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KPs good in high population - KPs bad in low population - No KPs is good in low population


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@36F0A0BB-7480-4A73-8575-EED6DF06FE19 said:Low population, high population, i don't care. What i do care about is getting insulted by "new" players that can't prove anything. When i post 100kp or 150 kp on lfg (which is not outrageous), i don't want that new https: killproof.me nonsense. If there is a required "old"kp amount on lfg, you spam it or you don't join, simple as that. Not our fault if anet changed the kp system. And since the new release, leechers have become a huge pain. Learn your class, do training runs and don't insult those who call you out an your lies.

I'm sorry, I converted all of my KP into the new stuff to get the new infusion. Killproof.me is a valid website that shows how much currency someone has and can show how many times someone's successfully cleared the content. It's literally more accurate than pinging the normal KP. If you don't want to use that, enjoy your dwindling playerbase that still owns the old KP as more and more people give up their old KP or quit due to burnout.

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@"Armen.1483" said:Many players with low experience feel "discriminated" with the high kp demands and they feel that they can perform as good as players with high KP. It is completely wrong. I have experienced so many times people join my groups and say if they can join with the half of the kps demanded. Why would they do that ? The waiting times of low kp/no kp is 0. You can create an all welcome/all classes group for CMs and see your group fill in a second. And each time I've accepted them I have regreted. They say "trust me I am good" then die instantly and ask why there are no heals in a no healer comp. Literally today somebody asked a qfb to heal him with f2 tome "because he can", and it was qfbs fault that he died from a oneshot mechanic. In reality it was my fault that I have accepted him to our group while he didn't meet the requirements. So yes, I'd rather wait an hour or not play at all than experience these kinds of things. 150 KP is the MINIMAL that can assure you somewhat calm chill non toxic and smooth run. If you got no KP, just train and stack some red celestial infusions.

I completely agree with this filters exist for a reason and we should not be forced to play with new people.

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Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying trip everyone up so they can work together, everyone is new. It's just as entitled to play an MMO expecting to be carried all the time as experienced players by other experienced players. THE WHOLE POINT of an mmo is cooperation. The moment you're soullessly playing for rewards, you need to find a new game.

Edit: it is both stupid and offensive to tell me that i expect to be carried. I'm the one who will solo carry noobs through gold tier rewards on the easy strikes, set up fault tolerant WoJ comps that pass on the first try. I like helping people win. I've never asked for kp either unlike other strike leaders. I don't do strikes much because i want legendaries these days, but dude, i carry people and judge people who don't.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying trip everyone up so they can work together, everyone is new. It's just as entitled to play an MMO expecting to be carried all the time as experienced players by other experienced players. THE WHOLE POINT of an mmo is cooperation. The moment you're soullessly playing for rewards, you need to find a new game.

You’re pretty much suggesting that. You state that end game systems are broken because veteran players do not want to teach new players. You’re making it out as if veteran players are obligated to teach new players otherwise the end-game system is broken.

There is also plenty of cooperation in raids. Cooperation doesn’t mean just teaching new players.

Edit: it is both stupid and offensive to tell me that i expect to be carried. I'm the one who will solo carry noobs through gold tier rewards on the easy strikes, set up fault tolerant WoJ comps that pass on the first try. I like helping people win. I've never asked for kp either unlike other strike leaders. I don't do strikes much because i want legendaries these days, but dude, i carry people and judge people who don't.

There’s a difference between expecting veteran players to teach you versus expecting them to carry you. I said the former.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying trip everyone up so they can work together, everyone is new. It's just as entitled to play an MMO expecting to be carried all the time as experienced players by other experienced players. THE WHOLE POINT of an mmo is cooperation. The moment you're soullessly playing for rewards, you need to find a new game.

You’re pretty much suggesting that. You state that end game systems are broken because veteran players do not want to teach new players. You’re making it out as if veteran players are obligated to teach new players otherwise the end-game system is broken.

There is also plenty of cooperation in raids. Cooperation doesn’t mean just teaching new players.

If veteran players are not creating an environment where new players feel welcome they are essentially killing the game and/or game mode. There must be some level of help in an mmo if it's to thrive. You're right it doesn't but in a game like gw2 where all progression is permanent something needs to be done to put everyone on the same level if you want to open the door to the rest of the community participating.

Again this is so funny for you to be saying while expecting anet to crank out more content in raids specifically.

Other games essentially do what i stated by introducing new raids each season and making the okd gear obsolete. And players will usually even take new people in the guild around the turn of a season freely because everyone is essentially new. I never see the vets complain. What you're advocating by disagreeing with me is that you never want to learn anything new. Why do you even want new raids then?

Edit: it is both stupid and offensive to tell me that i expect to be carried. I'm the one who will solo carry noobs through gold tier rewards on the easy strikes, set up fault tolerant WoJ comps that pass on the first try. I like helping people win. I've never asked for kp either unlike other strike leaders. I don't do strikes much because i want legendaries these days, but dude, i carry people and judge people who don't.

There’s a difference between expecting veteran players to teach you versus expecting them to carry you. I said the former.

If you're implying i'm not willing to learn that's also a false statement. Do you really think that the barrier is just people not willing to learn? How is the ridiculous setup in the op NOT proof that's not the issue.

100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying trip everyone up so they can work together, everyone is new. It's just as entitled to play an MMO expecting to be carried all the time as experienced players by other experienced players. THE WHOLE POINT of an mmo is cooperation. The moment you're soullessly playing for rewards, you need to find a new game.

You’re pretty much suggesting that. You state that end game systems are broken because veteran players do not want to teach new players. You’re making it out as if veteran players are obligated to teach new players otherwise the end-game system is broken.

There is also plenty of cooperation in raids. Cooperation doesn’t mean just teaching new players.

If veteran players are not creating an environment where new players feel welcome they are essentially killing the game and/or game mode. There must be some level of help in an mmo if it's to thrive. You're right it doesn't but in a game like gw2 where all progression is permanent something needs to be done to put everyone on the same level if you want to open the door to the rest of the community participating.

It is incorrect to assume that veteran players are creating that environment. That positive environment just might not be as present in the LFG. Last I checked, there are tons of guilds and discords. If people want help in a MMO, then they should also start behaving like this game was a MMO. Interact with others, join guilds, make friends, etc. and not just scream:"this is a MMO, I demand you help me" on specific issues or when ever they feel like it.

That's the main problem tbh:This entire solo approach and attitude many players put forth, only to then complain when suddenly they realize that they might need other players help. You can't have both and get to eat the cake too.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Again this is so funny for you to be saying while expecting anet to crank out more content in raids specifically.

Other games essentially do what i stated by introducing new raids each season and making the okd gear obsolete. And players will usually even take new people in the guild around the turn of a season freely because everyone is essentially new. I never see the vets complain. What you're advocating by disagreeing with me is that you never want to learn anything new. Why do you even want new raids then?

No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:Edit: it is both stupid and offensive to tell me that i expect to be carried. I'm the one who will solo carry noobs through gold tier rewards on the easy strikes, set up fault tolerant WoJ comps that pass on the first try. I like helping people win. I've never asked for kp either unlike other strike leaders. I don't do strikes much because i want legendaries these days, but dude, i carry people and judge people who don't.

There’s a difference between expecting veteran players to teach you versus expecting them to carry you. I said the former.

If you're implying i'm not willing to learn that's also a false statement. Do you really think that the barrier is just people not willing to learn? How is the ridiculous setup in the op NOT proof that's not the issue.

100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

No, the barrier is literally: my time is valuable and if I want to train and help, I will do so on my own terms and certainly not every single day on content which already takes up a significant amount of time if run daily.

You want an actually educated opinion on this from someone who actively trains and helps players as well as runs fractal training guilds on both NA and EU? here:

He gives a pretty good summary of what benefits and detriments there are to KP. He even openly states that he dislikes the old KP system, and then explains how we have nothing to replace it or how this entire system is there to help reduce the already long time investment.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.

Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying trip everyone up so they can work together, everyone is new. It's just as entitled to play an MMO expecting to be carried all the time as experienced players by other experienced players. THE WHOLE POINT of an mmo is cooperation. The moment you're soullessly playing for rewards, you need to find a new game.

You’re pretty much suggesting that. You state that end game systems are broken because veteran players do not want to teach new players. You’re making it out as if veteran players are obligated to teach new players otherwise the end-game system is broken.

There is also plenty of cooperation in raids. Cooperation doesn’t mean just teaching new players.

If veteran players are not creating an environment where new players feel welcome they are essentially killing the game and/or game mode. There must be some level of help in an mmo if it's to thrive. You're right it doesn't but in a game like gw2 where all progression is permanent something needs to be done to put everyone on the same level if you want to open the door to the rest of the community participating.

Veteran players are not required to train new players just as veteran fractal players are not required to train new fractal players just as veteran sPvP players are not required to train new sPvP players and so on. That said, many veteran players do train newer players and have set up discords for this. This isn't what is "killing" the game mode.

Again this is so funny for you to be saying while expecting anet to crank out more content in raids specifically.

It's a game mode that Anet still supports so it should continue to receive updates.

Other games essentially do what i stated by introducing new raids each season and making the okd gear obsolete.

I'm sure everyone would appreciate gear treadmills...

And players will usually even take new people in the guild around the turn of a season freely because everyone is essentially new. I never see the vets complain. What you're advocating by disagreeing with me is that you never want to learn anything new. Why do you even want new raids then?

That's some crazy weird logic there

Edit: I also forgot that none of the fractals are new as they're W7 is well over a year old. There's also a big difference between trying a new raid with experienced raiders and trying them with those who have never raided before.

Edit: it is both stupid and offensive to tell me that i expect to be carried. I'm the one who will solo carry noobs through gold tier rewards on the easy strikes, set up fault tolerant WoJ comps that pass on the first try. I like helping people win. I've never asked for kp either unlike other strike leaders. I don't do strikes much because i want legendaries these days, but dude, i carry people and judge people who don't.

There’s a difference between expecting veteran players to teach you versus expecting them to carry you. I said the former.

If you're implying i'm not willing to learn that's also a false statement. Do you really think that the barrier is just people not willing to learn? How is the ridiculous setup in the op NOT proof that's not the issue.

I said "expecting them to teach you" and nothing about you not willing to learn.

There are discord set up for players to learn. How many that want to actually take advantage of those? How many are willing to play meta builds? How many are open to critique and willing to make adjustments?

100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

As I said before, veteran players are not obligated to train new players. Those KP runs are veteran players looking for quick and smooth clears. You do not get that if you have to train one or more players.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

Well still waiting for that next wing....

You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

The CMs had nothing to do with whether veteran players are obligated to train new players. That's why it seemed odd that you suddenly brought them up.

Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

Well still waiting for that next wing....

You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

I never said that 50 kp was or wasn't a smooth run. Why are you saying that I did when it's fairly clear that I didn't say that?

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

The CMs had nothing to do with whether veteran players are obligated to train new players. That's why it seemed odd that you suddenly brought them up.

Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

Well still waiting for that next wing....

You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

I never said that 50 kp was or wasn't a smooth run. Why are you saying that I did when it's fairly clear that I didn't say that?

You did:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

As I said before, veteran players are not obligated to train new players. Those KP runs are veteran players looking for quick and smooth clears. You do not get that if you have to train one or more players.

That's your response to me talking about the op.

So people just spontaneously do cms at some magic moment with no help from others after doing non cms. Got it.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

The CMs had nothing to do with whether veteran players are obligated to train new players. That's why it seemed odd that you suddenly brought them up.

Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

Well still waiting for that next wing....

You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

I never said that 50 kp was or wasn't a smooth run. Why are you saying that I did when it's fairly clear that I didn't say that?

You did:

100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

As I said before, veteran players are not obligated to train new players. Those KP runs are veteran players looking for quick and smooth clears. You do not get that if you have to train one or more players.

That's your response to me talking about the op.

So people just spontaneously do cms at some magic moment with no help from others after doing non cms. Got it.

This is you taking the post out of context. You can clearly see that I was responding to your post when you stated that 100 KP is not willing to teach. I then replied that those KP advertisements were for those not looking to train but instead looking to have quick and smooth clears.

You added that statement which didn't make sense to what was being discussed, I responded to it, and now you're twisting it around. Seriously?

Edit: Come to think about it, you probably brought up the KP thing because you were trying to equate all of the KP advertisements in the LFG as there not being anyone willing to train. This is obviously false.

You're also ignoring that, when it comes to fractals, anybody can post a LFG looking to attempt the CM and players with similar experience can join them. You don't need veteran players to teach them.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

The CMs had nothing to do with whether veteran players are obligated to train new players. That's why it seemed odd that you suddenly brought them up.

Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

Well still waiting for that next wing....

You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

I never said that 50 kp was or wasn't a smooth run. Why are you saying that I did when it's fairly clear that I didn't say that?

You did:

100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

As I said before, veteran players are not obligated to train new players. Those KP runs are veteran players looking for quick and smooth clears. You do not get that if you have to train one or more players.

That's your response to me talking about the op.

So people just spontaneously do cms at some magic moment with no help from others after doing non cms. Got it.

This is you taking the post out of context. You can clearly see that I was responding to your post when you stated that 100 KP is not willing to teach. I then replied that those KP advertisements were for those not looking to train but instead looking to have quick and smooth clears.

You added that statement which didn't make sense to what was being discussed, I responded to it, and now you're twisting it around. Seriously?

Even if that's your line of thinking i was still referring to that. You're claiming people willing to teach when there's crazy kp requirements including others in the lfg, capable of clearing the content, sounds pretty far fetched in context. I don't feel the toxicity is isolated to cms. In fact it's not. I've had other experiences. And you're ignoring what i'm typing. That was your response to me referring to 2 experienced groups in lfg.

Edit: Come to think about it, you probably brought up the KP thing because you were trying to equate all of the KP advertisements in the LFG as there not being anyone willing to train. This is obviously false.

You're also ignoring that, when it comes to fractals, anybody can post a LFG looking to attempt the CM and players with similar experience can join them. You don't need veteran players to teach them.

Apparently you can't get groups together at certain times of day that way, and as i game late i'm in the ops boat.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

The CMs had nothing to do with whether veteran players are obligated to train new players. That's why it seemed odd that you suddenly brought them up.

Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

Well still waiting for that next wing....

You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

I never said that 50 kp was or wasn't a smooth run. Why are you saying that I did when it's fairly clear that I didn't say that?

You did:

100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

As I said before, veteran players are not obligated to train new players. Those KP runs are veteran players looking for quick and smooth clears. You do not get that if you have to train one or more players.

That's your response to me talking about the op.

So people just spontaneously do cms at some magic moment with no help from others after doing non cms. Got it.

This is you taking the post out of context. You can clearly see that I was responding to your post when you stated that 100 KP is not willing to teach. I then replied that those KP advertisements were for those not looking to train but instead looking to have quick and smooth clears.

You added that statement which didn't make sense to what was being discussed, I responded to it, and now you're twisting it around. Seriously?

Even if that's your line of thinking i was still referring to that. You're claiming people willing to teach when there's crazy kp requirements including others in the lfg, capable of clearing the content, sounds pretty far fetched in context. I don't feel the toxicity is isolated to cms. In fact it's not. I've had other experiences. And you're ignoring what i'm typing. That was your response to me referring to 2 experienced groups in lfg.

THE LFG HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TRAINING (bolded and capped for emphasis) Those with advertisements with KP are strictly for clears. You keep conflating the the LFG with training. For raids there are discords available and even guilds. For the fractal CMs, I believe there are the same as well. You can also just grab other players to do learn the CM.

Edit: Come to think about it, you probably brought up the KP thing because you were trying to equate all of the KP advertisements in the LFG as there not being anyone willing to train. This is obviously false.

You're also ignoring that, when it comes to fractals, anybody can post a LFG looking to attempt the CM and players with similar experience can join them. You don't need veteran players to teach them.

Apparently you can't get groups together at certain times of day that way, and as i game late i'm in the ops boat.

It depends. for NA you typically have to do them during prime time as that's when the most players are on. That still has nothing to do with veterans being obligated to train new players.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.

Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...

The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?

The CMs had nothing to do with whether veteran players are obligated to train new players. That's why it seemed odd that you suddenly brought them up.

Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.

Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.

Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.

Well still waiting for that next wing....

You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.

I never said that 50 kp was or wasn't a smooth run. Why are you saying that I did when it's fairly clear that I didn't say that?

You did:

100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.

As I said before, veteran players are not obligated to train new players. Those KP runs are veteran players looking for quick and smooth clears. You do not get that if you have to train one or more players.

That's your response to me talking about the op.

So people just spontaneously do cms at some magic moment with no help from others after doing non cms. Got it.

This is you taking the post out of context. You can clearly see that I was responding to your post when you stated that 100 KP is not willing to teach. I then replied that those KP advertisements were for those not looking to train but instead looking to have quick and smooth clears.

You added that statement which didn't make sense to what was being discussed, I responded to it, and now you're twisting it around. Seriously?

Even if that's your line of thinking i was still referring to that. You're claiming people willing to teach when there's crazy kp requirements including others in the lfg, capable of clearing the content, sounds pretty far fetched in context. I don't feel the toxicity is isolated to cms. In fact it's not. I've had other experiences. And you're ignoring what i'm typing. That was your response to me referring to 2 experienced groups in lfg.

Edit: Come to think about it, you probably brought up the KP thing because you were trying to equate all of the KP advertisements in the LFG as there not being anyone willing to train. This is obviously false.

You're also ignoring that, when it comes to fractals, anybody can post a LFG looking to attempt the CM and players with similar experience can join them. You don't need veteran players to teach them.

Apparently you can't get groups together at certain times of day that way, and as i game late i'm in the ops boat.

Well I got a group for old cms+t4 asking for title as kp 1 hour before reset and got them done so maybe your not trying hard enough?

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

Simply put:If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

Even if not, here is what I did:I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

@Firebeard.1746 said:As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

Simply put:If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

@Cyninja.2954 said:We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

Even if not, here is what I did:I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

@Firebeard.1746 said:As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

I agree with you.It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

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@yann.1946 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

Simply put:If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

@Cyninja.2954 said:We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

Even if not, here is what I did:I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

@Firebeard.1746 said:As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

I agree with you.It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

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There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

Simply put:If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

@Cyninja.2954 said:We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

Even if not, here is what I did:I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

@Firebeard.1746 said:As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

I agree with you.It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

That's the point though, their where people around. In my experience most of the time when people want to teach boardgames it's when friends are involved.Ofcourse their are cases where it's just random people. But people don't expect to be thought.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

Simply put:If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

@Cyninja.2954 said:We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

Even if not, here is what I did:I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

@Firebeard.1746 said:As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

I agree with you.It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

All you have to imagine is this:Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

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