Why SnowCrows is destroying Raiding

[Blumpf.2518]

Everyone who is raiding has heard of them. Snowcrows and their website with raidbuilds and recommendations what and how to play in raids.Unfortunately that leads to some problems.

Almost everyone in the LFG tool is thinking that this is the "meta" and the only way to play, so the builds are just copied and the raidsetups too.What people dont understand is, that snowcrows is a speedkill-guild and not the average random LFG raid. They know how to play their classes, what the bosses do and why and when they use certain traits or skill. Also their DPS is significantly higher that the DPS of the normal GW2 raider, allowing them to skip boss phases or mechanics.

With shorter phases you need lesser boon duration, less heal or even 1 less healer. You can sacrifice boon uptime and heal for more DPS to make the bosskill even faster.

BUT the average raid doesnt exist of 10 SC members, instead you will most of the time have people whose DPS is lower, who dont know their classes well, or you have a suboptimal raid composition or people dont know everything about the boss or people just make mistakes.And then you have a problem, because boss phases are longer. Boons will disappear because boon duration is bad, group takes more damage because protection is suddenly gone, area damage is ticking all the time and longer as the phase should be or heal is not enough.It also happens that CC phases take really long cause people dont use their CC skill or are just spamming all skills instead of saving CC skills. And then people go down and need to be rezzed and all of that makes the fights even longer.

All of that will happen in an average or random raid, but the snowcrows meta doesnt consider this. Snowcrows meta is made for a high-dps group that doesnt makes mistakes who is able to skip phases with dps.

As average raid, the sc speedkill meta is nerfing your own raid, because with it, most of the time, boon uptimes are short and heal and cc is not enough. And then people wipe with a normal raid, try again, wipe again and so on. But wiping 10 times with a speedkill setup is still slower, than killing the boss safe first or second try with a non speedkill setup were maybe the bossfight is 1-2 minutes longer.

Therefore i highly recommend for everyone who is not interested in speedkills, but just wants to raid to think about this. Bring higher Boondurations into the fight, especially for quickness and Alacrity you want to have 100% boon duration. Use Full Tanks (Minstreal Gear) for bosses who deal a lot of damage to the tank. Have one Healer for each Group with full healing gear. If the group still takes too much damage, bring a 2nd Banner Warrior and use all 4 Banners. If there are a lot of projectiles, use classes that have projectile reflect/block. If damage to group still is too high, use a 3rd Healer or get hybrid healers into the raid, for example condition necros who take the one big shadow trait. Even with full dps equip they can buff shield to 10 people then.And always be prepared to compensate mistakes, because in a normal raid, mistakes will happen. With a speedkill setup a mistake is most of the time a wipe. But if you can compensate it with more heal, higher boonduration, aegis, stability, reflects or whatever there is, you will survive mistakes.

Of course Snowcrows dont destroy random raids on intention, but out there are a lot of people for who the snowcrows raid meta is like a religion they have to follow, even if they dont know why. And there are a lot of people out there who dont even accept anything that is not meta, but which would actually help their raid kill a boss. With such people most of the time you will just get flamed or kicked out of the raid if you suggest bringing another healer or a 2nd warrior or a necro for addclear etc. People only know "thats not meta" and thats it.Also the sc meta makes people not think about their classes. They copy the build/traits but dont know what the traits do. And then they are surprised like "oh my skill does now immobilize/reflect/something else as well? Where did that come from?"But the result of this is, that people dont know their classes like they should for raids.

So raiders out there, dont just copy everything from Snowcrows. You and your raid is not like them and will never be, so instead of copying their speedkill meta find out what works for your raid and adjust your raid according to your playstyle.

[Ayrilana.1396]

If players blindly feel that meta is the only way to do content, then it’s on them and not the ones who provide the builds. There will always be meta builds.

Those who want nothing to do with meta builds can always create their own groups and do content with like minded players.

[Seera.5916]

The type of player that will blindly follow a build on a site will blindly follow a build a guildmate or fellow raid member gives them.

They aren't going to bother to deal with the whys to figure out how to adjust when things don't go to plan.

Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding or any other content. They're offering information on the meta build and rotation. What players do with that information is not up to Snowcrows.

[Seera.5916]

@Blumpf.2518 said:In theory yes, but in reality people are stupid and snowcrows should consider this and maybe offer LFG builds and LFG raid setups for the average players.Since they are the meta they have some responsibility and should not, even unintentionally, destroy raiding for average players.

But they're giving meta builds.

There's only one meta build at any given time. Sites that offer other builds for content give meta and other builds are that are close to meta.

You're trying to solve a problem the wrong way. Unfortunately, you can't solve the problem.

Snowcrows could give LFG and meta builds. Players will likely choose the meta build because they want highest DPS. They still won't actually read and understand.

They'll still fail the same way with LFG builds. Because they won't read and understand the whys and whens.

[knite.1542]

Snowcrows isn't doing anything besides providing a tool. You shouldn't try and drag them with this awful thread title.

[ChillyKoti.1928]

There was a guild I knew that all they asked for a DPS player was minimum 10k DPS.

They were aware of all "meta" builds and some of them followed these.

They also prefered people that knows their class very well instead of those that blindly copy pasted cookies cutter builds.

Of course, I am not speaking of LFG here...

Unfortunately, the best way to do these sort of things where everyone allows only speedrunner builds is to have a group of friends.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

Never have I seen ppl in lfg asking SC squad compositions. Just basic comps like 2 chronos, druid, bs, off heal and 5 dps.

[Virdo.1540]

Its not snowcrows, just the damage meter.

[skarpak.8594]

they take their pride in their record runs and simply provide the builds & comps they came up with to the public.their website was never about making lfg pug runs easier. their guides were never about giving the average joe a ezpz to play cookie cutter build where you need exactly 0 brainpower.

it always was about having most optimal comps and builds while challening others to step up their game.

the question is: why do you think they should do some random extra work which does not benefit them in any way. its not like you come up with random stuff just like that and never try it out in content and just put in on the website...and its not like they have to do that in any way to please the public, they could shut down the whole thing and let everyone else just stand in the rain like whatever. it costs a lot of gold & time to make new builds and test them against raids...and pug raids are simply not the domain they play in.

in the end, everyone has to adapt stuff to their own needs. how you can even come up with such a title is beyond me. why is everyone today such a karen.if you see such people arround, rather school them instead of trying to blame shit on something completly random.

@Virdo.1540 said:Its not snowcrows, just the damage meter.

damage meters are just another tool and people descide what to do with it. if groups / guilds are not upfront to anyone joining them, id say the mistake is with the players and not with damage meters. having more information is always better then standing in the dark and not knowing what to do or analyzing some videos for hours to come up with something.without a dps meter and raid logs our group would have just kicked people which are bad instead of trying to find out why something is bad and how to fix it....and it worked out way better the second way.

...and honestly, i really don't care about flaming people in pugs. if players are unable to join a static to do content which takes time commitment, thats on them. there are more then enough groups which search for new people which fit into their profile.

[Cyninja.2954]

That was a very long text to state:"People should think for themselves."

Yes, they should. Unfortunately it is far easier to copy someone elses work instead of do your own. You are basically critcising the person others copy off of, then complain when the teacher call the copier out on the work not believing it is their own (to use a school analogy).

If you don't want to use Snowcrows meta builds, then don't. If you don't want people in your guild/squad to use meta builds from SC, put in the work to have them run different builds. Convincing people to run specific builds is work, so either put in the work or stop complaining.

[Emberheart.8426]

SnowCrows do enough work testing and sharing all of their speedclear builds. It is true that their exact setups will not work best for most of the playerbase, and in my opinion it leads to some pretty baffling balance decisions that are done around optimal speedclear play at times. However, if you want there to be a resource that influences the pug meta and comes up with the easiest way to win encounters for most player, then be the change that you want and help make a website for that with your guild.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Blumpf.2518 said:In theory yes, but in reality people are stupid and snowcrows should consider this and maybe offer LFG builds and LFG raid setups for the average players.

It’s not on them to do this.

Since they are the meta they have some responsibility and should not, even unintentionally, destroy raiding for average players.

They’re not intentionally, or unintentionally, destroying raiding. Thinking that they are just means that you’re failing to understand the issue.

[Only Even.6193]

I can understand your post, but you are pointing your finger toward the wrong offender here.And think about it, a huge part of the gw2 community doesn't want to put that much effort into learning a class, spec, or any gameplay, and so, they will constently ask other players what to do.

Even if Quantify, Snowcrow, or any other guild/site didn't existed in the first place, you can be sure about the fact that all the issues your are pointing out are not solved, if not even worse, at least they have some guides and tips ; (But like any players that don't want to put any effort into learning, they will not read that much, they will just copy/paste it and go full monkey when something goes wrong).

And saying that these guides/sites are the main reasons why some contents can be toxic, is like saying the dps meter should be removed for everyone just because some people are using it wrong, spoiler alert, it's not fair.

Imagine the frustration burning hours theorycrafting and posting your results translated in guides, to help the community just to be accused of destroying a content, you can't say this is right.

Your, and everyone else real issue here is the people that don't want to use their braincells to identify when the meta is not meta anymore, wipping for 4 hours on a single boss you can be sure it's not peak performance.At the end of the day they are doing Meta builds, higher risks if your gameplay is not good enough.So it's basically not their fault if it fails or if some people spits on anything that's not meta.

If you want something to complain about, it's the fact that there is a real lack of Offmeta Sites for Gw2 to clear these contents safely, it's all about speedclearing or wipe/wasting time and guild dramas.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

you can litterly do it with a group of bearbows or minion master necros . just stop using meta and play with what ever you feel like anything can work if you are good enough . meta builds are good for they are builds already proven to work at that point but as balance patches nerfs meta build classes as they should do to change meta (still waiting for druid nerf no class should have 10 might stacking or overpowered passive buffs wich blocks others from joining in like spirits.

[Korneliy.8617]

hello! i know i can not tell you what to do without getting banned, but i will risk it nonethelesstry to look into guides section on SC website, where they actually explain traits and why you should take them, where you should go for more boon duration, when you need extra healer for more average group, and why/where to swap meta traits to offmeta ones. you could open amazing world of diverse raids for yourself if you would do that! :)

[Janitsu.6284]

I wholeheartedly agree. I think it's really nasty how these people are destroying the lfg raiding scene with their evil intentions. Other site that I absolutely DESPISE is the Discrubtize (dT) website. People are not letting me play my celestial druid dps build. Little do they know, I can actually EASILY outdps anyone (if they have gg'd before starting the boss).

Keep up the good fight brotha! ????✌???

[Blocki.4931]

Thanks for the best laugh I had in a while.When you're mad that compositions exist, why don't you just say that? No need for all the fluff you added.

[LukyLuke.8734]

If it was meta speedclear comps and classes only they wouldn't have the necromancer section and healers in general on their site.

[Ooops.8694]

@Blumpf.2518 said:Everyone who is raiding has heard of them. Snowcrows and their website with raidbuilds and recommendations what and how to play in raids.Unfortunately that leads to some problems.Problems like this post when you don't seem to have taken more than a glancing look at this wesite you heard about?@Blumpf.2518 said:Almost everyone in the LFG tool is thinking that this is the "meta" and the only way to play, so the builds are just copied and the raidsetups too.After more than 2k LI/LD never doing anything else than pugging i can honestly say i still wait to see one of those fabled meta setups. Unless of course you suddenly changed your definition of "meta" to a "2 healers + 1 tank, fill with random dps classes while having basic boon uptime"-compositon...@Blumpf.2518 said:What people dont understand is, that snowcrows is a speedkill-guild and not the average random LFG raid. They know how to play their classes, what the bosses do and why and when they use certain traits or skill. Also their DPS is significantly higher that the DPS of the normal GW2 raider, allowing them to skip boss phases or mechanics.[...]BUT the average raid doesnt exist of 10 SC members, instead you will most of the time have people whose DPS is lower, who dont know their classes well, or you have a suboptimal raid composition or people dont know everything about the boss or people just make mistakes.And guess what: They not only know their classes, skills and traits but freely provide all these information for you. So all that keeps you from knowing this too is actually taking a few minutes to read them up. And that significantly higher dps? Well... Just look up the rotation and try it once. It's even there in written and video form, so something for every taste. So why do people not know their classes and do low dps (as you claim)? Because some evil website forced them to use "meta builds" without explaining them or because they can't be bothered to read details already structured and condensed to the essentials for easy digesting or test their rotation for 5 minutes at the training golem?@Blumpf.2518 said:It also happens that CC phases take really long cause people dont use their CC skill or are just spamming all skills instead of saving CC skills.So there isn't a detailed explanation about cc skills and how much breakbar damage each one provides for every single spec? And those aren't repeated on their guides for every single boss with a cc phase again and again? Guess that's on purpose to screw with lfg raiders and destroy raiding... oh wait...@Blumpf.2518 said:All of that will happen in an average or random raid, but the snowcrows meta doesnt consider this. Snowcrows meta is made for a high-dps group that doesnt makes mistakes who is able to skip phases with dps.If all they care for is some highly optimized meta unsuited for the average player why are there guides for every single heal spec, when 1 healdruid for some bosses, no healer for most is meta? Why are they all written from a 2-healer-perspective? Why are there detailed explanation for every reasonable dps spec for (nearly) every single boss (omiting only those "power builds are really bad here, better use a condition build like this" (and vice versa) cases)? Oh, and why are there "if you're lacking the necessary dps here, prepare for ... instead" comments scattered through all guides?@Blumpf.2518 said:As average raid, the sc speedkill meta is nerfing your own raid, because with it, most of the time, boon uptimes are short and heal and cc is not enough. And then people wipe with a normal raid, try again, wipe again and so on.[...]Therefore i highly recommend for everyone who is not interested in speedkills, but just wants to raid to think about this. Bring higher Boondurations into the fight, especially for quickness and Alacrity you want to have 100% boon duration.For what? So you can chill while watching netflix and only have to press one button every few seconds? No, that's a bit harsh. Let's take an objective looks here:How much quickness does a Firebrand provide? (taking firebrand over chrono here because it's easier to calculate without extensive clones created/shattered over time analysis...) 4s every 12s for Mantra of Solace... 2,5s every 12s for Mantra of Potence... 3s every 30s for Feel My Wrath... add alacrity... that's a whopping 85% uptime here, just by using 2 mantras roughly every time they get a charge and pressing your elite once in a while.About 16% boon duration for 100% uptime... Let's add some more as a margin for error and missing some alacrity... so... 20%? Better be sure and take 30%. How could the snowcrows website dare to suggest a build optimized for very short burnphases and only having ... let's take a look... oh... +30% quickness duration.Ohh and btw... while i didn't want to do a complete calculation for chronomancer quickness, i just looked that one up too: "The required Boon Duration varies greatly depending on your personal and your groups skill level. While the recommended value should be sufficient for every encounter, you might still find yourself dropping boons. Don't get discouraged if this happens and simply increase your Boon Duration until you are able to maintain boons reliably. As you gain experience and become more confident, you'll be able to decrease your Boon Duration." It's not even buried in some guide no one reads but right up there at the top of the build page. Yeah, they really do this builds for personal optimized speedruns only with no regard for the average raider suffering from it...(Just to included alacrity too: A renegade traiting righteous rebel has ~70% uptime for the whole squad without boon duration (and as he's the one providing alacrity he does not need to calculate for the possibility up low uptime like the chrono has to for quickness...) and still the suggested build adds ~75% boon duration. Or they plan for 2 condition renegades with no boon duration, each provinding 70% uptime for 10 people. Either way we're talking about 125-140% uptime. That really should be enough margin for mistakes made.)@Blumpf.2518 said:Use Full Tanks (Minstreal Gear) for bosses who deal a lot of damage to the tank.In a venn diagram of bosses with slow attacks/mechanics that needs to be dodged/blocked/parried and bosses with constant hard hitting autoattacks/damage ticks there's about one single guy... or three guys if you count the colored versions he splits into^^ And even there pugs have decided years ago that the damage is irrelevant and you are better off just overhealing the shit out of this encounter than doing the mechanics.But yeah, there are some other bosses with the potential to do high tank damage. Let's take Desmina for example. That ugly hammer can really dish out some mean hits. But what's the difference between losing 90% or 60% of your total health per hit again? If you fail to block two hits in a row without massive heals inbetween you're downed either way.So let's be realistic and talk a moment about why so many people in this game underperform hard and why so many stat combinations in this game are useless. Defensive stats are just bad. Passive defense in Guild Wars 2 was basically dead on arrival, because active defense is just plain better. Adding additonal self heal is just plain better. Even doing more damage and shortening the fight by it is objectively better. In reality +Healing is the redeeming feature of minstrel gear as that much boon duration isn't needed (see above...) and thoughness really doesn't help that much (and scales badly too).If you want to improve you "tankiness" think about your weapon/trait/skill choices. Tanking as a chrono for example... Do i get vigor from my group or do i take dueling for for that Critical Infusion minor and some additional dps? Is it worth it to use a scepter (or even trait it...) for more blocks? Oh, that one actually ups my clone generation by a lot too. So i need even less boon duration to keep up quickness. And going Inspiration with Restorative Illusions/Illusionary Inspiration for a solid amount of selfheal now starts to make sense too...Seriously there are so many ways to divert from the usual meta builds while actually making things easier for you and the whole squad. Taking defensive stats and thinking passive defense spares you from actually doing some work? Not exactly.@Blumpf.2518 said:Have one Healer for each Group with full healing gear.That's actually one of the rare truths here. But as basically every single lfg group already does exactly this, it's not really a helpful suggestion.@Blumpf.2518 said:If the group still takes too much damage, bring a 2nd Banner Warrior and use all 4 Banners. If there are a lot of projectiles, use classes that have projectile reflect/block. If damage to group still is too high, use a 3rd Healer or get hybrid healers into the raid, for example condition necros who take the one big shadow trait. Even with full dps equip they can buff shield to 10 people then.Or the group could maybe just improve and stop to stand in front of the boss and facetank everything instead of staying dumb? There is a reason druids are the to-go healers. and it's not their incredible healing output. It's their ability to bring offensive buffs... The heal output of two full healers is already overkill. If people still die it's because they fail mechanics and no amount short of a 10-healers squad outhealing everything (enrage damage included) will save them if they don't smarten up.@Blumpf.2518 said:Of course Snowcrows dont destroy random raids on intention, but out there are a lot of people for who the snowcrows raid meta is like a religion they have to follow, even if they dont know why.If they don't know why they probably ignored about 90% of the information given on just that one site, like you obvouosly did you make your point.@Blumpf.2518 said:And there are a lot of people out there who dont even accept anything that is not meta, but which would actually help their raid kill a boss. With such people most of the time you will just get flamed or kicked out of the raid if you suggest bringing another healer or a 2nd warrior or a necro for addclear etc. People only know "thats not meta" and thats it.Or maybe suggesting another healer above the 2 already there is just bad and has nothing to do with "not being meta", as the group setup wasn't meta to begin with? On the other hand bringing in a necro for addclear is again something every lfg group does (on those bosses where there are adds that can't be pulled in to cleave them down at least). How many insults had you include with that suggestion to actually get kicked?@Blumpf.2518 said:Also the sc meta makes people not think about their classes. They copy the build/traits but dont know what the traits do. And then they are surprised like "oh my skill does now immobilize/reflect/something else as well? Where did that come from?"But the result of this is, that people dont know their classes like they should for raids.There is a class guide section for every reasonable build, giving an overview and then explaining in detail the class and spec basics (that should be actually be known already), the trait and skill choices, the alternatives, the cc skills... And then they go on by taking a detailed look at every single boss explaining what to change for which reason there and what to look out for.And you tell us they MAKE people not think about their classes? You seriously believe that someone who managed to get to the point where he would like to do raiding without ever thinking about his class/abilities once can be further "damaged" by any information provided? The only thing that happens to such people if they blindly copy/paste a build but had absolutely no clue before is that they now do something right once in a while without even knowing why.

If there's any conclusion from the experience you seem to have while lfg-raiding it's that people who can't be bothered to invest even a single braincell into their gameplay but still think they should be successful in difficult content are toxic for the community. No amount of websites providing builds and guides (or complete lack of such sites) will change that in a meaningful way...

[Antioche.7034]

@"Blumpf.2518" said:Everyone who is raiding has heard of them. Snowcrows and their website with raidbuilds and recommendations what and how to play in raids.Unfortunately that leads to some problems.

Almost everyone in the LFG tool is thinking that this is the "meta" and the only way to play, so the builds are just copied and the raidsetups too.What people dont understand is, that snowcrows is a speedkill-guild and not the average random LFG raid. They know how to play their classes, what the bosses do and why and when they use certain traits or skill. Also their DPS is significantly higher that the DPS of the normal GW2 raider, allowing them to skip boss phases or mechanics.

With shorter phases you need lesser boon duration, less heal or even 1 less healer. You can sacrifice boon uptime and heal for more DPS to make the bosskill even faster.

BUT the average raid doesnt exist of 10 SC members, instead you will most of the time have people whose DPS is lower, who dont know their classes well, or you have a suboptimal raid composition or people dont know everything about the boss or people just make mistakes.And then you have a problem, because boss phases are longer. Boons will disappear because boon duration is bad, group takes more damage because protection is suddenly gone, area damage is ticking all the time and longer as the phase should be or heal is not enough.It also happens that CC phases take really long cause people dont use their CC skill or are just spamming all skills instead of saving CC skills. And then people go down and need to be rezzed and all of that makes the fights even longer.

All of that will happen in an average or random raid, but the snowcrows meta doesnt consider this. Snowcrows meta is made for a high-dps group that doesnt makes mistakes who is able to skip phases with dps.

As average raid, the sc speedkill meta is nerfing your own raid, because with it, most of the time, boon uptimes are short and heal and cc is not enough. And then people wipe with a normal raid, try again, wipe again and so on. But wiping 10 times with a speedkill setup is still slower, than killing the boss safe first or second try with a non speedkill setup were maybe the bossfight is 1-2 minutes longer.

Therefore i highly recommend for everyone who is not interested in speedkills, but just wants to raid to think about this. Bring higher Boondurations into the fight, especially for quickness and Alacrity you want to have 100% boon duration. Use Full Tanks (Minstreal Gear) for bosses who deal a lot of damage to the tank. Have one Healer for each Group with full healing gear. If the group still takes too much damage, bring a 2nd Banner Warrior and use all 4 Banners. If there are a lot of projectiles, use classes that have projectile reflect/block. If damage to group still is too high, use a 3rd Healer or get hybrid healers into the raid, for example condition necros who take the one big shadow trait. Even with full dps equip they can buff shield to 10 people then.And always be prepared to compensate mistakes, because in a normal raid, mistakes will happen. With a speedkill setup a mistake is most of the time a wipe. But if you can compensate it with more heal, higher boonduration, aegis, stability, reflects or whatever there is, you will survive mistakes.

Of course Snowcrows dont destroy random raids on intention, but out there are a lot of people for who the snowcrows raid meta is like a religion they have to follow, even if they dont know why. And there are a lot of people out there who dont even accept anything that is not meta, but which would actually help their raid kill a boss. With such people most of the time you will just get flamed or kicked out of the raid if you suggest bringing another healer or a 2nd warrior or a necro for addclear etc. People only know "thats not meta" and thats it.Also the sc meta makes people not think about their classes. They copy the build/traits but dont know what the traits do. And then they are surprised like "oh my skill does now immobilize/reflect/something else as well? Where did that come from?"But the result of this is, that people dont know their classes like they should for raids.

So raiders out there, dont just copy everything from Snowcrows. You and your raid is not like them and will never be, so instead of copying their speedkill meta find out what works for your raid and adjust your raid according to your playstyle.

Delete SC, and then I certainly hope you'll enjoy all your raids full of minions necros, four healers and trailblazers condi renegades. Also don't expect any boon uptime, to be completly honest.You can make very good groups in LFG, I've pugged fullclears where I insisted on solohealing almost all bosses and it went quite finely. Admittedly it depends of the requirements you do set for joining. Just learn to pick your groups according to what you wish to do.

Stop thinking that most of the playerbase is interested in yolo-ing all the bosses with 7 scourges running rez-traits and some boons. Some people want to play the meta things to actually get better, and you have zero rights of criticizing them. There's something in the middle of 'Speedkills' and 'CompleteBullshitCheeseKills', but apparently only those two exist in your head.

SC is effectively making your life easier. Just join some zero LI requirements groups where everyone runs 'His own build' and maybe you'll realize this.

[cat.8975]

You're acting as if it's some nebulous ordeal to come up with these "meta" builds. It's really not. The trait system in this game makes it hilariously easy to work out which traits are optimal, and after that you only have a few types of gear to consider for the most damage output.

In regards to boon duration, I haven't seen any support builds on their site that rely on super short phases. They're all aimed at permanent boon uptime, so they have enough BD to accomplish that.

One healer is still optimal even on longer fights (as they can heal indefinitely), but it requires everyone to know the fight. It's true that most pugs will run an off-healer, but that doesn't make it meta. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with people running off-healers though.

Most of the issues people have in this game could be solved if they just read what their traits and skills actually do.

[Fueki.4753]

@"Blumpf.2518" said:

Almost everyone in the LFG tool is thinking that this is the "meta" and the only way to play, so the builds are just copied and the raidsetups too.What people dont understand is, that snowcrows is a speedkill-guild and not the average random LFG raid.In regards to LFG raiding, the "average" group is a raid sale anyway.

They know how to play their classes, what the bosses do and why and when they use certain traits or skill.If someone is aiming for raids, this should be a given.

BUT the average raid doesnt exist of 10 SC members, instead you will most of the time have people whose DPS is lower, who dont know their classes well, or you have a suboptimal raid composition or people dont know everything about the boss or people just make mistakes.And then you have a problem, because boss phases are longer. Boons will disappear because boon duration is bad, group takes more damage because protection is suddenly gone, area damage is ticking all the time and longer as the phase should be or heal is not enough.It also happens that CC phases take really long cause people dont use their CC skill or are just spamming all skills instead of saving CC skills. And then people go down and need to be rezzed and all of that makes the fights even longer.All of that will happen in an average or random raid, but the snowcrows meta doesnt consider this. Snowcrows meta is made for a high-dps group that doesnt makes mistakes who is able to skip phases with dps.Nowhere on their side have I found a single mention that their builds are the optimal way to raid for everyone.They simply list their builds.If one blindly copies their builds without understanding them and/or lacking the necessariy skill to pull off that build, it's not Snowcrow's fault.

As average raid, the sc speedkill meta is nerfing your own raid, because with it, most of the time, boon uptimes are short and heal and cc is not enough. And then people wipe with a normal raid, try again, wipe again and so on. But wiping 10 times with a speedkill setup is still slower, than killing the boss safe first or second try with a non speedkill setup were maybe the bossfight is 1-2 minutes longer.

Therefore i highly recommend for everyone who is not interested in speedkills, but just wants to raid to think about this. Bring higher Boondurations into the fight, especially for quickness and Alacrity you want to have 100% boon duration. Use Full Tanks (Minstreal Gear) for bosses who deal a lot of damage to the tank. Have one Healer for each Group with full healing gear. If the group still takes too much damage, bring a 2nd Banner Warrior and use all 4 Banners. If there are a lot of projectiles, use classes that have projectile reflect/block. If damage to group still is too high, use a 3rd Healer or get hybrid healers into the raid, for example condition necros who take the one big shadow trait. Even with full dps equip they can buff shield to 10 people then.And always be prepared to compensate mistakes, because in a normal raid, mistakes will happen. With a speedkill setup a mistake is most of the time a wipe. But if you can compensate it with more heal, higher boonduration, aegis, stability, reflects or whatever there is, you will survive mistakes.And here you are doing the very same as Snowcrow does, albeit less detailed: You are simply listing what you envision as a superior raid composition for your goals.

there are a lot of people for who the snowcrows raid meta is like a religion they have to follow, even if they dont know why. And there are a lot of people out there who dont even accept anything that is not meta, but which would actually help their raid kill a boss.Again, this is not the fault of Snowcrow.

With such people most of the time you will just get flamed or kicked out of the raid if you suggest bringing another healer or a 2nd warrior or a necro for addclear etc. People only know "thats not meta" and thats it.If people get offensive because you suggest trying a different strategy, they aren't worth your time anyway.

Also the sc meta makes people not think about their classes. They copy the build/traits but dont know what the traits do. And then they are surprised like "oh my skill does now immobilize/reflect/something else as well? Where did that come from?"That's a problem that isn't even restricted to raids. You have these people everywhere.

Even if I don't raid myself, I think that Snowcrow did a fantastic work to provide information for those top end players that do want to raid.Instead of blaming Snowcrow, you should put the blame on people who refuse to iterate on said information to fit their capabilities.

[lare.5129]

no one will cry or worry if someone will do guild/friends run with build what you want and kill bosses. welcome..

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

This thread goes right back into why I believe sites like snowcrows need to list two different kinds of metas:

1. The normal speed clear meta designed for players of peak experience who don't make mistakes. You could call this "the elite meta."
2. And then a "safe meta" where the meta is designed for players who do make mistakes, that would gladly DPS a bit slower to be able to clear a raid. It is often that a normal speed clear meta build operating at 100% damage output, can sacrifice about 10% to 15% of that dps value, to literally "double or triple" it's own sustain value, simply by bringing 1 defensive utility + some trait swap to a defensive trait. And then of course the kinds of things can be done which the OP mentioned.

^ If this where to be done, LFGs could list as: "Elite" or "Safe" and players could have different standards within squads, but two different methods to be able to agree upon. It would make the communication of expectations a lot easier. People have said they wanted an easy mode for raids, well this would be the easiest way to achieve it, a community accepted alternative "Safe" meta that players can organize around, who want to play at that pace.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:This thread goes right back into why I believe sites like snowcrows need to list two different kinds of metas:

1. The normal speed clear meta designed for players of peak experience who don't make mistakes. You could call this "the elite meta."
2. And then a "safe meta" where the meta is designed for players who do make mistakes, that would gladly DPS a bit slower to be able to clear a raid. It is often that a normal speed clear meta build operating at 100% damage output, can sacrifice about 10% to 15% of that dps value, to literally "double or triple" it's own sustain value, simply by bringing 1 defensive utility + some trait swap to a defensive trait. And then of course the kinds of things can be done which the OP mentioned.

^ If this where to be done, LFGs could list as: "Elite" or "Safe" and players could have different standards within squads, but two different methods to be able to agree upon. It would make the communication of expectations a lot easier. People have said they wanted an easy mode for raids, well this would be the easiest way to achieve it, a community accepted alternative "Safe" meta that players can organize around, who want to play at that pace.

How about you provide the builds for what you deem to be the “safe meta”.