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Make losing and winning matter


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In the very beginning there was a system that gave bonus to PvE activities based on how "your" server did. It was really not interesting (PvE players did not really care more about WvW and vice versa) - rewarding or punishing PvE players (who might not even play WvW) based on their server's WvW rating is counter-intuitive at best, discouraging at worst - so that is out.

Also having the winning/losing affect future WvW battles would only increase the bandwagon effect - players would transfer away from "weaker" servers to "stronger" ones in order to avoid the debuffs or to reap the rewards, essentially making the winner "win more" and loser "lose more". So there is not really a decent system to keep things balanced (you want to reward "winning" - which is done by e.g. slightly increasing the ticks your earn) but you also want to give the weaker side a chance to catch up (to avoid the runaway winner scenario...

In the previous relink my (and another) server were without a linked server, leading to a lot of people transferring off the servers, further weakening them. The matchups (unlinked vs unlinked vs linked server) lead to the linked server dominating all 4 maps - all objectives had the same color. This was not fun for the weak, unlinked servers (why fight when there is not chance of winning anyway) nor the dominating one (there is nothing left to conquer and almost nobody to fight... people had to earn participation by escorting dollys...)

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Make changes to reward system wich rewards your winning i think this would encourage more to play and add a incentive to win skirmishes and matchups. And add debuffs or loses for losing

They had that with the influence system before megaservers, and it wasn't very fun. If you were the top ranked world, then yes it was really nice because you had a sizable buff, but not so much if you were a lower ranked world, because you were at a major disadvantage.

Maybe something like gold, claim tickets, memories of battle, gear, potions of wvw xp/reward track, etc. The higher your world's score, the more loot you get at wvw reset. It doesn't affect other players, and it can give players an incentive to play.

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I'll just copy/paste what I said on Reddit yesterday in a thread about WvW changes and rewards.

The problem I have with that suggestion, and many people who make similar ones, is the focus on rewards.

I do think it's important for rewards to be present, but due to the nature of WvW, it is very easy to exploit gaining rewards in a way that is harmful to others. Similar to how you have people who graveyard in PvE and/or people who brain AFK during meta/champ/legendary/etc. fights where DPS is more important, increasing rewards too much could also attract these players that will exert only minimal effort. We already have this problem even with rewards as low as they are.

It is very possible to make a decent amount of gold in WvW but you have to be willing to convert it through materials. Heavy Loot Bags give quite a lot of them.

If rewards are ever to be increased I think it's important that ANet focuses on making those rewards require a certain degree of effort. I like the suggestion that taking objectives that are of a higher upgrade tier offer better rewards for example because that incentivizes going for those structures rather than ktraining paper ones all the time.

Something as simple as a stacking short duration WXP/Magic Find buff for killing players while alone (calculated based on players present within X vicinity) would also be a nice small bonus for roamers engaging in combat.//The rewards for winning would have to be minimal or we would have server stacking worse than we do now. The problem with a lot of these things is that a lot of players want to contribute as little effort as possible for the highest reward. I don't think it's possible to avoid this completely but the impact can definitely be reduced. Fortunately, because rewards for winning are so minimal, server stacking isn't as bad as it was some years ago because people don't care about winning as much as they used to. But we do still have lots of guilds that transfer en masse for the easiest victories despite this.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@enkidu.5937 said:something like:

rewards = (PPT conquered + PPT defended + PPK earned) / (ppl online in your team) x (ppl online in enemy teams)

Good luck getting rewards when you have to divide by 0.

That’s infinite rewards B)

But (ppl online in enemy teams) should be left of / anyway (more rewards, if you get your points vs more enemies). If (ppl online in your team) Is 0 then there is no need to compute a reward for no one.

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Rewards for WvW playtime and activity are very lacking compared to the other gamemodes but I think you have to be careful with rewards since it could just end up becoming a situation where three teams just go around the map capping each others things.Defending I agree should be more important but first they need to buff defensive gameplay.

! Just some Ideas but they could:! Make outnumbered mean something more than additional pips.! Dragon Banners need to only work in the location they came from, making them a defensive tactic.! Airstrike, chilling fog, EWP, Invulnerable all need to only be able to be pulled when a keep/tower is under attack to prevent trolls.! Rework the downstate revive so a blob cant insta ress.! Possibly Buff AC, Cannon and Ballista damage

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has been discussed several times. if u want make winning matter (not skirmishes tho, that's too small and pointless - this would be really encouraging the burning out which Anet argumented the cutting of tournaments), then there should be rewards in terms of mattering (good) loot and/or gold weeky

currently weekly rewards are what? 1 warlords armor chest, some claim tickets, some mystic coins, 3-4 shards (grandm. mark shards)

the losing-ppt server mustn't get stat debuffs for losing skirmishes, that'd be just and plainly dumb. often losing ppt is just due to the numerical imbalance, regardless how hard u wipe them in battles. @Laila Lightness.8742

there is yet the issue of borderland bloodlust, which is combined with the non working numerical balance one big problem in Wvw. gives the number advantage additionally more stats, across all maps. just bullcrap.

overall, in a reform, player kills should count WAY more. currently they have barely any effect. they could maybe just let playerkillcount run parallel to ppt count, and have a 1st 2nd 3rd and resulting point there as well.

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" the stacking thing isn't that bad, i doubt it would become way more than we have now... pptstacking is yet big, same with guilds stacking - like 5 servers contain most of the better guilds.about ppt, ofc there is the problem that also scamming players who want to be carried bandwagoned to it, but this is yet the case, despite no real use of it.

that is bc the system needs a fix anyways, then the rewards can be fixed.

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Another wave of these types of threads?

There already is something that matters for winning and losing, there is a ladder on which to compete.

What is broken is what defines who wins or loses and that is why no one cares about the ladder.

It is the same reason that makes any form of item-based rewards pointless until what is broken gets fixed.

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thats really debateable tho. if we're beeing honest, beeing t1 is worthless in the end. that one reason why nobody cares about the tiers, other than for manipulation matchups. casuals hop to get easy farms as pugs on onto good fighting base servers, no matter which tier.

so again, not worth wasting time thinking about updating rewards really, as long as the matchmaking system is this stale and easy to manipulate.

and no @SweetPotato.7456 that makes questionable sense only.neither if u want to give more players on a group better nor if u want to give them worse rewards would really change much currently.

while it is maybe a okayish thought to improve rewards for big groups, since it forces people to stop doing single crap actions constantly.

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Won't work for a very simple reason.Put debuffs on those that lost, and you just succesfully chased off a large proportion of the WvW player base.You simply would put the final nail into WvW.

Debuff my rewards? Ok am out. Back to PvE permanently, I got enough GoB to last quite a while anyways.

How to make WvW interesting again?

Give us ACTUAL rewards that are usefull and valuable. It is insane that you go back to PvE to "make gold" because WvW is such a borked and uninteresting reward system that you cannot even get half the rewards you get, compared to some low effort farming runs in PvE.

Personally I woulda: Revamp the Participation system. (Running a Dolyak gets you quicker to t6 than actual fighting enemies, specially on longer fights you easely bleed participation - wrong way to go about it)b: Revamp the Reward Tracks. Some of the later ones give more trash than anything valuable - with the drizzlewood coast one being a very lazy copy/paste from dragonhall. Shamefully low effort that I cannot understand Anet doesn't feel ashamed about.c: Give better loot on capture (here is your winning reward most easely implemented) Scale reward with the type and tier of the objective captured.d: remove silly PvE style content like the vets and the "friendship" thing.

Just my 2 cents. You can agree or disagree, I don't have all the answers obviously, but these are the most obvious things that come to my mind.

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Better access to Ascended gear (similar to Fractals) and better liquid gold rewards is all you need. WvW is already the best place to get many items like stat-selectable Exotic gear, Transmutation Charges, and rewards too difficult to farm in PvE.

One example I can think of was the /rockout emote, which was awful to get in PvE, but reasonable in WvW.

The biggest problem is that there's just no liquid profit, so as a game mode it can't sustain players, even for regular, everyday costs that are barely covered by dailies, and that's assuming you actually manage to do all of them. Then its nothing compared to the 25-30g/hour you can make in PvE, of course no one's asking for it to be so high but at least 5g/hour liquid profit would be reasonable.

The issue here is the devs are afraid to fully separate WvW from PvE. In most Realm Vs Realm (RvR, or what other games call WvW), games I've played, the game mode is entirely self-sustaining with even having cities in their warzones. Max level players can enter the game mode entirely as the end-game and never return to the PvE environment they levelled up in, that's far from the case in GW2.

You can't even log out of WvW without being sent back to PvE without Armistice Bastion pass. And there's no guild hall in the Mists, and many other hangups that keep it from being a self-sustaining game mode, and thats why the population is low.

If the devs don't want the game mode to die steps must be taken to make it more self-sustaining, including liquid profit.

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@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:thats really debateable tho. if we're beeing honest, beeing t1 is worthless in the end. that one reason why nobody cares about the tiers, other than for manipulation matchups. casuals hop to get easy farms as pugs on onto good fighting base servers, no matter which tier.

so again, not worth wasting time thinking about updating rewards really, as long as the matchmaking system is this stale and easy to manipulate.

and no @SweetPotato.7456 that makes questionable sense only.neither if u want to give more players on a group better nor if u want to give them worse rewards would really change much currently.

while it is maybe a okayish thought to improve rewards for big groups, since it forces people to stop doing single kitten actions constantly.

what questionable sense? i do not understand what you are saying /replying/commenting on what i said. please explain

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@Tuna Bandit.3786 said:Give us ACTUAL rewards that are usefull and valuable.

Just to point out the problem with this, since it depends entirely upon what each individual consider to be useful and valuable. Personally I can't think of a single thing in the game I'd find to be either atm, neither in wvw, pvp nor pve.

And if rewards is the answer, then the game just stops whenever people have had enough rewards to lose interest in it.

WvW always worked because of the gameplay, the players that stuck around and played for long periods of time never stuck with it for the rewards. So focusing on the rewards will only give short term players, and won't actually solve the long term issues.

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@"lare.5129" said:we already have +1, and +2 pips on each tick for winner. It more valuable than any strange debuff, or something else.

Yeah. The varied tick rate is already quite noticeable, especially if you're a sub-500-rank player.

(And, because it's scoped to a "skirmish" period, you aren't overly penalized for other servers out-PPTing you while you sleep.)

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