Lich form to prevent application of boons other than stability.

[Arheundel.6451]

@"KrHome.1920" said:We are witnessing the result of an evolution that has been obvious for everyne that actually understands the necro class.

Necro has always been an immobile profession. I did always say just give it more mobility! Everything else is problematic in the long term.

What happened instead:

• the game got a lot more overal pacing, which left necro behind
• anet designed aoe for scourge, which was highly problematic in terms of scaling but solved nothing in small scale
• anet buffed the damage for reaper, which solved nothing because the spec was too slow
• anet buffed the tankyness for core, which solved nothing because the spec dealt not enough damage
• anet added quickness for reaper and then for core too
• now we have a tanky quickness mess for core and a bursty quickness mess for reaper (scourge is just an overall mess)

They could just have left everything like it has been in HoT, but increase the pve damage multipliers and make wurm instant cast.

Fun Fact: It's not just lich. Quickness wurm cast and speed rune spectral walk are also broken now, which has never been intended. That's the most laughable part. Oh no wait, we are still hardcountered by thieves... that is it.

All these busted traits are designed to remove any kind of stat weakness a pure glass cannon could suffer from:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Perceptionhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Onslaught

No Pre-requirement ...just press F1 to get all the goodies , close 40% crit chance and 200% crit dmg from base level and if we compare this to ele with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elements_of_Rage which was nerfed while giving far less ferocity than current Necro traits, even if used in conjunction with the Air traitline sacrificing sustain in the process....

[Brimstone Jack.3462]

@Smoosh.2718 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

• War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
• Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
• Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
• Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
• Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
• Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
• Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
• Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
• Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

I'll add this disclaimer again:

TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

*this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)"DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

[Oakendale.2849]

To clarify - the cliff note version of the original posters topic is:

I don’t feel that I should have to move when being focused by an elite ability with a large cool down.

And just when I thought the nerf posts couldn’t get any more silly, someone always surprises me..........

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Smoosh.2718 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

• War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
• Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
• Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
• Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
• Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
• Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
• Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
• Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
• Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

I'll add this disclaimer again:

TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

*this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)"DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

[Yasai.3549]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:uh, or they could get rid of the quickness pulses. instead of gutting lich. just a thought. that trait regardless of lich or not is bad for the game anyway.

Honestly now that we have Dread GM trait from Spite, we do not need Reaper's Onslaught to pulse Quickness anymore.If Quickness from Reaper's Onslaught were to go, people in PvE won't miss it either.

[Brimstone Jack.3462]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Smoosh.2718 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

• War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
• Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
• Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
• Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
• Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
• Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
• Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
• Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
• Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

I'll add this disclaimer again:

TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

*this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)"DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Smoosh.2718 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

• War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
• Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
• Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
• Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
• Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
• Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
• Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
• Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
• Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

I'll add this disclaimer again:

TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

*this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)"DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

Lich form isn't a build.

[Oakendale.2849]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Smoosh.2718 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

• War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
• Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
• Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
• Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
• Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
• Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
• Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
• Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
• Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

I'll add this disclaimer again:

TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

*this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)"DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

Lich form isn't a build.

It’s a specific Gm talent that is based off a power build.

Once again this talent has so much counter play already it isn’t even funny.

The entire ideology of the op is a large reason why this game mode has gotten so stale.

There is a huge lack of build diversity already in this game mode and posts like these just further that problem......

[Brimstone Jack.3462]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Smoosh.2718 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

• War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
• Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
• Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
• Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
• Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
• Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
• Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
• Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
• Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

I'll add this disclaimer again:

TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

*this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)"DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

Lich form isn't a build.

I'm not sure if you're trying to deliberately miss the point here.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Azreell.1568 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Smoosh.2718 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

• War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
• Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
• Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
• Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
• Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
• Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
• Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
• Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
• Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

I'll add this disclaimer again:

TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

*this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)"DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

Lich form isn't a build.

It’s a specific Gm talent that is based off a power build.

Once again this talent has so much counter play already it isn’t even funny.

The entire ideology of the op is a large reason why this game mode has gotten so stale.

There is a huge lack of build diversity already in this game mode and posts like these just further that problem......

One of the reasons build diversity is such trash is because of things like Lich form. The other options are either bad or just wildly inferior, making them mandatory, and because of this opposing builds have to bring specific tools at all times to deal with it or risk it running over their team. This turns the extremely powerful tool that's being countered useless and it becomes the same song and dance every time: Lich Form - Projectile Block = Wasted Elite, or Lich Form - No Projectile Block = Dead Team.

Build diversity would improve dramatically if so much stuff wasn't hard countered by so much else and rendered useless. This would also mean the things being countered have no excuse to be absolutely busted in the situations they aren't made useless. We have a much longer list of useless or unviable skills vs good and viable ones. Sometimes it's bad design, more often it's the better skills invalidating all else

[Brimstone Jack.3462]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Azreell.1568 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Smoosh.2718 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

• War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
• Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
• Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
• Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
• Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
• Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
• Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
• Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
• Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

I'll add this disclaimer again:

TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

*this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)"DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

Lich form isn't a build.

It’s a specific Gm talent that is based off a power build.

Once again this talent has so much counter play already it isn’t even funny.

The entire ideology of the op is a large reason why this game mode has gotten so stale.

There is a huge lack of build diversity already in this game mode and posts like these just further that problem......

One of the reasons build diversity is such trash is because of things like Lich form. The other options are either bad or just wildly inferior, making them mandatory, and because of this opposing builds have to bring specific tools at all times to deal with it or risk it running over their team. This turns the extremely powerful tool that's being countered useless and it becomes the same song and dance every time: Lich Form - Projectile Block = Wasted Elite, or Lich Form - No Projectile Block = Dead Team.

Build diversity would improve

dramatically

if so much stuff wasn't hard countered by so much else and rendered useless. This would also mean the things being countered have no excuse to be absolutely busted in the situations they aren't made useless. We have a much longer list of useless or unviable skills vs good and viable ones. Sometimes it's bad design, more often it's the better skills invalidating all else

It really boils down to whether you prefer the rock-paper-scissors approach to balance or the everybody-fares-the-same-against-everybody approach. There's merit in both options. I just prefer the former.

[Nimon.7840]

Problem I have with this. That if you need lich further, to an extend, that it's not doing that much damage anymore. What options does necro have left as elite skills?They are all pretty much useless. Sure reaper could use the shout, but what about core necro? If I feel like playing power core.

Pros and cons of lich:-High cooldown (150seconds) skill that lasts for 10 seconds.+Autoattacks that deal a lot of damage,-but can extremely easily be reflected (resulting in necro killing itself)-Attacks can easily be dodged by using line of sight-When going into lich necro looses all access to defensive abilities.-Only gets pulsing stab, which is applied every 3 seconds.

So lich is only taken because of the dmg output. Nerfing it to mediocre dmg would make it an absolutely useless skill.

Problem is that all necro elites besides of lich are pretty much useless right now (for power builds).

Also necro would loose a lot of damage, if lich was nerfed to the ground like some people want it to.Would you give necro any compensation? (Out of shroud damage)

I think reworking the elite would be a lot better than nerfing it.

If you would just nerf it, you'd have to nerf a lot of other skills as well, that have a lot less counterplay than lich form (for example steal mechanic from thief. Instant cast teleport that doesn't need LoS , that has a lot of strong effects (at least when traited). Basically no counterplay available other than random dodges.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Azreell.1568 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Smoosh.2718 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:There are so many counters to Lich, it's a player's own fault for not using them. Well, on most classes anyway. Let's take a look realistically at who should be having problems with Lich and who shouldn't.

• War - Enormous mobility to leave the Lich and LOS as freely as the War wishes. Standard Spellbreaker builds also have block and full counter on hand, along with 50% of their weapon skills & utilities being CCs to be able to break through the pulsing stab and stun the lich. The War can even have reflect on its shield to make the Lich hit itself. I don't see the problem here with War vs. Lich.
• Guard - Usually not situated well for escape to LOS so it does end up often needing to tank Lich. However Guard has so so many blocks and an invuln. It also has enough damage to burst and down a Lich before he's even 3 or 4 auto casts in on the Guard. I dunno guys, the Guard's focus is 3x blocks and a single pop of f3 is a 4th block. The shield 4 is another aegis, the shield 5 is a reflect, and then Guard has invuln. Then if we're talking DH with f3 shield of courage, the blocking thickens, and if we're talking FB, the sheer amount of reflect bubbles just becomes overwhelming. I don't understand how a Guard isn't able to deal with Lich for 10s, unless the Lich is +ing him and creating a 2v1 against the Guard.
• Rev - So many sources to deal with 10s ranged auto spam, including heal when hit, reflects, massive CC, evading while attacking, and pop Impossible Odds to get out and get to LOS. The Rev shouldn't be dying to Lich. At least not in a 1v1 situation.
• Engi - Flashbang blind & auto passive CC in conjunction with all of the other CCs to stun the Lich. Lots of bubbles, lots of blockings, randomly stealth, randomly Moa elixir, lots and lots of damage, Flashbang, invuln, more Flashbang, strong mobility to get to LOS. The Engi shouldn't be dying to Lich unless he's getting +d by the Lich.
• Thief - "I can outrun a centaur!!" comes to mind here. Why would you stay near the Lich when it goes into Lich? Just instantly teleport half way across the map to safety. Oh and also, stealth and more stealth and even more stealth. Dying to a Lich as a Thief is kind of potato. Sure, the Lich may surprise you, but that's your own fault as the Thief player who stayed in combat too long bottoming out his init & CDs when he didn't have any escape left to play on.
• Ranger - Stealth LB3, Evade GS3, Block GS4, Evade LR, even more evades with weird sword/dagger builds, lots of mobility to quickly peel to LOS, plenty of CC that can be used to stun the Lich. Oh and by the way, why is the Necromancer alive to be able to Lich you if you are a LB Ranger? Even Druid builds have sources of reflect to play on. Ranger on 9/10 builds ran has everything it needs to defense play through a 10s Lich.
• Mes - Pretty much same conclusion as Thief. GET OUT when it Liches. If you don't, that's your own fault. Your mobility & stealth & detargeting is in-design for a reason, use it. Mes also has the elite that super hard counters Lich, Signet Of Humility.
• Necro - Mirror so no need to go into detail here. May the biggest Lich win.
• Ele - Tempest & Weaver are very seriously the hardest targets in the game to hit with ranged attacks. Nothing more needs to be said.

I feel like "Lich is OP" complaints are stemming from a place of frustration more than anything else. People know Lich is easy to play around, and that makes it extra frustrating when they aren't paying attention and end up dying to it. <- I've been talking about this for years now, and it is every bit the same effect that things like Ranger burst or Pistol/Pistol Thief or Rifle Deadeye has. These ranged attacks feel frustrating and OP at bell curve & bellow, but at higher tiered margins these ranged attacks are actually difficult to land effectively against stronger players because the stronger plays know all of the easy things they can do to completely avoid such slow immobile telegraphs.

A bit of advice: When you fight a Necromancer, assume that Lich is going to happen and begin preparing for it early. Try that out for a day or two, and then come back into this thread and tell us all how OP Lich is.

With this logic, give me the old damage on rampage, since you can run away or line of sight it. (There is a reason I had the disclaimer on this topic for this kind of post).

Lich form is very easy to cheese, I have also seen a huge number of players abusing the Ripple of Horror into Deathly Claws while under quickness. Skills should not be in the game which have insane damage procs. I completely dissagree with the design of giving a win button to classes (like the oldschool rampage was (10k homing throw rock crits)).

I'll add this disclaimer again:

TOPIC DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT AN INVITE FOR PEOPLE TO POST 'LINE OF SIGHT THEM' OR 'ITS EASY TO COUNTER' *

*this skill is beyond defending in its current state (same with a few one trick ponies that are still in the game)"DON'T MENTION ANY OF THE MILLION THINGS THAT COUNTER OR NEUTRALIZE LICH, DANGIT! IT'S DAMNING TO MY BASELESS ASSERTION THAT THEY ARE UNSTOPPABLE GODS WHO NEED TO BE 99% NERFED AND HAVE THEIR ACCOUNTS BANNED!!!"

If I can survive lich with a scourge minion-mancer, you have no excuse. I literally just use LOS and dodges with barrier and carapace, same as always. And I suck, so I'm not outplaying anyone with my no-mobility build. Stay alive for 10 seconds MAYBE 3 times a game. That's it.

Hyperbolic much? It's not a baseless assertion when 3 hits from a Lich will kill just about everything. Oh, you're hyper toughness and barrier loaded build survived it? Congrats, anyone else who doesn't have a projectile block gets dumpstered. Also, this isn't the Arena; instant LoS access isn't always available and sometimes the shots will just ignore the object and hit you around them anyway.

How about we make lich not get ruined by projectile blocks but not destroy anything that doesn't save one specifically for Lich?

In other words, no build should have hard counters? I disagree. This game would be boooooooring with that type of homogenization.

Lich form isn't a build.

It’s a specific Gm talent that is based off a power build.

Once again this talent has so much counter play already it isn’t even funny.

The entire ideology of the op is a large reason why this game mode has gotten so stale.

There is a huge lack of build diversity already in this game mode and posts like these just further that problem......

One of the reasons build diversity is such trash is because of things like Lich form. The other options are either bad or just wildly inferior, making them mandatory, and because of this opposing builds have to bring specific tools at all times to deal with it or risk it running over their team. This turns the extremely powerful tool that's being countered useless and it becomes the same song and dance every time: Lich Form - Projectile Block = Wasted Elite, or Lich Form - No Projectile Block = Dead Team.

Build diversity would improve

dramatically

if so much stuff wasn't hard countered by so much else and rendered useless. This would also mean the things being countered have no excuse to be absolutely busted in the situations they aren't made useless. We have a much longer list of useless or unviable skills vs good and viable ones. Sometimes it's bad design, more often it's the better skills invalidating all else

It really boils down to whether you prefer the rock-paper-scissors approach to balance or the everybody-fares-the-same-against-everybody approach. There's merit in both options. I just prefer the former.

It's not so much I think everyone should fare the same against everyone, but rather it's that I don't think we should have such extreme counters that make things completely unplayable if the counters are prevalent. Not only does this severely hinder possible build options but makes the meta become stale because you're only going to see certain builds that are either extremely good at a specific role and thus make no other builds that try to do something similar worth using, offer enough utility to a team to warrant building a team around, have a niche as a counter build, etc etc.

[Smoosh.2718]

I just want to throw this one out there as well:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dread

Combine this with Reapers Onslaught and you have yourself up to 8s of quickness, that is more than enough time to down up to 3 players, and potentially kill the downed state player as well.

Skill combo's to pull off this very 'challenging' setup:

F1 > 3 > 3 > F1 > 0 > 111111111111111111

Will this change? probably if Lichform removed quickness when you use the skill. I'm ok with quickness activating the skill, but not ok with quickness effecting the 'very hard to use' 1 skill.

Yet still this skill is defended with the 'just dodge 4 head' gang and the 'Just line of sight it'. If every necro has this 1 skill the question comes to why? Overperforming? Or does the class need a rework with its other skills as well?

As an example, Warrior's, Thieves, Mesmers, Elementalists, Guardians, Rangers, Revenants and Engineers you'll see running around with different elite skills, yet necro (unless running meme mancer) you'll see with lich form.

Its undeniable that changes need to be made, not just to Lich form but other skills as well, keeping skills like this as they are just encourage cheese play. This kind of cheese play does not retain players.

Could removing boons on entry to the skill fix this skill? Probably not?Would it make the skill a little more fair in combat? I'd say it would, since players can now have chance to react than have 3 blasts of 6k damage in their face in a split second.Would reworks need to be done down the line to address this skill? Yes.

What I was proposing isnt the be all end all fix, but more of a band aid to stop the immdiate bleed that's slowly becoming infectious.