Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Alacrity / Quickness Monopoly


Recommended Posts

Almost all groups want an AlacRev and an QFB. Imagine what a Chrono had to do to provide those boons while a Rev or FB do it in their sleep.

The thing that bothers me most about it is the importance of a FB. You can play QFB with solid power damage in fracts, also can play him with very high condi damage, and as if that wasn't enough, FB is also one of the best healers in the entire game, even without permanent party quickness uptime.

Spin it however you want, he's either too good at too many things at once or other classes are too bad.

But what do you think, how can we break this monopoly? Should Anet nerv these builds, or buff other builds instead, or maybe a mix of both?!


I personally believe that other classes have potential. Reaper, for example, ensures quicknees in shroud for himself, but what if he would share it with up to 5 allied targets. You can find something similar for other classes. Alacrity and quickness maybe should always be shared with at least up to 5 allied targets as this has become so important. I just wish to see groups again that are not built around AlacRev and QFB, without lack of alacrity or quickness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 71
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

We could change quickness on fb to swiftness and alarcity on ren and chrono to vigor and add quickness to ele as an air and tempest thing and alarcity to scourge. Simply to have change we must kill old comp for those to ensure ppl use new :) problem is over in end every class would be nerfed reason for necro to not share is necro is very selfish built class. Anet does not give without taking in balance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:We could change quickness on fb to swiftness and alarcity on ren and chrono to vigor and add quickness to ele as an air and tempest thing and alarcity to scourge. Simply to have change we must kill old comp for those to ensure ppl use new :)And then we would simply change one problem for another, just as we did when we switched dfom Chrono to Fb.

problem is over in end every class would be nerfedI don't think that making everyone miserable is a good goal to have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sileeent.5861 said:Almost all groups want an AlacRev and an QFB. Imagine what a Chrono had to do to provide those boons while a Rev or FB do it in their sleep.

The thing that bothers me most about it is the importance of a FB. You can play QFB with solid power damage in fracts, also can play him with very high condi damage, and as if that wasn't enough, FB is also one of the best healers in the entire game, even without permanent party quickness uptime.

Seize the moment chrono has also very high power damage. Doesnt require any boon duration. Fb requires 25%. The problem is the quickness application and general lack of burst on chrono and the slow requirement. In theory they could be equal and chrono could do higher dps but who is going to provide slow in fractals? How do you shatter during split phases etc. Fb just has to press a button.Boon chrono needs another rebalance. Seize the moment was a step in the right direction for raids but it just doesnt work in fractals. Current boon chrono is amazing in 10man content but just feels lackluster in 5man content.Nerfing quickness and alacrity wont solve the problem. It will just make boon supports worse than dps. Pug alacrity renegades are already slot wastes in fractals. Alacrity is only ~15% more dps and doesnt justify the 2k dps most rens have. There need to be more boon specs and firebrand needs a drawback but im not sure how it could be nerfed without making it useless. Giving tempest quickness or alacrity would be a huge mistake though. It can already give 10target fury and might and has very high heals. Would rather buff meme specs like scrapper or normalize the boonthief. No more perma 10 target boons but quickness/alac instead or something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PoF specs are way too power crept which makes boon application and support pretty trivial. With chrono you have to maintain complex rotations and keep track of a lot of different cooldowns. And try to imagine this, you actually have to pay attention to your characters position and where you place your skills. With FB and Renegade (and a lot of other PoF specs) its all just passive and aoe spam.

I dont think there is any easy way to fix the playstyles of the objectively overpowered elite specs. Making arbitrary nerfs or buffs just ends up making a bigger mess of balance and class design. If people want to move away from the mindless aoe gameplay then a lot of elite specs need to be completely overhauled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:PoF specs are way too power crept which makes boon application and support pretty trivial. With chrono you have to maintain complex rotations and keep track of a lot of different cooldowns. And try to imagine this, you actually have to pay attention to your characters position and where you place your skills. With FB and Renegade (and a lot of other PoF specs) its all just passive and aoe spam.

I dont think there is any easy way to fix the playstyles of the objectively overpowered elite specs. Making arbitrary nerfs or buffs just ends up making a bigger mess of balance and class design. If people want to move away from the mindless aoe gameplay then a lot of elite specs need to be completely overhauled.

Have you ever played chrono? Boon chrono has no rotation. you spam your skills off cooldown. Extremely easy. You dont even need wells for perma quickness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The main reason why this is happening is that there is litteraly only one alternative and thats chrono. Chrono is very strong in 10 man content where the fights last long enough for chrono dps to happen. So with the current design of classes the best we can get is making one or both of those specs interchangeable with a similar chrono spec.

The biggest solution would be to give other classes ways of group buffing quickness or alac but i don't see anet giving any of the existing elite specs the ability to do so when we have an expansion and 9 new elite specs on the horizon.

Realistically we are probably going to have to wait for chrono changes that make it a viable fractal boon support that is, very importantly, on par with the current existing boon support and/or new elite specs that can do that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone here played chrono around POF launch? The class was an abomination that could share ~10 boons (q/a included) to its group with a single press of SOI. Thank goodness anet nerfed chrono because at that state chrono was the class that had monopoly on all boons in game.Also, we don't have monopoly on q and a now. You need TWO classes now to get these boons. Not one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There need to be more boon specs and firebrand needs a drawback but im not sure how it could be nerfed without making it useless.

Just wanted to make a comment on this, not exactly relevant to the topic though. I agree that compared to DH and base Guard, the “trade offs” for FB aren’t there as compared to other elite specs. I guess what, their times have longer cds than virtues? My only brainstorm would be to remove the passive effects of the times and make them strictly active abilities, but that would mean that one FB trait and some other base guard traits that interact with their passive abilities would have to be removed/reworked. Again though, that doesn’t relate to the quickness capabilities of FB for this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Remove boon share everyone has to upkeep their own boons

If support builds are a too complicated concept to be allowed to exist, why don't we just delete the boons off the game then, and just let everyone stack dps? I am sure that will make the game more interesting.Oh wait, i forgot, you wanted to heavily nerf dps as well.So i guess we should go back to bearbows spamming 1 and 4.Yes, that should be fun. Especially when people will eventually notice that everything got nerfed so hard it's not even possible to do the content anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't forget that Firebrand also has a monopoly over group Stability, which barely exists elsewhere. This gives them a significant advantage in encounters that entirely on dependant on it, like T3/T4 Solid Ocean Fractal.

Ever since Eilte specs were introduced, they've been reducing what a single class can do, ironically by adding more to other classes. This happens because you end up with exclusive boons or other damage/support mechanics added to the game which appear like additional content, but instead cheapen that class and make other classes undesirable, or completely incapable of the role.

In the Core game at release, everyone could do everything, and its what made the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the Core game at release, everyone could do everything, and its what made the game.

no nercro no ranger

@Hannelore.8153 said:

Ever since Eilte specs were introduced, they've been reducing what a single class can do, ironically by adding more to other classes. This happens because you end up with exclusive boons or other damage/support mechanics added to the game which appear like additional content, but instead cheapen that class and make other classes undesirable, or completely incapable of the role.

You're about 5 years too late on this take, most of that has been patched out.> @Astralporing.1957 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Remove boon share everyone has to upkeep their own boons

If support builds are a too complicated concept to be allowed to exist, why don't we just delete the boons off the game then, and just let everyone stack dps? I am sure that will make the game more interesting.Oh wait, i forgot, you wanted to heavily nerf dps as well.So i guess we should go back to bearbows spamming 1 and 4.Yes, that should be fun. Especially when people will eventually notice that everything got nerfed so hard it's not even possible to do the content anymore.

I'm like 90% certain that person is a troll.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Hannelore.8153 said:Don't forget that Firebrand also has a monopoly over group Stability, which barely exists elsewhere. This gives them a significant advantage in encounters that entirely on dependant on it, like T3/T4 Solid Ocean Fractal.

Ever since Eilte specs were introduced, they've been reducing what a single class can do, ironically by adding more to other classes. This happens because you end up with exclusive boons or other damage/support mechanics added to the game which appear like additional content, but instead cheapen that class and make other classes undesirable, or completely incapable of the role.

In the Core game at release, everyone could do everything, and its what made the game.

Revenant disagrees. Actually, Jailis stability is arguable better and more reliable in FOTM setting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't understand the campaign to give quickness to reaper or other classes.

That won't solve a thing because as long as one class has better application it will shut out the alternatives. The solution is likely to hit quickness itself , reducing it to 20-25% instead of 50%. I don't see alacrity as an issue because if someone is playing chrono they need to invest heavily in boon duration ; renegade is only able to be adequate due to the high critical chance even when running diviner gear , the critical hit chance tanks if you dodge a lot all the way down to as low as 50% (35% from gear + pots/banner/spotter). Diviner renegade is far from high DPS , so unless the "issue" the original poster has is 2x condi RR in 100cm I don't see a point in this complaint.

Seize the moment power chrono doesn't have as much burst because you need to build up clones , just look at the logs. That's why people utilize CFB/pQB if not using HB.

I also don't understand the victim mentality of necros, if anyone should be complaining it is thieves because they aren't wanted other than for DPS while being glassier. Reapers have the advantage of quickness if the firebrands play poorly and some boon rip regardless of build if revs are sleeping on the job.

Class by class:Guardians --- shouldn't be complaining, period. CFB+HB/pQB are meta everywhereMesmers --- there's a ramp time on power chrono but other than that it isn't atrocious now that shatters operate without clones plus boon rip on auto ; condi works fine for 100cm and stuff like mai trin
Revs --- shouldn't be complaining at all, just look at LFG ; for 100cm condi RR is 2 slots of a 5 man party if you go that routeWarriors --- shouldn't be complaining, it's still meta except some 100cm groups (banners , decent DPS even when running them, "easy to play")Rangers --- shouldn't be complaining , it's still meta except maybe 100cm (spotter + frost spirit) ; druid is offmeta heal / condi support ; able to ranged condi DPS for 100cmEles --- weaver is meta ; for overall T4s it isn't horrible as tempest either (and running a few marauder instead of assassin's pieces offsets the HP) with high cleave and doesn't have issues with social awkwardness and other instabilities ; heal tempest is offmetaEngineers --- holo is an offmeta spec overall but does high damage and high cleave; for overall T4s it isn't badNecros --- I've seen people run scourges for 100cm and other places such as Siren's Reef ; decent when No Pain No Gain and Vengeance apply boons because boon rip is on low cooldown regardless of which mainhand you run other than staff (who runs staff in PVE?) ; in fractals with lots of adds the life force generation is high (unlike when raiding)Thieves --- literally in the worst spot right now because consume plasma isn't a thing , no self quickness to make up for bad groups, and there's no profession specific effects ; condi is a meme

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Aceofsppades.6873 said:

@"Infusion.7149" said:I don't understand the campaign to give quickness to reaper or other classes.

Because people want variety in the boon support roles, when they have to play the quickness giver role in fractals they want more choice than just quickbrand

Support scrapper should probably get it before reaper would. Right now it isn't really viable in a 5 man scenario because it takes up a support slot and does no damage if you camp med kit (even HB does damage as long as you aren't in a tome). It would probably gain quickness application on something such as Mass Momentum as that is not typically run on a support build. If placed on Mass Momentum you get a tradeoff, you can either have superspeed on your function gyro and wells (not as relevant for most PVE) or you can have AoE quickness (with the current recharge modification on ressing it wouldn't have good coverage if people down often). In addition , even when built for full offense scrapper DPS isn't very competitive for PVE. The major concern with adding quickness to scrapper is that it currently is dominant in WVW and PVP alike so this is unlikely to happen especially in the current iteration of quickness which is +50%. Placing quickness on a core traitline that isn't inventions / tools is likely a poor idea since holos can make use of it ; currently the only way you have fury output on support scrapper is running Experimental Turrets which is extremely unwieldy.

People forget that reaper has boon rip regardless of if you spec for it. Not really as relevant for raiding, but very relevant for fractals.

Mechanically how would that even work on reaper ? it can't be "AoE quickness on life reap" because it would be a braindead trait and the uptime would be poor when there's no life force generation from adds. It would be more likely to be applied to scourge if necro is given quickness (unlikely for a class touted as slow), for example on Abrasive Grit or Sand Savant. Right now in places where there is incoming slow or chill , you can get "free" quickness and alacrity by Nefarious Favor on scourge. If quickness were to be applied on a lesser used trait such as Quickening Thirst it would make sense thematically, but it would probably need to trigger on a weapon attack (mainhand dagger is not used by necro DPS specs) which is clunky design. I highly doubt quickness would ever be given to a traitline such as Spite, Curses, or Soul Reaping. Even if hypothetically necromancers gained AoE quickness output, they currently don't have fury output for party members so you'd end up needing something like a guardian /druid or the lesser used herald, tempest (Zephyr's Boon with aura share) specs for any scenario requiring power damage unless you run pack runes similar to current boon chrono.

For thief it could be added really easily, AOE quickness on Bountiful Theft or Thrill of the Crime in PVE if that was ever deemed a viable change. Trickery is more often run in PVP and WVW than PVE. Balancing this would be easy because you could have it 10s base duration of quickness in PVE and only 0.25 or 0.5 second in PVP/WVW.

The #1 concern is it has been mentioned that PVE and WVW/PVP splits are only numerical. So any changes proposed have to take that into account. Short of having the WVW/PVP duration and cooldown completely unplayable there isn't many other ways to split it. That's also a reason not to put onto mechanics such as wells , tricks/traps, anything that can be recharged instantly , etc.

Quite frankly, having quickness on mantra of solace was a bad design because it made it overloaded (it does three things : aegis, heal, and quickness). The quickness on mantra of potence could have been the primary source and the mantras could have had double cooldown and durations (so instead of aegis spam every 12s base cooldown , ~24 cooldown ; the mantra of potence duration could have been upgraded along with a higher cooldown) to enforce higher minimum boon duration.

There's a lot of kneejerk buff requests but overall it's likely healthier for the game if mantra of solace was detuned and quickness was reduced to 20-25% in all game modes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Infusion.7149 said:There's a lot of kneejerk buff requests but overall it's likely healthier for the game if mantra of solace was detuned and quickness was reduced to 20-25% in all game modes.

Your suggestion to reduce quickness strength from 50% is useless since most if not all dps classes rely on the fast activation times to output their dps in the first. Reaper for example without the 50% activation speed in shroud would have heavily nerfed damage due to shroud skills activation times inherently being much longer. In order to offset it they would need to reduce the base activation times of a lot of skills which in turn is more work for them so NO!!! I'd rather not have my favorite class's dps nerfed due to your insane idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Dahkeus.8243" said:but a true monopoly was when chrono was literally the only class you could get both quickness and alacrity for most of raiding history up until relatively recently.

This. A little history lesson : It used to be you HAD to have a chrono for any sort of organized group. Then came Druid and the "holy dyad" was formed, since druid both healed strongly and is the only class able to give and sustain 25 stacks of might to 10 ppl at one time plus their wonderful boons from their spirits (hitting 10 ppl). Groups became Chrono/Druid/X. But wait! I forget someone. The warrior. Ah yes. Ye ol might/banner/PoS build slave. So there's your "hole trinity", Chrono/Druid/Warrior, built upon Chrono's monopoly on alacrity and quickness. So please, spare me the "nerf Firebrands" rhetoric. You want the classes to have more diversity? Anet is doing that. I am sorry that they chose not to give your favorite classes these boons. Give it time and Anet may, sadly, homogenize all of the classes ... hopefully not because I, for one, find the diversity amongst the classes one of the more engaging aspects of this great game. If it came to be that all classes had the same skills/boons, etc as each other (hence, homogenization), then this would be a boring, one dimensional game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...