Surge of the mists

[ArielRebel.3426]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@ArielRebel.3426 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:I read this thread and it gives me the impression that the class is trash, but the only things that actually feel bad to me are Ventari and not being able to aim during the windup on Surge of the Mists. I cannot comment on PvP, but at least in WvW the class still feels very strong.

The class isn't trash per say but it's a tiny shadow of what it used to be and it was never OP to begin with.

The comment “it was never OP to begin with” is just not factually based at all.

Revenant has

almost always

been in the meta in PvP/WvW since it released and in many cases has been meta defining or one of the strongest meta picks.

When you’re a class that routinely beats out 4 of the 9 classes for a slot in a 5 man composition

almost always,

and at various points have been taken in 2s, 3s, or even 4s, you’re not looking at a class that is “a shadow of what it once was.” Sure, it’s gotten hit by nerfs over the years, but so has literally every other class. After the giant balance patch in February literally every class is “a shadow of what it once was.”

Additionally, **Renegade is meta-defining in PvE for the last year to two years+, and certain versions of Rev have also had strong places in PvE meta at various points since HoT release (though admittedly it did fall off for about a year before PoF released)."Routinely beat 4 out of the 9 classes", that's an extremely strong affirmation that requires proof.Also, a class being part of "meta" in PVE isn't what I base my opinion if a class is good or not. Being a good alacrity/boon bot doesn't make it attracting to play for most players. Also, my point isn't necessarely only about damage, it's more about how cluncky the class became with changes such as what happened with staff #5.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Some tweaks were needed for sure, but nothing crazy. Several overzealous nerfs later and we have an ok-performing class that isn't great at much

This isn’t borne out by its current position in any of the game modes.And what position is that? And if you tell me "support" or "boon/alacrity bot", I'm gonna laugh.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

and is clunky to use

Completely subjective. I personally think Guardian is clunky af and rev is super smooth, but everyone tells me “Guardian is one of the easiest classes ever and easy to use.” I personally disagree but that doesn’t make my opinion about Guardian objective fact. Clunkiness can really only be measured subjectively.

Now, there are some bugs that could get fixed that would make the class smoother and less frustrating at times, but I still would never describe the class as a whole as clunky.Look up Renegade issues with it's summons or shortbow #4. You need to be on flat terrain for summons and #4 to be casted plus, you can't cast #4 behind you. Nope, you need to be facing where you want to cast it. That's on top of staff #5 being stupidly and ridiculously hard to land on anybody that isn't just standing still to name a few things that make the class clunky.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

and it's reflected in the (extremely) low amount of players actually playing the class. And, according to gw2efficiency, only about 5% of the playerbase doesn't have any of the expansions and/or plays f2p vers

Gw2 efficiency is potentially incredibly inaccurate. I’m a revenant main

with the vast majority of my thousands of hours on rev since HoT,

but I have multiples of other classes while I only have 1 rev and mostly only play that one rev.

So despite me being a completely dedicated rev main, my gw2 efficiency stats in terms of “quantity of professions” is not even close to accurate. I also have several alt accounts registered on GW2 efficiency that have the expansions and many different characters, but not any revs, further diminishing the revenant numbers.Look up "playtime", that's what I'm talking about. And if you say "revenant has low playtime because it's an expansion class", well not true, engineers is about as worse as Rev yet it's a core class.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:Also you’re not factoring in that rev is an expansion class so is naturally lower, as there are people who won’t give up their mains no matter what, or have multiples of core classes since all the core classes have been out longer while only having 1 rev.

Lastly, engineer is lower than rev on gw2 efficiency, yet I don’t think anyone would say it’s underrepresented or failing in any game mode.Maybe, maybe not, but Engi sure is considered one of the hardest class to play and is considered clunky by many because you have different kits and their CDs to manage depending on your build. So again, less played because it's harder/clunkier to use similarly to Rev.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@ArielRebel.3426 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@ArielRebel.3426 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:I read this thread and it gives me the impression that the class is trash, but the only things that actually feel bad to me are Ventari and not being able to aim during the windup on Surge of the Mists. I cannot comment on PvP, but at least in WvW the class still feels very strong.

The class isn't trash per say but it's a tiny shadow of what it used to be and it was never OP to begin with.

The comment “it was never OP to begin with” is just not factually based at all.

Revenant has

almost always

been in the meta in PvP/WvW since it released and in many cases has been meta defining or one of the strongest meta picks.

When you’re a class that routinely beats out 4 of the 9 classes for a slot in a 5 man composition

almost always,

and at various points have been taken in 2s, 3s, or even 4s, you’re not looking at a class that is “a shadow of what it once was.” Sure, it’s gotten hit by nerfs over the years, but so has literally every other class. After the giant balance patch in February literally every class is “a shadow of what it once was.”

Additionally, **Renegade is meta-defining in PvE for the last year to two years+, and certain versions of Rev have also had strong places in PvE meta at various points since HoT release (though admittedly it did fall off for about a year before PoF released)."Routinely beat 4 out of the 9 classes", that's an extremely strong affirmation that requires proof.

I don't have time to go dig through the past 6 years worth of proof, but looking at monthly AT videos or the wiki for any standings information is a good place to start. Here's two easy to access links where you won't need to dig through hours of video:Masters of the Arena (June 2020 Tournament) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Masters_of_the_ArenaWorld Championship 2016: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_World_Championship_2016

Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware there isn't much other "proof" in written form. If you want further proof, you can look up Monthly AT videos. These can be harder to find if you're not keeping up with it monthly, as they're not all on youtube and they're somewhat nebulously distributed across several different streamers on Twitch, and obviously there are two tournaments, one per each region, so finding both is important for each month. Obviously the more you look through the bigger your sample size and the more reliable your data.

But essentially:

Rev is almost always (note: not always, just almost always) picked by all top tier PvP teams during Worlds and Monthlies and all other big PvP tournaments since HoT, with at least 1 Rev on each team. French Worms won a monthly with 4 renegades in the past several months. Condi Rev was dominant in PvP until recently. Renegade or Herald still being picked almost always in Monthly AT compositions on top tier teams up until September. In September, Rev dropped off a little for teams that won, but was still used on most of the top tier teams.

In terms of WvW: Hammer Rev (or some variant of Rev) has been a must have in the vast, vast majority of WvW metas. It's consistently been part of the Big 3 (Necro/Guard/Rev) since HoT. This is undeniable. If you need proof of this look for organized zerg videos and GvG videos. Currently, Rev still is great in the zerg and while Hammer is clunkier than it used to be due to CoR changes, it's still used. And Condi Rev is incredibly powerful in small scale roaming.

Also, a class being part of "meta" in PVE isn't what I base my opinion if a class is good or not. Being a good alacrity/boon bot doesn't make it attracting to play for most players. Also, my point isn't necessarely only about damage, it's more about how cluncky the class became with changes such as what happened with staff #5.

You can't just ignore 33% of the game (and also the undeniably most supported portion of the game) when determining a class's worth. If you're only looking at PvP/WvW, then that's fine, but should be specified in posts, otherwise people will think you're talking generally. And if you are only looking at WvW/PvP, then Rev is undeniably one of the best over the past 6 years.

Ren isn't just an alacrity/boon bot though. Its also one of the best cDPS and is an incredibly strong healer as well. Rev only struggles with power damage, but that's nothing new and it's well known and will (hopefully) be fixed in the next expac. And sure, Staff 5 is clunkier, but it's not a game breaker. Additionally, other skills have become less clunky recently, too, with Sevenshot and Bloodbane Path tracking better.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Some tweaks were needed for sure, but nothing crazy. Several overzealous nerfs later and we have an ok-performing class that isn't great at much

This isn’t borne out by its current position in any of the game modes.And what position is that? And if you tell me "support" or "boon/alacrity bot", I'm gonna laugh.By position I mean "how it compares to other classes in those game modes."

PvP: Power Rev, Condi Rev, Renegade (whatever they're running for this) are all common, specifically the latter two in Monthly ATs.WvW: Hammer Rev in Zergs, Condi and Power Rev in small scale roaming.PvE: Alacrigade and cRen are both top tier. Heal Ren is excellent when comparing healers for groups that need a 2nd healer.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

and is clunky to use

Completely subjective. I personally think Guardian is clunky af and rev is super smooth, but everyone tells me “Guardian is one of the easiest classes ever and easy to use.” I personally disagree but that doesn’t make my opinion about Guardian objective fact. Clunkiness can really only be measured subjectively.

Now, there are some bugs that could get fixed that would make the class smoother and less frustrating at times, but I still would never describe the class as a whole as clunky.Look up Renegade issues with it's summons or shortbow #4. You need to be on flat terrain for summons and #4 to be casted plus, you can't cast #4 behind you. Nope, you need to be facing where you want to cast it. That's on top of staff #5 being stupidly and ridiculously hard to land on anybody that isn't just standing still to name a few things that make the class clunky.

I'm aware of all these issues. Hence why I mentioned "some bugs" in my above post. Still subjective whether or not that makes a class clunky or not. What's clunky for you isn't necessarily what's clunky for others. These few things don't ruin the fluidity or smoothness of the class for me.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

and it's reflected in the (extremely) low amount of players actually playing the class. And, according to gw2efficiency, only about 5% of the playerbase doesn't have any of the expansions and/or plays f2p vers

Gw2 efficiency is potentially incredibly inaccurate. I’m a revenant main

with the vast majority of my thousands of hours on rev since HoT,

but I have multiples of other classes while I only have 1 rev and mostly only play that one rev.

So despite me being a completely dedicated rev main, my gw2 efficiency stats in terms of “quantity of professions” is not even close to accurate. I also have several alt accounts registered on GW2 efficiency that have the expansions and many different characters, but not any revs, further diminishing the revenant numbers.Look up "playtime", that's what I'm talking about. And if you say "revenant has low playtime because it's an expansion class", well not true, engineers is about as worse as Rev yet it's a core class.

I mean Engi and the other 7 classes had a two year (not insignificant) headstart over Rev and is only 10,000 hours ahead. If anything the fact that Rev almost has as much playtime as one of the core classes says a lot, despite not having 2 years worth of potential time. I don't think this really bolsters your argument. Yes, both classes are the "lowest played." However, overall "lowest played" doesn't mean "not OP" or "not useful" or "not meta."

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:Also you’re not factoring in that rev is an expansion class so is naturally lower, as there are people who won’t give up their mains no matter what, or have multiples of core classes since all the core classes have been out longer while only having 1 rev.

Lastly, engineer is lower than rev on gw2 efficiency, yet I don’t think anyone would say it’s underrepresented or failing in any game mode.Maybe, maybe not, but it sure as hell is considered one of the hardest class to play (if not the hardest) and is considered clunky by many because you have different kits and their CDs to manage depending on your build. So again, less played because it's harder/clunkier to use similarly to Rev.

I mean to reiterate, clunky is not the same for everyone. Also the vocal voices on the forums are going to be much more those that dislike things or are more likely to complain than those that are satisfied, that's just generally how these things work, so the community "consensus" is not really a consensus at all, but a poor sampling of all the actual players.