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Thoughts on today's "balance"?


mrauls.6519

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@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

People who think that Thief is weak and needs buffs, and that FB is still "king of the castle".

This forum is degeneracy.

So you're saying Thief is in a better place now then FB? Let's have a look.

Guard:PVE: PW DPS DH/Guard, Condi DPS FB, qHFB, qCFB and even PWqFB in some cases. A must for raids/fracts. Pick your poison u'll always be wanted and useful.PVP: Condi FB, Healer FB, Guard core condi/pw/healer variations+PW DH.WvW: obvious. Without FB WvW zerg is nothing.

Thief:PVE: PW DPS (benchmarks still in reality won't surpass a skilled PW DH/Condi FB player)PVP: The only meta build there ever was. With slight variatons of either SA or DA, Condi.WvW: kicked from squad cuz useless.

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@Dave.6819 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

People who think that Thief is weak and needs buffs, and that FB is still "king of the castle".

This forum is degeneracy.

So you're saying Thief is in a better place now then FB? Let's have a look.

Guard:PVE: PW DPS DH/Guard, Condi DPS FB, qHFB, qCFB and even PWqFB in some cases. A must for raids/fracts. Pick your poison u'll always be wanted.PVP: Condi FB, Healer FB, Guard core condi/pw/healer variations+PW DH.WvW: obvious. Without FB WvW zerg is nothing.

Thief:PVE: PW DPS (benchmarks still in reality won't surpass PW/Condi FB)PVP: The only meta build there ever was. With slight variatons of either SA or DA.WvW: kicked from squad cuz useless.

This is the PvP forum, not talking about WvW or PvE.

Also, not talking about Core or DH, talking about FB.

At best, FB is considered B tier (arguably now C tier), and is not considered a good choice for a proper team. Whereas, Thief is considered MANDATORY.

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@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

People who think that Thief is weak and needs buffs, and that FB is still "king of the castle".

This forum is degeneracy.

So you're saying Thief is in a better place now then FB? Let's have a look.

Guard:PVE: PW DPS DH/Guard, Condi DPS FB, qHFB, qCFB and even PWqFB in some cases. A must for raids/fracts. Pick your poison u'll always be wanted.PVP: Condi FB, Healer FB, Guard core condi/pw/healer variations+PW DH.WvW: obvious. Without FB WvW zerg is nothing.

Thief:PVE: PW DPS (benchmarks still in reality won't surpass PW/Condi FB)PVP: The only meta build there ever was. With slight variatons of either SA or DA.WvW: kicked from squad cuz useless.

This is the PvP forum, not talking about WvW or PvE.

Also, not talking about Core or DH, talking about FB.

At best, FB is considered B tier, and is not considered a good choice for a proper team. Whereas, Thief is considered MANDATORY.

I knew it's gonna be your argument. Welp if we're talkin "class balance" then let's have in mind all viable builds and how they stack up against each other in ALL game modes.

But sure. K.

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@Dave.6819 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

People who think that Thief is weak and needs buffs, and that FB is still "king of the castle".

This forum is degeneracy.

So you're saying Thief is in a better place now then FB? Let's have a look.

Guard:PVE: PW DPS DH/Guard, Condi DPS FB, qHFB, qCFB and even PWqFB in some cases. A must for raids/fracts. Pick your poison u'll always be wanted.PVP: Condi FB, Healer FB, Guard core condi/pw/healer variations+PW DH.WvW: obvious. Without FB WvW zerg is nothing.

Thief:PVE: PW DPS (benchmarks still in reality won't surpass PW/Condi FB)PVP: The only meta build there ever was. With slight variatons of either SA or DA.WvW: kicked from squad cuz useless.

This is the PvP forum, not talking about WvW or PvE.

Also, not talking about Core or DH, talking about FB.

At best, FB is considered B tier, and is not considered a good choice for a proper team. Whereas, Thief is considered MANDATORY.

I knew it's gonna be your argument. Welp if we're talkin "class balance" then let's have in mind all viable builds and how they stack up against each other in ALL game modes.

But sure. K.

How does that in any way disprove what I just said? PvE builds are totally irrelevant to PvP balance. And DH is totally irrelevant to discussion about FB.

You're actually going to justify your statement on the PvP forum that "FB is still king of the castle" by referencing DH builds in PvE. You have a serious lack of reasoning skills.

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@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

People who think that Thief is weak and needs buffs, and that FB is still "king of the castle".

This forum is degeneracy.

So you're saying Thief is in a better place now then FB? Let's have a look.

Guard:PVE: PW DPS DH/Guard, Condi DPS FB, qHFB, qCFB and even PWqFB in some cases. A must for raids/fracts. Pick your poison u'll always be wanted.PVP: Condi FB, Healer FB, Guard core condi/pw/healer variations+PW DH.WvW: obvious. Without FB WvW zerg is nothing.

Thief:PVE: PW DPS (benchmarks still in reality won't surpass PW/Condi FB)PVP: The only meta build there ever was. With slight variatons of either SA or DA.WvW: kicked from squad cuz useless.

This is the PvP forum, not talking about WvW or PvE.

Also, not talking about Core or DH, talking about FB.

At best, FB is considered B tier, and is not considered a good choice for a proper team. Whereas, Thief is considered MANDATORY.

I knew it's gonna be your argument. Welp if we're talkin "class balance" then let's have in mind all viable builds and how they stack up against each other in ALL game modes.

But sure. K.

How does that in any way disprove what I just said? PvE builds are totally irrelevant to PvP balance. And DH is totally irrelevant to discussion about FB.

You're actually going to justify your statement on the PvP forum that "FB is still king of the castle" by referencing DH builds in PvE. You have a serious lack of reasoning skills.

I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

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@Dave.6819 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

People who think that Thief is weak and needs buffs, and that FB is still "king of the castle".

This forum is degeneracy.

So you're saying Thief is in a better place now then FB? Let's have a look.

Guard:PVE: PW DPS DH/Guard, Condi DPS FB, qHFB, qCFB and even PWqFB in some cases. A must for raids/fracts. Pick your poison u'll always be wanted.PVP: Condi FB, Healer FB, Guard core condi/pw/healer variations+PW DH.WvW: obvious. Without FB WvW zerg is nothing.

Thief:PVE: PW DPS (benchmarks still in reality won't surpass PW/Condi FB)PVP: The only meta build there ever was. With slight variatons of either SA or DA.WvW: kicked from squad cuz useless.

This is the PvP forum, not talking about WvW or PvE.

Also, not talking about Core or DH, talking about FB.

At best, FB is considered B tier, and is not considered a good choice for a proper team. Whereas, Thief is considered MANDATORY.

I knew it's gonna be your argument. Welp if we're talkin "class balance" then let's have in mind all viable builds and how they stack up against each other in ALL game modes.

But sure. K.

How does that in any way disprove what I just said? PvE builds are totally irrelevant to PvP balance. And DH is totally irrelevant to discussion about FB.

You're actually going to justify your statement on the PvP forum that "FB is still king of the castle" by referencing DH builds in PvE. You have a serious lack of reasoning skills.

I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

And that if a class is dominating in PvP, but isn't good in PvE, then that's fine and PvP should just get used to it?

Yikes.

It's stuff like this that reminds me to be thankful that, as bad as ANet's balancing seems some times, it could be SO much worse with people like this involved.

"Hey, DH is really popular in PvE, better nerf Firebrand in PvP" - actual idiocy.

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@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

People who think that Thief is weak and needs buffs, and that FB is still "king of the castle".

This forum is degeneracy.

So you're saying Thief is in a better place now then FB? Let's have a look.

Guard:PVE: PW DPS DH/Guard, Condi DPS FB, qHFB, qCFB and even PWqFB in some cases. A must for raids/fracts. Pick your poison u'll always be wanted.PVP: Condi FB, Healer FB, Guard core condi/pw/healer variations+PW DH.WvW: obvious. Without FB WvW zerg is nothing.

Thief:PVE: PW DPS (benchmarks still in reality won't surpass PW/Condi FB)PVP: The only meta build there ever was. With slight variatons of either SA or DA.WvW: kicked from squad cuz useless.

This is the PvP forum, not talking about WvW or PvE.

Also, not talking about Core or DH, talking about FB.

At best, FB is considered B tier, and is not considered a good choice for a proper team. Whereas, Thief is considered MANDATORY.

I knew it's gonna be your argument. Welp if we're talkin "class balance" then let's have in mind all viable builds and how they stack up against each other in ALL game modes.

But sure. K.

How does that in any way disprove what I just said? PvE builds are totally irrelevant to PvP balance. And DH is totally irrelevant to discussion about FB.

You're actually going to justify your statement on the PvP forum that "FB is still king of the castle" by referencing DH builds in PvE. You have a serious lack of reasoning skills.

I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

Yikes.

My general statement was that some professions are over-nerfed while others remain over-tuned. And instead of continuously nerfing everything and killing fun maybe anet should buff up or find other ways to balance out professions. Cuz it lead us to this kind of state in the game. And yes im lookin at professions as a complete package. Not only PvP.

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@Dave.6819 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

People who think that Thief is weak and needs buffs, and that FB is still "king of the castle".

This forum is degeneracy.

So you're saying Thief is in a better place now then FB? Let's have a look.

Guard:PVE: PW DPS DH/Guard, Condi DPS FB, qHFB, qCFB and even PWqFB in some cases. A must for raids/fracts. Pick your poison u'll always be wanted.PVP: Condi FB, Healer FB, Guard core condi/pw/healer variations+PW DH.WvW: obvious. Without FB WvW zerg is nothing.

Thief:PVE: PW DPS (benchmarks still in reality won't surpass PW/Condi FB)PVP: The only meta build there ever was. With slight variatons of either SA or DA.WvW: kicked from squad cuz useless.

This is the PvP forum, not talking about WvW or PvE.

Also, not talking about Core or DH, talking about FB.

At best, FB is considered B tier, and is not considered a good choice for a proper team. Whereas, Thief is considered MANDATORY.

I knew it's gonna be your argument. Welp if we're talkin "class balance" then let's have in mind all viable builds and how they stack up against each other in ALL game modes.

But sure. K.

How does that in any way disprove what I just said? PvE builds are totally irrelevant to PvP balance. And DH is totally irrelevant to discussion about FB.

You're actually going to justify your statement on the PvP forum that "FB is still king of the castle" by referencing DH builds in PvE. You have a serious lack of reasoning skills.

I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

Yikes.

My general statement was that some professions are over-nerfed while others remain over-tuned. And instead of continuously nerfing everything and killing fun maybe anet should buff up or find other ways to balance out professions. Cuz it lead us to this kind of state in the game. And yes im lookin at professions as a complete package. Not only PvP.

Here's a remind of what you actually said, since you seem to have forgotten. This is not a general statement, this is a very specific statement about specific specialisations, and is all made in reference to PvP.

You can keep saying "complete package" and "not only PvP" as much as you want, that doesn't change the fact that this is the PvP forum, we are in a PvP balance thread, discussing PvP. The state of PvE is 100% irrelevant here. Because balance changes affecting PvP only affect PvP. Do you read the patch notes, where it stays stuff like "in PvP only" ? That's why PvE doesn't matter here.

@Dave.6819 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the
PvP
strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine
PvP
being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

We all can agree that
FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right?
Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall
PvP
population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

Why not just admit that, as far as PvP goes (which is what this forum, this thread, this discussion are all about), that this statement is incorrect, instead of trying to back-track from your own words, when it's there for all to see.

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@ollbirtan.2915 said:@Dave.6819 Your argument has just completely folded. Backtracking and brining up DH/PVE to prove that FB is meta in pvp? What? Would be great if you could play a couple of games as a FB in sPvP now, and then share your experience with us here.

Well i do talk about PvP but i always look at the whole spectrum too. Be it PvP or PvE or WvW. I just took FB as an example of a class that's doing great in PvP and even better in other modes for the longest time. I don't see any problem with that. If you're so unhappy about such example take Holo then. A class that's also doing great in PvP. So dont twist my words my idea was that maybe instead of constantly nerfing classes anet should focus on buffing other classes and stop dumbing down the game to the point where its not fun anymore. That's a very simple statement. I don't get it what's so hard to understand? That some classes are overperforming and some classes are not? You don't agree with that? All classes seem equal to you and balance is perfect?

Oh and yes i do play in PvP with FB. I'd say it's doing much better then Thief is. Especially now in 3v3 there's no denying that.

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@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Dave.6819 said:I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Math.5123 said:Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

@Math.5123 said:Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

@"Ghos.1326" said:There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

and continuing on the above thought, @"Thornwolf.9721" is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

@"Ghos.1326" said:Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

"AOE is fine if the game has healers" xdd , symbol guardian is a sidenoder not a build u play at mid , symbols were not op because they hit multiple people . Symbol was a tanky build played as1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge because its radius were the same as the point with the extra radius. Guess u dont know what sidenoder means cuz u have cero clue about how pvp works.

But now u will say something like mememe u dont know what i am saying im refering to a more godlike knowledge u wont undertand ;(

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Dave.6819 said:I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

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@"wevh.2903" said:"AOE is fine if the game has healers" xdd , symbol guardian is a sidenoder not a build u play at mid , symbols were not op because they hit multiple people . Symbol was a tanky build played at 1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge because its radius were the same as the point with the extra radius. Guess u dont know what sidenoder means cuz u have cero clue about how pvp works.

But now u will say something like mememe u dont know what i smam saying im refering to a more godlike knowledge u wont undertand ;(

I was talking about AOE not specifically about symbol gaurdian in spvp...but okay keep on trying to distort my responses to your agenda....

I could dismantle this entire comment about how nonsense it is, but i don't want to waste my time, so i'll just say this :

Symbol was a tanky build played at 1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge

Symbols have been the DEFINING feature of the guardian class since the dawn of the game. So now you want to change something, that's been just fine in the game since forever, because you can't dodge something that doesn't do damage anyway... chuckles like i said earlier, if you had healers in this game mode, AOE would have at least 1 proper counter...That's why symbol guardian was never that big of a deal before the removal of healers pre-feb patch.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Dave.6819" said:I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

As i've said. It's always like that and it's always a dead end to get into these discussions. People always distort your words and completely forget the main idea someone is trying to convey. Completely ignoring the main issue and trying to "catch you on your own words" that are irrelevant to that issue. There will always be biased people towards some professions and looking over the years thief was one of those who had most of hate. And people will still ask for nerfs no matter how bad it gets. I think it's best to just stop completely with the feedback and let Anet handle their game. But handling it maybe in another way.. cuz nerfs are just killing the fun and that's that.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"wevh.2903" said:"AOE is fine if the game has healers" xdd , symbol guardian is a sidenoder not a build u play at mid , symbols were not op because they hit multiple people . Symbol was a tanky build played at 1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge because its radius were the same as the point with the extra radius. Guess u dont know what sidenoder means cuz u have cero clue about how pvp works.

But now u will say something like mememe u dont know what i smam saying im refering to a more godlike knowledge u wont undertand ;(

I was talking about AOE not specifically about symbol gaurdian in spvp...but okay keep on trying to distort my responses to your agenda....

I could dismantle this entire comment about how nonsense it is, but i don't want to waste my time, so i'll just say this :

Symbol was a tanky build played at 1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge

Symbols have been the DEFINING feature of the guardian class since the dawn of the game. So now you want to change something, that's been just fine in the game since forever, because you can't dodge something that doesn't do damage anyway...
chuckles
like i said earlier, if you had healers in this game mode, AOE would have at least 1 proper counter...That's why symbol guardian was never that big of a deal before the removal of healers pre-feb patch.

@"wevh.2903" said:"AOE is fine if the game has healers" xdd , symbol guardian is a sidenoder not a build u play at mid , symbols were not op because they hit multiple people . Symbol was a tanky build played at 1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge because its radius were the same as the point with the extra radius. Guess u dont know what sidenoder means cuz u have cero clue about how pvp works.

But now u will say something like mememe u dont know what i smam saying im refering to a more godlike knowledge u wont undertand ;(

I was talking about AOE not specifically about symbol gaurdian in spvp...but okay keep on trying to distort my responses to your agenda....

I could dismantle this entire comment about how nonsense it is, but i don't want to waste my time, so i'll just say this :

Symbol was a tanky build played at 1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge

Symbols have been the DEFINING feature of the guardian class since the dawn of the game. So now you want to change something, that's been just fine in the game since forever, because you can't dodge something that doesn't do damage anyway...
chuckles
like i said earlier, if you had healers in this game mode, AOE would have at least 1 proper counter...That's why symbol guardian was never that big of a deal before the removal of healers pre-feb patch.

The one here trying to distort other posts are you."spaming aoe u couldnt dodge because its radius were the same as the point with the extra radius " . You didnt quote "Due to extra radius " . At first this trait was added at 2015 not 2012. Anet deleted the trait wich gived symbols an extra radius . I didnt say nothing about how symbols are since 2012 ^^ .

You quoted my comment complaining about aoe as if someone was complaining about aoe at a team fight . You keep saying something about "healers" cuz like i said u have cero clue about a sidenoder is.

Guardian symbol was a 1v1 build , u habe no support or healer or whatever at a 1v1 , build was strong after feb because sidenoder meta switched to tank due to damage nerf. After february there is not enough damage to kill a bunk core guard running mender or sage at a 1v1 while core guard kills you spaming symbols on node and outsustaing you You can only match that build with another tank one but i bet u dont eveb know what build is it cuz its not common at gold3. Again those symbols were buffed by trait due to be as big as the point is . Normal symbol radius arent bigger than a point. So build basically forced u to eat all symbol ticks but now anet nerfed the trait so u can simply walk out of symbol and still be on node. Buid isnt a problem at 2v2 or 3v3 cuz u dont need to tank the node at a 1v1 , while at a 1v1 u need to stay on node cuz if u lose the node against a tank u lose the match.

Again symbol damage or core symbol radius wasnt a problem . U literally dismantle urself saying i complaing about something that was there since the start of the game. Also ofc symbol does ridiculius dmg at a mid team fight but i am talking about standing on point .Also mention before feb patch build was bad cuz u couldnt face tank all dmg with a mender amulet .

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Dave.6819 said:I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

Nobody is distorting his words, he's trying to backtrack on what he said when called out on his fallacious argument by bringing up builds used in other game modes to claim FB was good in sPvP.

This is a sPvP forum, nobody cares about other game modes and in sPvP, FB is terrible while thief is mandatory. So no, we cannot agree FB is king of the castle because it's not good in sPvP, regardless of how good it is in any other game mode. Thief is meta in sPvP, regardless of how good it is in other game modes. 3v3 might change thiefs position in a tier list for sPvP, but FB is still trash and not viable.

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@Dave.6819 said:

@Dave.6819 said:I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

As i've said. It's always like that and it's always a dead end to get into these discussions. People always distort your words and completely forget the main idea someone is trying to convey. Completely ignoring the main issue and trying to "catch you on your own words" that are irrelevant to that issue. There will always be biased people towards some professions and looking over the years thief was one of those who had most of hate. And people will still ask for nerfs no matter how bad it gets. I think it's best to just stop completely with the feedback and let Anet handle their game. But handling it maybe in another way.. cuz nerfs are just killing the fun and that's that.

Thief isn't bad in PvP. You claimed FB was good in PvP and thief was bad by citing PvE builds and you got called put on it. Just take the L and move on, quit trying to salvage it. FB is bad in PvP, thief isn't.

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@ollbirtan.2915 said:

@"dronte.3416" said:I mean you can't argue that the nerfs were very much spot on. 80% of the forums were complaining about ...

Sorry buddy, I stopped reading your post after this. The game should never be "balanced" based on complaints from vocal minority on the forums. Period.

While in general I agree with you, you should read on then because what you call vocal minority opinion was very closely matched by all the top streamers as well this time. There were times times when these two were super far from each other (looking at you mirage), but I think we can all agree that this time core symbol guard, holo and renegade were all overperforming on ALL levels.

The nerfs are good and were much needed Specifically, which nerf do you disagree with?

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@CutesySylveon.8290 said:This is a sPvP forum, nobody cares about other game modes and in sPvP, FB is terrible while thief is mandatory. So no, we cannot agree FB is king of the castle >because it's not good in sPvP, regardless of how good it is in any other game mode.Thief is meta in sPvP, regardless of how good it is in other game modes. 3v3 might change thiefs position in a tier list for sPvP, but FB is still trash and not viable.

You are clearly missing the argument. He is not talking about about whether thief is viable in spvp, he was talking about the NUMBER OF VIABLE BUILDS THIEF HAS IN ALL GAME MODES IN COMPARISON TO GUARDIAN ACROSS ALL GAME MODES.

Sorry but not everyone wants to play DP Daredevil to be relevant on thief.

Edit: Also, DP daredevil still sucs anyway...unless you are edison or sindrener, your gonna get farmed using this build and you'll only be useful as a decap/evade bot.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:This is a sPvP forum, nobody cares about other game modes and in sPvP, FB is terrible while thief is mandatory. So no, we cannot agree FB is king of the castle >because it's not good in sPvP, regardless of how good it is in any other game mode.Thief is meta in sPvP, regardless of how good it is in other game modes. 3v3 might change thiefs position in a tier list for sPvP, but FB is still trash and not viable.

You are clearly missing the argument. He is not talking about about whether thief is viable in spvp, he was talking about the
NUMBER OF VIABLE BUILDS THIEF HAS IN ALL GAME MODES IN COMPARISON TO GUARDIAN ACROSS ALL GAME MODES.

Sorry but not everyone wants to play DP Daredevil to be relevant on thief.

Edit: Also, DP daredevil still sucs anyway...unless you are edison or sindrener, your gonna get farmed using this build and you'll only be useful as a decap/evade bot.

We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

This looks a lot like PvP talk to me, and that he's putting FB in the same league as Holo and that's so ridiculous it's unreal. PvE and WvW builds were brought up because FB is viable there and he was called on it being trash in pvp vs thief being meta. There are no viable FB builds in PvP, you're gimping your team if you bring one. You only do the same with thief if you have more than one or are bad at the class.

Edit: linking on mobile is a pain but the last paragraph is his quote, not yours.

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@"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

Dave said : We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

This looks a lot like PvP talk to me, and that he's putting FB in the same league as Holo and that's so ridiculous it's unreal.

He said FB "was and probably still is..." because FB/Scourge was THE meta for almost 2 years prior to February. Is it really so hard to keep up with the historical picture of the game? Or did people forget what was going on pre-cmc-patch?

Also he's not comparing FB and Holo either...he's pointing out how we shouldn't be nerfing classes because the nerfs are making it less enjoyable to play by giving each class less builds to play with. He doesn't want to see that happen to both FB and Holo mains. That's why he said "Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind?..".

Reading comprehension is hard isn't it? What other sentences do i have to walk people through?

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You are clearly missing the argument. He is not talking about about whether thief is viable in spvp, he was talking about the NUMBER OF VIABLE BUILDS THIEF HAS IN ALL GAME MODES IN COMPARISON TO GUARDIAN ACROSS ALL GAME MODES.

he was very clearly talking about FB vs thief. He literally used the words FB. and the discussion is on pvp not wvw and pve. these are literally the PVP forums. the thread is literally on a PvP balance patch. What even??

Sorry but not everyone wants to play DP Daredevil to be relevant on thief.

what???? You don't want to play DP daredevil? I don't want to play support tempest. I can play a fresh air tempest if I want. Is it viable? maybe, maybe not (depends of team comp honestly). You can also play deadeye and core condi thief. Like what even is the point of this sentence at the moment tbh? DP is a meta thief build. Auramancer is the meta tempest build. Meta builds will always be more relevant than other options. Meta builds are "Meta" because of the over arching game strategies/modes and other classes skill sets. Meta builds aren't just meta because of the class in itself. they are meta because these builds synergize with the game mode and a variety of options presented by other enemy classes. Asking for more thief builds to be meta at this point is asking for a rework of more than just the thief. Tempest support became meta because of overall stability nerfs and nerfs to % revive traits. It didn't become meta because anet reviewed tempest on its own and reworked the class.

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Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics and numbers so obviously overtuned you'd think they must have realized it by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes and some more rebalancing.

If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

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