years I viewed these commercial metas as something that helped the community cross the bridge of comp organization confusion, to give them something to agree on. But lately I am beginning to question that.

A few things:

  1. Traditional commercial metas focus on DPS. Many of the builds they encourage to use don't even individually possess a single stun break or defensive trait/utility. For very experienced players who want to push speed clears to the limit, this is great. But it isn't optimized in terms of allowing a group high success rates in completing the content, unless they are very experienced.
  2. Raid participation dropped through the floor into a state that most people would say "it's dead" and this happened due to many circumstances. Might I note the keyword there is "circumstances" as in, I don't believe Raid participation needed to die or was fated to die due to some design error on the programmer's part. It was all circumstantial in the aspect that commercial meta expectation as noted in 1), segregated the community and the veterans were sort of tricked into believing that Raids should only be ran while using commercial meta. Then we had a problem brewing, which eventually led to groups being too difficult to access for newcomers. Three reasons for this mainly, which happen in steps: (A) If not running commercial meta = kick, regardless of the player's aptitude. Then (B) Make a meta and still get kicked because not experienced enough or not meeting DPS expectations. And then © Try to practice with other new players who all also believe they are supposed to be running commercial meta, who wipe constantly who can't survive, no one gets anything done, and players eventually decide the hassle isn't worth the reward so they stop showing up. <- All of this diminishing player base is a symptom of people believing they must run commercial dps meta designed for high-end veteran play. They immediately get booted out of squads when they don't. So can you blame them when they just stop showing up?
  3. I believe that the complete disappearance of commercial meta sites would eventually re-inspire much more participation in a mode like Raids, given an amount of time where the commercial mind effect of meta expectations began to diminish. Then groups both veteran and newcomers, would begin allowing players into squads again based on general needs rather than perfections. And when that happened, I think everyone would be surprised at how many players would show up and participate if their more survivable builds that were missing 10-15% top DPS were acceptable rather than a reason to instant kick.

Obviously we'll never see the disappearance of meta websites, they bring in too many hits to ever go away. But imagine if the people making the decisions behind posted commercial meta were to go about the posted meta in a different way. Imagine if posted meta purposely dropped about 10% to 15% of dps off every build in place of granting those builds double or triple the sustain & survivability. Now you have a meta where players don't need to be veterans or highly dedicated or possess peak aptitude to be able to get involved in. Now you have a meta that is approachable for newcomers, where they can make mistakes during a raid and not immediately wipe, which gives them time to actually learn the raid mechanics without it being too frustrating to deal with or overly difficult. If this were to happen, and social expectations shifted towards that, there would be a lot more people interested to get involved in raids again. And the thing is, it wouldn't complicate high-end veteran dps meta at all. They can continue on in their guilds and LFG postings as usual. What's important is giving the more casual player base some kind of a new standard to agree on, something that works that isn't as fast of a clear, that is safer and more approachable. Honestly these commercial websites need to post for a "High Risk High Reward Meta" for the usual DPS oriented metas, and then also give an organization that works for a "Safe Completion Meta" so players who are playing like this have an arrangement to agree upon as well. Then in LFGs you could see a squad formation like: "HRHR wing 1" or "SCM Wing 2". <- I mean, that would very seriously solve so many problems. Not even sure why this hasn't already been organized.

Anyway, my point in bring all of this up was to point out how powerful of influence propaganda & commercial is, and how it changes the way an entire community thinks or views something. Just because meta is posted as meta, doesn't mean it is the best way or the only way. It just means that it is the way being promoted & encouraged, which gives the community some standard to base their judgements from. Decide for yourself if you think it's healthy or not.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Honestly these commercial websites need to post for a "High Risk High Reward Meta" for the usual DPS oriented metas, and then also give an organization that works for a "Safe Completion Meta" so players who are playing like this have an arrangement to agree upon as well. Then in LFGs you could see a squad formation like: "HRHR wing 1" or "SCM Wing 2". <- I mean, that would very seriously solve so many problems. Not even sure why this hasn't already been organized.

Anyway, my point in bring all of this up was to point out how powerful of influence propaganda & commercial is, and how it changes the way an entire community thinks or views something. Just because meta is posted as meta, doesn't mean it is the best way or the only way. It just means that it is the way being promoted & encouraged, which gives the community some standard to base their judgements from. Decide for yourself if you think it's healthy or not.

Back in 2018, Kitty actually once had a website (Kittymarks) where she shared easier builds (that were laughed off as jokes since Kitty was derping a lot and she only had 300ish raid kills at that point) and she's also shown tons of simplified builds on her youtube but she's kinda stopped bothering as things that don't really seem to change. She's been just mostly getting flak for challenging the super-exp dps-focused players' views on what less experienced players should do and what'd be the most successful way for them to raid and she's just kinda given up on that after 2,5 years of trying to change things.

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@"Fueki.4753" said:I don't think there is a problem with kill proofs.

If top end players want to split themselves off from the bigger group of players, let them do it.There is no point in trying to force them to play with the average players.

Yes yes, but can't we all agree that the micro example of an mmorpg very adequately mirrors macro examples of real life communities & societies. There are college programs that research mmorpg activity for that very reason. They research things like economics & sociology through mmorpgs because things happen lightning fast in an mmorpg, but it mirrors how things happen in the long term in real life societies. Convenient way to research many things.

My point being is that, the ideology you mention about "let them do what they want" is similar to an anarchist point of view where people believe they should be able to do whatever they want, even if those actions are harming a community in other ways. Of course because this is a video game, people don't care so much to argue why they want something changed so that that bad effect wouldn't be spread through a community due to a small demographic of elites. But in real life, literally wars are fought over such things when a large demographic of people within a community identify that something a small demographic is doing, is creating a lot of problems for the larger demographic. Usually it happens when that small elite demographic goes too far and removes too much QOL from the larger demographic. Then they start fighting.

Yes, this is a video game and you can do whatever you want as there are no laws beyond what Arenanet sets. That's fine, enjoy it. But that doesn't mean that what a player does or encourages is necessarily "ok" or "healthy" for community cohesion or the longevity of the game's health in general. And it certainly doesn't mean that there aren't better ways to go about things that have no yet been noticed.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:My point being is that, the ideology you mention about "let them do what they want" is similar to an anarchist point of view where people believe they should be able to do whatever they want, even if those actions are harming a community in other ways. Of course because this is a video game, people don't care so much to argue why they want something changed so that that bad effect wouldn't be spread through a community due to a small demographic of elites. But in real life, literally wars are fought over such things when a large demographic of people within a community identify that something a small demographic is doing, is creating a lot of problems for the larger demographic. Usually it happens when that small elite demographic goes too far and removes too much QOL from the larger demographic. Then they start fighting.

Yes, this is a video game and you can do whatever you want as there are no laws beyond what Arenanet sets. That's fine, enjoy it. But that doesn't mean that what a player does or encourages is necessarily "ok" or "healthy" for community cohesion or the longevity of the game's health in general. And it certainly doesn't mean that there aren't better ways to go about things that have no yet been noticed.

My point is closer to "If they want to stay inside all day instead of going out and meeting people, let them!" than it is to any pseudo-political form of existence.It's not like those KP-seekers are harming anyone, except the egos of the selfish people that demand top end player to mingle with the average.For all practical applications they are their own little community and not part of the bigger community.It's actually those selfishly demanding people that try to harm both communities.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Obviously we'll never see the disappearance of meta websites, they bring in too many hits to ever go away. But imagine if the people making the decisions behind posted commercial meta were to go about the posted meta in a different way. Imagine if posted meta purposely dropped about 10% to 15% of dps off every build in place of granting those builds double or triple the sustain & survivability. Now you have a meta where players don't need to be veterans or highly dedicated or possess peak aptitude to be able to get involved in. Now you have a meta that is approachable for newcomers, where they can make mistakes during a raid and not immediately wipe, which gives them time to actually learn the raid mechanics without it being too frustrating to deal with or overly difficult. If this were to happen, and social expectations shifted towards that, there would be a lot more people interested to get involved in raids again. And the thing is, it wouldn't complicate high-end veteran dps meta at all. They can continue on in their guilds and LFG postings as usual. What's important is giving the more casual player base some kind of a new standard to agree on, something that works that isn't as fast of a clear, that is safer and more approachable. Honestly these commercial websites need to post for a "High Risk High Reward Meta" for the usual DPS oriented metas, and then also give an organization that works for a "Safe Completion Meta" so players who are playing like this have an arrangement to agree upon as well. Then in LFGs you could see a squad formation like: "HRHR wing 1" or "SCM Wing 2". <- I mean, that would very seriously solve so many problems. Not even sure why this hasn't already been organized.

Anyway, my point in bring all of this up was to point out how powerful of influence propaganda & commercial is, and how it changes the way an entire community thinks or views something. Just because meta is posted as meta, doesn't mean it is the best way or the only way. It just means that it is the way being promoted & encouraged, which gives the community some standard to base their judgements from. Decide for yourself if you think it's healthy or not.

The reason such things haven't been implemented is not because Meta sites are the problem. They provide a valuable service for reference, at which point it's down to what people at large do with it, and that's where the problem is.We live in a society where everybody is being pushed to perform the best to be competitive in a market. To always have the strongest, fastest, newest shiniest whatever.Competency be damned, most people have no idea what's good, great or the best, and don't have the ability to discern that for themselves, let alone knowing what they actually need and what suits them best. And since everybody is special and can do and be everything they want to, ofc everybody is going to go for the fastest and "best" available option, if they can actually handle or benefit from it or not.

So no, I don't put blame on benchmarkers and reviewers and testers for giving people benchmarks and such on cars, graphics cards, video game classes or what have you, objective information to make choices upon is never the issue. The issue is what people then tend to do with that information, thinking being on the top is the only place to and way to be, when really for the vast majority of people being in a healthy middle benefits them so much more.

But being reasonably efficient, healthily middle of the road and having fun and contentedness doesn't sell, it's not supposed to. Have the top end, use the top and be the top end, or gtfo.

What you wish for could "easily" be achieved in game both with things like meta sites and benchmarks existing as well as KP. The problem is the mindset at large, and even if you abolish both of those elements that mindset remains, the way people get there, due to having less objective and good information available, is just more muddled, toxic and actually discriminatory.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:My point being is that, the ideology you mention about "let them do what they want" is similar to an anarchist point of view where people believe they should be able to do whatever they want, even if those actions are harming a community in other ways.

I don't think you quite grasp the concept or at least breadth of anarchy, which considering all the hollywood propaganda and such around, equating it with chaos, violence and selfishness, isn't unsurprising. But especially for example libertarian socialism is more of a rejection of authority and tyranny in favour of the community.Anarchy as a whole though is more focused on personal responsibility as part of a wider, equal, community.If you are looking for a system encouraging personal enrichment, power based hierarchies and self-indulgence at the cost of community, then I'm afraid you won't have to look far - we are in it.

Not to get too political and I don't think, in accordance with Forums rules, it's wise to discuss this here properly on a deeper level, but I did want to respond to at least that.It is interesting how outside ideology does affect gaming communities as a mirror of such after all, although likely not the right place here.

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Low population, high population, i don't care. What i do care about is getting insulted by "new" players that can't prove anything. When i post 100kp or 150 kp on lfg (which is not outrageous), i don't want that new https: killproof.me nonsense. If there is a required "old"kp amount on lfg, you spam it or you don't join, simple as that. Not our fault if anet changed the kp system. And since the new release, leechers have become a huge pain. Learn your class, do training runs and don't insult those who call you out an your lies.

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@36F0A0BB-7480-4A73-8575-EED6DF06FE19 said:Low population, high population, i don't care. What i do care about is getting insulted by "new" players that can't prove anything. When i post 100kp or 150 kp on lfg (which is not outrageous), i don't want that new https: killproof.me nonsense. If there is a required "old"kp amount on lfg, you spam it or you don't join, simple as that. Not our fault if anet changed the kp system. And since the new release, leechers have become a huge pain. Learn your class, do training runs and don't insult those who call you out an your lies.

Yeah, make a guild man.

I mean the LFG was kind of made for public use, to quite literally embody the idea of "PUGing".

Of course the LFG isn't limited to rando PUG groups, but I feel like this high KP community is expecting way way way too much elite formation out of a public join function. At this point, instead of making a debacle over it, use the opportunity as a reason to form an elite CM Fractal guild, so you know where all the good players are all of the time. I was considering doing it myself actually. And I don't mean a small project either. I'm talking a large scale guild that asks for even solid KP proof screenshots before joins, and/or just evaluation during play before join. Something that the entire remainder of the community base can be involved in. This way we can leave LFG to PUG groups and understand what is to be expected when we are PUGing.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@36F0A0BB-7480-4A73-8575-EED6DF06FE19 said:Low population, high population, i don't care. What i do care about is getting insulted by "new" players that can't prove anything. When i post 100kp or 150 kp on lfg (which is not outrageous), i don't want that new https: killproof.me nonsense. If there is a required "old"kp amount on lfg, you spam it or you don't join, simple as that. Not our fault if anet changed the kp system. And since the new release, leechers have become a huge pain. Learn your class, do training runs and don't insult those who call you out an your lies.

Yeah, make a guild man.

I mean the LFG was kind of made for public use, to quite literally embody the idea of "PUGing".

Of course the LFG isn't limited to rando PUG groups, but I feel like this high KP community is expecting way way way too much elite formation out of a public join function. At this point, instead of making a debacle over it, use the opportunity as a reason to form an elite CM Fractal guild, so you know where all the good players are all of the time. I was considering doing it myself actually. And I don't mean a small project either. I'm talking a large scale guild that asks for even solid KP proof screenshots before joins, and/or just evaluation during play before join. Something that the entire remainder of the community base can be involved in. This way we can leave LFG to PUG groups and understand what is to be expected when we are PUGing.

Yet those top end players are literally pugging, too.After all, being in a PUG has nothing to do with one's abilities.Why should they not use a tool that's literally made for their needs?Also, despite the game's name, not everyone wants to be in a guild.

Just ignore their LFG entries and make your own, casual PUGs.The top end PUGs usually aren't hurting anyone who respects their requirements.

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@Fueki.4753 said:After all, being in a PUG has nothing to do with one's abilities.

^ Indeed. That's kind of the entire point of what I'm saying.

Also, despite the game's name, not everyone wants to be in a guild.

Yup, I feel the same. But at this point the guild UI is beginning to have growing purpose again for CM fractals. Not wanting to join a guild to make your goals more convenient is as hard-headed as hanging onto a KP system based from a dead currency that is no longer obtainable.

Look man, it was one thing a year or two ago, when KP checks were generally 20 to 50 and within reason for newcomers to be able to obtain and participate. But now with 250 checks and a new system that makes the old KP unobtainable for newcomers, hanging on to this idea of obsolete KP will eventually result in not having anyone to play with. Keywords there are will and eventually. Old players will leave, new players will rise who are just as good as the old players but who are unable to obtain obsolete KPs.

At some point you guys are going to have to figure out something different for your skill checks. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And when that reality hits hard here within the next 6 months, it will widely happen through the formation of fractal guilds. It will be the only way to maintain consistent smooth CM reset groups. In fact, it will in all likelihood actually greatly reduce wait times & frustration with inadequate PUGs. If 15 players are in a guild and all already know that everyone is CM speed run worthy, there won't be any need for LFGing at all, outside of an odd night where a slot needs to be filled out of the 3 groups formable through the guild.

I'm nearly completely convinced that in the long term, it will be the healthiest thing for the longevity of the game mode for several reasons.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I see this when I go to my EU alt to raid at reset. 300LI groups for non-CM Cairn and other ludicrous things, all sitting at 4/10 for what seems like forever. Eventually it jumps up to 5, only to drop back down to 4. Yet I make my own Cairn, Semi-XP and within 5 minutes it's full with a relatively reasonable comp. Get the clear in a few pulls and move on with the night It always makes me chuckle too, because from personal experience, these high KP groups tend to be just as disorganized and full of struggles as any other group, despite holding out for "perfection."

So often times, I don't think it's so much the fact of off-peak hours causing delays as it is players just not wanting to /deal/ with someone who requires the ridiculous for something mundane. But ultimately I don't see a practical way of changing this mindset, especially since "KP=experience and Exp = smooth clears" is a reasonable line of logic, if not always correct.

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