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Thoughts on today's "balance"?


mrauls.6519

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@Dave.6819 said:

@otto.5684 said:And 2-3 years ago, was writ of persistence a problem? This is kitten backwards in every way.

Was Chaotic Interruption problematic before that one mirage build?

Writ of Persistence needed to go, 10/10 change.

I still don't understand don't you guys see what's happening? Community over the years asked for so much nerfs that soon we'll have such boring dumbed-down versions of our classes that it won't be fun to play anymore. We'll have just 1 dodge/autoattack and 1 amulet. I mean.. even now they aren't fun. Take a look and compare how classes were at PoF release and now. Rev became clunky. Mirage is a joke. Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it. FB is like 30% of what it was. etcetc. You realise that it's 50% our fault? We're destroying our own classes/game. But sure.. keep going and soon no1 will pvp anymore. I say leave it to the devs. Let them do their job even if it's so slow and infrequent.

We're basically already there, most everyone I know says their class is unfun and has tried migrating to new classes to play because they no longer enjoy their mains. Most have quit and moved to WoW or BDO and I doubt they are coming back; My guild is looking for any game coming out in the near future to hold out hope for and even our most optimistic memebers are jaded now and just dont care. Most just wish they'd end this game and go to GW3 and abandon all the classes A-net doesn't like; I dont think its just the players either. CmC seems to really believe in what he is doing.... I feel like he even makes changes that we didn't want or ask for ... (Such as the removal of empty vessel on rev.)

I as a rev main have put down my main... at this stage likely until the expansion. I've migrated to ranger and druid, and im not running the cancerous gimmick trapper build but my build IS able to stand up and I am able to fight. And it feels good to play.... so until they nerf it I have something to play I guess.

@Dave.6819 said:

@Dave.6819 said:Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

It leads to the expansion. Likely where those E-specs will just.... well .... revitalize the game and be the only way to play our characters for the next four to five years. Thats likely what is going to happen.

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I mean you can't argue that the nerfs were very much spot on. 80% of the forums were complaining about holo nades (nerfed) holo might stacking (nerfed) and knockback scrapper (nerfed). Core guard bunker was ridiculous, it's still okay after yesterday's patch, but this nerf was also spot on, with only one trait modification. Tornado nerf also good. Can't say anything about Renegade.

You can argue that there are still some changes that are required (Lich form AA, Shocking Aura, Shiro rev), but nothing REALLY groundbreaking as the things that were nerfed.

The point is, it's very disappointing that in such a long time they did the absolute minimum.. But at least, this time very accurate. I am still hopeful we will get some reworks and buffs in the near future.

For me, the quality of this patch is 8.5/10. 'Content' wise, it's a 2/10.

edit: one note though, Flashbang nerf is still stupid.. reduction of blind is NOT the way to nerf blind spam. mesmer got an ICD, so why not do the same for engi?

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@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Bad:-Nerfing everything on engineer EXCEPT explosive entrance is not the way to go. EE is a badly designed cheese-trait, and once again Anet is making the self-destructive mistake of nerfing around the cheese instead of actually addressing problems at their core. When EE finally does get a proper nerf, engie will likely come out drastically underpowered.

I don't get why they keep doing this.

For the last year FB has been receiving non-stop nerfs to every aspect of it EXCEPT writ-of-persistence, and now they finally do it there's literally nothing left of FB. Similarly, Mirage receiving non-stop nerfs last year to every aspect EXCEPT the core of the problem, being Mirage Cloak, and when they finally address it Mirage goes to F-tier.

This is your future Holosmiths. Have fun with every single aspect of engineer getting nerfed EXCEPT EE, until they finally give in sometime in middle of 2021.

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@Dave.6819 said:

@Dave.6819 said:Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

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@Tharan.9085 said:

@Dave.6819 said:Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

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@Dave.6819 said:

@Dave.6819 said:Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

Without sb5 thief would deserve some buffs, but since it exists thief doesnt

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@Marxx.5021 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:All good changes for the long-term health of PvP. That said, the flash-bang nerf completely missed the point and needs to be completely reworked. Also, revive skills were not touched so I guess I'm still not PvPing for a while. This patch has made me realize that they are probably putting all their resources into designing the new elite specs so they are letting balance fall to the wayside until the expansion. Hope it's worth it. . .

Thats because cmc is not allowed to balance skills, e.g. he cannot change what a skill does.

It's a start. He's still allowed to touch numbers, which pissses me off, but the less this man is allowed to change, the better. In an ideal world he wouldn't be allowed to pick even his own character's nickname, but I'll take whatever I get.

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@Tharan.9085 said:

@Dave.6819 said:Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

Without sb5 thief would deserve some buffs, but since it exists thief doesnt

You realise Thief mains want to play other game modes too right? Maybe go WvW roaming for a change. Or some 1v1s. Or like now.. ranked 3v3. Or maybe actually support your teammates. I'd rather give up Shortbow#5 and get a real rework of this class then be a decap BOT that's useless elsewhere. I encourage you. Play this whole 3v3 season as a Thief. You'll change your outlook quite quickly. Also turn off chat if u do that.

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@Dave.6819 said:

@Dave.6819 said:Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

Without sb5 thief would deserve some buffs, but since it exists thief doesnt

You realise Thief mains want to play other game modes too right? Maybe go WvW roaming for a change. Or some 1v1s. Or like now.. ranked 3v3. Or maybe actually support your teammates. I'd rather give up Shortbow#5 and get a real rework of this class then be a decap BOT that's useless elsewhere. I encourage you. Play this whole 3v3 season as a Thief. You'll change your outlook quite quickly. Also turn off chat if u do that.

You do realise that thief is one of the best wvw roamers because they can easily disengage

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@Tharan.9085 said:

@Dave.6819 said:Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

Without sb5 thief would deserve some buffs, but since it exists thief doesnt

You realise Thief mains want to play other game modes too right? Maybe go WvW roaming for a change. Or some 1v1s. Or like now.. ranked 3v3. Or maybe actually support your teammates. I'd rather give up Shortbow#5 and get a real rework of this class then be a decap BOT that's useless elsewhere. I encourage you. Play this whole 3v3 season as a Thief. You'll change your outlook quite quickly. Also turn off chat if u do that.

You do realise that thief is one of the best wvw roamers because they can easily disengage

Running away isn't fighting.

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@Dave.6819 said:

@Dave.6819 said:Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

Without sb5 thief would deserve some buffs, but since it exists thief doesnt

You realise Thief mains want to play other game modes too right? Maybe go WvW roaming for a change. Or some 1v1s. Or like now.. ranked 3v3. Or maybe actually support your teammates. I'd rather give up Shortbow#5 and get a real rework of this class then be a decap BOT that's useless elsewhere. I encourage you. Play this whole 3v3 season as a Thief. You'll change your outlook quite quickly. Also turn off chat if u do that.

You do realise that thief is one of the best wvw roamers because they can easily disengage

Running away isn't fighting.

You dont know strategy, right?

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@Tharan.9085 said:

@Dave.6819 said:Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

Without sb5 thief would deserve some buffs, but since it exists thief doesnt

You realise Thief mains want to play other game modes too right? Maybe go WvW roaming for a change. Or some 1v1s. Or like now.. ranked 3v3. Or maybe actually support your teammates. I'd rather give up Shortbow#5 and get a real rework of this class then be a decap BOT that's useless elsewhere. I encourage you. Play this whole 3v3 season as a Thief. You'll change your outlook quite quickly. Also turn off chat if u do that.

You do realise that thief is one of the best wvw roamers because they can easily disengage

Running away isn't fighting.

You dont know strategy, right?

There's a difference between strategic disengage and a forced disengage.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Tharan.9085" said:

The only people that think thief is good right now and need nerfs are the people who've never played it before February, when it was actually good.

If we were to put the 2 year old pre-patch thief changes into the game right now, their heads would spin like a top.

And that's what i'm stressing out. Over the years i've seen so many nerfs and im astonished that people ask for further nerfs. Like.. when isit gonna be enough for u guys? When all classes will have 1 dodge and 1 auto-attack? Perfect balance achieved? Not only thief but all classes right now are so shaved off it's just unfun to play anymore. Some classes were out-right destroyed some are still somewhat viable. Put those guys into HoT or pre-HoT days they would be amazed how different it was. Every1 would say "omg nerf that nerf that nerf that. too much to deal with.." Some OP builds yes but it was fun and skilled. Instead of nerfs ppl should ask for buffs. Atleast that way game might have a chance of being fun again.

When it comes to thief i can agree it was somewhat OP early HoT days (and still it wasnt a class able to stand on its own in PvP. only skilled players could actually hold a point if it came to that). But then again.. all classes are OP right after expansion hits. It's a good strategy to sell the expansion. After that.. community joined hands and made a good effort to destroy it.

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@Tayga.3192 said:@"Dave.6819" what you are missing is this, anet will almost never remove sb5 so you are stuck to that for your class. Go roll a mesmer, right now it's just thief without sb5.

And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems ...why would it be all of a sudden OP now, than it was ever before?

It's people complaining about mechanics they don't know how to deal with because their class has ALSO been gutted to the point of uselessness...its just that thief is now the proverbial "Ruler of the Earth rather than a Servant in heaven."

What Dave said is absolutely correct, but nobody seems to see that, it's absurd to me. It's an infinite regress and we are on the trajectory where the end result will be when we are given 1 dodge and 1 stick.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:@"Dave.6819" what you are missing is this, anet will almost never remove sb5 so you are stuck to that for your class. Go roll a mesmer, right now it's just thief without sb5.

And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems ...why would it be all of a sudden OP now, than it was ever before?

It's people complaining about mechanics they don't know how to deal with because their class has ALSO been gutted to the point of uselessness...its just that thief is now the proverbial "Ruler of the Earth rather than a Servant in heaven."

What Dave said is absolutely correct, but nobody seems to see that, it's absurd to me. It's an infinite regress and we are on the trajectory where the end result will be when we are given 1 dodge and 1 stick.

So if people gather and lynch conditions , the company shouldn't nerf them then ? (please dont!)

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@Tayga.3192 said:Thief was viable, but it was never overpowered, and especially not because of SB5.

and why do you think that is? It's not because short-bow is good...its because all other weapon combinations suc and always have been terrible. The only build that was meta for 4ish years is D/P Daredevil. even after heavy nerfs to DP and Shortbow, DP Daredevil is still meta....you really think its meta because it's so good? or that it just might be that everything else the thief has for choices is just dogpile.

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Regular grenade barrage, untouched, has absurd damage (#1 dmg dealing toolkit ability for engi)Shrapnel grenades, untouched, they easily do 7k if it crits along with bleeding

Enhanced storage capacity was cool & fine if you actually played holo and not the little coward that simply heats up the tank then disables to spam grenade autos. Which will probably still happen, only with ~30% less might. Thanks for not killing corona burst. All holos, even non-op, use it

However I insist with the count of grenades: too many, they stack too hard thus making the explosives traitline seem OP(When it's not, particuarly if what you play is mortar o ranged holo. The common difference with grenades is they do only 33% of the vuln/ferocity stacking that grenades do. Not to mention the barrage and minor barrage which each do like 6 stacks of vuln for free lmao)

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:Thief was viable, but it was never overpowered, and especially not because of SB5.

and why do you think that is? It's not because short-bow is good...its because all other weapon combinations
suc
and always have been terrible. The only build that was meta for 4ish years is D/P Daredevil. even after heavy nerfs to DP and Shortbow, DP Daredevil is still meta....you really think its meta because it's so good? or that it just might be that everything else the thief has for choices is just dogpile.

Really it’s because the initiative system promotes camping in a weapon set for damage and using the other set for utility.

Shortbow 5 is good mobility. Shortbow can also AoE poison and blast weakness. The bouncing projectiles are also helpful for certain niche situations. It’s a great alternative to a more damage focused set.

Let’s say Anet replaces Shortbow 5. With what? A targeted smoke field? Giving shortbow native stealth access. A teleport to an ally with a longer range? A skill that teleports enemies within the radius in random directions?

Then we’d still have to talk about whether and how to buff the rest of thief sustain to make up for the lost mobility.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

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