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Seriously Needed Balance Changes (Scrapper, Holosmith, Thief, Elementalists)


Enduronex.4865

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What needs to be immediately Nerfed:

Decap Scrapper (throw mine and personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times), Static Shocker needs barrier bonus reduction to 40% of what it is now [even though this hurts core engineers too, it's got to go]Holosmith: Reduce Grenade Barrage dmg by 10%, reduce Poison Grenade poison stacks to 1/grenade and reduce poison duration to 6 seconds, remove Lesser Grenade BarrageEngineer General: (Remove Daze from Flash bang and replace with

Thieves: Shadow Arts needs to be addressed or if it cannot, reworked; the strength of the stealth synergy is way too high on daredevils. They have unmatched mobility, do a lot of damage (7 K backstabs from stealth and an unblockable daze via Swipe that has 0 cast time forcing other players to guess dodge), avoid getting hit because of so much stealth and 150 endurance bar, and cannot be crippled, immobilized, or chilled because of Unhindered Combatant Trait. Now I don't mind the damage and mobility synergy, given Thieves are in the lowest base health pool, but the stealth is just too much. Needs to go. The stealth mechanic in competitive is a problem anyway because if someone does that much damage, you SHOULD see it coming. Addressing Shadow Arts would also reduce the unbreakable chain of CCs that deadeyes can exert on a target - CC, immobilize, dmg, repeat until the target is dead.

For Condi thief specifically: Reduce the stacks of confusion that pistols can apply. A response to a condi thief shouldn't be the thing killing an opponent.

ElementalistsTempests: Shock Aura should daze rather than stun, especially given Powerful Aura's AoE potential on 4 other allies, it shuts down another team's fighting potential entirely unless they have a guard. With daze, at least a team or player can run away.

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@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As an alternative how about improving or increasing the duration of reveal on the classes (not that mesmer and the ele doesn't have access to it at all)

In general Reveal should be more prevalent before people initiate attacks so that there can be room for reacting and dodging. Big attacks on all professions honestly should.

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@memausz.7264 said:What needs to be immediately Nerfed:

Decap Scrapper (throw mine and personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times), Static Shocker needs barrier bonus reduction to 40% of what it is now [even though this hurts core engineers too, it's got to go]

I really like that this build showed up because it's new and interesting...why it showed up is a mystery. but frankly, aside from the spectacle of a such a unique and interesting build...it's extremely annoying to fight. The constant CC's is what makes the build work...but it's also it's most annoying attribute.

Right now it is frustrating to fight this build and a big part of me wants to see it disappear, but also a part of me would like to see it stay...and that instead of nerfs, we should just have tools to be able to deal with builds like these...

But of course stability was unceremoniously stripped from the game so there exists less counter play.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@memausz.7264 said:What needs to be immediately Nerfed:

Decap Scrapper (throw mine and personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times), Static Shocker needs barrier bonus reduction to 40% of what it is now [even though this hurts core engineers too, it's got to go]

I really like that this build showed up because it's new and interesting...why it showed up is a mystery. but frankly, aside from the spectacle of a such a unique and interesting build...it's extremely annoying to fight. The constant CC's is what makes the build work...but it's also it's most annoying attribute.

Right now it is frustrating to fight this build and a big part of me wants to see it disappear, but also a part of me would like to see it stay...and that instead of nerfs, we should just have tools to be able to deal with builds like these...

But of course stability was unceremoniously stripped from the game so there exists less counter play.

dunno whats interesting or unique with decap scrapper.all it does is push people away from node while being too tanky to kill, we had same shit about 1 year ago, its no different then decap druid where he pishes you off and immobs you to decap while outhealing your damage.its a stat check build, if you cant kill/push it off you auto lose.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:dunno whats interesting or unique with decap scrapper.

i mean we could argue about this on all sorts of levels...in my opinon it is interesting and unique in that it is far different then what we normally experience in spvp.

CC hammer warrior is in a similar strain of builds that are like this. So ya i think that's interesting. If you don't then that's your opinon as well.

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Pistol thief’s don’t apply any confusion unless it’s from bewildering ambush or a rare combo field, which would be a completely separate issue. Shadow arts is a problem in general- it gives enough sustain to where you should never, I repeat Never, die and has so much mixed offensive pressure + utility that it basically has everything from acro and deadly arts combined. Other than that I’d like to see some real number tweaks- things like heart seeker damage and random over performing things like mauraders resilience need to be tweak imo. Other than that most thief builds are either 1.) balanced or 2.) not good at all, keep in mind many builds on thief got destroyed in the big balance patch

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@memausz.7264 said:What needs to be immediately Nerfed:

Decap Scrapper (throw mine and personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times), Static Shocker needs barrier bonus reduction to 40% of what it is now [even though this hurts core engineers too, it's got to go]

I really like that this build showed up because it's new and interesting...why it showed up is a mystery. but frankly, aside from the spectacle of a such a unique and interesting build...it's extremely annoying to fight. The constant CC's is what makes the build work...but it's also it's most annoying attribute.

Right now it is frustrating to fight this build and a big part of me wants to see it disappear, but also a part of me would like to see it stay...and that instead of nerfs, we should just have tools to be able to deal with builds like these...

But of course stability was unceremoniously stripped from the game so there exists less counter play.

Decap Scrapper isn't new and interesting at all, it's just another version of Knockback Spam Ventari we had years ago. Yeah, remember how much fun that was to deal with? This was before the big patch too so we had more stability back then. Decap Scrapper is worse. Gut it and throw it in the trash with its big brother build.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@memausz.7264 said:What needs to be immediately Nerfed:

Decap Scrapper (throw mine and personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times), Static Shocker needs barrier bonus reduction to 40% of what it is now [even though this hurts core engineers too, it's got to go]

I really like that this build showed up because it's new and interesting...why it showed up is a mystery. but frankly, aside from the spectacle of a such a unique and interesting build...it's extremely annoying to fight. The constant CC's is what makes the build work...but it's also it's most annoying attribute.

Right now it is frustrating to fight this build and a big part of me wants to see it disappear, but also a part of me would like to see it stay...and that instead of nerfs, we should just have tools to be able to deal with builds like these...

But of course stability was unceremoniously stripped from the game so there exists less counter play.

dunno whats interesting or unique with decap scrapper.all it does is push people away from node while being too tanky to kill, we had same kitten about 1 year ago, its no different then decap druid where he pishes you off and immobs you to decap while outhealing your damage.its a stat check build, if you cant kill/push it off you auto lose.

It's just one of those people who think build diversity is good even if it's builds that shouldn't exist in a PvP game at all.

Proper build diversity: Condi base Necro, Power Reaper, Support scourge(2/3 of these are trash, though)

Bad build diversity: Bunker base necro, bunker minion scourge, turret bunker eng, decap anything, water weaver.

Unrelated, but kind of related, I think it's funny that a game where you afk until 15m in for dampening with pure healers has easier to kill players than a game that's supposed to have no holy trinity. (wow vs gw2)

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:

It's just one of those people who think build diversity is good even if it's builds that shouldn't exist in a PvP game at all.

Proper build diversity: Condi base Necro, Power Reaper, Support scourge(2/3 of these are trash, though)

Bad build diversity: Bunker base necro, bunker minion scourge, turret bunker eng, decap anything, water weaver.

Unrelated, but kind of related, I think it's funny that a game where you afk until 15m in for dampening with pure healers has easier to kill players than a game that's supposed to have no holy trinity.

There is no such thing as "Proper" build diversity...do you know how ridiculous that sounds? There is no "bad" build diversity either... It's completly numerical...you either have less diversity, or more diversity...there is no good or bad.

You can't talk about a subject you know nothing about.

Truth is that Decap Scrapper exists because the counter forces that existed that repressed builds like these (High DPS, High Stability builds) don't exist anymore. Nothing changed about the traits to this scrapper build that made it more powerful than it was before...it just exists because it's counters were inadvertently removed...

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@"memausz.7264" said:What needs to be immediately Nerfed:

Decap Scrapper (throw mine and personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times), Static Shocker needs barrier bonus reduction to 40% of what it is now [even though this hurts core engineers too, it's got to go]Holosmith: Reduce Grenade Barrage dmg by 10%, reduce Poison Grenade poison stacks to 1/grenade and reduce poison duration to 6 seconds, remove Lesser Grenade BarrageEngineer General: (Remove Daze from Flash bang and replace with

Instead of gutting the core engineer to oblivion, how about instead addressing the true problem, which is overperforming elite specs? Both holo and scrapper offer too much in one elite trait line compared to core trait lines.

Scrapper offers solid melee damage, evade, block, mobility and AoE stun in one weapon (hammer) and good access to stability (mass momentum and kinetic stabilizers).

Holo offers basically an extra kit (photon forge) and added sustain, despite being supposedly "glass cannon" spec (holo is supposed to hit hard, but also has vulnerabilities). By extra sustain I mean stuff like Prismatic Converter (conditions to boon holo trait) and Crystal Configuration: Eclipse (barrier with corona burst) and Crystal Configuration: Zephyr (removal of movement-related conditions and superspeed and cripple). If you take away the defenses of above mentioned holo traits, holo will still hard, but at least it will be easier to snare or kill holo.

If you remove daze from flash bang, give explosives at least a decent grandmaster trait. Big boomer heals much less than the numbers stated in wiki, the real healing is slightly more than 100 points / second = pretty useless for a GM trait, about 350 per 3 seconds. Even backbag generator (alchemy line master trait) heals better and not that many select it over Emergency Elixir or comeback cure (mostly WvWvW).

I agree on one thing though. Lesser grenade barrage on heal must go. Using healing skill should not trigger damage skill as bonus, but instead of do something healing related, like cleanse a condition. I would rather see grenade range increased from 900 to 1200 (it used to be 1500 with grenadier trait) or just make grenadier base line and come up with a new trait.

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@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As an alternative how about improving or increasing the duration of reveal on the classes (note that mesmer and the ele doesn't have access to it at all)

^This. As an elementalist, I feel a bit like I've gotten lucky and won a prize if a thief ends up actually dying instead of escaping at will. It's one of the most garbage elements of GW2 combat, but the ubiquitous CC spam and stupid amounts of unrestricted mobility on some classes makes it difficult to actually use an otherwise excellent combat system. How about turning down the cheese a bit and letting us actually fight each other, huh? Stealth, mobility, and CC are just on another level in this game and it's just too much.

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Why ppl want to nerf granades when its fully delusional aproach. First of all holowsmith have no tradeoff atleast not real tradeoff like mirage and soulbeast have. Second is that holowsmith and scrapper traits are so bloated with modifiers and buffs. They need to change rune of resistance to normal 45 second cooldown and decap scrapper will be easy to counter with any condi build which is good for game diversity and counterplay. Trait which gives superspeed on heal should get reduced duration aswell so perma superspeed is not a deafault when you play scrapper and that alone is ok. Also they should nerf modifiers on scrapper and holosmith because those proffesions feels same now like core ranger and soulbeast playing same kit. For example scrapper should be support and holo is high dmg but right now scrapper granade can deal more dmg than holo. Function gyro trait shouldn t deal 5k+ instant dmg like it deals now aswell as daze which is super bad balance wise and opposite of intentions. Explosive entrance needs dmg reduced while blind on flashbang should have 1sec duration and thats only thing which need to be nerfed from core engi. Scrapper and Holosmith traitlines are bloated and have almost no real tradeoff and now with those dmg modifiers on both they are doing almost the same role. Try to make zerker druid build with druid traits and it won t work because its support build and i don t know why scrapper became holosmith 2.0.Holowsmith tradeoff should be around using kits so when you use granade kit it puts holo forge on cd 5 sec because it already works if you are holo forge but i think it should work opposite direction aswell so they won t be able to just spam things.What you forgot is core symbol guardian should get heavy nerf because its most braindead build in game and is currently strongest duelist which says alot. I would even lke more to keep things like this because if they nerf holo and leave this build, meta will be so boring with this kind of playstyles which nobody could take down in reasonable time worth plussing. Burn dh is also very broken condi build which doesn t need you to stack condis because well you can do it fast but for example if mirage or condi thief fails the burst they will need a rest but dh have 4 counts to try again seems fine :) I hope they won t nerf trapper rune just because of this bloated profession for condi (burn) playstyle while power is pretty balanced. Dh burn trapper should not have 4x burns of an fire weaver which needs few skills to achieve that and also have cooldown if it fails spike in difference to dh which can just spam and get rewarded.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:

It's just one of those people who think build diversity is good even if it's builds that shouldn't exist in a PvP game at all.

Proper build diversity: Condi base Necro, Power Reaper, Support scourge(2/3 of these are trash, though)

Bad build diversity: Bunker base necro, bunker minion scourge, turret bunker eng, decap anything, water weaver.

Unrelated, but kind of related, I think it's funny that a game where you afk until 15m in for dampening with pure healers has easier to kill players than a game that's supposed to have no holy trinity.

There is no such thing as "Proper" build diversity...do you know how ridiculous that sounds? There is no "bad" build diversity either... It's completly numerical...you either have less diversity, or more diversity...there is no good or bad.

You can't talk about a subject you know nothing about.

Truth is that Decap Scrapper exists because the counter forces that existed that repressed builds like these (High DPS, High Stability builds) don't exist anymore. Nothing changed about the traits to this scrapper build that made it more powerful than it was before...it just exists because it's counters were inadvertently removed...

There's a lot of builds that simply should not exist in a PvP game. The quicker people. and Anet understand this, the better off the game is.

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What are these suggestions?

Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

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@Ragnar.4257 said:What are these suggestions?

Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

this 100%. It's not only grenades, it's the insane synergy between explosive entrance + grenades + the free stacks of might and +% damage modifiers on holo

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@"Ragnar.4257" said:What are these suggestions?

Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

I disagree with explosive entrance getting a time limit, but agree that it should get a damage nerf.

You compare it with opening strike yourself, which works the same, it is applying the opening strike to the next attack without any time limit.There is a reason why they called it "explosive entrance", it's supposed to be the opening strike for engineer which can get refreshed through dodge (while opening strike can get refreshed through fury).

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Holosmith: Reduce Grenade Barrage dmg by 10%, reduce Poison Grenade poison stacks to 1/grenade and reduce poison duration to 6 seconds, remove Lesser Grenade Barrage
how many times i need say

Don't nerf grenades, it will effect scrappernerf Laser Edge

personal battering ram need 50% higher cooldown times

Nope, it's have ultra short range, and ez to miss

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:What are these suggestions?

Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

I disagree with explosive entrance getting a time limit, but agree that it should get a damage nerf.

You compare it with opening strike yourself, which works the same, it is applying the opening strike to the next attack without any time limit.There is a reason why they called it "explosive
entrance
", it's supposed to be the opening strike for engineer which can get refreshed through dodge (while opening strike can get refreshed through fury).

If it can potentially linger forever, it would need to do less damage than Reckless Dodge or Bound, which have to connect immediately, in melee range. Currently it does nearly 3x as much damage as those other damage-on-dodge traits, and doesn't even need to connect in melee.

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@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:What are these suggestions?

Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

I disagree with explosive entrance getting a time limit, but agree that it should get a damage nerf.

You compare it with opening strike yourself, which works the same, it is applying the opening strike to the next attack without any time limit.There is a reason why they called it "explosive
entrance
", it's supposed to be the opening strike for engineer which can get refreshed through dodge (while opening strike can get refreshed through fury).

If it can potentially linger forever, it would need to do less damage than Reckless Dodge or Bound, which have to connect immediately, in melee range. Currently it does nearly 3x as much damage as those other damage-on-dodge traits, and doesn't even need to connect in melee.

No, it doesn't need to deal less damage than these. The damage just needs to be balanced, which not necessarily means that it has to be lower than these 2 other traits.Context matters.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:What are these suggestions?

Flashbang isn't even the worst part of explosives. It's the free 3k damage per dodge from Explosive Entrance, which basically makes EVERY engineer skill a potential burst skill. Flashbang is just the faeces-flavoured cherry on the cake.

Grenades don't do all that much by themselves. But when a 2k hit becomes a 5k hit, just because the engineer dodged sometime in the last year, that's where the problem is. If they remove grenades, it'll be something else benefiting from a 3k damage boost per dodge.

It's equivalent to a +100% damage trait. Which is NUTS. The closest equivalent is Opening Strike on Ranger which is +25%. Which would turn a 2k hit into a 2.5k hit. not a 5K hit.

It needs to have the damage cut at least by 50%, and also a time-limit (3s?).

I disagree with explosive entrance getting a time limit, but agree that it should get a damage nerf.

You compare it with opening strike yourself, which works the same, it is applying the opening strike to the next attack without any time limit.There is a reason why they called it "explosive
entrance
", it's supposed to be the opening strike for engineer which can get refreshed through dodge (while opening strike can get refreshed through fury).

If it can potentially linger forever, it would need to do less damage than Reckless Dodge or Bound, which have to connect immediately, in melee range. Currently it does nearly 3x as much damage as those other damage-on-dodge traits, and doesn't even need to connect in melee.

No, it doesn't need to deal less damage than these. The damage just needs to be balanced, which not necessarily means that it has to be lower than these 2 other traits.Context matters.

Agree that not all traits have to be equivalent.

But there's no way to justify doing 3x as much damage AND being able to apply it from range.

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