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Instead Of Nerfing Firebrand We Buff Other Professions


Heisen.2315

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:Firebrand does way too many different task all in one go. It heals good, it boons good, it tanks good, its good dps, and good utility in terms of projectile hate, stability, and hard blocks.No, it can't do all of those things "all in one go". Sure, it's possible for FB to do all that, but
not
in one build.

To it will be darn near impossible to fit a new elite that outperforms firebrand in anyway if they dont nerf it hard in at least a few aspects because it already does every thing so good. To make something that people will want in groups or want to play over the current existing firebrand would require an unholy amount of power creep.That's actually a fair point. Yes, currently there's simply no concept space left for future Guardian especs. Everything that can be done, one of the already existing specs can already do, and do well. With the possible exception of the new spec having access to Alacrity, perhaps.

I honestly don't get that argument, never have.Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing? Why did condi Reaper needed to be nerfed "to make room" for Scourge? Why can't power DPS Spellbreaker be good, as well as power DPS Berserker, etc.? Just because they operate on the same profession framework? What's wrong with more variety?I for example quite enjoyed power Spellbreaker when it was still good, and really don't enjoy Power Berserker at all. Why does it matter that they share the same core profession? Why can there ever be only one viable spec for some things? Isn't that exactly the issue, too little variety?

Then, why on the other hand is Elementalist completely fine with having both Tempest and Weaver having 38k+ both condi and power DPS specs?

It seems so arbitrary what the community (and Anet) decides what profession can or can't have multiple specs filling a certain role in different ways, appealing to different playstyles and players.

Ofc Guardian can have another condi DPS or support spec in addition to Firebrand (or power DPS in addition to DH), just doing things differently, appealing to a different theme/fantasy and/or playstyle.Ofc Necro can have another condi spec playing completely differently than Scourge with the Shades, without having to destroy Scourge, or a power DPS that plays completely different to Reaper and it's Shroud, without Reaper having to go into the trash can.Ofc Ranger can have another support or DPS spec in addition to Druid or Soulbeast, without having to ruin those, etc.

What exactly is the issue with that?Why does the game need to be so dumbed-down that certain Professions are only allowed one viable clearly telegraphed role per spec which has to be unique in the profession? Give people choices.

It's not like condi FB with it's ~37k DPS, HFB with the support it provides or pDH with it's 35k DPS are outragously overpowered so that no new Spec with a different playstyle could compete with them on that profession, in that role.

@"ZDragon.3046" said:I would like to open the LFG and see looking for healer or boon support which implies many options are available across multiple professions rather than people zeroing in on heal brand or quick brand all the darn time. Its kind of upsetting to be waiting to do content when you have 4/5 players or 9/10 players and you are waiting for the group to find a heal or quick brand and you see that 5 other groups are also looking for the same thing.

Here's the thing, as said again and again, it doesn't matter how much you destroy Druid as a healer, as long as it's the only 10 man healer and Might generator + unique 10 man damage buffs, it will always stay the only meta solo Raid healer - unless something is buffed to have that special capability as well.

It doesn't matter how much you destroy Firebrand as support, as long as it's the only Quickness provider that slots into Renegade, it will always stay the only meta Fractal support - unless something is buffed to have that capability as well.

It's either that, or 10 man Target Caps and Quickness are removed from the game altogether.

It's not like Tempest pales in comparison to Firebrand in terms of healing and boon support (except for crucially Quickness) and isn't more than capable of clearing all endgame content in that capacity, it just doesn't have Quickness, for which you would then still need a Quickbrand or Chrono. So if you do want a heal, why not always take the whole package in HFB and a full DPS in the other slot instead?People already run no heal runs with Quickbrand. All you achieve by nerfing support Firebrand into the ground is push more people into Quickbrand.If you destroy Quickbrand as well, then people just use boon Chrono again, and if you destroy that too, stack power Chronos or Reaper's providing Quickness for themselves.You aren't increasing variety with such nerfs but quite the opposite, because that's not the issue here.

People run Firebrand not because it's OP and needs nerfs, but because it's the best and kind of only source of group Quickness atm, and you got to have Quickness.If you gave support Tempest the ability to provide group Quickness, it would be viable over night for that 5 man support slot.If you removed Quickness from Firebrand, it wouldn't be looked at anymore and discarded like all the other non Quickness supports.

What the game needs is more Quickness (and Alacrity) options, and yes, that means "buffing" other professions by giving them that capability.Just because you destroy Healbrand doesn't suddenly mean people won't want Quickness anymore and suddenly run all the non-Quickness supports like Tempest, Scourge, Scrapper etc.

TL:DRIf there is only one spec for a role that everybody wants, everybody taking it doesn't mean it's OP, nor will nerfing it suddenly make other specs which don't fit into that role viable for that role. You need to give other specs the ability to fill that role.If there is still discrepancy then, then you can look at buff's and nerfs.

The issue with support variety is not Firebrand itself, it's Quickness availability. And the same goes for Renegade and Alacrity (which fsr though seems to coast by completely under the radar as only viable spec for that role, while imo actually being a bigger outlier).

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@"Asum.4960" said:I honestly don't get that argument, never have.Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?It can, but, no matter how you end up balancing stuff, one of those options will end up being better.

It's okay to have some overlap, but having two especs that are doing exactly the same things, or one espec that is doing only a part of what another espec is already doing (and doing well) is just wasting the espec potential. You will only end up with duplicating the issue of the core classes, where they aren't used for anything because anything they can do, one of their especs can do better.

Why did condi Reaper needed to be nerfed "to make room" for Scourge?That was indeed unnecessary, considering that Scourge is apparently not considered to be a cDPS espec, but a support one. And, because Reaper as power dps started to become useful only very recently, but when that condi nerf happened, it was still very, very bad. Still, some division between especs is not a bad thing.

Then, why on the other hand is Elementalist completely fine with having both Tempest and Weaver having 38k+ both condi and power DPS specs?That's again, only a recent thing, and a sideeffect of massive Weaver nerfs, and then devs trying to fix them somehow. Remember, that for a long time, after Weaver was introduced, Tempest's usefulness as a dps spec went down hard, and for a time it got reduced to a secondary heal role only.It's also a sideffect of dps being the primary function of elementalist as a whole, something that cannot be easily separated from it (which is, btw, a limitation of espec approach).

Here's the thing, as said again and again, it doesn't matter how much you destroy Druid as a healer, as long as it's the only 10 man healer and Might generator + unique 10 man damage buffs, it will always stay the only meta solo Raid healer - unless something is buffed to have that special capability as well.

It doesn't matter how much you destroy Firebrand as support, as long as it's the only Quickness provider that slots into Renegade, it will always stay the only meta Fractal support - unless something is buffed to have that capability as well.

It's either that, or 10 man Target Caps and Quickness are removed from the game altogether.

It's not like Tempest pales in comparison to Firebrand in terms of healing and boon support (except for crucially Quickness) and isn't more than capable of clearing all endgame content in that capacity, it just doesn't have Quickness, for which you would then still need a Quickbrand or Chrono. So if you do want a heal, why not always take the whole package in HFB and a full DPS in the other slot instead?People already run no heal runs with Quickbrand. All you achieve by nerfing support Firebrand into the ground is push more people into Quickbrand.If you destroy Quickbrand as well, then people just use boon Chrono again, and if you destroy that too, stack power Chronos or Reaper's providing Quickness for themselves.You aren't increasing variety with such nerfs but quite the opposite, because that's not the issue here.Yes. We need more valid options for group slots. Not less. And the more those options are easily exchangeable, the better.

If there is only one spec for a role that everybody wants, everybody taking it doesn't mean it's OP, nor will nerfing it suddenly make other specs which don't fit into that role viable for that role. You need to give other specs the ability to fill that role.That's exactly what some of us were saying when everyone was calling for Chrono nerfs. In the end, Chrono got indeed nerfed, but got only replaced after FB/Alaren pair got buffed to the point of being able to pick up the slack. And now, predictably, people are calling for FB nerfs, showing that the community as a whole doesn't learn all that well with past mistakes.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:That's exactly what some of us were saying when everyone was calling for Chrono nerfs. In the end, Chrono got indeed nerfed, but got only replaced after FB/Alaren pair got buffed to the point of being able to pick up the slack. And now, predictably, people are calling for FB nerfs, showing that the community as a whole doesn't learn all that well with past mistakes.

It's a very different situation though. Chrono was indeed broken, being able to do all boons, all CC, all boon strip, all tanking, all skips, all ad control etc. in one spec all at once, which meant nothing could ever compete with Chrono unless it was nerfed, or the game would have to be insanely powercrept with every support just doing literally everything as well.

Neither Firebrand nor Renegade are in that same position now, and plenty other specs could fairly easily compete, if it just wasn't for the lack of Quickness/Alacrity availability.

Give support Tempest Quickness and it can compete quite easily with support FB, give support Scourge Alacrity and it can compete with Renegade (ish, Renegade is actually a pretty crazy kit in terms of high damage, Alacrity, massive CC, boon strip/stab/projectile defense as well as perma group Prot and unique damage increasing buffs like Assassins Presence and Soulcleave, which acts as sustain tool on top of that, and imo actually the more powerful half of the Firebrigade).

Neither of them on their own is as irreplaceably godlike as old Chrono used to be though.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Asum.4960 said:I honestly don't get that argument, never have.Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?It can, but, no matter how you end up balancing stuff, one of those options
will
end up being better.

It's okay to have some overlap, but having two especs that are doing exactly the same things, or one espec that is doing only a part of what another espec is already doing (and doing well) is just wasting the espec potential. You will only end up with duplicating the issue of the core classes, where they aren't used for anything because anything they can do, one of their especs can do better.

Ofc one will always be the best at something, but just like now people accept various different DPS Professions even though one is technically the best, so it too would be completely fine to have multiple same viable roles within one Profession, as long as they are reasonably close.

If for example the previously mentioned Power Spellbreaker still did 36k DPS compared to Berserkers 37k DPS, I would still play SPB over Berserker without question simply bc I like the gameplay/rotation a lot more. As long as the difference is not detrimental, like SPB after the unnecessary nerfs a while ago currently being 7k DPS behind Berserker, I don't see any issue with multiple Especs on a profession being able to fill the same role in different ways.

So too is there is plenty room on Guard for new specs, without the need to obliterate either DH or FB.

Unless the designers are creatively bankrupt, there are plenty ways of drastically differentiating Elite specs gameplay wise, even if they fill the same role in a group.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

Druid can heal enough to keep a 10 man Squad alive on it's own, while generating Might for 10 people and giving out unique buffs (while also being able to tank).That's a value package nothing else can compete with.Yes, other classes can give might too, but either only 5 man and/or without unique buffs, which means you need double the support slots for likely lower effect.The healing itself you actually need with half decent player's is minimal, and pretty much all healers in GW2 massively overheal.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

Sure it can heal 10..

Nope and its not very good at healing its heals are low its only taken for 10might+ spirits it needs nerf on spirits and might so other can replace it and meta can change

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

Sure it can heal 10..

Nope and its not very good at healing its heals are low its only taken for 10might+ spirits it needs nerf on spirits and might so other can replace it and meta can change

I know how druid works, but I also know how sub groups and healing works which you are not understanding now.

Healing targets your subgroup first, regardless of hp and flows over when there are less damaged people (so not full hp) than the target cap for the heal ability. So you can indeed heal 10 ppl as a druid in a good squad that doesn't eat every tick of damage.

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I do believe in rather bringing other profession up to where a desired profession is at. I do also believe that Firebrand is a tad to strong in PvE due to its unbelievable utility (nerfs to FB have already made it less powerful in Spvp and the reason it remains in WvW is stability mostly).

Simple solution here: make all Firebrand tomes share a cool down, re-balance accordingly. This would limited access to tomes, which grant a total of 15 skills versus 3 on other guardian specializations. Alternatively using a tome could put other tomes on short cool down if a complete cd share is to penalizing.Pros:

  • this provides a nice "trade-off" versus other guardian specs since now the Firebrand loses access to his 3 virtues at the same time
  • the elite retains some of its flexibility but does not have access to all of the skills provided via tomes.
  • there are far worse "changes" which could make the elite absolutely useless

Cons:

  • Firebrand tomes now compete with each other making especially tome 2 versus 3 a difficult choice (considering tome 1 is more offensive while the other 2 are utility/support oriented)
  • some re-balancing would need to be done, especially to some of the areas which were nerfed.

The main issue with Firebrand in PvE is the high flexibility it has as a spec and the vast amount of access to utility going along with that. Instead of "nerfing" things like quickness, aegis, etc. A better approach would to reduce a Firebrands access to multiple unspecced and always available utility skills. Make the class have to specialize in one area, but at the same time also allow it to perform that specialized role properly.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:That's exactly what some of us were saying when everyone was calling for Chrono nerfs. In the end, Chrono got indeed nerfed, but got only replaced after FB/Alaren pair got buffed to the point of being able to pick up the slack. And now, predictably, people are calling for FB nerfs, showing that the community as a whole doesn't learn all that well with past mistakes.

It's a very different situation though. Chrono was indeed broken, being able to do all boons, all CC, all boon strip, all tanking, all skips, all ad control etc. in one spec all at once, which meant nothing could ever compete with Chrono unless it was nerfed, or the game would have to be insanely powercrept with every support just doing literally everything as well.The voices i mentioned started long
before
infamous Chaos Chrono build. In fact, the buffs to chrono then were just an unintentional consequence of constant attempts to nerf it. And even chaos chrono couldn't do
all
of those things at the same time (not to mention you needed
two
of them for good boon coverage, because they depended on outside Alacrity to function, and because their boon generation was heavily reduced for 5-man parties when some of their skills were expanded to work on 10-man squads).

Neither Firebrand nor Renegade are in that same position now, and plenty other specs could fairly easily compete, if it just wasn't for the lack of Quickness/Alacrity availability.Originally, for Chrono it was
also
all about Quickness and Alacrity. Those two boons were always the key, and still are.

Give support Tempest Quickness and it can compete quite easily with support FB, give support Scourge Alacrity and it can compete with Renegade (ish, Renegade is actually a pretty crazy kit in terms of high damage, Alacrity, massive CC, boon strip/stab/projectile defense as well as perma group Prot and unique damage increasing buffs like Assassins Presence and Soulcleave, which acts as sustain tool on top of that, and imo actually the more powerful half of the Firebrigade).

Neither of them on their own is as irreplaceably godlike as old Chrono used to be though.That's only because Chrono still exists. On the other hand, even though you do now have a choice, it's not much of a choice in the end.

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Firebrands needs to be nerfed. Its a poor idea to buff other especs as that leads to even more rampant powercreep, such as what Anet have been trying to rein in with espec tradeoffs.Especs was supposed to be alternative ways of playing your class, instead of being wildly overpowered through the roof.

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@Asum.4960 said:Why can't power DPS Spellbreaker be good, as well as power DPS Berserker, etc.? Just because they operate on the same profession framework? What's wrong with more variety?I for example quite enjoyed power Spellbreaker when it was still good, and really don't enjoy Power Berserker at all. Why does it matter that they share the same core profession? Why can there ever be only one viable spec for some things? Isn't that exactly the issue, too little variety?

As far as I can tell there are two reasons for this: First, the berserker elite specialization gives core warrior more of the same tools which it already had, whereas spellbreaker adds new options to the warrior's kit. Second, spellbreaker inherently has better defensive than the berserker. Meaning that spellbreaker builds will outdo berserker builds defensively as well as in regards to flexibility/ utility. The way the developers made up for that was giving berserker superior offensive power.

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@"LucianDK.8615" said:Its a poor idea to buff other especs as that leads to even more rampant powercreep, such as what Anet have been trying to rein in with espec tradeoffs."Rampant powercreep" is something that can happen to dps builds, but can't really happen to boon support, unless you introduce some completely new (and desirable) boons or make them stronger. Once you get to 100% upkeep (which is something we've achieved long before PoF), it's literally impossible to have a powercreep from this point up, as adding more doesn't matter at this point. So, it's better to not use that specific argument when discussing support builds.

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@Asum.4960 said:So too is there is plenty room on Guard for new specs, without the need to obliterate either DH or FB.Generally dont agree here firebrand is too good at too many roles the only way any people would play any role for the next elite spec of gaurdian is if its simply better from a numbers prespective aka power creep which is bad for 2 reasons1 its gross to see that kind of power creep added to the game2 it would just invalidate Firebrand anyways for those roles its power crept in.

It would overall be better to cut firebrand back and then make the new elite spec perform decent in line rather than over boosting it just so people feel the need to use it. Either way you end up with some role of firebrands getting put into the trashcan. I would prefer anet do proper balancing than invalidating through power creep.

Unless the designers are creatively bankrupt, there are plenty ways of drastically differentiating Elite specs gameplay wise, even if they fill the same role in a group.Generally not anets goal going forward with elite specs to have them do the same roles over and over even if they can perform the same roles there should be a massive difference in how well they can perform them. Yes i can take blood magic and build healing power on reaper but is it going to be as effective as it is on scourge? No its not. Does this mean reaper should be buffed because scourge heals better no it does not. If reaper was performing better as a support healer than scourge i would argue that it needed a nerf so that scourge could fill that role as thats technically the role it was marketed and built for.

So if anything be happy that who ever does guardian balance is generous and usually provides compensation for most things they take in some way or another. I think if we see firebrand nerfs we will also see buffs in the areas they want to keep it dedicated too all im saying is that there shouldn't be too many roles that it can fill so well.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

Druid can heal enough to keep a 10 man Squad alive on it's own, while generating Might for 10 people and giving out unique buffs (while also being able to tank).That's a value package nothing else can compete with.Yes, other classes can give might too, but either only 5 man and/or without unique buffs, which means you need double the support slots for likely lower effect.The healing itself you actually need with half decent player's is minimal, and pretty much all healers in GW2 massively overheal.

Lol no... Druid cannot do that it provides might and even thats not the best value package in a lot of cases.I think the only time i see druid these days is in boneskinner strike missions. Generally heal brand is the go to healer for most content like raids, fractals, and most of the other strikes. EVEN in strikes scourge is more value than druids due to its ability to power res, barrier, and it even can provide might to some extent. I generally dont see alot of druids these days unless its a friend of a friend who just wants to play druid. The go to staple for pugs is basically locked into firebrand for healing a utility + boons.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Asum.4960 said:So too is there is plenty room on Guard for new specs, without the need to obliterate either DH or FB.Generally dont agree here firebrand is too good at too many roles the only way any people would play any role for the next elite spec of gaurdian is if its simply better from a numbers prespective aka power creep which is bad for 2 reasons1 its gross to see that kind of power creep added to the game2 it would just invalidate Firebrand anyways for those roles its power crept in.

It would overall be better to cut firebrand back and then make the new elite spec perform decent in line rather than over boosting it just so people feel the need to use it. Either way you end up with some role of firebrands getting put into the trashcan. I would prefer anet do proper balancing than invalidating through power creep.

Unless the designers are creatively bankrupt, there are plenty ways of drastically differentiating Elite specs gameplay wise, even if they fill the same role in a group.Generally not anets goal going forward with elite specs to have them do the same roles over and over even if they can perform the same roles there should be a massive difference in how well they can perform them. Yes i can take blood magic and build healing power on reaper but is it going to be as effective as it is on scourge? No its not. Does this mean reaper should be buffed because scourge heals better no it does not. If reaper was performing better as a support healer than scourge i would argue that it needed a nerf so that scourge could fill that role as thats technically the role it was marketed and built for.

So if anything be happy that who ever does guardian balance is generous and usually provides compensation for most things they take in some way or another. I think if we see firebrand nerfs we will also see buffs in the areas they want to keep it dedicated too all im saying is that there shouldn't be too many roles that it can fill so well.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

Druid can heal enough to keep a 10 man Squad alive on it's own, while generating Might for 10 people and giving out unique buffs (while also being able to tank).That's a value package nothing else can compete with.Yes, other classes can give might too, but either only 5 man and/or without unique buffs, which means you need double the support slots for likely lower effect.The healing itself you actually need with half decent player's is minimal, and pretty much all healers in GW2 massively overheal.

Lol no... Druid cannot do that it provides might and even thats not the best value package in a lot of cases.I think the only time i see druid these days is in boneskinner strike missions. Generally heal brand is the go to healer for most content like raids, fractals, and most of the other strikes. EVEN in strikes scourge is more value than druids due to its ability to power res, barrier, and it even can provide might to some extent. I generally dont see alot of druids these days unless its a friend of a friend who just wants to play druid. The go to staple for pugs is basically locked into firebrand for healing a utility + boons.

Heal firebrand is not meta in any raid, while druid is meta in most raids.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:Firebrand does way too many different task all in one go. It heals good, it boons good, it tanks good, its good dps, and good utility in terms of projectile hate, stability, and hard blocks.No, it can't do all of those things "all in one go". Sure, it's possible for FB to do all that, but
not
in one build.

To it will be darn near impossible to fit a new elite that outperforms firebrand in anyway if they dont nerf it hard in at least a few aspects because it already does every thing so good. To make something that people will want in groups or want to play over the current existing firebrand would require an unholy amount of power creep.That's actually a fair point. Yes, currently there's simply no concept space left for future Guardian especs. Everything that can be done, one of the already existing specs can already do, and do well. With the possible exception of the new spec having access to Alacrity, perhaps.

I honestly don't get that argument, never have.Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

See, it's going to take some time but ... eventually you and everyone else will understand that the consequence of having lots of builds to be successful with is ... a wide range in performance between all the builds available. This game isn't designed like others.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"LucianDK.8615" said:Its a poor idea to buff other especs as that leads to even more rampant powercreep, such as what Anet have been trying to rein in with espec tradeoffs."Rampant powercreep" is something that can happen to dps builds, but can't really happen to boon support, unless you introduce some completely new (and desirable) boons or make them stronger. Once you get to 100% upkeep (which is something we've achieved long before PoF), it's literally impossible to have a powercreep from this point up, as adding more doesn't matter at this point. So, it's better to not use that specific argument when discussing support builds.

It could by giving them longer base boon duration's which means less concentration is required allowing them to invest in other stats which could put them closer to over performing in multiple roles or giving them bigger boon tables that include boons from the previous elite spec which invalidates the previous elite spec because why wouldnt you take the support that gives more than the last. You can always powercreep something dont be tricked into thinking that you cannot.Im sorry to say your statement is 100% false my friend.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:Lol no... Druid cannot do that it provides might and even thats not the best value package in a lot of cases.I think the only time i see druid these days is in boneskinner strike missions. Generally heal brand is the go to healer for most content like raids, fractals, and most of the other strikes. EVEN in strikes scourge is more value than druids due to its ability to power res, barrier, and it even can provide might to some extent. I generally dont see alot of druids these days unless its a friend of a friend who just wants to play druid. The go to staple for pugs is basically locked into firebrand for healing a utility + boons.

Druid is meta on almost every raidboss. Hfb isnt on any of them. Hfb isnt meta in fractals either. How do you even buff might to 10 targets with a hfb. One healer is perfectly fine most of the time. Pugs are always way behind meta. Some are still stacking in dungeon corners to this day.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:That's exactly what some of us were saying when everyone was calling for Chrono nerfs. In the end, Chrono got indeed nerfed, but got only replaced after FB/Alaren pair got buffed to the point of being able to pick up the slack. And now, predictably, people are calling for FB nerfs, showing that the community as a whole doesn't learn all that well with past mistakes.

It's a very different situation though. Chrono was indeed broken, being able to do all boons, all CC, all boon strip, all tanking, all skips, all ad control etc. in one spec all at once, which meant nothing could ever compete with Chrono unless it was nerfed, or the game would have to be insanely powercrept with every support just doing literally everything as well.The voices i mentioned started long
before
infamous Chaos Chrono build.

Chrono was a problem way before the late Chaos Chrono, and Chrono + Druid where the only viable support choices across all of endgame/coordinated group content for ~4 years, way overshadowing Firebrand and Renegade then and now.The game was getting incredibly stale and something needed to change.

At least, thanks to the Chrono nerfs, now all 4 are viable across all endgame, with FB + Ren shining in Fractals and all of them having a place in in Raids.That's not perfect ofc, but at least better.Now we are in a different situation though, and unlike Chrono, which actively kept other Quickness and Alacrity providers (FB and Ren) completely irrelevant bc it was so insanely good and the whole package alone, right now there aren't any other Specs that can fill the roles of Quickness or Alacrity providers that are being kept down by either Chrono, Firebrand or Renegade.No other options exist. Nerfing either of those specs won't change that.

@Katary.7096 said:

@Asum.4960 said:Why can't power DPS Spellbreaker be good, as well as power DPS Berserker, etc.? Just because they operate on the same profession framework? What's wrong with more variety?I for example quite enjoyed power Spellbreaker when it was still good, and really don't enjoy Power Berserker at all. Why does it matter that they share the same core profession? Why can there ever be only one viable spec for some things? Isn't that exactly the issue, too little variety?

As far as I can tell there are two reasons for this: First, the berserker elite specialization gives core warrior more of the same tools which it already had, whereas spellbreaker adds new options to the warrior's kit. Second, spellbreaker inherently has better defensive than the berserker. Meaning that spellbreaker builds will outdo berserker builds defensively as well as in regards to flexibility/ utility. The way the developers made up for that was giving berserker superior offensive power.

And that sounds good on paper, sure, but ingame it just means power Spellbreaker (which used to be a viable ~37k DPS) just got deleted from PvE endgame and now people just need to play something else if they want to contribute, and if they enjoyed how power Spellbreaker DPS played, they are just screwed, as Berserker plays quite differently.Meanwhile SPB would be completely fine on ~35k DPS, giving people more viable options in how to enjoy the game.

Not a fan of this attitude that anything that has some baked in defensive mechanic, no matter how minor it might be in practice, can never be relevant in PvE endgame, with everybody just wanting pure glasscannon DPS specs entirely reliant on supports carrying them.Having things like Full Counter, Barrier or (thankfully that attitude is slowly changing on Anet's part it seems) Shroud is not worth giving up 5-8k DPS. It never will be. Keeping a spec purposefully behind by that much bc it has some defense essentially just means that it doesn't exist for organised PvE.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Asum.4960 said:So too is there is plenty room on Guard for new specs, without the need to obliterate either DH or FB.Generally dont agree here firebrand is too good at too many roles the only way any people would play any role for the next elite spec of gaurdian is if its simply better from a numbers prespective aka power creep which is bad for 2 reasons1 its gross to see that kind of power creep added to the game2 it would just invalidate Firebrand anyways for those roles its power crept in.

It would overall be better to cut firebrand back and then make the new elite spec perform decent in line rather than over boosting it just so people feel the need to use it. Either way you end up with some role of firebrands getting put into the trashcan. I would prefer anet do proper balancing than invalidating through power creep.

What powercreep though? You keep using it as buzzword, but where is the actual creep there?Let's say Guardian gets another Condi DPS spec that clocks in around 38k DPS, while Firebrand stays at 36-37k - but they both play differently, with the new spec not having access to the supporty Tomes and as frequent Aegis, doing something else instead.

What exactly got powercrept? There are other professions that provide 38k+ DPS, like Renegade, Tempest, Weaver, Mirage, Chrono, Soulbeast, Holosmith, etc.

Just because condi Renegade does more DPS than condi Firebrand doesn't mean nobody plays Firebrand, neither does a new spec of the same Profession need to invalidate previous specs. They can all exist at the same time, offering different themes and playstyles, and non of it has to powercreep or completely invalidate what came before.

Otherwise you get a bland, one-dimensional game with very limited obvious choices that you are railroaded into.Invalidating old fun and balanced options just to sell some new shiny which essentially replaces it, which players might or might not enjoy over the old one, is imo an awful way to do Elite Specs. We have too few options as it is.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

Druid can heal enough to keep a 10 man Squad alive on it's own, while generating Might for 10 people and giving out unique buffs (while also being able to tank).That's a value package nothing else can compete with.Yes, other classes can give might too, but either only 5 man and/or without unique buffs, which means you need double the support slots for likely lower effect.The healing itself you actually need with half decent player's is minimal, and pretty much all healers in GW2 massively overheal.

Lol no... Druid cannot do that it provides might and even thats not the best value package in a lot of cases.I think the only time i see druid these days is in boneskinner strike missions. Generally heal brand is the go to healer for most content like raids, fractals, and most of the other strikes. EVEN in strikes scourge is more value than druids due to its ability to power res, barrier, and it even can provide might to some extent. I generally dont see alot of druids these days unless its a friend of a friend who just wants to play druid. The go to staple for pugs is basically locked into firebrand for healing a utility + boons.

Good to know you just don't know what you are talking about then, because Druid is and literally always has been since the inception of Raids, for 5 years now uninterrupted been the Meta Main/Solo heal for 10 man content (and for 3-4 years of that time, along with Chrono also being the only pick for 5 man content with Fractals).It absolutely can solo heal and buff a Raid squad.

If you run two heals, sure, you can take a Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Scrapper, or whatever really, because at that point you aren't playing Meta and massively overhealing anyway and just about anything goes.

I don't think you understand how insane one spec providing 25 Might for 10 players is value/damage contribution wise, especially on top of being able to solo heal and provide additional unique both 5 and 10 man damage buffs, as well as Utility such as Entangle or Spirit emergency resses, in addition to other things like pushes for ad control.So no, Firebrand, Tempest etc. just can't compete with that. Which is why Druid indeed is and always has been meta for 10 man content.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Firebrand does way too many different task all in one go. It heals good, it boons good, it tanks good, its good dps, and good utility in terms of projectile hate, stability, and hard blocks.No, it can't do all of those things "all in one go". Sure, it's possible for FB to do all that, but
not
in one build.

To it will be darn near impossible to fit a new elite that outperforms firebrand in anyway if they dont nerf it hard in at least a few aspects because it already does every thing so good. To make something that people will want in groups or want to play over the current existing firebrand would require an unholy amount of power creep.That's actually a fair point. Yes, currently there's simply no concept space left for future Guardian especs. Everything that can be done, one of the already existing specs can already do, and do well. With the possible exception of the new spec having access to Alacrity, perhaps.

I honestly don't get that argument, never have.Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

See, it's going to take some time but ... eventually you and everyone else will understand that the consequence of having lots of builds to be successful with is ... a wide range in performance between all the builds available. This game isn't designed like others.

Condi Firebrand, Condi Renegade and Condi Weaver all are condi DPS specs doing about 37-38k DPS, "doing the same thing". Are they duplicates and redundant as choice? Should two of them just be nerfed into the ground so there just is one Condi DPS?Do dps Firebrand and dps Dragonhunter, which both do "the same thing" aka DPS, play the same and are redundant?Tempest and Weaver? Chrono and Mirage? Reaper and Scourge?

Non of these are "duplicate and worthless" choices. Different specs can fill the same role (DPS/Boon Support/Heal) and still feel very different, giving players a choice between different playstyles and themes to enjoy.That kind of variety is incredibly important for the longevity of a game imo.

If you like the theme of a profession and the role you enjoy most is let's say DPS, what's the harm of having multiple roughly equal options for that role within that profession that you enjoy, allowing you to either get some variety by playing either one now and then, or giving you greater satisfaction by being able to pick the one you enjoy playing more, rather than being forced into potentially the one you like less, because the better one is the new shiny now and the old one has to be crap now to make room.That's imo a terrible way of going about things. This constant invalidation of old content, systems and specs is exactly what crippled ANet and GW2 for years now.

So no, I disagree. Multiple specs, even within the same profession, can do the "same" thing differently just fine, adding to player choice and game depth in a positive way.The fact that Anet feels like they have to stamp the role onto an Elite Spec and invalidate any previously existing build for that role on that Profession so there isn't ever a choice that could confuse the simple minded player is quite frankly patronizing.I think we can handle it.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:That's exactly what some of us were saying when everyone was calling for Chrono nerfs. In the end, Chrono got indeed nerfed, but got only replaced after FB/Alaren pair got buffed to the point of being able to pick up the slack. And now, predictably, people are calling for FB nerfs, showing that the community as a whole doesn't learn all that well with past mistakes.

It's a very different situation though. Chrono was indeed broken, being able to do all boons, all CC, all boon strip, all tanking, all skips, all ad control etc. in one spec all at once, which meant nothing could ever compete with Chrono unless it was nerfed, or the game would have to be insanely powercrept with every support just doing literally everything as well.The voices i mentioned started long
before
infamous Chaos Chrono build.

Chrono was a problem way before the late Chaos Chrono, and Chrono + Druid where the only viable support choices across all of endgame/coordinated group content for ~4 years, way overshadowing Firebrand and Renegade then and now.The game was getting incredibly stale and something needed to change.

At least, thanks to the Chrono nerfs, now all 4 are viable across all endgame, with FB + Ren shining in Fractals and all of them having a place in in Raids.That's not perfect ofc, but at least better.Now we are in a different situation though, and unlike Chrono, which actively kept other Quickness and Alacrity providers (FB and Ren) completely irrelevant bc it was so insanely good and the whole package alone, right now there aren't any other Specs that can fill the roles of Quickness or Alacrity providers that are being kept down by either Chrono, Firebrand or Renegade.No other options exist. Nerfing either of those specs won't change that.

@Asum.4960 said:Why can't power DPS Spellbreaker be good, as well as power DPS Berserker, etc.? Just because they operate on the same profession framework? What's wrong with more variety?I for example quite enjoyed power Spellbreaker when it was still good, and really don't enjoy Power Berserker at all. Why does it matter that they share the same core profession? Why can there ever be only one viable spec for some things? Isn't that exactly the issue, too little variety?

As far as I can tell there are two reasons for this: First, the berserker elite specialization gives core warrior more of the same tools which it already had, whereas spellbreaker adds new options to the warrior's kit. Second, spellbreaker inherently has better defensive than the berserker. Meaning that spellbreaker builds will outdo berserker builds defensively as well as in regards to flexibility/ utility. The way the developers made up for that was giving berserker superior offensive power.

And that sounds good on paper, sure, but ingame it just means power Spellbreaker (which used to be a viable ~37k DPS) just got deleted from PvE endgame and now people just need to play something else if they want to contribute, and if they enjoyed how power Spellbreaker DPS played, they are just screwed, as Berserker plays quite differently.Meanwhile SPB would be completely fine on ~35k DPS, giving people more viable options in how to enjoy the game.

Not a fan of this attitude that anything that has some baked in defensive mechanic, no matter how minor it might be in practice, can never be relevant in PvE endgame, with everybody just wanting pure glasscannon DPS specs entirely reliant on supports carrying them.Having things like Full Counter, Barrier or (thankfully that attitude is slowly changing on Anet's part it seems) Shroud is not worth giving up 5-8k DPS. It never will be. Keeping a spec purposefully behind by that much bc it has some defense essentially just means that it doesn't exist for organised PvE.

@Asum.4960 said:So too is there is plenty room on Guard for new specs, without the need to obliterate either DH or FB.Generally dont agree here firebrand is too good at too many roles the only way any people would play any role for the next elite spec of gaurdian is if its simply better from a numbers prespective aka power creep which is bad for 2 reasons1 its gross to see that kind of power creep added to the game2 it would just invalidate Firebrand anyways for those roles its power crept in.

It would overall be better to cut firebrand back and then make the new elite spec perform decent in line rather than over boosting it just so people feel the need to use it. Either way you end up with some role of firebrands getting put into the trashcan. I would prefer anet do proper balancing than invalidating through power creep.

What powercreep though? You keep using it as buzzword, but where is the actual creep there?Let's say Guardian gets another Condi DPS spec that clocks in around 38k DPS, while Firebrand stays at 36-37k - but they both play differently, with the new spec not having access to the supporty Tomes and as frequent Aegis, doing something else instead.

What exactly got powercrept? There are other professions that provide 38k+ DPS, like Renegade, Tempest, Weaver, Mirage, Chrono, Soulbeast, Holosmith, etc.

Just because condi Renegade does more DPS than condi Firebrand doesn't mean nobody plays Firebrand, neither does a new spec of the same Profession need to invalidate previous specs. They can all exist at the same time, offering different themes and playstyles, and non of it has to powercreep or completely invalidate what came before.

Otherwise you get a bland, one-dimensional game with very limited obvious choices that you are railroaded into.Invalidating old fun and balanced options just to sell some new shiny which essentially replaces it, which players might or might not enjoy over the old one, is imo an awful way to do Elite Specs. We have too few options as it is.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Druid cant heal 10 but can provide might for 10 but its heals isnt really very strong and might is something other classes except mesmer can grant

Druid can heal enough to keep a 10 man Squad alive on it's own, while generating Might for 10 people and giving out unique buffs (while also being able to tank).That's a value package nothing else can compete with.Yes, other classes can give might too, but either only 5 man and/or without unique buffs, which means you need double the support slots for likely lower effect.The healing itself you actually need with half decent player's is minimal, and pretty much all healers in GW2 massively overheal.

Lol no... Druid cannot do that it provides might and even thats not the best value package in a lot of cases.I think the only time i see druid these days is in boneskinner strike missions. Generally heal brand is the go to healer for most content like raids, fractals, and most of the other strikes. EVEN in strikes scourge is more value than druids due to its ability to power res, barrier, and it even can provide might to some extent. I generally dont see alot of druids these days unless its a friend of a friend who just wants to play druid. The go to staple for pugs is basically locked into firebrand for healing a utility + boons.

Good to know you just don't know what you are talking about then, because Druid is and literally always has been since the inception of Raids, for 5 years now uninterrupted been the Meta Main/Solo heal for 10 man content (and for 3-4 years of that time, along with Chrono also being the only pick for 5 man content with Fractals).It absolutely can solo heal and buff a Raid squad.

If you run two heals, sure, you can take a Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Scrapper, or whatever really, because at that point you aren't playing Meta and massively overhealing anyway and just about anything goes.

I don't think you understand how insane one spec providing 25 Might for 10 players is value/damage contribution wise, especially on top of being able to solo heal and provide additional unique both 5 and 10 man damage buffs, as well as Utility such as Entangle or Spirit emergency resses, in addition to other things like pushes for ad control.So no, Firebrand, Tempest etc. just can't compete with that. Which is why Druid indeed is and always has been meta for 10 man content.

@ZDragon.3046 said:Firebrand does way too many different task all in one go. It heals good, it boons good, it tanks good, its good dps, and good utility in terms of projectile hate, stability, and hard blocks.No, it can't do all of those things "all in one go". Sure, it's possible for FB to do all that, but
not
in one build.

To it will be darn near impossible to fit a new elite that outperforms firebrand in anyway if they dont nerf it hard in at least a few aspects because it already does every thing so good. To make something that people will want in groups or want to play over the current existing firebrand would require an unholy amount of power creep.That's actually a fair point. Yes, currently there's simply no concept space left for future Guardian especs. Everything that can be done, one of the already existing specs can already do, and do well. With the possible exception of the new spec having access to Alacrity, perhaps.

I honestly don't get that argument, never have.Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

See, it's going to take some time but ... eventually you and everyone else will understand that the consequence of having lots of builds to be successful with is ... a wide range in performance between all the builds available. This game isn't designed like others.

Condi Firebrand, Condi Renegade and Condi Weaver all are condi DPS specs doing about 37-38k DPS, "doing the same thing". Are they duplicates and redundant as choice? Should two of them just be nerfed into the ground so there just is one Condi DPS?Do dps Firebrand and dps Dragonhunter, which both do "the same thing" aka DPS, play the same and are redundant?Tempest and Weaver? Chrono and Mirage? Reaper and Scourge?

Non of these are "duplicate and worthless" choices. Different specs can fill the same role (DPS/Boon Support/Heal) and still feel very different, giving players a choice between different playstyles and themes to enjoy.That kind of variety is incredibly important for the longevity of a game imo.

If you like the theme of a profession and the role you enjoy most is let's say DPS, what's the harm of having multiple roughly equal options for that role within that profession that you enjoy, allowing you to either get some variety by playing either one now and then, or giving you greater satisfaction by being able to pick the one you enjoy playing more, rather than being forced into potentially the one you like less, because the better one is the new shiny now and the old one has to be kitten now to make room.That's imo a terrible way of going about things. This constant invalidation of old content, systems and specs is exactly what crippled ANet and GW2 for years now.

So no, I disagree. Multiple specs, even within the same profession, can do the "same" thing differently just fine, adding to player choice and game depth in a positive way.The fact that Anet feels like they have to stamp the role onto an Elite Spec and invalidate any previously existing build for that role on that Profession so there isn't ever a choice that could confuse the simple minded player is quite frankly patronizing.I think we can handle it.

Mirage is only good in 1 raid boss and even there its not great

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@"Mellow.7409" said:Nerfs is not fun for anyone (glances at crowd control damage as a Warrior), why not buff underperforming professions instead?

I am down with that, Give warrior some of its toys back so we warrior players can really go at it again. But Id also like to see the other supports be brought in-line with firebrand; Its support/damage and utility is unmatched when compared with druid/tempest/Heal-regade and I think those specs need to be brought up to the level where they can compete IN ANY GAME MODE with firebrand to make it so its really "Run the one you like" not "run this one because the others are dumb."

Firebrand overshadows them, this needs to be addressed and needs to be fixed and I really hope it happens soon. Honestly I think Druid needs a hard look at, because for the utility and power firebrand has Id gladly trade my perma-roots that work wonders when solo-roaming in WvW to be able to help my team on friday nights more. Because CA just does not cut it..

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:But Id also like to see the other supports be brought in-line with firebrand; Its support/damage and utility is unmatched when compared with druid/tempest/Heal-regade and I think those specs need to be brought up to the level where they can compete IN ANY GAME MODE with firebrand to make it so its really "Run the one you like" not "run this one because the others are dumb."

That means, for PvE, to give them Quickness or Alacrity access.In PvP, where stacking in Mantra range and providing perma Quickness is not a thing, Support Tempest (which is Meta) completely blows support Firebrand (which isn't Meta) out of the water, since it's a more powerful support spec, but just lacks Quickness for PvE content.

For WvW, Guardian has always been a mainstay because of it's stability application (which is essentially for WvW what Quickness is for PvE), for years before Firebrand was even a thing, so you would have to look at core Guardian there, which people would just return to should FB be obliterated by nerfs, over other things.

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Firebrand overshadows them, this needs to be addressed and needs to be fixed and I really hope it happens soon. Honestly I think Druid needs a hard look at, because for the utility and power firebrand has Id gladly trade my perma-roots that work wonders when solo-roaming in WvW to be able to help my team on friday nights more. Because CA just does not cut it..

Druid has been Meta for Raids without interruption since both were first introduced in 2015, pushing out any other heal/might support to offheal or bust status (for groups who run 2 heals only), and is along Banner Warrior and Chrono the only thing that comes to mind that has been uncontested in it's role for pretty much it's entire existence.

Removing 10 people target caps from CA (Grace of the Land) and Spirits and giving it 5 man Quickness instead could address both the issue that nothing can compete with Druid for 10 man support, as well as making it relevant for 5 man content again.

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@"Asum.4960" said:Condi Firebrand, Condi Renegade and Condi Weaver all are condi DPS specs doing about 37-38k DPS, "doing the same thing". Are they duplicates and redundant as choice?

HOLD ON ... you were asking why a CERTAIN CLASS can't have two viable specs doing the same thing ... FB, Weaver and Renegade are all DIFFERENT classes. Don't move the goalpost on me. Let me requote you and reanswer you to keep this discussion HONEST.

Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

Thief has only power specs if we dont count a meme condi for pvp tho.

and are those worthwhile specs to you? I mean ... what are you people talking about 'doing the same thing' ... just being power specs is doing the same thing? That's a bit of a stretch don't you think? I mean, that begs to ask what class DOESN'T have two viable specs 'doing the same thing' ... EVERY class has two viable specs that are power. The original question doesn't make much sense to being with. I can think of a few 'viable' specs on Guardian that are power specs if that's what people want to define as 'doing the same thing'. I hardly think that's a good definition, but if that's the one you guys are using ... seems like we don't have a problem here to begin with.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Asum.4960" said:Condi Firebrand, Condi Renegade and Condi Weaver all are condi DPS specs doing about 37-38k DPS, "doing the same thing". Are they duplicates and redundant as choice?

HOLD ON ... you were asking why a CERTAIN CLASS can't have two viable specs doing the same thing ... FB, Weaver and Renegade are all DIFFERENT classes. Don't move the goalpost on me. Let me requote you and reanswer you to keep this discussion HONEST.

Why can't Guardian have two viable specs doing the same thing?

Because that makes no sense to do so. if you want two specs doing the same thing, you're basically duplicating specs ... that's redundant and worthless choice.

I'm not moving the goalpost, the question I'm asking is why does it arbitrarily matter if it's on the same profession?

Again let's take the examples of Condi Reaper and Condi Scourge, or Power Spellbreaker and Power Berserker.Both of those sets feel very different, having very different playstyles, rotations and even theme.

Why do you propose it is redundant and worthless to give player's those different options of play for the same role, compared to having something play fairly similarly, filling the same role, on two different professions? Why even make that distinction, at least on such a hard line as "worthless"?

Let's take DH and Soulbeast. Both are very bursty power DPS's playing fairly similarly. If someone wants to play that role, they are both worthwhile having, since their rotations differ and someone might not enjoy the theme of being a Dragonhunter, but really dig the idea of merging with pets, or vice versa.The same applies to Berserker and Spellbreaker.Someone might not enjoy the theme of going into a rage, and rather play the tactical Spellbreaker theme, or vice versa, both having different rotations and gamepay feel.

So what is the difference? Why does just having the same core profession turn two different specs filling the same role from worthwhile to worthless and redundant?Why does one need to get destroyed by nerfs to "make room" for the new shiny, limiting options and disenfranchising those who did enjoy the gameplay and theme of the previous spec and role, when there is plenty room for more variety?

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