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I miss having dmg


xan.8549

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So there i was derpin around smc, when a lil minstrils or nomads idk, scrapper shows up. Ive got the most offensive food on "Cilantro Lime Sous-Vide Steaks, Writ of Masterful Strength and im on berserker gunflame with scholar runes all zerk no hybrid no mix matchy stuff all zerk. The guy decides to humor me, and let me wail on him pop sig of fury and unblockable, go in for the gunflame traited for garanteed crit and..... I get a 2127. I load up using the heal get a 1717. Is this really how we're gunna play gw2 now? I wailed on him for about 3 minutes and he never got below 70% hp, why is this the direction of the game. No why has this been the direction of the game since 2014. is the point to get where there is no dmg and we just /emote each other? Build campfires and just sit around? Theres other games that do a much better job of this. I get it its 2020 and no one wants to feel like there a bad player and all but this is just rediculous I think toughness and dmg midigation is literally out of control now, and its fully in favor of Mega blobs that are 90% supports. It takes player skill completely out of the equation. And trust me there comes a point when even the mega blobbers are gunna sit in discord together and think thier amazing bc thier unkillable and be like this games too ez. Look at all the guilds, ENTIRE guilds that have left the game. Gw2 ur taking too much player skill out of the equation, and believe me the moment a better option with similar gameplay comes out everyone's gunna jump ship. People need to adapt, not just wear tankier crap. Plz take the training wheels off so we can all have fun again. Thats all im asking for. Now dont get me wrong some stuff was HILARIOUSLY broken b4, like revenant 5, Im personally glad it got nerfed into being un-usable but the problem was mainly the way it 1 shot literally anything. That is not skillful gameplay, anyone can 1 shot something, theres no counterplay to it at all, "oops one shot u lol ur bad" -no not advocating this at all. But for a fully decked out zerker to get no where literally against a tanky dude thats literally by himself??? Idk, this is gunna fall on deaf ears and get no where but whatever I tried I gess. GG fun game =/

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Agreed.

Removing our ability to burst the cheesy tank specs has hurt WvW drastically in solo/small scale. No surprise there is tons of them floating around WvW now.

Sometimes I sneak into my screenshot folder and look at my wonderful glass core 18k+ killshots, I giggle a bit, and then close the folder and sigh.................

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It is only the boons. I ran into a minstrel tempest, trailblazer revenant duo today. These two could sustain a 2v4 against builds like yours forever and even down someone from time to time, that couldn't cleanse the 20 torment applied by the the rev. I disengaged, switched to my spite curses all corruption template and jumped into the face of that tempest and downed him in 5 seconds while the rev couldn't do anything (resistance corruption ftw!).

Like I said already in the pvp subsection a few days ago:The damage in the game is more than enough to kill a high toughness+vita build. But when this build has additional permanent protection, vigor, regeneration, swiftness, some aegis and resistance... and of course the 10% damage reduction food (which should not exist!)... then this becomes a problem.

ANet overnerfed boon corruption in the feb25 patch. They should not have touched it at all. They might have thought it would be too stong. That was a wrong assumption.

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The key is to complain LOUDLY. That’s what the other folks did that didn’t like the damage. Now they can survive better on their builds of choice. Seriously, if everybody complains enough then protection will be NERFED or damage will be buffed and so on and so on and will go back-and-forth back-and-forth. All under the guise of balance.

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Presses two keys

'GAMES TAKEN ALL SKILL OUT WHY AREN'T MY TWO BUTTONS WORKING!?'

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKQAQhRAO2W6tKA-zVIYRUwXG1mAVUA2ONUYBD-w1.54 Power mod1035-1265 Weapon Strength (1150 average)3277 Power (No might)

5,223,210 damage minimum. 6,383,924 damage maximum.

The following damage modifiers: Scholar (1.05), Force (1.05), Impact (1.03), Burst Mastery (1.07), Berserker's Power (1.21), Bloody Roar (1.15), Warrior's Sprint (1.03), Peak Performance (1.03), Critical Hit (2.52) for a total damage modifier of 4.52. We've left off Impact Sigil (1.07), Peak Performance (1.07), Destruction of Empower (1.xx), and vulnerability.

23,608,909 damage minimum. 28,855,336 damage maximum.

Scrapper with shield, full ascended nomads, rune of the dolyak, and max stacks of sigil of momentum has 3988 armor.Damage dealt = damage divided by armor.

5,920 damage minimum. 7,235 damage maximum.

If you get 25 stacks of might somehow (really not that hard as a warrior with 3 free utilities)7,727 damage minimum. 9,444 damage maximum. Whilst still holding to easy realistic conditions.

If you hit him for 2k, I think the issue is you are not nearly as skilled as you think you are and were getting carried by damage being stupidly easy to play. I'm sorry the pendulum has swung the other way a little bit and you actually have to try.

Edit: Since I know someone will probably bring it up, I'm aware protection and damage dampener probably played a factor.

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This is amusing to read, cause I play full minstrel scrapper primarily, and I still routinely get hit for 10k+ by gun flame (backstab too, but this is a war thread). Even without making mistakes, I get CC'd and the near instakilled by warriors all the time. Heal scrapper has 1 stunbreak and the only stability is an F skill from a gyro. I would make sure you have the gear on you think you do, because just about every class has a build that can 100-0 a full minstrel scrapper in under 3 seconds, especially if you catch them just after using their utilities.

That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps. Single target hps should match single target dps if the game is balanced correctly. Now, if that hps can tank several full dps, than you have a problem, which yes, this game has some of that.

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@God.2708 said:7,727 damage minimum. 9,444 damage maximum. Whilst still holding to easy realistic conditions.This brings the bunker scrapper from 100 to 70% health, like he said. :p

Pretty poor for such a warrior build, don't you think? Maybe he exaggerated with his 2k example, but in general he is right.

Side note: You forgot the damage reduction food in your calculation.

Side note 2: Before anyone here comes to the wrong conclusion from that example: the problem is not that warrior deals not enough damage (the damage is fine!), but that bunker builds are too strong (too many defensive boons!).

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@God.2708 said:7,727 damage minimum. 9,444 damage maximum. Whilst still holding to easy realistic conditions.This brings the bunker scrapper from 100 to 70% health, like he said. :p

Pretty poor for such a warrior build, don't you think? Maybe he exaggerated with his 2k example, but in general he is right.

Side note: You forgot the damage reduction food in your calculation.

Side note 2: Before anyone here comes to the wrong conclusion from that example: the problem is not that warrior deals not enough damage (the damage is fine!), but that bunker builds are too strong (too many defensive boons!).

The maximum hit would bring it to ~55%. But yes there are ways the scrapper can reduce the damage more, there are also ways the berserker can deal more.

Throw Bolas -> On my Mark! -> Sundering Leap would mean the maximum hit becomes 13,515. Cast it twice and... oh look the scrapper only has 24500 HP. So unless he definitely has protection up he's dead.

And it would be outgoing healing food unless it's a literal troll build (not that this scrapper build isn't already troll for running nomads and sigil of momentum). And if someone wants to absolutely maximize cheese 100% all in on their survivability, why should you be able to kill them easily in a 1v1? They certainly aren't doing anything to you, or much else for anyone else.

Edit: This is to say nothing of the dozens of other builds that wouldn't even survive one of those gunflames.

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@God.2708 said:Throw Bolas -> On my Mark! -> Sundering Leap would mean the maximum hit becomes 13,515. Cast it twice and... oh look the scrapper only has 24500 HP. So unless he definitely has protection up he's dead.Okay okay, but all this stuff coming together is a lot more unlikely than that the scrapper just dodges the killshot.

Anyway the typical cheese combo in smallscale these days is scrapper + fb or scrapper + tempest and two trailblazer damage dealers like torment spamming rev or burn spamming guard. If you bring only damage dealers such a combo is unbeatable and also a mirror match will last forever due to cleanses. Their damage reduction is insane. You have to bring at least (!) one necro that does slot all corruptions he can get. I am really happy I main that class currently as I have to carry a lot of smallscale fights with corrupts at the moment.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@God.2708 said:Throw Bolas -> On my Mark! -> Sundering Leap would mean the maximum hit becomes 13,515. Cast it twice and... oh look the scrapper only has 24500 HP. So unless he definitely has protection up he's dead.Okay okay, but all this stuff coming together is a lot more unlikely than that the scrapper just dodges the killshot.

Anyway the typical cheese combo in smallscale these days is scrapper + fb or scrapper + tempest and two trailblazer damage dealers like torment spamming rev or burn spamming guard. If you bring only damage dealers such a combo is unbeatable and also a mirror match will last forever due to cleanses. Their damage reduction is insane. You have to bring at least (!) one necro that does slots all corruptions he can get. I am really happy I main that class currently as I have to carry a lot of smallscale fights with corrupts at the moment.

Throw Bolas immobilizes to prevent the dodge, but yes. I'll grant that the combat is more than just throw skills into a text box on a forum and saying 'Look he's dead'! It sounds to me like combat would then entail you attempting to bait his dodges and setting him up for the one shot, and if you fall into his rhythm of spamming random damage in hopes to overcome his sustain he won't die. This sounds fascinating, complex, and skillful if I'm being honest. Much more so than 'Lol I berserk and hit gunflame and you're dead'.

Apparently he just needs to play a ranger instead of a berserker though. That's one shotting tanky people rumor has it.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps.

nope

That's what balance is. Single target hps should equal single target dps. I get that most people don't actually want balance. They think that zerk dps should insta-kill everything in the game. But that isn't balance.

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@Ubi.4136 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps.

nope

That's what balance is. Single target hps should equal single target dps. I get that most people don't actually want balance. They think that zerk dps should insta-kill everything in the game. But that isn't balance.

Just wrong lol. So you basically want stalemate wars? Why should a minstrel build, going full tank 0 risk, be rewarded as much if not more than a full zerk 100% risk build? Also there is no single target healing build.

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@Ubi.4136 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps.

nope

That's what balance is. Single target hps should equal single target dps. I get that most people don't actually want balance. They think that zerk dps should insta-kill everything in the game. But that isn't balance.

No.One of the core aspects of GW2 combat is the ability - and necessity - to actively avoid attacks in order to survive. A healer should not remove this aspect. Also stalemates are bad. Death is a desireable outcome of PvP encounters.

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Damage should scale based on proximity and targets. Highest damage being closest and single target. This is where the game lost the plot. Melee damage that requires up close application should really pressure tank builds and require tank builds to employ dodges and such rather than just passive defenses. Ranged damage especially ranged AoE damage should take a significant hit unless it roots the caster.

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There's a subtle difference between stalemating through green numbers and stalemating through utilization of all defenses. A 'Tank' should be able to nullify/counter a DPS assuming both are played equally through blocks, dodges, heals, mitigation, and interrupts/CC. It's interesting and skillful in a 1v1 for it to become a game of trying to waste an opponents CDs. If a tank can nullify a DPS without having to utilize all of those against some builds, you have a meta shift. If you have multiple tanks that can nullify ALL DPS without having to utilize all of those, you have a balance problem. I think there is a trend towards the latter, but we are not there yet.

Tank builds can be beaten by certain DPS classes, just not all DPS classes. The larger issue is usually that of mobility in combination with tankiness. Some tanks full committed to defense simply aren't killable while trying to run because of things like stealth or large quantities of leaps. Realistically, the 'no risk' a full tank build should have is that it takes a long time for it to finish a fight, which means it's vulnerable to new opponents arriving and swaying the odds. That's why despite tankiness being so obtuse glassy quick killers are still the preferred roaming class. Their target pool has just shrunk some, which I don't see an issue with.

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@Ubi.4136 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps.

nope

That's what balance is. Single target hps should equal single target dps. I get that most people don't actually want balance. They think that zerk dps should insta-kill everything in the game. But that isn't balance.

no one would be able to take objectives let alone even down each other in fights. what you're asking for is to replace dodge with raw heals.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps.

nope

That's what balance is. Single target hps should equal single target dps. I get that most people don't actually want balance. They think that zerk dps should insta-kill everything in the game. But that isn't balance.

no one would be able to take objectives let alone even down each other in fights. what you're asking for is to replace dodge with raw heals.

I'm not though. This game has crap single target heal skills. You have to rely on dodges, positioning, every single utility, F skills, plus healing to stay alive. That said, if a player specs full minstrel and does all the above correctly, yes, they should be able to stay alive indefinitely against a single zerk dps.

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@Ubi.4136 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps.

nope

That's what balance is. Single target hps should equal single target dps. I get that most people don't actually want balance. They think that zerk dps should insta-kill everything in the game. But that isn't balance.

no one would be able to take objectives let alone even down each other in fights. what you're asking for is to replace dodge with raw heals.

I'm not though. This game has kitten single target heal skills. You have to rely on dodges, positioning, every single utility, F skills, plus healing to stay alive. That said, if a player specs full minstrel and does all the above correctly, yes, they should be able to stay alive indefinitely against a single zerk dps.

Stale "fights" are not healthy for the game and neither are builds with the sole purpose of stalemating encounters. The concept of a "tank" has no place in PvP game modes.

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@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps.

nope

That's what balance is. Single target hps should equal single target dps. I get that most people don't actually want balance. They think that zerk dps should insta-kill everything in the game. But that isn't balance.

no one would be able to take objectives let alone even down each other in fights. what you're asking for is to replace dodge with raw heals.

I'm not though. This game has kitten single target heal skills. You have to rely on dodges, positioning, every single utility, F skills, plus healing to stay alive. That said, if a player specs full minstrel and does all the above correctly, yes, they should be able to stay alive indefinitely against a single zerk dps.

Stale "fights" are not healthy for the game and neither are builds with the sole purpose of stalemating encounters. The concept of a "tank" has no place in PvP game modes.

Concept of a tank has plenty of place in a PvP game mode, especially one relating to large scale encounters.

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@God.2708 said:Concept of a tank has plenty of place in a PvP game mode, especially one relating to large scale encounters.

Except a tank is useless in GW2 and in particular in WvW.

Tanks in PvE tank by holding aggro. Doesn't work in WvW because when I see I can't get real damage thru, I ignore you and target the next softer sucker.

Tanks per the classic D&D trope don't happen in WvW because there is no collision detection. You can not make a line to hold with tanks. You hold the line by making RED CIRCLES OF DEATH THE ENEMY CAN NOT CROSS. And in this meta, you do that with Firebrands and Scourges.

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@Straegen.2938 said:Damage should scale based on proximity and targets. Highest damage being closest and single target. This is where the game lost the plot. Melee damage that requires up close application should really pressure tank builds and require tank builds to employ dodges and such rather than just passive defenses. Ranged damage especially ranged AoE damage should take a significant hit unless it roots the caster.

I can already see the whining and complaining all over the thief forum on how they ruined the game because they can't one-shot people from 1200 range away in stealth permanently.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@God.2708 said:Concept of a tank has plenty of place in a PvP game mode, especially one relating to large scale encounters.

Except a tank is useless in GW2 and in particular in WvW.

Tanks in PvE tank by holding aggro. Doesn't work in WvW because when I see I can't get real damage thru, I ignore you and target the next softer sucker.

Tanks per the classic D&D trope don't happen in WvW because there is no collision detection. You can not make a line to hold with tanks. You hold the line by making RED CIRCLES OF DEATH THE ENEMY CAN NOT CROSS. And in this meta, you do that with Firebrands and Scourges.

That's simply a paradigm from how you are defining tank. Can use the term support if that makes you feel more comfortable, but I don't know how you can say WvW doesn't have tanks when that's what this very topic is complaining about. If it obligates you to ignore him and target the next soft sucker, that means the 'tank' is free to fulfill whatever purpose it has set out to do, whether that be disrupt, heal, or deal (less) damage.

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I would be the first to advocate that the amount of damage pre " Competitive content update " was excessive. The damage got so high that a person has absolutely no ability to respond to an attack . But when the damage and health reduction occurred some classes were already in a deficit in many ways and although the damage reduction was welcome , the ANET developers neglected to take into consideration the defensive capabilities and sustain of some classes was compatible to the High damage of before but excessive now. The Engi and the Ele fit in this category and many ways the specialization of the Druid . Also some skills managed to escape " Competitive content update " by not getting the appropriate damage downgrade as they should have . The Reverent and Reaper are prime examples with skills that did not get appropriate downgrades .
Stability , Stealth , Condition Removal , Boon Stacking , Boon duration , Boon removal and Control effects for many classes were already on par or lacking prior to the " Competitive content update " . But went largely unnoticed because at the time these skills took a back seat to many builds because they were unnecessary or could never successfully be incorporated into a working build .The damage reduction was a good first start . But the developers have much more work to do . I'm willing to wait for such changes to occur as long as theirs some acknowledgement that many of the existing problems are being addressed .This is where most of the frustration is coming from for many people when it feels like we're all banging our heads against a wall of silence .

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