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Instead Of Nerfing Firebrand We Buff Other Professions


Heisen.2315

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@Nephalem.8921 said:Im hoping for more alac/quickness specs with new elite specs. Or scrapper could get it.

Next classes need to be more selffish :\ more designed similiar to gw1 stuff.On WvW a large group can already have perma alicirty and very close to perm,a quickness :\

If theres a nerf needs to be to boon overall to avoid some boons not stacking or stacking less.

This way FB can stay as it is w/o nerfs:

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@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@"Mellow.7409" said:why not buff underperforming professions instead?In case u dont understand:
  1. Anet doesnt buff
  2. Others arent underperforming... FB is overperforming
  3. PowercreepHeard that when Chronos were the support meta. And now we're in a similar situation, only the professions have changed. Somehow i don't think that Anet's method of dealing with that one helped at all.

In the end, having more choice is better, not worse.

And no, having more support choices will not result in powercreep. You don't stack support the same way you'd do with dps.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Mellow.7409" said:why not buff underperforming professions instead?In case u dont understand:
  1. Anet doesnt buff
  2. Others arent underperforming... FB is overperforming
  3. PowercreepHeard that when Chronos were the support meta. And now we're in a similar situation, only the professions have changed. Somehow i don't think that Anet's method of dealing with that one helped at all.

In the end, having more choice is better, not worse.

And no, having more support choices will not result in powercreep. You
don't
stack support the same way you'd do with dps.

Supports buff dps thereby power creep anet has to nerf fb or it will keep carrying ppl i rather see the go for you bring your own boons

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Supports buff dps thereby power creep anet has to nerf fb or it will keep carrying ppl i rather see the go for you bring your own boonsKeeping support on the level it is now, but with more alternatives, is not powercreep. Suppport as it is now is not powercreep either - it was at that level for a long time already even before PoF happened. All that changed is the class selection for support, not its overall quality. You may not want it to be so, might prefer it nerfed, but at least do not try to misrepresent things.

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+1 from me, nerfs never solve anything. Buffing everyone to be where they should be is how it should of been, the only time a nerf is needed is when one skill one shots someone from full health. (Unless running full glass canon then you get what you get.) Bring everyone up to where they should be, Firebrand/alacrigade has too much healing and bennefits? Bring the other healers to their level and give them the tools needed to compete. Or continue down the path of "nerf everything, until the game is unfun to play and clunky to use."

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I do think nerfs are an incredibly valuable tool which gets too much of a bad rep, and always just (over)buffing things to compete with overperforming things can quite well kill a game in the long run.

Old Chrono for example, doing alone what Firebrand + Renegade do now for example absolutely needed to be nerfed, as buffing every other support to be able to provide all boons, solo CC breakbars, boon strip, ad pulls, skips etc. was just not an option without massively powercreeping the game and making everything feel samey in the fact that everything can do everything at once.

Neither Firebrand nor Renegade nor current Chrono nor Druid are at that point atm though.

The issues are just that nothing else can compete in those slots due just those professions having access to vital boons like Quickness and Alacrity, or in the case of Raids 10 man Target Caps on equally necessary things like Might.

If you removed Quickness and Alacrity from the game back then, old Chrono (providing both of those insane boons at once) would have still been godlike in all the Utility it provided.If you removed Quickness and Alacrity from the game now, there wouldn't really be much reason to take any of the current supports exclusively, and things like Tempest (if given Quickness, or Quickness being taken out of the equation) is more than able to compete with FB for example.

Anet just needs to finally recognise how incredibly powerful these boons are, and that every group is used to and will want to have 100% group wide uptime of them.As long as that is the case, the only few profession which are capable of doing so will be the only meta picks for obvious reasons.

If there are still major disparities after that is addressed, that can be fixed then.Before that, I don't see any point in hacking away at the sole Quickness and Alacrity providers for being meta, since as long as they are the sole Quickness and Alacrity providers they always will be, unless maybe if they essentially destroy the professions to a point where they do nothing but those boons, in which case maybe just taking another DPS or stacking self-buffers like Reaper will be superior - which would be far from ideal.

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Heal/Support FB isn't the problem Chrono back in the days were much much more powerful they done nearly everything CC, quickness, alacrity and with SoI they could copy all boons for everyone. Fun fact why SoI was nerfed into the ground from my perspective was you could give boons into the minutes by copying multiply times with the mistlock skill reset which they finally resolved correctly with the new 100er fractal boon removal at start.(about 90% summoned will still stay)

The problem ATM is cFB can do more dmg when the fight is a bit longer even in the old fractals which results in with the new 100 cm being the only meta dps build xD

Basically you have 4 FBs and one Renegade which is arguably the worst fractal meta we ever had. True cFB is overpowered that doesn't mean that other builds have not their problems in the new fractal. Yes I know you could play condi weaver but it the most challenging rota I know(at last the SC build) while the fractal forgives nearly nothing.

First you noticed we don't have a BS here ? Because its useless because the banners are always on the wrong spot(because the boss moves away from it) also they are after the last nerf to the banners only taken with because of reasons.

For DPS build and weapons in general the idea how they mostly work is the the presumption that the enemy staying still or at last stay in range. Build with out range or extreme fast rota will have a significant drop in dps when confronted with a moving target. Condi is good here because the target still gets dmg while moving around

e.g if condi staff weaver would be still a thing it would work very well here but it got nerfed to the ground

I must also say in theory there is another way to do this is by using high mobility which are split in 2 options:A) condi thiefB) a lot of super speed with Tempest and Rev

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@Asum.4960 said:I do think nerfs are an incredibly valuable tool which gets too much of a bad rep, and always just (over)buffing things to compete with overperforming things can quite well kill a game in the long run.

Old Chrono for example, doing alone what Firebrand + Renegade do now for example absolutely needed to be nerfedYou needed two chronos for the same result, though. Not one. The amount of support slots didn't change at all. It's just more clunky now, because the first and second support slot are no longer exchangeable.

If you removed Quickness and Alacrity from the game back then, old Chrono (providing both of those insane boons at once) would have still been godlike in all the Utility it provided.Actually, no, it was being taken primarily for those two boons. Remember, that the infamous Chaos Chrono was present for only a very short time, and only near the end of chrono domination. There were times when Chrono didn't really offer much beyond Alacrity and Quickness, but was still taken, because those two boons were enough.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Asum.4960" said:I do think nerfs are an incredibly valuable tool which gets too much of a bad rep, and always just (over)buffing things to compete with overperforming things can quite well kill a game in the long run.

Old Chrono for example, doing alone what Firebrand + Renegade do now for example absolutely needed to be nerfedYou needed two chronos for the same result, though. Not one. The amount of support slots didn't change at all. It's just more clunky now, because the first and second support slot are no longer exchangeable.

Nope. What QFB + Alacrigade + BS + 2 DPS no heal Fractal runs are now used to be Chrono + BS + 3 DPS, with Chrono doing all the boons, CC, boon strip etc. that FB+Ren do now combined, in addition to portal blink skips and focus pulls/ad control.

As for both Raids and Fractals, nerfing Chrono essentially doubled the amount of viable support specs, which ofc is more "clunky" if you like to think that way.Just needing one player on one brokenly OP support Spec is ofc more simplistic to look for than if you have to have a variety of specs covering all aspects together, but imo the latter is a lot more healthy for the game.

If you removed Quickness and Alacrity from the game back then, old Chrono (providing both of those insane boons at once) would have still been godlike in all the Utility it provided.Actually, no, it was being taken primarily for those two boons. Remember, that the infamous Chaos Chrono was present for only a very short time, and only near the
end
of chrono domination. There were times when Chrono didn't really offer much beyond Alacrity and Quickness, but was still taken, because those two boons were enough.

Ofc it was primarily used for those boons, but frankly without all the ad control, boon stripping, skipping and primarily it's ability to almost single-handedly break breakbars with old double Humility, tanking (in raids) as well as earlier the group Distort, people would have been lost at the time.I think very few people realised how utterly broken Chrono used to be, even beyond the Chaos do all boons in the game thing.

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@Raizel Silverius.6430 said:

@"Mellow.7409" said:Nerfs is not fun for anyone
(glances at crowd control damage as a Warrior)
, why not buff underperforming professions instead?

PoF gave warrior full counter. Now its full tickle! Nice Elite Spec :disappointed:LOOK AT MY 6 DAMAGE FROM FULL COUNTER!

I agree all warrior spec is underperforming, like let's say in PVE no banner do people still want warrior? probably no.

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@DKRathalos.9625 said:

@"Mellow.7409" said:Nerfs is not fun for anyone
(glances at crowd control damage as a Warrior)
, why not buff underperforming professions instead?

PoF gave warrior full counter. Now its full tickle! Nice Elite Spec :disappointed:LOOK AT MY 6 DAMAGE FROM FULL COUNTER!

I agree all warrior spec is underperforming, like let's say in PVE no banner do people still want warrior? probably no.

Same with druid no spirits then ppl rather pick another class like herald

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@DKRathalos.9625 said:I agree all warrior spec is underperforming, like let's say in PVE no banner do people still want warrior? probably no.

This actually happened when they disabled banners from warriors during that banner bug in OW (I still want to think of it as a Lion's Arch Community Effort Art). Why bring a warrior that does like half of a burst of a META DPS class when you can bring another META DPS class in fractals.

For Raids, the 200 x 4 stat lost on warrior (100 x 4 for the rest) is too much (Power, Prec, Fero, Condi damage) that some static groups back then actually removed warrior from the line up and just bring another DPS to fill in the gap.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Same with druid no spirits then ppl rather pick another class like herald

Yup! Pretty sure this will happen. Heck some groups already ditched druid for Healbrand and just bring a SLB that bring frost spirit on fractals and raids. Heck some just bring a Tempest Healer / Heal Ren on some occasion while SLB bringing the spirits.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Supports buff dps thereby power creep anet has to nerf fb or it will keep carrying ppl i rather see the go for you bring your own boonsKeeping support on the level it is now, but with more alternatives, is
not
powercreep. Suppport as it is now is not powercreep either - it was at that level for a long time already even before PoF happened. All that changed is the class selection for support, not its overall quality. You may not want it to be so, might prefer it nerfed, but at least do not try to misrepresent things.

We'll that depends how much they buff support.

Also the question that should be asked is how close people want the gap to be

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@DKRathalos.9625 said:

@"Mellow.7409" said:Nerfs is not fun for anyone
(glances at crowd control damage as a Warrior)
, why not buff underperforming professions instead?

PoF gave warrior full counter. Now its full tickle! Nice Elite Spec :disappointed:LOOK AT MY 6 DAMAGE FROM FULL COUNTER!

I agree all warrior spec is underperforming, like let's say in PVE no banner do people still want warrior? probably no.

Both power and condi Berserker are pretty competitive DPS's at ~37k DPS each, and both of them only give up about ~3k DPS to provide massive group damage boosts with Banners. What warrior provides is actually pretty insane, and always has been. Few things, if any, have been as consistently meta as BS/Warrior across all of endgame/group content, from the early dungeon days to Fractals, Raids and Strikes.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Mellow.7409" said:Nerfs is not fun for anyone
(glances at crowd control damage as a Warrior)
, why not buff underperforming professions instead?

PoF gave warrior full counter. Now its full tickle! Nice Elite Spec :disappointed:LOOK AT MY 6 DAMAGE FROM FULL COUNTER!

I agree all warrior spec is underperforming, like let's say in PVE no banner do people still want warrior? probably no.

Same with druid no spirits then ppl rather pick another class like herald

Druid is the only viable solo healer with 10 man Might stacking. For 2 healer setups you might be right, but for one heal groups there is no comparable alternative. 25 Might stacks for 10 people at the cost of one Squad slot, which can also solo heal, provide a variety of utility (Spirit res, entangle ad control) and can also tank all the while is just insane value, even beyond the 10 man spirit buffs and 5 man spotter.

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Nerfs aren't fun? Oh ... so steamrolling everything with faceroll skills is?

Buffs aren't the barrel of laughs you think it would be either. I mean, this game is ALREADY at the threshold of what most people would call not challenging ... but buffs, thumbs up? I don't think so. I mean, at this point really, just give everyone the I WIN buttons and be done with it if we want to push for buffs over nerfs.

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@Obtena.7952 said:Buffs aren't the barrel of laughs you think it would be either. I mean, this game is ALREADY at the threshold of what most people would call not challengingNah, it is that way only for a relatively small minority. Surprisingly enough, a lot of players still find this game to be hard.Yes, the fact that the very same content can be both laughably easy and prohibitively hard, depending on which part of the sommunity you ask, is one of the serious problems of this game.

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My personal thoughts on whats likely going to happen based on how they view elite specs now and are slowly forcing them into specific roles.

Realistically they will have to nerf firebrand into the dirt (ok maybe not into the dirt but expect some heavy reductions would be my rough guess) with the upcoming specsReason number 1Firebrand does way too many different task all in one go. It heals good, it boons good, it tanks good, its good dps, and good utility in terms of projectile hate, stability, and hard blocks.Reason number 2To it will be darn near impossible to fit a new elite that outperforms firebrand in anyway if they dont nerf it hard in at least a few aspects because it already does every thing so good. To make something that people will want in groups or want to play over the current existing firebrand would require an unholy amount of power creep.

The proper way to do things would be to rework a lot of firebrands kit to limit it to maybe one or two things out of the followingGood tankGood dpsGood boon / utility supportGood healer

Next we need to look at the things firebrand does well and share it to some of the other classes to bring them back into the meta now that their roles have been more so forced int the support aspect.Aka Druid, Tempest, and to some extent Chrono.

There is no reason why Quick and heal brand should be the only go too required staples in support roles every time i look for some end game content in LFG and the obvious reason are already called out above it just does a lot of everything while Druid,Tempest, and Chrono have limits that don't allow them to shine as hard in all those roles.

I would like to open the LFG and see looking for healer or boon support which implies many options are available across multiple professions rather than people zeroing in on heal brand or quick brand all the darn time. Its kind of upsetting to be waiting to do content when you have 4/5 players or 9/10 players and you are waiting for the group to find a heal or quick brand and you see that 5 other groups are also looking for the same thing.

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@"ZDragon.3046" said:Firebrand does way too many different task all in one go. It heals good, it boons good, it tanks good, its good dps, and good utility in terms of projectile hate, stability, and hard blocks.No, it can't do all of those things "all in one go". Sure, it's possible for FB to do all that, but not in one build.

To it will be darn near impossible to fit a new elite that outperforms firebrand in anyway if they dont nerf it hard in at least a few aspects because it already does every thing so good. To make something that people will want in groups or want to play over the current existing firebrand would require an unholy amount of power creep.That's actually a fair point. Yes, currently there's simply no concept space left for future Guardian especs. Everything that can be done, one of the already existing specs can already do, and do well. With the possible exception of the new spec having access to Alacrity, perhaps.

Next we need to look at the things firebrand does well and share it to some of the other classes to bring them back into the meta now that their roles have been more so forced int the support aspect.Aka Druid, Tempest, and to some extent Chrono.Yes, we do need more choices for the support role, and those choices need to be more balanced compared to each other, without one of them being visibly superior.

I would like to open the LFG and see looking for healer or boon support which implies many options are available across multiple professions rather than people zeroing in on heal brand or quick brand all the darn time. Its kind of upsetting to be waiting to do content when you have 4/5 players or 9/10 players and you are waiting for the group to find a heal or quick brand and you see that 5 other groups are also looking for the same thing.Agreed. Having alternative choices for a role slot in a party/squad makes it easier and faster to get through the group forming phase to an actual content. I believe it should be desirable to make people play the game more, instead of wasting time on some organizational minigames.

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