Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Why SnowCrows is destroying Raiding


Blumpf.2518

Recommended Posts

@Seera.5916 said:

@Seera.5916 said:The type of player that will blindly follow a build on a site will blindly follow a build a guildmate or fellow raid member gives them.

They aren't going to bother to deal with the whys to figure out how to adjust when things don't go to plan.

Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding or any other content. They're offering information on the meta build and rotation. What players do with that information is not up to Snowcrows.

Except it's totally not. Because the game doesn't tell you how to play. So when the only definitive source is a speedkill guild, you get speedkill noob messes.

How is any of that Snowcrows fault?

Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding.

The primary thing destroying it, if it's even being destroyed, is players' lack of willingness to put for the time and effort to learn about the build they are getting and why the choices made were done. This is regardless of whether the build is a speed build or a super safe PUG build.

The second thing you touched on: the game not doing as good of a job as it could in teaching mechanics, especially CC.

They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Seera.5916 said:The type of player that will blindly follow a build on a site will blindly follow a build a guildmate or fellow raid member gives them.

They aren't going to bother to deal with the whys to figure out how to adjust when things don't go to plan.

Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding or any other content. They're offering information on the meta build and rotation. What players do with that information is not up to Snowcrows.

Except it's totally not. Because the game doesn't tell you how to play. So when the only definitive source is a speedkill guild, you get speedkill noob messes.

How is any of that Snowcrows fault?

Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding.

The primary thing destroying it, if it's even being destroyed, is players' lack of willingness to put for the time and effort to learn about the build they are getting and why the choices made were done. This is regardless of whether the build is a speed build or a super safe PUG build.

The second thing you touched on: the game not doing as good of a job as it could in teaching mechanics, especially CC.

They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

They don't have to do anything. They don't have to share the builds that they do. But they choose to share the meta builds that they come up with and provide guides on classes so that players can learn and master them.

Personally, teaching a fault tolerant build is worse than not teaching one. If a player learns that, they've likely learned a lot of bad habits. Like being able to take more hits than they would on the meta build. So they don't get as good as avoiding/blocking the hit. Then when they move up now they're not only having to learn a new rotation, but fail at mechanics they thought they had down.

Players should understand the meta build and then adjust it for their playing preferences/skill while making sure to cover all of the things the meta build provides or being aware of what it lacks so that they can make sure another raid member can pick it up if necessary.

And we, again, go back to the players being the ones who choose to not learn and understand. Then when things can and do go wrong in a PUG situation, they don't know what to use because they don't know their build.

Until you fix the players' desire to learn the builds properly, no amount of fault tolerant builds will actually solve the problem.

You're blaming the wrong source. Its the players' fault that raids are "dying". Not Snowcrows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Snowcrow's site has nothing to do with it ... people were pushing meta and 'destroying' raiding LONG before sites like this were posting builds. If anything, Snowcrow's site and others remove a significant level of ignorance from metapushing. In otherwords ... at least the builds these people are pushing are the CORRECT ones to push.

I really loved the time someone was trying to tell me bowbear ranger was meta ... because there was a video of someone taking hours to solo clear a dungeon with it. ... so no, as much as I hate metapushing, these sites DO an important service to us as players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Seera.5916 said:

@Seera.5916 said:The type of player that will blindly follow a build on a site will blindly follow a build a guildmate or fellow raid member gives them.

They aren't going to bother to deal with the whys to figure out how to adjust when things don't go to plan.

Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding or any other content. They're offering information on the meta build and rotation. What players do with that information is not up to Snowcrows.

Except it's totally not. Because the game doesn't tell you how to play. So when the only definitive source is a speedkill guild, you get speedkill noob messes.

How is any of that Snowcrows fault?

Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding.

The primary thing destroying it, if it's even being destroyed, is players' lack of willingness to put for the time and effort to learn about the build they are getting and why the choices made were done. This is regardless of whether the build is a speed build or a super safe PUG build.

The second thing you touched on: the game not doing as good of a job as it could in teaching mechanics, especially CC.

They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

They don't have to do anything. They don't have to share the builds that they do. But they choose to share the meta builds that they come up with and provide guides on classes so that players can learn and master them.

Personally, teaching a fault tolerant build is worse than not teaching one. If a player learns that, they've likely learned a lot of bad habits. Like being able to take more hits than they would on the meta build. So they don't get as good as avoiding/blocking the hit. Then when they move up now they're not only having to learn a new rotation, but fail at mechanics they thought they had down.

Players should understand the meta build and then adjust it for their playing preferences/skill while making sure to cover all of the things the meta build provides or being aware of what it lacks so that they can make sure another raid member can pick it up if necessary.

And we, again, go back to the players being the ones who choose to not learn and understand. Then when things can and do go wrong in a PUG situation, they don't know what to use because they don't know their build.

Until you fix the players' desire to learn the builds properly, no amount of fault tolerant builds will actually solve the problem.

You're blaming the wrong source. Its the players' fault that raids are "dying". Not Snowcrows.

No, it's not bad to teach someone a fault tolerant build. You've just saved tons of people HOURS of dealing with a bad PuG. O my gosh. i can't believe you just said that. You're right they don't have to teach anyone anything different, but it sure as heck doesn't make raiding more accessible, which is one of the major problems right now. It's definitely not improving things. If Anet wants to force everyone to play like an SC monkey, they could make the HP bars of bosses that much bigger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Seera.5916 said:The type of player that will blindly follow a build on a site will blindly follow a build a guildmate or fellow raid member gives them.

They aren't going to bother to deal with the whys to figure out how to adjust when things don't go to plan.

Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding or any other content. They're offering information on the meta build and rotation. What players do with that information is not up to Snowcrows.

Except it's totally not. Because the game doesn't tell you how to play. So when the only definitive source is a speedkill guild, you get speedkill noob messes.

How is any of that Snowcrows fault?

Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding.

The primary thing destroying it, if it's even being destroyed, is players' lack of willingness to put for the time and effort to learn about the build they are getting and why the choices made were done. This is regardless of whether the build is a speed build or a super safe PUG build.

The second thing you touched on: the game not doing as good of a job as it could in teaching mechanics, especially CC.

They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

They don't have to do anything. They don't have to share the builds that they do. But they choose to share the meta builds that they come up with and provide guides on classes so that players can learn and master them.

Personally, teaching a fault tolerant build is worse than not teaching one. If a player learns that, they've likely learned a lot of bad habits. Like being able to take more hits than they would on the meta build. So they don't get as good as avoiding/blocking the hit. Then when they move up now they're not only having to learn a new rotation, but fail at mechanics they thought they had down.

Players should understand the meta build and then adjust it for their playing preferences/skill while making sure to cover all of the things the meta build provides or being aware of what it lacks so that they can make sure another raid member can pick it up if necessary.

And we, again, go back to the players being the ones who choose to not learn and understand. Then when things can and do go wrong in a PUG situation, they don't know what to use because they don't know their build.

Until you fix the players' desire to learn the builds properly, no amount of fault tolerant builds will actually solve the problem.

You're blaming the wrong source. Its the players' fault that raids are "dying". Not Snowcrows.

No, it's not bad to teach someone a fault tolerant build. You've just saved tons of people HOURS of dealing with a bad PuG. O my gosh. i can't believe you just said that. You're right they don't have to teach anyone anything different, but it sure as heck doesn't make raiding more accessible, which is one of the major problems right now. It's definitely not improving things. If Anet wants to force everyone to play like an SC monkey, they could make the HP bars of bosses that much bigger.

And again, you've failed to realize the actual problem.

The player has to want to learn. Most players that make a bad PUG experience don't want to learn. They want to be handed a magical build that will work perfectly no matter what they do. They think just copying and pasting a build will make them suddenly masters of their class.

No amount of fault tolerant builds will fix that. They may just not die as much, but at what cost to the content in the long run? Players that learn bad habits. Groups with players that still fail at the fault tolerant builds may find themselves not doing enough DPS for DPS checks if too many are running fault tolerant builds - even if most aren't failing at it. The lack of pressure to improve due to challenge.

The problem will still exist.

Why would you assume someone is so stupid that they can't learn the meta build? Learning the meta build does not mean that that's the build they run in the end or that even run at all. Once they learn the build, they can adjust to fit their limitations and will understand what they need to tell a group they join that they'll need to be able to provide.

Why would you want someone to only learn a build that will just promote bad habits? If they aren't taught the meta build, they won't understand what their margin of error is. They'll be under a false sense of security.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Blumpf.2518" said:Everyone who is raiding has heard of them. Snowcrows and their website with raidbuilds and recommendations what and how to play in raids.Unfortunately that leads to some problems.

Almost everyone in the LFG tool is thinking that this is the "meta" and the only way to play, so the builds are just copied and the raidsetups too.What people dont understand is, that snowcrows is a speedkill-guild and not the average random LFG raid. They know how to play their classes, what the bosses do and why and when they use certain traits or skill. Also their DPS is significantly higher that the DPS of the normal GW2 raider, allowing them to skip boss phases or mechanics.

With shorter phases you need lesser boon duration, less heal or even 1 less healer. You can sacrifice boon uptime and heal for more DPS to make the bosskill even faster.

BUT the average raid doesnt exist of 10 SC members, instead you will most of the time have people whose DPS is lower, who dont know their classes well, or you have a suboptimal raid composition or people dont know everything about the boss or people just make mistakes.And then you have a problem, because boss phases are longer. Boons will disappear because boon duration is bad, group takes more damage because protection is suddenly gone, area damage is ticking all the time and longer as the phase should be or heal is not enough.It also happens that CC phases take really long cause people dont use their CC skill or are just spamming all skills instead of saving CC skills. And then people go down and need to be rezzed and all of that makes the fights even longer.

All of that will happen in an average or random raid, but the snowcrows meta doesnt consider this. Snowcrows meta is made for a high-dps group that doesnt makes mistakes who is able to skip phases with dps.

As average raid, the sc speedkill meta is nerfing your own raid, because with it, most of the time, boon uptimes are short and heal and cc is not enough. And then people wipe with a normal raid, try again, wipe again and so on. But wiping 10 times with a speedkill setup is still slower, than killing the boss safe first or second try with a non speedkill setup were maybe the bossfight is 1-2 minutes longer.

Therefore i highly recommend for everyone who is not interested in speedkills, but just wants to raid to think about this. Bring higher Boondurations into the fight, especially for quickness and Alacrity you want to have 100% boon duration. Use Full Tanks (Minstreal Gear) for bosses who deal a lot of damage to the tank. Have one Healer for each Group with full healing gear. If the group still takes too much damage, bring a 2nd Banner Warrior and use all 4 Banners. If there are a lot of projectiles, use classes that have projectile reflect/block. If damage to group still is too high, use a 3rd Healer or get hybrid healers into the raid, for example condition necros who take the one big shadow trait. Even with full dps equip they can buff shield to 10 people then.And always be prepared to compensate mistakes, because in a normal raid, mistakes will happen. With a speedkill setup a mistake is most of the time a wipe. But if you can compensate it with more heal, higher boonduration, aegis, stability, reflects or whatever there is, you will survive mistakes.

Of course Snowcrows dont destroy random raids on intention, but out there are a lot of people for who the snowcrows raid meta is like a religion they have to follow, even if they dont know why. And there are a lot of people out there who dont even accept anything that is not meta, but which would actually help their raid kill a boss. With such people most of the time you will just get flamed or kicked out of the raid if you suggest bringing another healer or a 2nd warrior or a necro for addclear etc. People only know "thats not meta" and thats it.Also the sc meta makes people not think about their classes. They copy the build/traits but dont know what the traits do. And then they are surprised like "oh my skill does now immobilize/reflect/something else as well? Where did that come from?"But the result of this is, that people dont know their classes like they should for raids.

So raiders out there, dont just copy everything from Snowcrows. You and your raid is not like them and will never be, so instead of copying their speedkill meta find out what works for your raid and adjust your raid according to your playstyle.

I think your thread title is intentionally click-bait and a disrespect to the team @ Snowcrows who have provided the information freely to those interested.You state that you acknowledge "Snowcrows don't destroy random raids on intention"

I think it would be fair to change the thread title

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough. The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough.
The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

But hey, whatever makes you feel special and prevents you from getting more of this game mode you supposedly love, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough.
The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

But those players who were just handed those safer comps were hurt unless the trainers took time to make sure they understood the reasons why they chose certain traits and skills over others.

Snowcrows aren't aiming at just clearing. They're aiming at the meta. The meta will more than just clear content.

And no one is saying that a majority of players don't want to learn. Just that bad PUG's tend to have these players in them. Because to me, even if a group doesn't clear the content before the group disbands, if improvements were made, then that's a win. The next group they get into they'll be able to take that improvement and improve further and maybe clear it the next time. And no amount of giving them builds or spending time with them is going to change them. They have to change for themselves.

Your getting on a site who has no part of this problem. You think giving out fault tolerant builds will help but it's just a crutch and many will rely on that crutch too much and be more harmed than helped by it. They won't strive to improve to not needing the fault tolerant build. Key word being strive, some people may just not be able to improve enough given their own limitations at a specific time.

Players should learn the meta and then back it down to just the level that works for them. Not start at the most tolerant and work towards meta. That's just a recipe for bad habits being learned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another Problem with the SC Website is, that though there is Information, what people actually do in reality is:

  • Lookup if Boss is a Power or Condi Boss
  • Lookup what Class is recommended for that Boss
  • Lookup the max DPS build for that class
  • ignore everything else

A simple fix would be to recommend not the max dps class/build on their site, but something thats better suited for LFG groups. Something like:

Boss: Wing X Boss YRecommended Class / Build for LFG: A safer group supporting build with maybe 90-95% of max possible DPSRecommended Class / Build for Speedkills: A high-risk-high-reward, but squishy ego build with low group support

And the safer builds are not bad or completely useless, their max dps output is just a bit lower than the meta builds.We're talking here about if the max dps meta build can deal 35k dps at the golem, than a safer build is still able to deal about 32k or so. And under realistic circumstances at a real bossfight the dps diffrence between a meta build and a safer build is even lower.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Seera.5916 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough.
The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

But those players who were just handed those safer comps were hurt unless the trainers took time to make sure they understood the reasons why they chose certain traits and skills over others.

Snowcrows aren't aiming at just clearing. They're aiming at the meta. The meta will more than just clear content.

And no one is saying that a majority of players don't want to learn. Just that bad PUG's tend to have these players in them. Because to me, even if a group doesn't clear the content before the group disbands, if improvements were made, then that's a win. The next group they get into they'll be able to take that improvement and improve further and maybe clear it the next time. And no amount of giving them builds or spending time with them is going to change them. They have to change for themselves.

Your getting on a site who has no part of this problem. You think giving out fault tolerant builds will help but it's just a crutch and many will rely on that crutch too much and be more harmed than helped by it
. They won't strive to improve to not needing the fault tolerant build. Key word being strive, some people may just not be able to improve enough given their own limitations at a specific time.

Players should learn the meta and then back it down to just the level that works for them. Not start at the most tolerant and work towards meta. That's just a recipe for bad habits being learned.

I disagree. There's nothing wrong with telling Chronos not to use CS on SH and/or taking extra alac with a ren. It's just plain sense when you have so many instant death mechanics running around that you want one less thing to have to manage before you react to it. This, arrogant elitism you just displayed is exactly the problem.

"Let's make this as hard as we possibly can and then treat people like idiots if they don't want to do that".and"Let's waste hours of our time learning it"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What Seera.5916 basically said is: "If you want to learn how to drive a car, go to the formula 1 racing track first and learn how to drive that highspeed car that can get people killed. And once you are able to do that, slow down to the level that works for you and drive your Toyota at the speed that you want."Which is of course total bullkitten.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Firebeard.1746" said:They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

Why should Snow Crows be take responsibility for the actions of other people, that have nothing to do with them?They only provide information. What other people do with that information doesn't fall into Snow Crows' territory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough.
The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

But those players who were just handed those safer comps were hurt unless the trainers took time to make sure they understood the reasons why they chose certain traits and skills over others.

Snowcrows aren't aiming at just clearing. They're aiming at the meta. The meta will more than just clear content.

And no one is saying that a majority of players don't want to learn. Just that bad PUG's tend to have these players in them. Because to me, even if a group doesn't clear the content before the group disbands, if improvements were made, then that's a win. The next group they get into they'll be able to take that improvement and improve further and maybe clear it the next time. And no amount of giving them builds or spending time with them is going to change them. They have to change for themselves.

Your getting on a site who has no part of this problem. You think giving out fault tolerant builds will help but it's just a crutch and many will rely on that crutch too much and be more harmed than helped by it
. They won't strive to improve to not needing the fault tolerant build. Key word being strive, some people may just not be able to improve enough given their own limitations at a specific time.

Players should learn the meta and then back it down to just the level that works for them. Not start at the most tolerant and work towards meta. That's just a recipe for bad habits being learned.

I disagree. There's nothing wrong with telling Chronos not to use CS on SH and/or taking extra alac with a ren. It's just plain sense when you have so many instant death mechanics running around that you want one less thing to have to manage before you react to it. This, arrogant elitism you just displayed is exactly the problem.

"Let's make this as hard as we possibly can and then treat people like idiots if they don't want to do that".and"Let's waste hours of our time learning it"

Again you are MISSING THE POINT.

Telling someone to do X doesn't help them.

Reminds me of a saying that I'm paraphrasing: Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for life.

You're suggesting we just give people fish.

I'm saying we teach people the meta: even if it's just verbal or read off of a site. Here's the meta, here's why. If people know the whys, they can adjust the build to their current skill level. You can go: "It's meta for elementalists to use the conjured weapons because they have the highest DPS skills, but you can swap to X if you don't like the conjured weapons. You'll just need to make sure your group can provide X if the boss manages to go into Y phase due to the drop in DPS."

And no where did I say the first. I never once stated that anyone was an idiot if they didn't want to do something.

And since when is time wasted if you're learning something? I'd rather spend 3 hours failing something and learning why than succeed on something the first try. Because we actually learn more from failing than succeeding. If we want to.

It's just too many people are focused on the rewards and not actually learning. And part of that is on ANet for not doing a better job at getting players to learn basic mechanics like CC and combo fields.

And by the way: I've never raided (hence the lack of a proper example above). I fall into the group of people who doesn't feel like learning their class well enough. No amount of fault tolerant builds are going to change that or make me clear something easier. Fault tolerant builds sacrifice DPS for survivability. You trade extra time due to wipes to extra time due to DPS. When the former can be reduced through learning, but the former can't be reduced because max DPS of a build is max DPS of a build.

I haven't raided because I don't want to be that one player that drags down the group because I can't get my act together and learn my class. So I'm looking at this from the aspect of the people you think Snowcrows is causing a problem for. When I know full well what my problem is: it's not the lack of builds that fit my skill level, it's my lack of desire to learn my class.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Firebeard.1746" said:They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

Why should Snow Crows be take responsibility for the actions of other people, that have nothing to do with them?They only provide information. What other people do with that information doesn't fall into Snow Crows' territory.

They can do what they want. But they're not getting a cent from me until they actually start caring about helping normal people clear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Seera.5916 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough.
The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

But those players who were just handed those safer comps were hurt unless the trainers took time to make sure they understood the reasons why they chose certain traits and skills over others.

Snowcrows aren't aiming at just clearing. They're aiming at the meta. The meta will more than just clear content.

And no one is saying that a majority of players don't want to learn. Just that bad PUG's tend to have these players in them. Because to me, even if a group doesn't clear the content before the group disbands, if improvements were made, then that's a win. The next group they get into they'll be able to take that improvement and improve further and maybe clear it the next time. And no amount of giving them builds or spending time with them is going to change them. They have to change for themselves.

Your getting on a site who has no part of this problem. You think giving out fault tolerant builds will help but it's just a crutch and many will rely on that crutch too much and be more harmed than helped by it
. They won't strive to improve to not needing the fault tolerant build. Key word being strive, some people may just not be able to improve enough given their own limitations at a specific time.

Players should learn the meta and then back it down to just the level that works for them. Not start at the most tolerant and work towards meta. That's just a recipe for bad habits being learned.

I disagree. There's nothing wrong with telling Chronos not to use CS on SH and/or taking extra alac with a ren. It's just plain sense when you have so many instant death mechanics running around that you want one less thing to have to manage before you react to it. This, arrogant elitism you just displayed is exactly the problem.

"Let's make this as hard as we possibly can and then treat people like idiots if they don't want to do that".and"Let's waste hours of our time learning it"

Again you are MISSING THE POINT.

Telling someone to do X doesn't help them.

Reminds me of a saying that I'm paraphrasing: Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for life.

You're suggesting we just give people fish.

I'm saying we teach people the meta: even if it's just verbal or read off of a site. Here's the meta, here's why. If people know the whys, they can adjust the build to their current skill level. You can go: "It's meta for elementalists to use the conjured weapons because they have the highest DPS skills, but you can swap to X if you don't like the conjured weapons. You'll just need to make sure your group can provide X if the boss manages to go into Y phase due to the drop in DPS."

And no where did I say the first. I never once stated that anyone was an idiot if they didn't want to do something.

And since when is time wasted if you're learning something? I'd rather spend 3 hours failing something and learning why than succeed on something the first try. Because we actually learn more from failing than succeeding. If we want to.

I'm not claiming that it's wasted time. I'm claiming not adjusting strategy when it makes sense is. Your wording implies that it's cutting other people off from an opportunity. You're also claiming it's handing out freebies, nothing about raiding in this game is a freebie. You can still fail SH on a more fault tolerant strategy. You're totally taking me and the OP the wrong way. Raiding in this game is hard. With or without a strategy because of the mechanics. The idiot thing is implicit: you're basically assuming people who don't want to do things the hard way are bad or stupid.

It's just too many people are focused on the rewards and not actually learning. And part of that is on ANet for not doing a better job at getting players to learn basic mechanics like CC and combo fields.

And by the way: I've never raided (hence the lack of a proper example above). I fall into the group of people who doesn't feel like learning their class well enough. No amount of fault tolerant builds are going to change that or make me clear something easier. Fault tolerant builds sacrifice DPS for survivability. You trade extra time due to wipes to extra time due to DPS. When the former can be reduced through learning, but the former can't be reduced because max DPS of a build is max DPS of a build.

If you never raided then why are you arguing with people who have about something you don't understand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough.
The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

But those players who were just handed those safer comps were hurt unless the trainers took time to make sure they understood the reasons why they chose certain traits and skills over others.

Snowcrows aren't aiming at just clearing. They're aiming at the meta. The meta will more than just clear content.

And no one is saying that a majority of players don't want to learn. Just that bad PUG's tend to have these players in them. Because to me, even if a group doesn't clear the content before the group disbands, if improvements were made, then that's a win. The next group they get into they'll be able to take that improvement and improve further and maybe clear it the next time. And no amount of giving them builds or spending time with them is going to change them. They have to change for themselves.

Your getting on a site who has no part of this problem. You think giving out fault tolerant builds will help but it's just a crutch and many will rely on that crutch too much and be more harmed than helped by it
. They won't strive to improve to not needing the fault tolerant build. Key word being strive, some people may just not be able to improve enough given their own limitations at a specific time.

Players should learn the meta and then back it down to just the level that works for them. Not start at the most tolerant and work towards meta. That's just a recipe for bad habits being learned.

I disagree. There's nothing wrong with telling Chronos not to use CS on SH and/or taking extra alac with a ren. It's just plain sense when you have so many instant death mechanics running around that you want one less thing to have to manage before you react to it. This, arrogant elitism you just displayed is exactly the problem.

"Let's make this as hard as we possibly can and then treat people like idiots if they don't want to do that".and"Let's waste hours of our time learning it"

Again you are MISSING THE POINT.

Telling someone to do X doesn't help them.

Reminds me of a saying that I'm paraphrasing: Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for life.

You're suggesting we just give people fish.

I'm saying we teach people the meta: even if it's just verbal or read off of a site. Here's the meta, here's why. If people know the whys, they can adjust the build to their current skill level. You can go: "It's meta for elementalists to use the conjured weapons because they have the highest DPS skills, but you can swap to X if you don't like the conjured weapons. You'll just need to make sure your group can provide X if the boss manages to go into Y phase due to the drop in DPS."

And no where did I say the first. I never once stated that anyone was an idiot if they didn't want to do something.

And since when is time wasted if you're learning something? I'd rather spend 3 hours failing something and learning why than succeed on something the first try. Because we actually learn more from failing than succeeding. If we want to.

I'm not claiming that it's wasted time. I'm claiming not adjusting strategy when it makes sense is. Your wording implies that it's cutting other people off from an opportunity. You're also claiming it's handing out freebies, nothing about raiding in this game is a freebie. You can still fail SH on a more fault tolerant strategy. You're totally taking me and the OP the wrong way. Raiding in this game is hard. With or without a strategy because of the mechanics. The idiot thing is implicit: you're basically assuming people who don't want to do things the hard way are bad or stupid.

It's just too many people are focused on the rewards and not actually learning. And part of that is on ANet for not doing a better job at getting players to learn basic mechanics like CC and combo fields.

And by the way: I've never raided (hence the lack of a proper example above). I fall into the group of people who doesn't feel like learning their class well enough. No amount of fault tolerant builds are going to change that or make me clear something easier. Fault tolerant builds sacrifice DPS for survivability. You trade extra time due to wipes to extra time due to DPS. When the former can be reduced through learning, but the former can't be reduced because max DPS of a build is max DPS of a build.

If you never raided then why are you arguing with people who have about something you don't understand.

I perfectly understand what you and the OP are claiming. That it's Snowcrows fault at why people aren't successful at raiding.

The thing is, just giving people a safer build handicaps them more than it helps them in the long run.

If they don't understand the meta and why the meta is what it is and what difference their build has from the meta, then they'll be in trouble when they get to their next group on that build. They won't know to tell them that they've sacrificed X skill for survivability. Then that new group doesn't know that they need to make sure they account for the loss of what that skill would have brought to the table. And what the skill the player does have brings to the table.

This doesn't mean having the player play the meta build. Just learn it and understand it. So that they know why their build doesn't meet meta. So that they can tell groups they join about what they don't bring to table and what they do compared to the meta. So that the other players can adjust accordingly.

Which again goes back to the player wanting to learn being the key point. You can go over a meta build or a safe build, but if a player doesn't want to learn it then you might as well have let them randomly choose their traits and skills. Because going up against a training dummy is one thing, but start applying that to an actual boss that does mechanics and rotations get thrown off even for players who are skilled. Its just the skilled players know better when and how to adjust their rotation to account for the mechanics to get back to the max DPS rotation as quickly as possible. And it takes some desire to get past the initial while it takes to get the muscle memory for the new build and learn a boss and the mechanics.

I don't need to raid to know that Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding by not offering safer builds.

I'm very literal. If I don't say it explicitly, I probably don't mean it that way. I say what I mean. I'm definitely not saying or even implying that if someone doesn't want to play meta that they're an idiot. Or I'd be calling myself an idiot. I main ele and hate conjured weapons. My current build doesn't have a conjured weapon on it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough.
The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

That was an example, you seem to have not understood it:

The complaint of this thread is: Snowcrows caters only to the elite players and should provide other builds as well.

That complaint is untrue, easily dis-proven by people who actually took their time to READ through the provided material and what is made available. The guides make extensive recommendations as to how to make life easier on one self.

The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

No one is going to do the thinking for you.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

But hey, whatever makes you feel special and prevents you from getting more of this game mode you supposedly love, right?

So what you are telling me: individual players make changes to their compositions or run content differently depending on how they deem it necessary or comfortable. Likely on builds from SC or other players btw, but let's omit that fact. Yes, I agree. As mentioned by me earlier: people should be less of tools and think for themselves.

That's not me being special. That's me not being a tool and criticizing the free flow of information. It's almost like everything by now needs a disclaimer: DON'T BE AN IDIOT AND CARE WITH HOW YOU USE THIS INFORMATION!

@Firebeard.1746 said:

It's just too many people are focused on the rewards and not actually learning. And part of that is on ANet for not doing a better job at getting players to learn basic mechanics like CC and combo fields.

And by the way: I've never raided (hence the lack of a proper example above). I fall into the group of people who doesn't feel like learning their class well enough. No amount of fault tolerant builds are going to change that or make me clear something easier. Fault tolerant builds sacrifice DPS for survivability. You trade extra time due to wipes to extra time due to DPS. When the former can be reduced through learning, but the former can't be reduced because max DPS of a build is max DPS of a build.

If you never raided then why are you arguing with people who have about something you don't understand.

I love it. You went full circle. Man I wish I was bored enough to look up some of the responses YOU got before you got your first raid kills (btw by your own account after finally joining a decent training group with good commander. Let's blame those players for not taking MORE of their time and training MORE people. They could obviously do it, they are just to lazy to. Its their fault not enough people get into raiding!). The prime example of what toxicity looks like once one is "in the group". Wow, I could not have shown this better off. Thank you. I hope the irony of your approach is not lost on you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

I love it. You went full circle. Man I wish I was bored enough to look up some of the responses YOU got before you got your first raid kills. The prime example of what toxicity looks like once one is "in the group". Wow, I could not have shown this better off. Thank you.

Actually I never posted here about raiding before raiding first. So no. people were saying I was inexperienced because I only did a few bosses. My thoughts on the community haven't changed much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Cyninja.2954" said:The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/Heal scourge is not meta.https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/Power Reaper is not meta.https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...