Discussion comparing E-specs of Rev for hybrid build.

[ArielRebel.3426]

Recently started using Ren with a hybrid build (grieving or celestial gear with Mallyx + Kalla stances) and still on the fence about it. I do enjoy the shortbow when I want to poke before engaging balls to the wall with mace/axe but the SB 2nd and 3rd skills can be very wonky if not on flat and unobstructed terrain. Was wondering what my fellow forum dwellers were thinking about it. What they think would be better with that kind of build: core, Rev or Herald. And please explain why you have your opinion.

Edit: The discussion is about all 3 game modes : PVE, WvW and sPVP.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@"ArielRebel.3426" said:Recently started using Ren with a hybrid build (grieving or celestial gear with Mallyx + Kalla stances) and still on the fence about it. I do enjoy the shortbow when I want to poke before engaging balls to the wall with mace/axe but the SB 2nd and 3rd skills can be very wonky if not on flat and unobstructed terrain. Was wondering what my fellow forum dwellers were thinking about it. What they think would be better with that kind of build: core, Rev or Herald. And please explain why you have your opinion.

Edit: The discussion is about all 3 game modes : PVE, WvW and sPVP.

It can "Work" but its so much harder than it sounds; In theory it should be one of the best options given that revenant is by nature a jack-of-all-trades and master of none, however the game doesn't really make it gibe well with them. You loose more than you gain and honestly the only class that can do cele well is ele, grieving likely would be ranger/warrior given most of their weapons have power AND condi rolled into them. Revenant unfortunately doesn't gain much from either set from my experience, with Cele you do too little damage and are still very squishy and Grieving you're just squishy.

I will say it DID work in HoT(Cele) but they were nerfed and it just hasn't been the same; Ironically Rev is a class you have to invest in a specific build to make what you're trying to do shine. Whether that be healing, power DPS, condi or so on you NEED to invest to make the class really shine in those fields back when mallyx and embrace the darkness scaled better with power there were hybrid builds but A-net saw to their demise.

[Clownmug.8357]

In my experience (in wvw) hybrid Renegade does well at sustained damage which I believe should be the focus of a decent hybrid build. Personally I use the shortbow almost 90% of the time since it maintains that sustained damage so well. With mace + axe and Mallyx you usually end up interrupting your damage output by switching between ranged and melee skills, and switching to slower skills with low power coefficients.

Generally using the shortbow's autoattack most of the time works best due to its speed and power, the skills #2-4 work better at ramping up damage usually following CC. Also, clunkiness with terrain can potentially be avoided by limiting your usage of #2 and #3 skills in that respect. My typical "burst" combo is something like #5 -> #4 -> #2. If any CC is dodged the #3 skill can be used as a follow-up to maintain damage pressure.

As long as this kind of build takes Invocation + Renegade I think it will do well. All the traits providing might, fury, condition bonuses, and crit bonues push it way further than what other professions can achieve in my opinion. During most fights my wvw build with celestial armor + trinkets and grieving weapons usually has power around 2600+, 1200+ condition damage, and over 200% crit damage with 100% crit chance. That seems pretty good to me since I get to also have ~21500 HP, ~2800 armor and ~500 healing power.

[Buran.3796]

For open world solo PvE the best stat is trailblazer, hands down. You can go either Herald or Renegade; for the first take a look at the two videos from Lord Hizen in Youtube, for the Renegade take a look at the recently Nike! video. Power Herald can deal very well with most of the content in HoT, but soloing PoF boutins and other larger events is very hard for power users because you stop dealing damage when you evade, block, etc, whereas condi builds have both larger sustain and damage which stacks gradually with very few burst, so you can focus on defense and still wear down legendary foes. Griever works best (worked best) with the Firebrand, before they butchered the healing coeficients slaving that spec to menders or sage stats.

In PvP Renegade can be tankier (Jalis + Kalla) and act as a decent bunker with both pressure and support, but I don't like the Renegade legend (neither the bow) and I find condi Herald more suitable for 1 vs 1. I still think power Herald is the stronger build there, but requires zerk amulet and a lot of skill to be played, whereas the condi builds provide more forgiveness.

I don't use Renegade in WvW: in duels its AoE condi pressure can be easily avoided, and has no response to deal with either close combat thieves and holos nor ranged foes as beastmasters or mesmers. No idea about what is currently used in zergs: the hammer is currently a mess, but Herald is still probably better at teamfights than Renegade.

I think that is diffrent from a Guardian, in the sense that with that class I can use a similar burn build for all the game modes, whereas with Revemant I more lean to change builds and stats based on the goal.

[ArielRebel.3426]

Thanks for all your inputs :)

@"Clownmug.8357" said:In my experience (in wvw) hybrid Renegade does well at sustained damage which I believe should be the focus of a decent hybrid build. Personally I use the shortbow almost 90% of the time since it maintains that sustained damage so well. With mace + axe and Mallyx you usually end up interrupting your damage output by switching between ranged and melee skills, and switching to slower skills with low power coefficients.

Generally using the shortbow's autoattack most of the time works best due to its speed and power, the skills #2-4 work better at ramping up damage usually following CC. Also, clunkiness with terrain can potentially be avoided by limiting your usage of #2 and #3 skills in that respect. My typical "burst" combo is something like #5 -> #4 -> #2. If any CC is dodged the #3 skill can be used as a follow-up to maintain damage pressure.

As long as this kind of build takes Invocation + Renegade I think it will do well. All the traits providing might, fury, condition bonuses, and crit bonues push it way further than what other professions can achieve in my opinion. During most fights my wvw build with celestial armor + trinkets and grieving weapons usually has power around 2600+, 1200+ condition damage, and over 200% crit damage with 100% crit chance. That seems pretty good to me since I get to also have ~21500 HP, ~2800 armor and ~500 healing power.

Care to toss a build to your witcher fellow renegade?

[Yasai.3549]

Grieving Ren is actually not too strange to see in PvE content at all.

However if yu wanna play Hybrid in competitive, it boils down to what sort of encounters yu are looking to engage in.Hybrid Ren? Probably gonna do better as on point DPS for Conquest, and small scale for WvW.Hybrid Herald? Probably gonna do better as on point bunker for Conquest, and Solo roamer or small scale for WvW.

[ArielRebel.3426]

@"Yasai.3549" said:Grieving Ren is actually not too strange to see in PvE content at all.

However if yu wanna play Hybrid in competitive, it boils down to what sort of encounters yu are looking to engage in.Hybrid Ren? Probably gonna do better as on point DPS for Conquest, and small scale for WvW.Hybrid Herald? Probably gonna do better as on point bunker for Conquest, and Solo roamer or small scale for WvW.

Would something like this work? http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmxAUlfltQIsNKipRSsMCiNSgMDSgD706TF-zVJYsRNfhEZB0ZEkbK49FJI2DvlHFtA-w

Edit: still can't decide for my secondary stance, do I keep Kalla or use shiro?

[Clownmug.8357]

@ArielRebel.3426 said:Thanks for all your inputs :)

@"Clownmug.8357" said:In my experience (in wvw) hybrid Renegade does well at sustained damage which I believe should be the focus of a decent hybrid build. Personally I use the shortbow almost 90% of the time since it maintains that sustained damage so well. With mace + axe and Mallyx you usually end up interrupting your damage output by switching between ranged and melee skills, and switching to slower skills with low power coefficients.

Generally using the shortbow's autoattack most of the time works best due to its speed and power, the skills #2-4 work better at ramping up damage usually following CC. Also, clunkiness with terrain can potentially be avoided by limiting your usage of #2 and #3 skills in that respect. My typical "burst" combo is something like #5 -> #4 -> #2. If any CC is dodged the #3 skill can be used as a follow-up to maintain damage pressure.

As long as this kind of build takes Invocation + Renegade I think it will do well. All the traits providing might, fury, condition bonuses, and crit bonues push it way further than what other professions can achieve in my opinion. During most fights my wvw build with celestial armor + trinkets and grieving weapons usually has power around 2600+, 1200+ condition damage, and over 200% crit damage with 100% crit chance. That seems pretty good to me since I get to also have ~21500 HP, ~2800 armor and ~500 healing power.

Care to toss a build to your

witcher

fellow renegade?

Here you go: gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAUZltQMsNyjpRdsMijNSkMDigl2U/TD-zVRYVhnNqgTpNJQuKgeFBhLEU8BQcpQEJhYF0eJnF/00A-w

The stats I mentioned before are based on when this build has fury, 15x might, and 5x Kalla's Fervor, which it usually maintains 100% of the time.

[RisenHowl.2419]

If you're too squishy on renegade, it's because you aren't using torment runes.

[ArielRebel.3426]

@Clownmug.8357 said:

@ArielRebel.3426 said:Thanks for all your inputs :)

@Clownmug.8357 said:In my experience (in wvw) hybrid Renegade does well at sustained damage which I believe should be the focus of a decent hybrid build. Personally I use the shortbow almost 90% of the time since it maintains that sustained damage so well. With mace + axe and Mallyx you usually end up interrupting your damage output by switching between ranged and melee skills, and switching to slower skills with low power coefficients.

Generally using the shortbow's autoattack most of the time works best due to its speed and power, the skills #2-4 work better at ramping up damage usually following CC. Also, clunkiness with terrain can potentially be avoided by limiting your usage of #2 and #3 skills in that respect. My typical "burst" combo is something like #5 -> #4 -> #2. If any CC is dodged the #3 skill can be used as a follow-up to maintain damage pressure.

As long as this kind of build takes Invocation + Renegade I think it will do well. All the traits providing might, fury, condition bonuses, and crit bonues push it way further than what other professions can achieve in my opinion. During most fights my wvw build with celestial armor + trinkets and grieving weapons usually has power around 2600+, 1200+ condition damage, and over 200% crit damage with 100% crit chance. That seems pretty good to me since I get to also have ~21500 HP, ~2800 armor and ~500 healing power.

Care to toss a build to your

witcher

fellow renegade?

Here you go:

gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAUZltQMsNyjpRdsMijNSkMDigl2U/TD-zVRYVhnNqgTpNJQuKgeFBhLEU8BQcpQEJhYF0eJnF/00A-w

The stats I mentioned before are based on when this build has fury, 15x might, and 5x Kalla's Fervor, which it usually maintains 100% of the time.

Thanks!

@RisenHowl.2419 said:If you're too squishy on renegade, it's because you aren't using torment runes.

Yeah, I really do enjoy Rune of Tormenting. When you stack Steadfast Rejuvenation with Vengeful Hammers and Rune of Tormenting's heal procs, you have quite a good sustain. Makes the mace/axe much easier to use if you manage to stick to your target.

[Buran.3796]

@"ArielRebel.3426" said:

Would something like this work? http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmxAUlfltQIsNKipRSsMCiNSgMDSgD706TF-zVJYsRNfhEZB0ZEkbK49FJI2DvlHFtA-w

Edit: still can't decide for my secondary stance, do I keep Kalla or use shiro?

Ok, ok, ok: saw you build, then the one from Clownmug and then, the one from Snow Crows as condition (hybrid) renegade for PvE..

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAkeVlhQLsIajJRaMIKjBSjMBygjuk5TF-zRJYmR3fhEXZFZCUZEI8hIo/t8onG-e

...Your build is very similar to the one from Snow Crows: around 16K HP, ~2200 base power, ~2200 base armor, ~38% crit chance... Yours has larger crit damage (192% vs 150%) but outside torment (60%) the duration of your condis are only at 10% (vs theirs at 87% average). In terms of damage yours will underperform due the lack of expertise, but both will do fairly bad at surviving due the lack of defenses and sustain.

The one from Clownmug is better: similar base power, crit chance and crit damage but lower condi damage and lower overall damage output due again it lacks expertise. In exchange it provides a much sturdier 21K HP and near 2900 armor. But I don't thing that those are the best for either PvP or WvW.

The strongest PvP condi Renegade builds I fougth at PvP were combos of Jalis + Kalla with either sage, carrion or rabid amulet, so they were condition based, not hybrid, and the weapons of choice were usually shortbow with either staff or mace + shield. Going full "no blocks" with shortbow + mace& axe to a PvP/WvW party seems suicidal, specially outside a zerg. I can't be more specific about those builts due my attempts to clone their performance did poorly, but I think that for WvW trailblazer is a stronger stat for both condition Renegade and condition Herald. As I said, I'm not fan of the Renegade spec, its weapon and specially Kalla, so my experience with the spec is limited and not very grateful.

Now, with condi Herald I have more experience; I swap oftenly between power Herald, Condi Herald, power DH, burn DH, burn FB and some attempts to produce tanky Revs and Guardians (for PvP, in WvW you need a "brusiser" since a pure bunker/tank has no goal and will end defeated in that game mode). Lately, the best WvW/PvP condi Herald build I've been using was this one:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmABkex7lpQIsLSihRRMLCiJSgsCSgDrSZrD-zRRYkxHuZQHlRCJQIFg3Hig+3yjeaA-e

...Has 3K armor & 22.5K HP with 1700+ condition damage, torment duration maxed, burn duration at 82% and everything else at 62%. The 17% crit chance is anecdotal and can be easily replaced going full trailblazer by near 3500 armor and 25K HP. Sigils are flexible with room in the empty ones for classics as energy or new favourites as absortion, celerity or debility (cleansing and escape in PvP). This one worked well for me in PvP even against strong condi builds as burn Guardians, condi Beastmasters and Mesmer variants.

In PvE kills bosses slower than a pure dps condi/hybrid build, but can solo things that Renegade can't. Is a near perfect bruiser which has some weakness which can be exploited for some foes in PvP/WvW, but that's fair. Is very slow to kill and easier to play than a power Herald; weaker in mobility and raw burst damage but better at teamfights.

[ArielRebel.3426]

@Buran.3796 said:

@"ArielRebel.3426" said:

Would something like this work?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmxAUlfltQIsNKipRSsMCiNSgMDSgD706TF-zVJYsRNfhEZB0ZEkbK49FJI2DvlHFtA-w

Edit: still can't decide for my secondary stance, do I keep Kalla or use shiro?

Ok, ok, ok: saw you build, then the one from Clownmug and then, the one from Snow Crows as condition (hybrid) renegade for PvE..

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAkeVlhQLsIajJRaMIKjBSjMBygjuk5TF-zRJYmR3fhEXZFZCUZEI8hIo/t8onG-e

...Your build is very similar to the one from Snow Crows: around 16K HP, ~2200 base power, ~2200 base armor, ~38% crit chance... Yours has larger crit damage (192% vs 150%) but outside torment (60%) the duration of your condis are only at 10% (vs theirs at 87% average). In terms of damage yours will underperform due the lack of expertise, but both will do fairly bad at surviving due the lack of defenses and sustain.

The one from Clownmug is better: similar base power, crit chance and crit damage but lower condi damage and lower overall damage output due again it lacks expertise. In exchange it provides a much sturdier 21K HP and near 2900 armor. But I don't thing that those are the best for either PvP or WvW.

The strongest PvP condi Renegade builds I fougth at PvP were combos of Jalis + Kalla with either sage, carrion or rabid amulet, so they were condition based, not hybrid, and the weapons of choice were usually shortbow with either staff or mace + shield. Going full "no blocks" with shortbow + mace& axe to a PvP/WvW party seems suicidal, specially outside a zerg. I can't be more specific about those builts due my attempts to clone their performance did poorly, but I think that for WvW trailblazer is a stronger stat for both condition Renegade and condition Herald. As I said, I'm not fan of the Renegade spec, its weapon and specially Kalla, so my experience with the spec is limited and not very grateful.

Now, with condi Herald I have more experience; I swap oftenly between power Herald, Condi Herald, power DH, burn DH, burn FB and some attempts to produce tanky Revs and Guardians (for PvP, in WvW you need a "brusiser" since a pure bunker/tank has no goal and will end defeated in that game mode). Lately, the best WvW/PvP condi Herald build I've been using was this one:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmABkex7lpQIsLSihRRMLCiJSgsCSgDrSZrD-zRRYkxHuZQHlRCJQIFg3Hig+3yjeaA-e

...Has 3K armor & 22.5K HP with 1700+ condition damage, torment duration maxed, burn duration at 82% and everything else at 62%. The 17% crit chance is anecdotal and can be easily replaced going full trailblazer by near 3500 armor and 25K HP. Sigils are flexible with room in the empty ones for classics as energy or new favourites as absortion, celerity or debility (cleansing and escape in PvP). This one worked well for me in PvP even against strong condi builds as burn Guardians, condi Beastmasters and Mesmer variants.

In PvE kills bosses slower than a pure dps condi/hybrid build, but can solo things that Renegade can't. Is a near perfect bruiser which has some weakness which can be exploited for some foes in PvP/WvW, but that's fair. Is very slow to kill and easier to play than a power Herald; weaker in mobility and raw burst damage but better at teamfights.

Always was under the impression that expertise is pretty much wasted in PvP because most condis are cleansed after a couple of seconds but yes in PVE expertise im sure is quite powerful. I definitly understand why it's better to not be glass cannon and have a defensive stat for pvp and wvw. It's just I love the "going hybrid" idea and, sadly, beside celestial there's no prefix that allows you to be hybrid and not glass cannony to my knowledge. Also, a small detail yes, but don't forget that renegade gets 25% longer and stronger bleeds from traits too and bleed and torment are the 2 main condis from renegade.

My build changed since then, it's now http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmxAUlfltQHsNyhpRNsM6hNSfMDKgl+06TH-zVJYsRNfpEZBUZI0ZE0bC49FJI2DvlHFtA-wWith this you sacrifice a bit of burst (that corruption and demon stance brings) but get much more tankyness and sustain to counter the glass cannony aspect of the build. You have access to reliable CCs (shortbow's 5, mace's or staff's 5 depending on your choice, Darkrazor's Daring and Forced Engagement) to apply Weakness (so that's another form of damage reduction). The bubble on heal protects against projectiles, applies weakness and gives a dark field (so life steal with shortbow). You also pretty much have vigor 100% of the time so that's a permanent 15% damage reduction, and it's easy to always have 5 stacks of Kalla's fervor so that's 35% condi damage reduction so you permanently have those 2 damage reductions. In Renegade stance, the heal gives another 50% damage reduction against condis, otherwise in the dwarf stance that's 20 damage reduction (both direct and condi) from Vengeful Hammers and 50% from RotGD. Finally, with Steadfast Rejuvenation, you get incredibly good healing when using Vengeful Hammers (both from SR and the hammers themselves) and SoulCleave's Summit (again, healing both from SR and SCS's life steal) on top of Runes of Tormenting healing effects. Final note, I use 4 "on swap" sigils, geomancy, hydromancy, doom and cleansing and whenever I'm swapping, I switch legend and then weapons so I get all 4 sigil procs every 9 seconds, increasing the burst but also surviving capabilities thanks to sigil of cleansing removing 3 condis every time (could pair with Cleansing Channel to get 4 condis removed every swap) added on top of the dwarf's heal removing 5 condis every 30sec or so.

[ArielRebel.3426]

So I was discussing it with a friend and was wondering if going hybrid is actually worth it because, supposedly, it doesn't deal as much damage.

[Clownmug.8357]

@"ArielRebel.3426" said:So I was discussing it with a friend and was wondering if going hybrid is actually worth it because, supposedly, it doesn't deal as much damage.

I think it depends on how your damage is distributed and applied. Your build seems like it leans heavily toward condi even though it doesn't have the typical skills/traits used to apply condis. With full grieving gear you're probably better off with a less sustainy, more bursty build.

See this player as an example: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/94374/vt-hobo-grieving-renegade-roaming

[ArielRebel.3426]

@Clownmug.8357 said:

@"ArielRebel.3426" said:So I was discussing it with a friend and was wondering if going hybrid is actually worth it because, supposedly, it doesn't deal as much damage.

I think it depends on how your damage is distributed and applied. Your build seems like it leans heavily toward condi even though it doesn't have the typical skills/traits used to apply condis. With full grieving gear you're probably better off with a less sustainy, more bursty build.

See this player as an example:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/94374/vt-hobo-grieving-renegade-roaming

If I decided to go full condi, is a "bunker renegade" build any good (mostly for sPVP or defending on wvw)? Something like Dire. I would expect Herald to be better, eh?

[Clownmug.8357]

@ArielRebel.3426 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:

@ArielRebel.3426 said:So I was discussing it with a friend and was wondering if going hybrid is actually worth it because, supposedly, it doesn't deal as much damage.

I think it depends on how your damage is distributed and applied. Your build seems like it leans heavily toward condi even though it doesn't have the typical skills/traits used to apply condis. With full grieving gear you're probably better off with a less sustainy, more bursty build.

See this player as an example:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/94374/vt-hobo-grieving-renegade-roaming

If I decided to go full condi, is a "bunker renegade" build any good (mostly for sPVP or defending on wvw)? Something like Dire. I would expect Herald to be better, eh?

Yeah, for wvw I think Herald is definitely better for full condi bunker just because of Infuse Light and the +10% health trait. I have no idea what works well for sPvP though.

[Strider.7849]

@ArielRebel.3426 said:Recently started using Ren with a hybrid build (grieving or celestial gear with Mallyx + Kalla stances) and still on the fence about it. I do enjoy the shortbow when I want to poke before engaging balls to the wall with mace/axe but the SB 2nd and 3rd skills can be very wonky if not on flat and unobstructed terrain. Was wondering what my fellow forum dwellers were thinking about it. What they think would be better with that kind of build: core, Rev or Herald. And please explain why you have your opinion.

Edit: The discussion is about all 3 game modes : PVE, WvW and sPVP.

I've played a hybrid build with Herald initially and to be honest while it is very strong in small scale/roaming, it is very similar in function to the old site/trailblazer condi Mesmer - without the disengage. You will definitely kill most specs who choose to fight you in 1v1 and it can fight outnumbered comfortably up to 1v3. It lacks though one of the most critical components for being a successful roamer, mobility/disengage. You're limited to mallyx leap and axe port (requiring a target).

As a whole, I believe that the hybrid build is better since it's capable of dealing with specs that counter heavy condi builds, and you may end up stalemating certain encounters that you wouldn't if you weren't pure condi. One thing I'd recommend is using sword/x (usually it's advised shield) over shortbow. I'd even say staff over that as shortbow is a full offensive set and can leave you vulnerable.

I also feel that core > Herald > renegade. Reason being is core can run Shiro and mallyx allowing you to have maximum mobility. Herald has the greatest in combat survivability and damage, renegade would probably be better suited to group roaming. This is my personal opinion though.

[ArielRebel.3426]

@Strider.7849 said:

@ArielRebel.3426 said:Recently started using Ren with a

hybrid build

(grieving or celestial gear with Mallyx + Kalla stances) and still on the fence about it. I do enjoy the shortbow when I want to poke before engaging balls to the wall with mace/axe but the SB 2nd and 3rd skills can be very wonky if not on flat and unobstructed terrain. Was wondering what my fellow forum dwellers were thinking about it. What they think would be better with that kind of build: core, Rev or Herald. And please explain why you have your opinion.

Edit: The discussion is about all 3 game modes : PVE, WvW and sPVP.

I've played a hybrid build with Herald initially and to be honest while it is very strong in small scale/roaming, it is very similar in function to the old site/trailblazer condi Mesmer - without the disengage. You will definitely kill most specs who choose to fight you in 1v1 and it can fight outnumbered comfortably up to 1v3. It lacks though one of the most critical components for being a successful roamer, mobility/disengage. You're limited to mallyx leap and axe port (requiring a target).

As a whole, I believe that the hybrid build is better since it's capable of dealing with specs that counter heavy condi builds, and you may end up stalemating certain encounters that you wouldn't if you weren't pure condi. One thing I'd recommend is using sword/x (usually it's advised shield) over shortbow. I'd even say staff over that as shortbow is a full offensive set and can leave you vulnerable.

I also feel that core > Herald > renegade. Reason being is core can run Shiro and mallyx allowing you to have maximum mobility. Herald has the greatest in combat survivability and damage, renegade would probably be better suited to group roaming. This is my personal opinion though.

Thanks for your input. Since my previous post I actually stopped playing hybrid/condi and went back to a power build. Renegade offers the range weapon that Rev desperately needed since hammer was gutted and the summons (icerazor + soulcleave followed by shortbow #3) can produce a lot of burst potential if the target remains in the AoE of said summons which happens a lot in PVE. I still havent tested it in PVP or WvW... it would probably need a buddy that brings a lot of CC to help you lock down targets into your summons. So in 1v1s it's probably not ideal if your opponent expects the shortbow #5 and dodges it, but if he doesn't, it can really surprise them with great burst. Otherwise, in small scale battles, it can really shine if you're not focused (because yeah, renegade doesn't have any tool to disengage or counter CC/focus fire as you said, herald is so much better at that).