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Why SnowCrows is destroying Raiding


Blumpf.2518

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Take a utility like Dolyak Stance as example. It grants a -33% damage vs. power and condi that stacks rather than being overlapped by protection, removes all movement impairing condis, and is also a personal stun break. Dolyak Stance easily doubles sustain, not in terms of health bar or ability to consistently take damage to the face, but rather for when it matters. A lot of these "1shot mechanics" in raids are actually not 1shot mechanics at all, they are survivable. It's just that everyone is trying to run glass cannon DPS builds that make those mechanics look like 1shots. When players bring something like Dolyak Stance and save it only for the use of a "oh kitten button" they survive through those mechanics rather than wiping to them.Anyone capable of timing those utilities right to survive said mechanics is good enough to actually do those mechanics well and not suffer that damage at all. Consequently, if you need that signet to survive, you probably aren't skilled enough to utilize it well anyway.

lol you guys crack me up, you really do. As if there weren't a difference between having 1 health and 100,000 health.

And INB4 "well bring more healers likes snowcrows says" because no matter how many healers you have, healing only ever comes AFTER a hit is absorbed. So glass cannons with low health and low damage mitigation tooling will get 1shot by a single hit and there won't be time to heal them. <- People are seriously overlooking this fact. Players need to be able to take the hit to be able to get healed after the hit. That's what skills like Dolyak Stance are good at offering newer/casual players.There aren't many such mechanics at all. Most damage you get is either pressure damage, something you can simply walk out of, or percentage-based damage that bypasses things like protection and dolyak stance damage reduction. Most of so-called oneshot damage is in that last category (and is often not a real oneshot - for example VG damage from greens mechanic is around 80% of your maximum hp). Hint: against that kind of damage, instead of damage reduction you're better investing in things like blocks/evades, or barriers (that generally are
not
counted in that hp percentage calculation). Additional points for that skill working for whole group (again, barriers, and for example guardian's Aegis). And, if you haven;t noticed, taking
those
types of utility is often quite much suggested for individual encounters.

Yup but that isn't always true and not everyone has extra blocks as utilities. You take what you get and you learn to put it to use. A lot of what you're saying is still coming from the standpoint of "A veteran who knows how to run the raids" and you guys just seriously are very very stuck in this mind frame.

Look man, at one point of GW2, I had my gf playing, our friend Keri, Keri's 65 year old mom, and even Keri's friend Kate who is also a mom. I had this guild of moms & grandmothers playing the game with me who were simply never going to be able to play at the level required to make a snowcrow meta work. It wasn't going to happen. So as their organizer for these activities that they wanted to do, I had to find creative ways to pad them up so it was possible for them to go into a raid and survive long enough so they weren't getting bored and disheartened, while 5 vets pretty much carried them into their single time completions which is all they wanted.

I know you'll come back at try to find some kind of an argument in this, but until you have had to perform such a task as this, I don't think you're really understanding the true pros & cons of a safe meta for players like that. Of course we tried to get them to learn normal builds first, it didn't work. Of course we tried to only slightly pad them up at first, doesn't work. Then we had to just configure sustainy styled builds for them, so that they only REALLY needed to focus on remembering a few important mechanics per boss to avoid. And then they were so tanky that the other mechanics mostly didn't matter if they were caught in them all so long as healing was continued to cycle. <- This made it possible for them to casually join and participate and clear the raids, without it needing to be a dedicated scheduled activity, which mothers and grandmothers and busy people in general usually aren't interested in.

Bringing something like Dolyak Stance is not only doubling personal sustain factor almost quite literally, but it is also removing 1shot mechanics that don't need to be 1shots.In reality, it does neither. It just gives you a false sense of security.

And you guys keep defending your side of this debacle with "Well DPS kills faster so that means less chances of mistakes happening". Again, bologna. In the case of taking Dolyak Stance for a 2% to 3% drop in personal DPS, you're looking at:
  • Pros - Dolyak Stance gonna grant you an "oh kitten button" to ensure you stay on your feet and aren't a drag to your team
  • Cons - Losing the 2% to 3% off top damage might add +10 seconds to your clear time. That 10s is not a large enough margin of time to worry about "mistakes being made because DPS was too slow" to justify losing Dolyak Stance.

Just about every class/build has some utility skill like this, that when taken it allows them to negate most 1shot effects and/or avoid them completely, for some simple drop in 3% top DPS or lower. These kinds of utility skills are good for new or casual players to bring.The new or casual players aren't good enough to use those skills well, because that would require a good knowledge of the fight. Knowledge that can be utilized far better by doing mechanics well, and avoiding that damage in the first place.

You are doing a lot of thinking based on pure theory, but you clearly lack enough raid experience to understand why in reality it doesn't work like that.

You are still very very clearly misunderstanding a couple important things due to your years of snowcrow bandwagoning:
  1. Oh am I speaking from pure theory? lololol My friend, it's hardly theory. There are plenty of player names I could give to you right now, who will give testimony to the 4 mom crew that I carried through every mode in this game and the tribulation difficulty level that it was to do. Including getting them involved in spvp teams. I am not speaking from "theory" but rather years of experience doing exactly what I have been talking about in this thread, with real mothers & grandmothers, who have real children, who don't the time or interest to dedicate to invested levels of training. What I am explaining to you is true and works. You say that I was speaking from theory, but I have to ask you this: "Have you ever even tried what I have been explaining?" Maybe you are the one speaking from theory & assumption.
  2. You say that "I lack enough raid experience to understand anything" which is besides the point entirely. The point is that I wouldn't need raid experience to clear the raids in the way that Amanda, Keri, Kate and Clo had cleared them. And that is the ultimate point that you guys on that side of the debacle seem to be missing.

Don't misunderstand the point of this argument.

I did not say that these safe builds are better or more efficient or effective than what is listed on snowcrows.

I simply said that what is listed on snowcrows doesn't work for everyone, and that there are better ways to aim at a successful clear for that demographic of players.

Ok so how would a 10 man mom team do?Thats why people are disagreeing with you this wont help raid particiation at all since you need 50% of the team to do 90% of the work.

Oh you'd be surprised how well they'd do, after they've been able to get in and clear let's say even VG a few times and learn it with a lot of padding on their faces, so they can familiarize themselves with what's going on first, before having them run normal styled builds. What I'm talking about here is when you're essentially training people. Some people can go right in with snocrow builds and remember everything in a raid encounter after watching a youtube video just once and then actually experiencing for the first time just once. Other people take longer to learn, and some people don't really learn well at all from watching videos. They need to BE THERE and have someone in a discord with them or possibly in the same room with them, for the information to stick through more of an organic osmosis of actually being in the raid and participating in it. <- These kinds of players learn just fine if they can get in there and be allowed to run something with 10% less DPS and double the sustain. After a few VG clears as example, even a 65 year old grandmother will remember mechanics and she'll be ready to up the DPS. They just need to be allowed to do that.

Again, don't misunderstand the point of what I have been saying. For some reason you guys keep leaning back to "Snowcrows is the best most effective way" which is a moot point because I never said it wasn't. What I have been saying from the beginning here, is how that ideology is suffocating participation rates. With the snocrow ideology, players are forced to take a running start and jump really high up to grab onto this ledge where they then need to be able to pull themselves up with their own strength to get up on the ledge to even be able to stand on it to begin participation. Not all gamers are strong enough to be able to do this, most of them aren't really. Most of them lack the inherent mechanical strengths as well as sweaty try hard to care. What I've been saying is that if a safe-meta were tolerated and accepted, this provides a staircase up to that ledge, so players like Amanda, Keri, Kate, & Clo, have a method to GET to the point that they could match the mechanical strengths & understanding to run normal builds. People just need to chill out and let them play safe for awhile while they learn.

And before you toss all the usual yada yada at what I'm saying, it's quite clear that everyone agrees that participation is dangerously low within the raiding community. I'm simply pointing out that not only are players not interested in trying to make that running jump to be able to participate, but they couldn't even if they tried. I'm simply pointing out that this ideology you've all been tossing at me here that: "It's wrong to play outside of snowcrows" is going to need to stop at some point, and the raiding community is going to need to build a staircase of entry and begin inviting players up to their level with open arms rather than pushing them down from the ledge with elite judgement, if they want participation in raids to grow or remain relatively active at all.

Going into year 9, you know that this is true.

Aint this what training raid squads already do?People dont want this shinanigans in their clearing squads tho witch is understandable. I hope.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Sacrificing a utility slot to achieve some kind of 2% to 3% increase in DPS, rather than bringing a utility that literally doubles personal sustain is not efficient. It's a ballsy tactic that should only be used by players who can run the said given content perfectly without ever making mistakes.Hint: most of the utilities that "literally double personal sustain" do not actually increase personal sustain in any impactful way. And i don't think any utility actually
literally
doubles personal sustain even in theory (much less in practice). On the other hand sometimes lacking even that sliver of a dps more
can
result in a party wipe.

Bologna.

Take a utility like Dolyak Stance as example. It grants a -33% damage vs. power and condi that stacks rather than being overlapped by protection, removes all movement impairing condis, and is also a personal stun break. Dolyak Stance easily doubles sustain, not in terms of health bar or ability to consistently take damage to the face, but rather for when it matters. A lot of these "1shot mechanics" in raids are actually not 1shot mechanics at all, they are survivable. It's just that everyone is trying to run glass cannon DPS builds that make those mechanics look like 1shots. When players bring something like Dolyak Stance and save it only for the use of a "oh kitten button" they survive through those mechanics rather than wiping to them. And INB4 "well bring more healers likes snowcrows says" because no matter how many healers you have, healing only ever comes AFTER a hit is absorbed. So glass cannons with low health and low damage mitigation tooling will get 1shot by a single hit and there won't be time to heal them. <- People are seriously overlooking this fact. Players need to be able to take the hit to be able to get healed after the hit. That's what skills like Dolyak Stance are good at offering newer/casual players.

Bringing something like Dolyak Stance is not only doubling personal sustain factor almost quite literally, but it is also removing 1shot mechanics that don't need to be 1shots. When players can survive the first hit they can be healed after, and that's what happens. Trying to bring Frost Trap for some kind of 2% 3% increase in persona DPS over Dolyak Stance is a silly notion.

And you guys keep defending your side of this debacle with "Well DPS kills faster so that means less chances of mistakes happening". Again, bologna. In the case of taking Dolyak Stance for a 2% to 3% drop in personal DPS, you're looking at:
  • Pros - Dolyak Stance gonna grant you an "oh kitten button" to ensure you stay on your feet and aren't a drag to your team
  • Cons - Losing the 2% to 3% off top damage might add +10 seconds to your clear time. That 10s is not a large enough margin of time to worry about "mistakes being made because DPS was too slow" to justify losing Dolyak Stance. Having Dolyak Stance throughout the entire rest of the raid boss clear time before that last 10 seconds is clearly a quality of life safety net worth bringing for any player who isn't running with an elite crew who clears every raid boss perfectly.

Just about every class/build has some utility skill like this, that when taken it allows them to negate most 1shot effects and/or avoid them completely, for some simple drop in 3% top DPS or lower. These kinds of utility skills are good for new or casual players to bring. Which those kinds of selections, they can at least survive and stay on their feet while not being a drag to their team, and
this gives them time to learn mechanics.
Again, some kind of 2% 3% drop in DPS is diminutive and might add +10s to the end of a raid clear time, but it allows those new players the ability to stay alive to get there to that last 10s.

If I was PUGing, I'd much rather have a group of players with Dolyak Stances who stayed alive in a raid that took 40s longer, than a group of new/casual players who insisted on using full glass cannon DPS builds who weren't ready to be doing that who couldn't survive any of the phases and we had to keep restarting because of wipes.

why take defensive skill that are useless as it is a struggle to loose hp in a fight with 2 healer? better going with that extra 2/3% dps that actually help you.If you are loosing health it means you do something wrong and in most cases the extra sustain won't be any help anyway.raid are an endgame content which imply you know where is the movement and dodge keybind. if you are unable to do so i'd recommand personnal story/world boss/meta event as they are pretty much failproof regardless what build/armor you're running.and please support your claim that your idea is better by offering facts such as log because so far i see only some random number thrown with no testing at all...So can you please post your pSLB golem with 36.86k DPS when running dolyak?

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:And before you toss all the usual yada yada at what I'm saying, it's quite clear that everyone agrees that participation is dangerously low within the raiding community. I'm simply pointing out that not only are players not interested in trying to make that running jump to be able to participate, but they couldn't even if they tried. I'm simply pointing out that this ideology you've all been tossing at me here that: "It's wrong to play outside of snowcrows" is going to need to stop at some point, and the raiding community is going to need to build a staircase of entry and begin inviting players up to their level with open arms rather than pushing them down from the ledge with elite judgement, if they want participation in raids to grow or remain relatively active at all.

Raid participation is low as many people are not willing to learn and improve their gameplay.Mosts player rather rather quit than get it done and it's seen in any pug training: people joining for 2 try and they leave, not a good way to get it done.you want more player in raid? sur it's easy: remove mechs and reduces bosses to 100k hp participation will be much higher. will it be an improvement? no imo

@"Blumpf.2518" said:Yesterday i watched a group doing Adina in a Stream. Boonthief, RenegadeHealAlac, Soulbeast, BS, 6x Dragonhunter.Speedkill setup with over 30k DPS for each damagedealer. They had 1 Pillarspawn each phase, so high was the DPS.Should have been an easy bosskill.But what happened? They wiped about 10 times with their speedkill setup before finally killing the boss and guess why?No Boon removal - Retaliation killed the dragonhunters within an instant.Low Heal - Damage to group could not be healed completely.Or people just walked into Adinas sandray attack. Their "skill" was only maxDPS based, but movement "skill" wasnt there.

Switching a Dragonhunter for a 2nd healer, maybe a necro who does shields on 10 people and brings projectile blocking poison cloud and boon removal or a chrono who just keeps 3 swordclones on Adina that remove Boons and brings a focus for projectile reflect wouldve solved their problem. The DPS would still have been superhigh to still only have 1 Pillar per phase. But instead of first trying the boss with a safe setup they wasted so much time with their speedkill setup and had a lot of unneccessary wipes and that only because they chose DPS over more sustain.

And thats what snowcrows is promoting, that DPS is better than everything else, which leads to situations like this.

speedclear comp are not runned in pug so out of subject. mosts pugs run 2 healer when speedclear run 0 healer at adina. but it was the dh fault as he should have use lithany which would have maintain him full hp through retal

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@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Sacrificing a utility slot to achieve some kind of 2% to 3% increase in DPS, rather than bringing a utility that literally doubles personal sustain is not efficient. It's a ballsy tactic that should only be used by players who can run the said given content perfectly without ever making mistakes.Hint: most of the utilities that "literally double personal sustain" do not actually increase personal sustain in any impactful way. And i don't think any utility actually
literally
doubles personal sustain even in theory (much less in practice). On the other hand sometimes lacking even that sliver of a dps more
can
result in a party wipe.

Bologna.

Take a utility like Dolyak Stance as example. It grants a -33% damage vs. power and condi that stacks rather than being overlapped by protection, removes all movement impairing condis, and is also a personal stun break. Dolyak Stance easily doubles sustain, not in terms of health bar or ability to consistently take damage to the face, but rather for when it matters. A lot of these "1shot mechanics" in raids are actually not 1shot mechanics at all, they are survivable. It's just that everyone is trying to run glass cannon DPS builds that make those mechanics look like 1shots. When players bring something like Dolyak Stance and save it only for the use of a "oh kitten button" they survive through those mechanics rather than wiping to them. And INB4 "well bring more healers likes snowcrows says" because no matter how many healers you have, healing only ever comes AFTER a hit is absorbed. So glass cannons with low health and low damage mitigation tooling will get 1shot by a single hit and there won't be time to heal them. <- People are seriously overlooking this fact. Players need to be able to take the hit to be able to get healed after the hit. That's what skills like Dolyak Stance are good at offering newer/casual players.

Bringing something like Dolyak Stance is not only doubling personal sustain factor almost quite literally, but it is also removing 1shot mechanics that don't need to be 1shots. When players can survive the first hit they can be healed after, and that's what happens. Trying to bring Frost Trap for some kind of 2% 3% increase in persona DPS over Dolyak Stance is a silly notion.

And you guys keep defending your side of this debacle with "Well DPS kills faster so that means less chances of mistakes happening". Again, bologna. In the case of taking Dolyak Stance for a 2% to 3% drop in personal DPS, you're looking at:
  • Pros - Dolyak Stance gonna grant you an "oh kitten button" to ensure you stay on your feet and aren't a drag to your team
  • Cons - Losing the 2% to 3% off top damage might add +10 seconds to your clear time. That 10s is not a large enough margin of time to worry about "mistakes being made because DPS was too slow" to justify losing Dolyak Stance. Having Dolyak Stance throughout the entire rest of the raid boss clear time before that last 10 seconds is clearly a quality of life safety net worth bringing for any player who isn't running with an elite crew who clears every raid boss perfectly.

Just about every class/build has some utility skill like this, that when taken it allows them to negate most 1shot effects and/or avoid them completely, for some simple drop in 3% top DPS or lower. These kinds of utility skills are good for new or casual players to bring. Which those kinds of selections, they can at least survive and stay on their feet while not being a drag to their team, and
this gives them time to learn mechanics.
Again, some kind of 2% 3% drop in DPS is diminutive and might add +10s to the end of a raid clear time, but it allows those new players the ability to stay alive to get there to that last 10s.

If I was PUGing, I'd much rather have a group of players with Dolyak Stances who stayed alive in a raid that took 40s longer, than a group of new/casual players who insisted on using full glass cannon DPS builds who weren't ready to be doing that who couldn't survive any of the phases and we had to keep restarting because of wipes.

why take defensive skill that are useless as it is a struggle to loose hp in a fight with 2 healer? better going with that extra 2/3% dps that actually help you.If you are loosing health it means you do something wrong and in most cases the extra sustain won't be any help anyway.raid are an endgame content which imply you know where is the movement and dodge keybind. if you are unable to do so i'd recommand personnal story/world boss/meta event as they are pretty much failproof regardless what build/armor you're running.and please support your claim that your idea is better by offering facts such as log because so far i see only some random number thrown with no testing at all...So can you please post your golem with 36.86k DPS when running dolyak?

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:And before you toss all the usual yada yada at what I'm saying, it's quite clear that everyone agrees that participation is dangerously low within the raiding community. I'm simply pointing out that not only are players not interested in trying to make that running jump to be able to participate, but they couldn't even if they tried. I'm simply pointing out that this ideology you've all been tossing at me here that: "It's wrong to play outside of snowcrows" is going to need to stop at some point, and the raiding community is going to need to build a staircase of entry and begin inviting players up to their level with open arms rather than pushing them down from the ledge with elite judgement, if they want participation in raids to grow or remain relatively active at all.

Raid participation is low as many people are not willing to learn and improve their gameplay.Mosts player rather rather quit than get it done and it's seen in any pug training: people joining for 2 try and they leave, not a good way to get it done.you want more player in raid? sur it's easy: remove mechs and reduces bosses to 100k hp participation will be much higher. will it be an improvement? no imo

Wow there partner ! Raid participation is low , because :a) Clearing squads , don't want noobies , while training squads does the easiest bosses .b) When they gather 200 Raid Currency and give a shot to join a clearing squad (because the LFG 90% consist of them ) and die/don't do enough dps in some unknown boss that haven't seen before , they get kicked .c) They lack experience and tactics from each boss , to form their own group and teach the others(this circle of life is missing , preventing Raids from blooming)

Hopefully some day , ArenaNet will give some 1-2 Raiding Currency per week to ''Strikes'' or PvP Chests, so these kind of threads stop poping up :)

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@Luci.7018 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Sacrificing a utility slot to achieve some kind of 2% to 3% increase in DPS, rather than bringing a utility that literally doubles personal sustain is not efficient. It's a ballsy tactic that should only be used by players who can run the said given content perfectly without ever making mistakes.Hint: most of the utilities that "literally double personal sustain" do not actually increase personal sustain in any impactful way. And i don't think any utility actually
literally
doubles personal sustain even in theory (much less in practice). On the other hand sometimes lacking even that sliver of a dps more
can
result in a party wipe.

Bologna.

Take a utility like Dolyak Stance as example. It grants a -33% damage vs. power and condi that stacks rather than being overlapped by protection, removes all movement impairing condis, and is also a personal stun break. Dolyak Stance easily doubles sustain, not in terms of health bar or ability to consistently take damage to the face, but rather for when it matters. A lot of these "1shot mechanics" in raids are actually not 1shot mechanics at all, they are survivable. It's just that everyone is trying to run glass cannon DPS builds that make those mechanics look like 1shots. When players bring something like Dolyak Stance and save it only for the use of a "oh kitten button" they survive through those mechanics rather than wiping to them. And INB4 "well bring more healers likes snowcrows says" because no matter how many healers you have, healing only ever comes AFTER a hit is absorbed. So glass cannons with low health and low damage mitigation tooling will get 1shot by a single hit and there won't be time to heal them. <- People are seriously overlooking this fact. Players need to be able to take the hit to be able to get healed after the hit. That's what skills like Dolyak Stance are good at offering newer/casual players.

Bringing something like Dolyak Stance is not only doubling personal sustain factor almost quite literally, but it is also removing 1shot mechanics that don't need to be 1shots. When players can survive the first hit they can be healed after, and that's what happens. Trying to bring Frost Trap for some kind of 2% 3% increase in persona DPS over Dolyak Stance is a silly notion.

And you guys keep defending your side of this debacle with "Well DPS kills faster so that means less chances of mistakes happening". Again, bologna. In the case of taking Dolyak Stance for a 2% to 3% drop in personal DPS, you're looking at:
  • Pros - Dolyak Stance gonna grant you an "oh kitten button" to ensure you stay on your feet and aren't a drag to your team
  • Cons - Losing the 2% to 3% off top damage might add +10 seconds to your clear time. That 10s is not a large enough margin of time to worry about "mistakes being made because DPS was too slow" to justify losing Dolyak Stance. Having Dolyak Stance throughout the entire rest of the raid boss clear time before that last 10 seconds is clearly a quality of life safety net worth bringing for any player who isn't running with an elite crew who clears every raid boss perfectly.

Just about every class/build has some utility skill like this, that when taken it allows them to negate most 1shot effects and/or avoid them completely, for some simple drop in 3% top DPS or lower. These kinds of utility skills are good for new or casual players to bring. Which those kinds of selections, they can at least survive and stay on their feet while not being a drag to their team, and
this gives them time to learn mechanics.
Again, some kind of 2% 3% drop in DPS is diminutive and might add +10s to the end of a raid clear time, but it allows those new players the ability to stay alive to get there to that last 10s.

If I was PUGing, I'd much rather have a group of players with Dolyak Stances who stayed alive in a raid that took 40s longer, than a group of new/casual players who insisted on using full glass cannon DPS builds who weren't ready to be doing that who couldn't survive any of the phases and we had to keep restarting because of wipes.

why take defensive skill that are useless as it is a struggle to loose hp in a fight with 2 healer? better going with that extra 2/3% dps that actually help you.If you are loosing health it means you do something wrong and in most cases the extra sustain won't be any help anyway.raid are an endgame content which imply you know where is the movement and dodge keybind. if you are unable to do so i'd recommand personnal story/world boss/meta event as they are pretty much failproof regardless what build/armor you're running.and please support your claim that your idea is better by offering facts such as log because so far i see only some random number thrown with no testing at all...So can you please post your golem with 36.86k DPS when running dolyak?

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:And before you toss all the usual yada yada at what I'm saying, it's quite clear that everyone agrees that participation is dangerously low within the raiding community. I'm simply pointing out that not only are players not interested in trying to make that running jump to be able to participate, but they couldn't even if they tried. I'm simply pointing out that this ideology you've all been tossing at me here that: "It's wrong to play outside of snowcrows" is going to need to stop at some point, and the raiding community is going to need to build a staircase of entry and begin inviting players up to their level with open arms rather than pushing them down from the ledge with elite judgement, if they want participation in raids to grow or remain relatively active at all.

Raid participation is low as many people are not willing to learn and improve their gameplay.Mosts player rather rather quit than get it done and it's seen in any pug training: people joining for 2 try and they leave, not a good way to get it done.you want more player in raid? sur it's easy: remove mechs and reduces bosses to 100k hp participation will be much higher. will it be an improvement? no imo

Wow there partner ! Raid participation is low , because :a) Clearing squads , don't want noobies , while training squads does the easiest bosses .b) When they gather 200 Raid Currency and give a shot to join a clearing squad (because the LFG 90% consist of them )and die/don't do enough dps in some unknown boss that haven't seen before , they get kicked .c) They lack experience and tactics from each boss , to form they own group and teach the others(this circle of life is missing , preventing Raids from blooming)

Hopefully some day , ArenaNet will give some 1-2 Raiding Currency per week to ''Strikes'', so these kind of threads stop poping up :)

I started last year and got no issue with all that because i didn't go with a leech mindset but with a student one.-I didn't attempt to join group with more exp than I unless i was sure I had descent knowledge of my class and the boss.-I joined some dicord community where I got good advices and training, and had the opportunity to estimate boss dificulty by the classification thatt was present.-I practiced my classe 1h here and there on golem-I learnt what was expected out of a group so i could do my own training groups-As i wanted to do more i also joined a lot of pug training and stayed for hours to improve and sucessfully kill the boss-Even though I ended up with 17 boss/event done out of the 26 on my second week I continue to join trainings on bosses that were already cleared-funny enough I have almost never been kick even though my dps or boon wasn't great back then. and rarely see people being kick for low dps unless they are doing close to inexistant dps.

hopefully some day player will realise that if they were spending half the energy they waste on complaining about raid they could actually get it done

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@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Sacrificing a utility slot to achieve some kind of 2% to 3% increase in DPS, rather than bringing a utility that literally doubles personal sustain is not efficient. It's a ballsy tactic that should only be used by players who can run the said given content perfectly without ever making mistakes.Hint: most of the utilities that "literally double personal sustain" do not actually increase personal sustain in any impactful way. And i don't think any utility actually
literally
doubles personal sustain even in theory (much less in practice). On the other hand sometimes lacking even that sliver of a dps more
can
result in a party wipe.

Bologna.

Take a utility like Dolyak Stance as example. It grants a -33% damage vs. power and condi that stacks rather than being overlapped by protection, removes all movement impairing condis, and is also a personal stun break. Dolyak Stance easily doubles sustain, not in terms of health bar or ability to consistently take damage to the face, but rather for when it matters. A lot of these "1shot mechanics" in raids are actually not 1shot mechanics at all, they are survivable. It's just that everyone is trying to run glass cannon DPS builds that make those mechanics look like 1shots. When players bring something like Dolyak Stance and save it only for the use of a "oh kitten button" they survive through those mechanics rather than wiping to them. And INB4 "well bring more healers likes snowcrows says" because no matter how many healers you have, healing only ever comes AFTER a hit is absorbed. So glass cannons with low health and low damage mitigation tooling will get 1shot by a single hit and there won't be time to heal them. <- People are seriously overlooking this fact. Players need to be able to take the hit to be able to get healed after the hit. That's what skills like Dolyak Stance are good at offering newer/casual players.

Bringing something like Dolyak Stance is not only doubling personal sustain factor almost quite literally, but it is also removing 1shot mechanics that don't need to be 1shots. When players can survive the first hit they can be healed after, and that's what happens. Trying to bring Frost Trap for some kind of 2% 3% increase in persona DPS over Dolyak Stance is a silly notion.

And you guys keep defending your side of this debacle with "Well DPS kills faster so that means less chances of mistakes happening". Again, bologna. In the case of taking Dolyak Stance for a 2% to 3% drop in personal DPS, you're looking at:
  • Pros - Dolyak Stance gonna grant you an "oh kitten button" to ensure you stay on your feet and aren't a drag to your team
  • Cons - Losing the 2% to 3% off top damage might add +10 seconds to your clear time. That 10s is not a large enough margin of time to worry about "mistakes being made because DPS was too slow" to justify losing Dolyak Stance. Having Dolyak Stance throughout the entire rest of the raid boss clear time before that last 10 seconds is clearly a quality of life safety net worth bringing for any player who isn't running with an elite crew who clears every raid boss perfectly.

Just about every class/build has some utility skill like this, that when taken it allows them to negate most 1shot effects and/or avoid them completely, for some simple drop in 3% top DPS or lower. These kinds of utility skills are good for new or casual players to bring. Which those kinds of selections, they can at least survive and stay on their feet while not being a drag to their team, and
this gives them time to learn mechanics.
Again, some kind of 2% 3% drop in DPS is diminutive and might add +10s to the end of a raid clear time, but it allows those new players the ability to stay alive to get there to that last 10s.

If I was PUGing, I'd much rather have a group of players with Dolyak Stances who stayed alive in a raid that took 40s longer, than a group of new/casual players who insisted on using full glass cannon DPS builds who weren't ready to be doing that who couldn't survive any of the phases and we had to keep restarting because of wipes.

why take defensive skill that are useless as it is a struggle to loose hp in a fight with 2 healer? better going with that extra 2/3% dps that actually help you.If you are loosing health it means you do something wrong and in most cases the extra sustain won't be any help anyway.raid are an endgame content which imply you know where is the movement and dodge keybind. if you are unable to do so i'd recommand personnal story/world boss/meta event as they are pretty much failproof regardless what build/armor you're running.and please support your claim that your idea is better by offering facts such as log because so far i see only some random number thrown with no testing at all...So can you please post your golem with 36.86k DPS when running dolyak?

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:And before you toss all the usual yada yada at what I'm saying, it's quite clear that everyone agrees that participation is dangerously low within the raiding community. I'm simply pointing out that not only are players not interested in trying to make that running jump to be able to participate, but they couldn't even if they tried. I'm simply pointing out that this ideology you've all been tossing at me here that: "It's wrong to play outside of snowcrows" is going to need to stop at some point, and the raiding community is going to need to build a staircase of entry and begin inviting players up to their level with open arms rather than pushing them down from the ledge with elite judgement, if they want participation in raids to grow or remain relatively active at all.

Raid participation is low as many people are not willing to learn and improve their gameplay.Mosts player rather rather quit than get it done and it's seen in any pug training: people joining for 2 try and they leave, not a good way to get it done.you want more player in raid? sur it's easy: remove mechs and reduces bosses to 100k hp participation will be much higher. will it be an improvement? no imo

Wow there partner ! Raid participation is low , because :a) Clearing squads , don't want noobies , while training squads does the easiest bosses .b) When they gather 200 Raid Currency and give a shot to join a clearing squad (because the LFG 90% consist of them )and die/don't do enough dps in some unknown boss that haven't seen before , they get kicked .c) They lack experience and tactics from each boss , to form they own group and teach the others(this circle of life is missing , preventing Raids from blooming)

Hopefully some day , ArenaNet will give some 1-2 Raiding Currency per week to ''Strikes'', so these kind of threads stop poping up :)

I started last year and got no issue with all that because i didn't go with a leech mindset but with a student one.-I didn't attempt to join group with more exp than I unless i was sure I had descent knowledge of my class and the boss.-I joined some dicord community where I got good advices and training, and had the opportunity to estimate boss dificulty by the classification thatt was present.-I practiced my classe 1h here and there on golem-I learnt what was expected out of a group so i could do my own training groups-As i wanted to do more i also joined a lot of pug training and stayed for hours to improve and sucessfully kill the boss-Even though I ended up with 17 boss/event done out of the 26 on my second week I continue to join trainings on bosses that were already cleared-funny enough I have almost never been kick even though my dps or boon wasn't great back then. and rarely see people being kick for low dps unless they are doing close to inexistant dps.

hopefully some day player will realise that if they were spending half the energy they waste on complaining about raid they could actually get it done

All went good for you for being invited to a pug training group to practice .How about creating a practice group now that you know the tactics and guide 9 others newly players from the Training Raids that have collected 250 Raid Currency , rather than keep saying in this thread :''its their problem that don't want to improve/they want to leach ''

Name a date and time in this thread for a Training Run with you as a Leader , after you respond to me:)(lets hope that the answer won't be '' its not my job'' . Otherwise its the invisible wall at ''c'' part we talked about)

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@Luci.7018 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Sacrificing a utility slot to achieve some kind of 2% to 3% increase in DPS, rather than bringing a utility that literally doubles personal sustain is not efficient. It's a ballsy tactic that should only be used by players who can run the said given content perfectly without ever making mistakes.Hint: most of the utilities that "literally double personal sustain" do not actually increase personal sustain in any impactful way. And i don't think any utility actually
literally
doubles personal sustain even in theory (much less in practice). On the other hand sometimes lacking even that sliver of a dps more
can
result in a party wipe.

Bologna.

Take a utility like Dolyak Stance as example. It grants a -33% damage vs. power and condi that stacks rather than being overlapped by protection, removes all movement impairing condis, and is also a personal stun break. Dolyak Stance easily doubles sustain, not in terms of health bar or ability to consistently take damage to the face, but rather for when it matters. A lot of these "1shot mechanics" in raids are actually not 1shot mechanics at all, they are survivable. It's just that everyone is trying to run glass cannon DPS builds that make those mechanics look like 1shots. When players bring something like Dolyak Stance and save it only for the use of a "oh kitten button" they survive through those mechanics rather than wiping to them. And INB4 "well bring more healers likes snowcrows says" because no matter how many healers you have, healing only ever comes AFTER a hit is absorbed. So glass cannons with low health and low damage mitigation tooling will get 1shot by a single hit and there won't be time to heal them. <- People are seriously overlooking this fact. Players need to be able to take the hit to be able to get healed after the hit. That's what skills like Dolyak Stance are good at offering newer/casual players.

Bringing something like Dolyak Stance is not only doubling personal sustain factor almost quite literally, but it is also removing 1shot mechanics that don't need to be 1shots. When players can survive the first hit they can be healed after, and that's what happens. Trying to bring Frost Trap for some kind of 2% 3% increase in persona DPS over Dolyak Stance is a silly notion.

And you guys keep defending your side of this debacle with "Well DPS kills faster so that means less chances of mistakes happening". Again, bologna. In the case of taking Dolyak Stance for a 2% to 3% drop in personal DPS, you're looking at:
  • Pros - Dolyak Stance gonna grant you an "oh kitten button" to ensure you stay on your feet and aren't a drag to your team
  • Cons - Losing the 2% to 3% off top damage might add +10 seconds to your clear time. That 10s is not a large enough margin of time to worry about "mistakes being made because DPS was too slow" to justify losing Dolyak Stance. Having Dolyak Stance throughout the entire rest of the raid boss clear time before that last 10 seconds is clearly a quality of life safety net worth bringing for any player who isn't running with an elite crew who clears every raid boss perfectly.

Just about every class/build has some utility skill like this, that when taken it allows them to negate most 1shot effects and/or avoid them completely, for some simple drop in 3% top DPS or lower. These kinds of utility skills are good for new or casual players to bring. Which those kinds of selections, they can at least survive and stay on their feet while not being a drag to their team, and
this gives them time to learn mechanics.
Again, some kind of 2% 3% drop in DPS is diminutive and might add +10s to the end of a raid clear time, but it allows those new players the ability to stay alive to get there to that last 10s.

If I was PUGing, I'd much rather have a group of players with Dolyak Stances who stayed alive in a raid that took 40s longer, than a group of new/casual players who insisted on using full glass cannon DPS builds who weren't ready to be doing that who couldn't survive any of the phases and we had to keep restarting because of wipes.

why take defensive skill that are useless as it is a struggle to loose hp in a fight with 2 healer? better going with that extra 2/3% dps that actually help you.If you are loosing health it means you do something wrong and in most cases the extra sustain won't be any help anyway.raid are an endgame content which imply you know where is the movement and dodge keybind. if you are unable to do so i'd recommand personnal story/world boss/meta event as they are pretty much failproof regardless what build/armor you're running.and please support your claim that your idea is better by offering facts such as log because so far i see only some random number thrown with no testing at all...So can you please post your golem with 36.86k DPS when running dolyak?

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:And before you toss all the usual yada yada at what I'm saying, it's quite clear that everyone agrees that participation is dangerously low within the raiding community. I'm simply pointing out that not only are players not interested in trying to make that running jump to be able to participate, but they couldn't even if they tried. I'm simply pointing out that this ideology you've all been tossing at me here that: "It's wrong to play outside of snowcrows" is going to need to stop at some point, and the raiding community is going to need to build a staircase of entry and begin inviting players up to their level with open arms rather than pushing them down from the ledge with elite judgement, if they want participation in raids to grow or remain relatively active at all.

Raid participation is low as many people are not willing to learn and improve their gameplay.Mosts player rather rather quit than get it done and it's seen in any pug training: people joining for 2 try and they leave, not a good way to get it done.you want more player in raid? sur it's easy: remove mechs and reduces bosses to 100k hp participation will be much higher. will it be an improvement? no imo

Wow there partner ! Raid participation is low , because :a) Clearing squads , don't want noobies , while training squads does the easiest bosses .b) When they gather 200 Raid Currency and give a shot to join a clearing squad (because the LFG 90% consist of them )and die/don't do enough dps in some unknown boss that haven't seen before , they get kicked .c) They lack experience and tactics from each boss , to form they own group and teach the others(this circle of life is missing , preventing Raids from blooming)

Hopefully some day , ArenaNet will give some 1-2 Raiding Currency per week to ''Strikes'', so these kind of threads stop poping up :)

I started last year and got no issue with all that because i didn't go with a leech mindset but with a student one.-I didn't attempt to join group with more exp than I unless i was sure I had descent knowledge of my class and the boss.-I joined some dicord community where I got good advices and training, and had the opportunity to estimate boss dificulty by the classification thatt was present.-I practiced my classe 1h here and there on golem-I learnt what was expected out of a group so i could do my own training groups-As i wanted to do more i also joined a lot of pug training and stayed for hours to improve and sucessfully kill the boss-Even though I ended up with 17 boss/event done out of the 26 on my second week I continue to join trainings on bosses that were already cleared-funny enough I have almost never been kick even though my dps or boon wasn't great back then. and rarely see people being kick for low dps unless they are doing close to inexistant dps.

hopefully some day player will realise that if they were spending half the energy they waste on complaining about raid they could actually get it done

All went good for you for being invited to a pug training group to practice .How about creating a practice group now that you know the tactics and guide 9 others newly players from the Training Raids that have collected 250 Raid Currency , rather than keep saying in this thread :''its their problem that don't want to improve/they want to leach ''

Name a date and time in this thread for a Training Run with you as a Leader , after you respond to me:)Or are you busy , bickering with me ?

Well see, therein lies one of the problems inflicted by the snowcrow mentality.

In all seriousness, most players would rather attempt to lie with fake pings to get into groups than honestly go join a training run. When you actually try to organize a learning experience for new players, I'm surprised at how few show up and even more so by the complete lack of dedication to stick around. It rarely goes well unless you're working with personal invites or more intimate guild joins like what Fangoth experienced.

It was never snowcrows intention, I'm sure, that such a resource would create certain sociological effects. But it does create these kinds of effects. Now new players don't trust each other because everyone is telling them how inadequate they are. This effect makes it so people who should be training together do not train together. They only want to train when the bulk of the squad is experienced and allowing them to do so. This creates a disparity between the purpose of the public LFG and privately organized guilds. Now the LFG is only mostly usable for veterans, and private guilds are mostly being used to train people. That actually doesn't make sense when you stop to think about it. And these are the types of reasons why even thinking about wanting to become involved in the raid community is nothing but a large hassle.

This isn't entirely the fault of an elite meta forming and the website resource in which it is taught. It is also a problem on the community's end. Really it's a 50/50 kind of thing we have going on. Newer players need to recognize their inexperience and start playing together for a learning process instead of expecting to get into experienced groups, but elite veterans and even the snowcrow resources needs to recognize that elite expectation staples are not helping matters. Nothing could be more unmotivating for wanting to stick around the game mode.

To me, this isn't about "who's right or wrong" "is snowcrows really at fault" but more so this is about what can be done to bring in raid participation. Right now the learning curve & what is expected for new players showing up on the scene now in 2020 is just too high to be reasonable. Something needs to be done to make it easier for newer players to just get their feet into the raid so they can feel the content and begin learning it without it being a massively try hard scheduled organization.

As I've said before, the real difficulty of the raid mode is not the raid bosses, but rather it is fighting through the social stigma of the community to even be able to find people who will let you participate. No game mode should feel that way, and it certainly isn't confusing to me as to why players are no longer sticking around to learn. They don't stick around because it is a ridiculous notion that they would keep needing to "prove themselves" over and over when they already know they are capable of completing the content, yet this is never good enough, and people are wanting them to aim at perfections if they are allowed to participate at all.

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@Luci.7018 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Sacrificing a utility slot to achieve some kind of 2% to 3% increase in DPS, rather than bringing a utility that literally doubles personal sustain is not efficient. It's a ballsy tactic that should only be used by players who can run the said given content perfectly without ever making mistakes.Hint: most of the utilities that "literally double personal sustain" do not actually increase personal sustain in any impactful way. And i don't think any utility actually
literally
doubles personal sustain even in theory (much less in practice). On the other hand sometimes lacking even that sliver of a dps more
can
result in a party wipe.

Bologna.

Take a utility like Dolyak Stance as example. It grants a -33% damage vs. power and condi that stacks rather than being overlapped by protection, removes all movement impairing condis, and is also a personal stun break. Dolyak Stance easily doubles sustain, not in terms of health bar or ability to consistently take damage to the face, but rather for when it matters. A lot of these "1shot mechanics" in raids are actually not 1shot mechanics at all, they are survivable. It's just that everyone is trying to run glass cannon DPS builds that make those mechanics look like 1shots. When players bring something like Dolyak Stance and save it only for the use of a "oh kitten button" they survive through those mechanics rather than wiping to them. And INB4 "well bring more healers likes snowcrows says" because no matter how many healers you have, healing only ever comes AFTER a hit is absorbed. So glass cannons with low health and low damage mitigation tooling will get 1shot by a single hit and there won't be time to heal them. <- People are seriously overlooking this fact. Players need to be able to take the hit to be able to get healed after the hit. That's what skills like Dolyak Stance are good at offering newer/casual players.

Bringing something like Dolyak Stance is not only doubling personal sustain factor almost quite literally, but it is also removing 1shot mechanics that don't need to be 1shots. When players can survive the first hit they can be healed after, and that's what happens. Trying to bring Frost Trap for some kind of 2% 3% increase in persona DPS over Dolyak Stance is a silly notion.

And you guys keep defending your side of this debacle with "Well DPS kills faster so that means less chances of mistakes happening". Again, bologna. In the case of taking Dolyak Stance for a 2% to 3% drop in personal DPS, you're looking at:
  • Pros - Dolyak Stance gonna grant you an "oh kitten button" to ensure you stay on your feet and aren't a drag to your team
  • Cons - Losing the 2% to 3% off top damage might add +10 seconds to your clear time. That 10s is not a large enough margin of time to worry about "mistakes being made because DPS was too slow" to justify losing Dolyak Stance. Having Dolyak Stance throughout the entire rest of the raid boss clear time before that last 10 seconds is clearly a quality of life safety net worth bringing for any player who isn't running with an elite crew who clears every raid boss perfectly.

Just about every class/build has some utility skill like this, that when taken it allows them to negate most 1shot effects and/or avoid them completely, for some simple drop in 3% top DPS or lower. These kinds of utility skills are good for new or casual players to bring. Which those kinds of selections, they can at least survive and stay on their feet while not being a drag to their team, and
this gives them time to learn mechanics.
Again, some kind of 2% 3% drop in DPS is diminutive and might add +10s to the end of a raid clear time, but it allows those new players the ability to stay alive to get there to that last 10s.

If I was PUGing, I'd much rather have a group of players with Dolyak Stances who stayed alive in a raid that took 40s longer, than a group of new/casual players who insisted on using full glass cannon DPS builds who weren't ready to be doing that who couldn't survive any of the phases and we had to keep restarting because of wipes.

why take defensive skill that are useless as it is a struggle to loose hp in a fight with 2 healer? better going with that extra 2/3% dps that actually help you.If you are loosing health it means you do something wrong and in most cases the extra sustain won't be any help anyway.raid are an endgame content which imply you know where is the movement and dodge keybind. if you are unable to do so i'd recommand personnal story/world boss/meta event as they are pretty much failproof regardless what build/armor you're running.and please support your claim that your idea is better by offering facts such as log because so far i see only some random number thrown with no testing at all...So can you please post your golem with 36.86k DPS when running dolyak?

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:And before you toss all the usual yada yada at what I'm saying, it's quite clear that everyone agrees that participation is dangerously low within the raiding community. I'm simply pointing out that not only are players not interested in trying to make that running jump to be able to participate, but they couldn't even if they tried. I'm simply pointing out that this ideology you've all been tossing at me here that: "It's wrong to play outside of snowcrows" is going to need to stop at some point, and the raiding community is going to need to build a staircase of entry and begin inviting players up to their level with open arms rather than pushing them down from the ledge with elite judgement, if they want participation in raids to grow or remain relatively active at all.

Raid participation is low as many people are not willing to learn and improve their gameplay.Mosts player rather rather quit than get it done and it's seen in any pug training: people joining for 2 try and they leave, not a good way to get it done.you want more player in raid? sur it's easy: remove mechs and reduces bosses to 100k hp participation will be much higher. will it be an improvement? no imo

Wow there partner ! Raid participation is low , because :a) Clearing squads , don't want noobies , while training squads does the easiest bosses .b) When they gather 200 Raid Currency and give a shot to join a clearing squad (because the LFG 90% consist of them )and die/don't do enough dps in some unknown boss that haven't seen before , they get kicked .c) They lack experience and tactics from each boss , to form they own group and teach the others(this circle of life is missing , preventing Raids from blooming)

Hopefully some day , ArenaNet will give some 1-2 Raiding Currency per week to ''Strikes'', so these kind of threads stop poping up :)

I started last year and got no issue with all that because i didn't go with a leech mindset but with a student one.-I didn't attempt to join group with more exp than I unless i was sure I had descent knowledge of my class and the boss.-I joined some dicord community where I got good advices and training, and had the opportunity to estimate boss dificulty by the classification thatt was present.-I practiced my classe 1h here and there on golem-I learnt what was expected out of a group so i could do my own training groups-As i wanted to do more i also joined a lot of pug training and stayed for hours to improve and sucessfully kill the boss-Even though I ended up with 17 boss/event done out of the 26 on my second week I continue to join trainings on bosses that were already cleared-funny enough I have almost never been kick even though my dps or boon wasn't great back then. and rarely see people being kick for low dps unless they are doing close to inexistant dps.

hopefully some day player will realise that if they were spending half the energy they waste on complaining about raid they could actually get it done

All went good for you for being invited to a pug training group to practice .How about creating a practice group now that you know the tactics and guide 9 others newly players from the Training Raids that have collected 250 Raid Currency , rather than keep saying in this thread :''its their problem that don't want to improve/they want to leach ''

Name a date and time in this thread for a Training Run with you as a Leader , after you respond to me:)Or are you busy , bickering in the forums ?

I wasn't invited, i looked it up and joined them. if you expext you everyone to come on grab your hand you're wrong, it's not how world is working. Maybe you should try to do so instead of relying on people doing all the stuff for you.Or maybe because I took the time and effort to get in myself I have the obligation to form player that don't do so?Are we playing babysitting wars?

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@Luci.7018 said:All went good for you for being invited to a pug training group to practice .How about creating a practice group now that you know the tactics and guide 9 others newly players from the Training Raids that have collected 250 Raid Currency , rather than keep saying in this thread :''its their problem that don't want to improve/they want to leach ''Been there, done that. 4 times. The first group had everyone learning completely from scratch. Took us 2 months for first VG kill. And another month to get to the point where we could do it on mostly consistent basis. And even later groups, that were mostly half-filled with veterans, needed a lot of training session for first boss kills.

Yes, that took us way, way longer than many people are willing to dedicate to training. But i never blamed other players for that. If i happen to learn slowly, it's all between the content and me. And if i'll likely will never be able to come even close to SC benchmark numbers, or run some of their builds (and need to use some simplified ones sometimes), it's also completely on me. I'm not going to blame them for not supporting my personal playstyle and ability.

And if too many players are not up to raiding standarts, and/or aren't interested in the content? That's also not SC's fault. It's just a consequence of content design.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Sacrificing a utility slot to achieve some kind of 2% to 3% increase in DPS, rather than bringing a utility that literally doubles personal sustain is not efficient. It's a ballsy tactic that should only be used by players who can run the said given content perfectly without ever making mistakes.Hint: most of the utilities that "literally double personal sustain" do not actually increase personal sustain in any impactful way. And i don't think any utility actually
literally
doubles personal sustain even in theory (much less in practice). On the other hand sometimes lacking even that sliver of a dps more
can
result in a party wipe.

Bologna.

Take a utility like Dolyak Stance as example. It grants a -33% damage vs. power and condi that stacks rather than being overlapped by protection, removes all movement impairing condis, and is also a personal stun break. Dolyak Stance easily doubles sustain, not in terms of health bar or ability to consistently take damage to the face, but rather for when it matters. A lot of these "1shot mechanics" in raids are actually not 1shot mechanics at all, they are survivable. It's just that everyone is trying to run glass cannon DPS builds that make those mechanics look like 1shots. When players bring something like Dolyak Stance and save it only for the use of a "oh kitten button" they survive through those mechanics rather than wiping to them. And INB4 "well bring more healers likes snowcrows says" because no matter how many healers you have, healing only ever comes AFTER a hit is absorbed. So glass cannons with low health and low damage mitigation tooling will get 1shot by a single hit and there won't be time to heal them. <- People are seriously overlooking this fact. Players need to be able to take the hit to be able to get healed after the hit. That's what skills like Dolyak Stance are good at offering newer/casual players.

Bringing something like Dolyak Stance is not only doubling personal sustain factor almost quite literally, but it is also removing 1shot mechanics that don't need to be 1shots. When players can survive the first hit they can be healed after, and that's what happens. Trying to bring Frost Trap for some kind of 2% 3% increase in persona DPS over Dolyak Stance is a silly notion.

And you guys keep defending your side of this debacle with "Well DPS kills faster so that means less chances of mistakes happening". Again, bologna. In the case of taking Dolyak Stance for a 2% to 3% drop in personal DPS, you're looking at:
  • Pros - Dolyak Stance gonna grant you an "oh kitten button" to ensure you stay on your feet and aren't a drag to your team
  • Cons - Losing the 2% to 3% off top damage might add +10 seconds to your clear time. That 10s is not a large enough margin of time to worry about "mistakes being made because DPS was too slow" to justify losing Dolyak Stance. Having Dolyak Stance throughout the entire rest of the raid boss clear time before that last 10 seconds is clearly a quality of life safety net worth bringing for any player who isn't running with an elite crew who clears every raid boss perfectly.

Just about every class/build has some utility skill like this, that when taken it allows them to negate most 1shot effects and/or avoid them completely, for some simple drop in 3% top DPS or lower. These kinds of utility skills are good for new or casual players to bring. Which those kinds of selections, they can at least survive and stay on their feet while not being a drag to their team, and
this gives them time to learn mechanics.
Again, some kind of 2% 3% drop in DPS is diminutive and might add +10s to the end of a raid clear time, but it allows those new players the ability to stay alive to get there to that last 10s.

If I was PUGing, I'd much rather have a group of players with Dolyak Stances who stayed alive in a raid that took 40s longer, than a group of new/casual players who insisted on using full glass cannon DPS builds who weren't ready to be doing that who couldn't survive any of the phases and we had to keep restarting because of wipes.

why take defensive skill that are useless as it is a struggle to loose hp in a fight with 2 healer? better going with that extra 2/3% dps that actually help you.If you are loosing health it means you do something wrong and in most cases the extra sustain won't be any help anyway.raid are an endgame content which imply you know where is the movement and dodge keybind. if you are unable to do so i'd recommand personnal story/world boss/meta event as they are pretty much failproof regardless what build/armor you're running.and please support your claim that your idea is better by offering facts such as log because so far i see only some random number thrown with no testing at all...So can you please post your golem with 36.86k DPS when running dolyak?

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:And before you toss all the usual yada yada at what I'm saying, it's quite clear that everyone agrees that participation is dangerously low within the raiding community. I'm simply pointing out that not only are players not interested in trying to make that running jump to be able to participate, but they couldn't even if they tried. I'm simply pointing out that this ideology you've all been tossing at me here that: "It's wrong to play outside of snowcrows" is going to need to stop at some point, and the raiding community is going to need to build a staircase of entry and begin inviting players up to their level with open arms rather than pushing them down from the ledge with elite judgement, if they want participation in raids to grow or remain relatively active at all.

Raid participation is low as many people are not willing to learn and improve their gameplay.Mosts player rather rather quit than get it done and it's seen in any pug training: people joining for 2 try and they leave, not a good way to get it done.you want more player in raid? sur it's easy: remove mechs and reduces bosses to 100k hp participation will be much higher. will it be an improvement? no imo

Wow there partner ! Raid participation is low , because :a) Clearing squads , don't want noobies , while training squads does the easiest bosses .b) When they gather 200 Raid Currency and give a shot to join a clearing squad (because the LFG 90% consist of them )and die/don't do enough dps in some unknown boss that haven't seen before , they get kicked .c) They lack experience and tactics from each boss , to form they own group and teach the others(this circle of life is missing , preventing Raids from blooming)

Hopefully some day , ArenaNet will give some 1-2 Raiding Currency per week to ''Strikes'', so these kind of threads stop poping up :)

I started last year and got no issue with all that because i didn't go with a leech mindset but with a student one.-I didn't attempt to join group with more exp than I unless i was sure I had descent knowledge of my class and the boss.-I joined some dicord community where I got good advices and training, and had the opportunity to estimate boss dificulty by the classification thatt was present.-I practiced my classe 1h here and there on golem-I learnt what was expected out of a group so i could do my own training groups-As i wanted to do more i also joined a lot of pug training and stayed for hours to improve and sucessfully kill the boss-Even though I ended up with 17 boss/event done out of the 26 on my second week I continue to join trainings on bosses that were already cleared-funny enough I have almost never been kick even though my dps or boon wasn't great back then. and rarely see people being kick for low dps unless they are doing close to inexistant dps.

hopefully some day player will realise that if they were spending half the energy they waste on complaining about raid they could actually get it done

All went good for you for being invited to a pug training group to practice .How about creating a practice group now that you know the tactics and guide 9 others newly players from the Training Raids that have collected 250 Raid Currency , rather than keep saying in this thread :''its their problem that don't want to improve/they want to leach ''

Name a date and time in this thread for a Training Run with you as a Leader , after you respond to me:)Or are you busy , bickering with me ?

Well see, therein lies one of the problems inflicted by the snowcrow mentality.

In all seriousness, most players would rather attempt to lie with fake pings to get into groups than honestly go join a training run. When you actually try to organize a learning experience for new players, I'm surprised at how few show up and even more so by the complete lack of dedication to stick around. It rarely goes well unless you're working with personal invites or more intimate guild joins like what Fangoth experienced.

It was never snowcrows intention, I'm sure, that such a resource would create certain sociological effects. But it does create these kinds of effects. Now new players don't trust each other because everyone is telling them how inadequate they are. This effect makes it so people who should be training together do not train together. They only want to train when the bulk of the squad is experienced and allowing them to do so. This creates a disparity between the purpose of the public LFG and privately organized guilds. Now the LFG is only mostly usable for veterans, and private guilds are mostly being used to train people. That actually doesn't make sense when you stop to think about it. And these are the types of reasons why even thinking about wanting to become involved in the raid community is nothing but a large hassle.

They should create an event , where each person that has completed a Wing and start a Raid (becomes leader- and must type ''welcome'' in the LFG) he gets gold per 5 min ( max 6 times) . If the boss is Reached at 50% hp , the buff refreshes (or get bonus at 25% hp or killed .He loose the buff if he kicks someone or quits (2,5 hour cd)After the 3rd failed attempts , he gets an one-shot 9.999.999 button so they can move to the next boss (without chest-no tittle -but 1-2 raid currency if more than 15 min have been wasted on the boss) .He gets more silver based on how many different Wing he has done in his account .

Or simply offer 1-2 Raid currency on ''Strikes'' :)

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:This effect makes it so people who should be training together do not train together. They only want to train when the bulk of the squad is experienced and allowing them to do so.Well, to be honest that's the best way. When you train as a dps slot in a group with 7-9 veterans dealing with major mechanics, you can concentrate purely on your part and learning the boss. You don't need to deal with additional difficulty layer coming from tank failing at positioning the boss, healers not healing enough, you having next to no boons, and some additonal problems caused by other players failing mechanics (like dropping poison mid on Sloth). Once you learn the basis you can then learn other roles, and dealing with some unexpected problems also becomes easier. On the other hand, learning in a static that starts from scratch as a whole is likely 10x as hard - and learning in a group of 10 completely new pugs, that changes every training session, is even harder than that.

This creates a disparity between the purpose of the public LFG and privately organized guilds.Yes. For the reasons mentioned above, LFG is probably the worst place to look for teaching runs.

Now the LFG is only mostly usable for veterans, and private guilds are mostly being used to train people. That actually doesn't make sense when you stop to think about it. And these are the types of reasons why even thinking about wanting to become involved in the raid community is nothing but a large hassle.It has nothing to do with Snowcrows, though. It is merely a byproduct of raid encounter design.

To me, this isn't about "who's right or wrong" "is snowcrows really at fault" but more so this is about what can be done to bring in raid participation. Right now the learning curve & what is expected for new players showing up on the scene now in 2020 is just too high to be reasonable.The learning curve isn't any higher than it was initially, though.

Something needs to be done to make it easier for newer players to just get their feet into the raid so they can feel the content and begin learning it without it being a massively try hard scheduled organization.True, but that would require some changes to raids themselves. It's not something that can be solved by the community

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Something needs to be done to make it easier for newer players to just get their feet into the raid so they can feel the content and begin learning it without it being a massively try hard scheduled organization.True, but that would require some changes to raids themselves. It's not something that can be solved by the community

Yeah, it's been brought up plenty of times but I'll post it into this thread again.

-> An easy mode for Raids

There doesn't even need to be rewards attached to the completion of an easy mode raid. It just needs to allow players to go in and begin learning mechanics in an environment that isn't so harsh and punishing.

It could easily be a big hologram selection in the raid training room. Something like that.

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@Luci.7018 said:

@"Fangoth.4503" said:or they should add daily golem reward. 2gold for breaking 90% bench, 1 gold for 80% benchand remore 10 silver from player wallet for each mechs failed

DependsAre you the one going to start a group and instruct them to improve their rotation ?Or expect them to do on their own ? :)

lmao ofc i can advise anyone about any rotation. look at sc and press buttons in same order if it doesn't get you above 90% lookup in "note" or "class guide" to see if you're missing a key point.

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@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:or they should add daily golem reward. 2gold for breaking 90% bench, 1 gold for 80% benchand remore 10 silver from player wallet for each mechs failed

DependsAre you the one going to start a group and instruct them to improve their rotation ?Or expect them to do on their own ? :)

lmao ofc i can advise anyone about any rotation. look at sc and press buttons in same order if it doesn't get you above 90% lookup in "note" or "class guide" to see if you're missing a key point.

Sc instruct how to do rotation without avoiding aoes/dodging + without worrying if the boss moves or attacks .

Cant you create a Training Pug (with you as Leader)and show them in action , these methods instead ?

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@Luci.7018 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:or they should add daily golem reward. 2gold for breaking 90% bench, 1 gold for 80% benchand remore 10 silver from player wallet for each mechs failed

DependsAre you the one going to start a group and instruct them to improve their rotation ?Or expect them to do on their own ? :)

lmao ofc i can advise anyone about any rotation. look at sc and press buttons in same order if it doesn't get you above 90% lookup in "note" or "class guide" to see if you're missing a key point.

Sc instruct how to do rotation without avoiding aoes/dodging + without worrying if the boss moves or attacks .

Cant you create a Training Pug (with you as Leader)and show them in action , these methods instead ?

you don't need to dodge at the golem as far as i know, unless its part of your rotation in which case they precise it tooOK i'll make a group if you find 8 other player and you all practice to send me logs with 90%+ dps, 90%+ boon and healer maintaining boon while having medium damage area (on EU)

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@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:or they should add daily golem reward. 2gold for breaking 90% bench, 1 gold for 80% benchand remore 10 silver from player wallet for each mechs failed

DependsAre you the one going to start a group and instruct them to improve their rotation ?Or expect them to do on their own ? :)

lmao ofc i can advise anyone about any rotation. look at sc and press buttons in same order if it doesn't get you above 90% lookup in "note" or "class guide" to see if you're missing a key point.

Sc instruct how to do rotation without avoiding aoes/dodging + without worrying if the boss moves or attacks .

Cant you create a Training Pug (with you as Leader)and show them in action , these methods instead ?

you don't need to dodge at the golem as far as i know, unless its part of your rotation in which case they precise it too

Yeah , but hitting a enemy that wont move or fight back , is different from a Raid Boss .If they get fixated with DPS , they will die from aoes and will get kickedThis is where you come up , to guide them to avoid aoes/learn tactic (an expirianced player) , while they memorize the ''sc guide'' and ''try'' to apply it , in the same time :)

Edit: just name the time and date , here in this thread with : ''come join me - Training Pug''

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@Luci.7018 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:or they should add daily golem reward. 2gold for breaking 90% bench, 1 gold for 80% benchand remore 10 silver from player wallet for each mechs failed

DependsAre you the one going to start a group and instruct them to improve their rotation ?Or expect them to do on their own ? :)

lmao ofc i can advise anyone about any rotation. look at sc and press buttons in same order if it doesn't get you above 90% lookup in "note" or "class guide" to see if you're missing a key point.

Sc instruct how to do rotation without avoiding aoes/dodging + without worrying if the boss moves or attacks .

Cant you create a Training Pug (with you as Leader)and show them in action , these methods instead ?

you don't need to dodge at the golem as far as i know, unless its part of your rotation in which case they precise it too

Yeah , but hitting a enemy that wont move or fight back , is different from a Raid Boss .If they get fixated with DPS , they will die from aoes and will get kickedThis is where you come up , to guide them to avoid aoes/learn tactic (an expirianced player) , while they memorize the ''sc guide'' and ''try'' to apply it , in the same time :)

ofc its different but you need both to know your rota and know the boss mechs to sucessfully kill a boss so if you only have 1 of the 2 to discover its much easier.for group comp you need to have:either 1 druid, 1 (any except scourge heal), 2 chr (one tank), 1bs, 5 dps (p or c dep on boss)or 1 druid, 1 hfb, 1 chr (either hfb or chr tank), 1alac, 1bs, 5 dps (p or c dep on boss)

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@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:or they should add daily golem reward. 2gold for breaking 90% bench, 1 gold for 80% benchand remore 10 silver from player wallet for each mechs failed

DependsAre you the one going to start a group and instruct them to improve their rotation ?Or expect them to do on their own ? :)

lmao ofc i can advise anyone about any rotation. look at sc and press buttons in same order if it doesn't get you above 90% lookup in "note" or "class guide" to see if you're missing a key point.

Sc instruct how to do rotation without avoiding aoes/dodging + without worrying if the boss moves or attacks .

Cant you create a Training Pug (with you as Leader)and show them in action , these methods instead ?

you don't need to dodge at the golem as far as i know, unless its part of your rotation in which case they precise it too

Yeah , but hitting a enemy that wont move or fight back , is different from a Raid Boss .If they get fixated with DPS , they will die from aoes and will get kickedThis is where you come up , to guide them to avoid aoes/learn tactic (an expirianced player) , while they memorize the ''sc guide'' and ''try'' to apply it , in the same time :)

ofc its different but you need both to know your rota and know the boss mechs to sucessfully kill a boss so if you only have 1 of the 2 to discover its much easier.for group comp you need to have:either 1 druid, 1 (any except scourge heal), 2 chr (one tank), 1bs, 5 dps (p or c dep on boss)or 1 druid, 1 hfb, 1 chr (either hfb or chr tank), 1alac, 1bs, 5 dps (p or c dep on boss)

The encounters are tailored around exotic gear + 8-10k dps from each , while having selfheal + avoidng aoes .This kind of group composision you are trying to tell me , its for speedrun/facetank the boss

I am just saying , create a group and help the new players , as the old ones have done to you . There aren't many LFG Pugs in this age .So take a leap and help them , rather than belittle them on the forums and calling them leaches :)

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@Luci.7018 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:or they should add daily golem reward. 2gold for breaking 90% bench, 1 gold for 80% benchand remore 10 silver from player wallet for each mechs failed

DependsAre you the one going to start a group and instruct them to improve their rotation ?Or expect them to do on their own ? :)

lmao ofc i can advise anyone about any rotation. look at sc and press buttons in same order if it doesn't get you above 90% lookup in "note" or "class guide" to see if you're missing a key point.

Sc instruct how to do rotation without avoiding aoes/dodging + without worrying if the boss moves or attacks .

Cant you create a Training Pug (with you as Leader)and show them in action , these methods instead ?

you don't need to dodge at the golem as far as i know, unless its part of your rotation in which case they precise it too

Yeah , but hitting a enemy that wont move or fight back , is different from a Raid Boss .If they get fixated with DPS , they will die from aoes and will get kickedThis is where you come up , to guide them to avoid aoes/learn tactic (an expirianced player) , while they memorize the ''sc guide'' and ''try'' to apply it , in the same time :)

ofc its different but you need both to know your rota and know the boss mechs to sucessfully kill a boss so if you only have 1 of the 2 to discover its much easier.for group comp you need to have:either 1 druid, 1 (any except scourge heal), 2 chr (one tank), 1bs, 5 dps (p or c dep on boss)or 1 druid, 1 hfb, 1 chr (either hfb or chr tank), 1alac, 1bs, 5 dps (p or c dep on boss)

What ?The encounter tailored around exotic gear + 8-10k dps from each , while having selfheal + avoidng aoes .This kind of group composision you are trying to tell me , its for speedrun/facetank the boss

I am just saying , create a group and help the new players , as the old ones have done to you . There aren't many LFG Pugs in this age .So take a leap and help them , rather than belittle them on the forums and calling them leaches :)

WDYM? there is a offheal its obviousle a cheezy comp. If you want me to spend time training people i expect them to also put time on learning their job, if they are not willing to do so i'm not gonna waste my time and rather farm laby.one thing worse than starting with a handicap (not knowing mechs) is starting with two handicap (not nowing mechs and your job)

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@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:or they should add daily golem reward. 2gold for breaking 90% bench, 1 gold for 80% benchand remore 10 silver from player wallet for each mechs failed

DependsAre you the one going to start a group and instruct them to improve their rotation ?Or expect them to do on their own ? :)

lmao ofc i can advise anyone about any rotation. look at sc and press buttons in same order if it doesn't get you above 90% lookup in "note" or "class guide" to see if you're missing a key point.

Sc instruct how to do rotation without avoiding aoes/dodging + without worrying if the boss moves or attacks .

Cant you create a Training Pug (with you as Leader)and show them in action , these methods instead ?

you don't need to dodge at the golem as far as i know, unless its part of your rotation in which case they precise it too

Yeah , but hitting a enemy that wont move or fight back , is different from a Raid Boss .If they get fixated with DPS , they will die from aoes and will get kickedThis is where you come up , to guide them to avoid aoes/learn tactic (an expirianced player) , while they memorize the ''sc guide'' and ''try'' to apply it , in the same time :)

ofc its different but you need both to know your rota and know the boss mechs to sucessfully kill a boss so if you only have 1 of the 2 to discover its much easier.for group comp you need to have:either 1 druid, 1 (any except scourge heal), 2 chr (one tank), 1bs, 5 dps (p or c dep on boss)or 1 druid, 1 hfb, 1 chr (either hfb or chr tank), 1alac, 1bs, 5 dps (p or c dep on boss)

What ?The encounter tailored around exotic gear + 8-10k dps from each , while having selfheal + avoidng aoes .This kind of group composision you are trying to tell me , its for speedrun/facetank the boss

I am just saying , create a group and help the new players , as the old ones have done to you . There aren't many LFG Pugs in this age .So take a leap and help them , rather than belittle them on the forums and calling them leaches :)

WDYM? there is a offheal its obviousle a cheezy comp. If you want me to spend time training people i expect them to also put time on learning their job, if they are not willing to do so i'm not gonna waste my time and rather farm laby.one thing worse than starting with a handicap (not knowing mechs) is starting with two handicap (not nowing mechs and your job)

You find a it a job and i agree with you it not our responsibility as older players (neither i will bother too - i am too old for this kitten) .Training Guild , helps them do the most easier bossesIf newer player can't find a middle ground/solution , they should quit .

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@Luci.7018 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:or they should add daily golem reward. 2gold for breaking 90% bench, 1 gold for 80% benchand remore 10 silver from player wallet for each mechs failed

DependsAre you the one going to start a group and instruct them to improve their rotation ?Or expect them to do on their own ? :)

lmao ofc i can advise anyone about any rotation. look at sc and press buttons in same order if it doesn't get you above 90% lookup in "note" or "class guide" to see if you're missing a key point.

Sc instruct how to do rotation without avoiding aoes/dodging + without worrying if the boss moves or attacks .

Cant you create a Training Pug (with you as Leader)and show them in action , these methods instead ?

you don't need to dodge at the golem as far as i know, unless its part of your rotation in which case they precise it too

Yeah , but hitting a enemy that wont move or fight back , is different from a Raid Boss .If they get fixated with DPS , they will die from aoes and will get kickedThis is where you come up , to guide them to avoid aoes/learn tactic (an expirianced player) , while they memorize the ''sc guide'' and ''try'' to apply it , in the same time :)

ofc its different but you need both to know your rota and know the boss mechs to sucessfully kill a boss so if you only have 1 of the 2 to discover its much easier.for group comp you need to have:either 1 druid, 1 (any except scourge heal), 2 chr (one tank), 1bs, 5 dps (p or c dep on boss)or 1 druid, 1 hfb, 1 chr (either hfb or chr tank), 1alac, 1bs, 5 dps (p or c dep on boss)

What ?The encounter tailored around exotic gear + 8-10k dps from each , while having selfheal + avoidng aoes .This kind of group composision you are trying to tell me , its for speedrun/facetank the boss

I am just saying , create a group and help the new players , as the old ones have done to you . There aren't many LFG Pugs in this age .So take a leap and help them , rather than belittle them on the forums and calling them leaches :)

WDYM? there is a offheal its obviousle a cheezy comp. If you want me to spend time training people i expect them to also put time on learning their job, if they are not willing to do so i'm not gonna waste my time and rather farm laby.one thing worse than starting with a handicap (not knowing mechs) is starting with two handicap (not nowing mechs and your job)

You find a it a job and i agree with you it not our responsibility as older players (neither i will bother too) .Training Guild , helps them do the most easier bossesIf newer player can't find a middle ground/solution , they should quit .

maybe they should try other training guild because i learnt all bosses from w1-7 in the 2 I started with.but yeah if a player come and ask to start with a dhuum or want to go there when he barely can hurt an easy boss like gorse its a mistake. first you get the easiest and as you improve (i insist on improving because having 200 gorse kp doesn't necessarly make you good) you move on to harder bosses.at least these day it's eeasy to evaluate youself, record the boss log then you can look up time kill which give an indication of the group lv, there if your dps/boon was good copare to others in the group, you damage take wich will tell if you were badly positionned (by taking more damage than the others) and the mechanic tab that tells if you failed most punishing mechs.if a new player put time and effort he'll get the reward, if he go as a tourist he will wipe and running 10 healer isn't gonna solve it. i know, unfair :(

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:It was never snowcrows intention, I'm sure, that such a resource would create certain sociological effects. But it does create these kinds of effects. Now new players don't trust each other because everyone is telling them how inadequate they are. This effect makes it so people who should be training together do not train together. They only want to train when the bulk of the squad is experienced and allowing them to do so. This creates a disparity between the purpose of the public LFG and privately organized guilds. Now the LFG is only mostly usable for veterans, and private guilds are mostly being used to train people. That actually doesn't make sense when you stop to think about it. And these are the types of reasons why even thinking about wanting to become involved in the raid community is nothing but a large hassle.

This isn't entirely the fault of an elite meta forming and the website resource in which it is taught. It is also a problem on the community's end. Really it's a 50/50 kind of thing we have going on. Newer players need to recognize their inexperience and start playing together for a learning process instead of expecting to get into experienced groups, but elite veterans and even the snowcrow resources needs to recognize that elite expectation staples are not helping matters. Nothing could be more unmotivating for wanting to stick around the game mode.

You are making 1 assumption which I find hard to support or agree with:You assume that the players who are unable to in the current situation to find builds, practice that build, find boss guides, commit to trainings with already created builds and properly prepare overall will suddenly become capable of doing so with less guidance.

That is a very very unrealistic assumption, especially the part where suddenly players will dedicate more time to failing. I was there when raids were new and people were clueless. It was way way way harder than it ever is now to succeed. We had 0 guidance and had to figure out everything on our own. Go through logs for minutes, try out different classes, barely beat the enrage timer on Vale Guardian, etc. Skipping Gorse updrafts was impossible for "regular" players, until the first videos of condition warriors came out (again being shared by the community to the community).

The harsh reality here is once again very simple:The players are willing and able to prepare (with as much as this might entail from just getting a build ready, to practice, to reading up on bosses beforehand, etc.) are the same players who would succeed in a harder environment. The "nice weather" players who can't prepare in todays climate or commit to training are the same ones which would fail not realizing they are "inexperience and start playing together for a learning process instead of expecting to get into experienced groups".

That's not something a website influences. That's a matter of experience (from raiding in other MMOs for example), personality and approach. In fact: you are making assumptions based on the luxury you have which is being spoon fed builds and guides. Your own assumptions are heavily skewed by this and I doubt you'd be having the same assumptions IF you had actually raided during a time where there were no guides at all. Even new wing releases are a joke now because in essence it all boils down to which of the already known builds work best, then run with that.

I can draw direct comparisons between the first weeks (very first week of wing 1) and months, coming back during wing 3 shortly before wing 4 release and taking a break after wing 5 and coming back a few months before wing 6 release as to how hard raiding is. It has become progressively easier without compare. Even the resources available have grown exponentially. Dps meters, a damage golem, multiple classes which are viable for roles, discords left and right, experienced players to ask, guilds who are constantly recruiting, even "simple" guides for people who want more simple rotations, that has all grown through the raid community for the raid community (and a lot of spillover into other game modes like open world build guides etc.).

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:To me, this isn't about "who's right or wrong" "is snowcrows really at fault" but more so this is about what can be done to bring in raid participation. Right now the learning curve & what is expected for new players showing up on the scene now in 2020 is just too high to be reasonable. Something needs to be done to make it easier for newer players to just get their feet into the raid so they can feel the content and begin learning it without it being a massively try hard scheduled organization.

As I've said before, the real difficulty of the raid mode is not the raid bosses, but rather it is fighting through the social stigma of the community to even be able to find people who will let you participate. No game mode should feel that way, and it certainly isn't confusing to me as to why players are no longer sticking around to learn. They don't stick around because it is a ridiculous notion that they would keep needing to "prove themselves" over and over when they already know they are capable of completing the content, yet this is never good enough, and people are wanting them to aim at perfections if they are allowed to participate at all.

This is only true for the people who expect to be carried or who have issues with social anxiety or want to remain solo players in a MMO. One of the casual guilds I am in has regular new players join from scratch and practice and improve and some continue to raid, some quit, some take a break from the game. The biggest issue here for group creation is that the LFG is simply not designed for this complex of a squad setup or group creation.

TL;DR:Players who can't cut it in todays raid environment would have had even less a chance in the past. To assume otherwise is folly. The question thus becomes: how many of the players who can't make it into raids or succeed at raids can be converted and which is the best approach or even should be converted? There is nothing wrong with not wanting to raid if one does not have the mentality or desire for it. Reducing the information available or even blaming players who make information available is hardly the issue.

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@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:or they should add daily golem reward. 2gold for breaking 90% bench, 1 gold for 80% benchand remore 10 silver from player wallet for each mechs failed

DependsAre you the one going to start a group and instruct them to improve their rotation ?Or expect them to do on their own ? :)

lmao ofc i can advise anyone about any rotation. look at sc and press buttons in same order if it doesn't get you above 90% lookup in "note" or "class guide" to see if you're missing a key point.

Sc instruct how to do rotation without avoiding aoes/dodging + without worrying if the boss moves or attacks .

Cant you create a Training Pug (with you as Leader)and show them in action , these methods instead ?

you don't need to dodge at the golem as far as i know, unless its part of your rotation in which case they precise it too

Yeah , but hitting a enemy that wont move or fight back , is different from a Raid Boss .If they get fixated with DPS , they will die from aoes and will get kickedThis is where you come up , to guide them to avoid aoes/learn tactic (an expirianced player) , while they memorize the ''sc guide'' and ''try'' to apply it , in the same time :)

ofc its different but you need both to know your rota and know the boss mechs to sucessfully kill a boss so if you only have 1 of the 2 to discover its much easier.for group comp you need to have:either 1 druid, 1 (any except scourge heal), 2 chr (one tank), 1bs, 5 dps (p or c dep on boss)or 1 druid, 1 hfb, 1 chr (either hfb or chr tank), 1alac, 1bs, 5 dps (p or c dep on boss)

What ?The encounter tailored around exotic gear + 8-10k dps from each , while having selfheal + avoidng aoes .This kind of group composision you are trying to tell me , its for speedrun/facetank the boss

I am just saying , create a group and help the new players , as the old ones have done to you . There aren't many LFG Pugs in this age .So take a leap and help them , rather than belittle them on the forums and calling them leaches :)

WDYM? there is a offheal its obviousle a cheezy comp. If you want me to spend time training people i expect them to also put time on learning their job, if they are not willing to do so i'm not gonna waste my time and rather farm laby.one thing worse than starting with a handicap (not knowing mechs) is starting with two handicap (not nowing mechs and your job)

You find a it a job and i agree with you it not our responsibility as older players (neither i will bother too) .Training Guild , helps them do the most easier bossesIf newer player can't find a middle ground/solution , they should quit .

maybe they should try other training guild because i learnt all bosses from w1-7 in the 2 I started with.but yeah if a player come and ask to start with a dhuum or want to go there when he barely can hurt an easy boss like gorse its a mistake. first you get the easiest and as you improve (i insist on improving because having 200 gorse kp doesn't necessarly make you good) you move on to harder bosses.at least these day it's eeasy to evaluate youself, record the boss log then you can look up time kill which give an indication of the group lv, there if your dps/boon was good copare to others in the group, you damage take wich will tell if you were badly positionned (by taking more damage than the others) and the mechanic tab that tells if you failed most punishing mechs.if a new player put time and effort he'll get the reward, if he go as a tourist he will wipe and running 10 healer isn't gonna solve it. i know, unfair :(

The problem for new players , is that there are not enough guilds that do 1-7 wings , in order to accumulate experience and either take the path to either :1) Form their own low skilled group2) improve their dps and be welcomed into the experienced groups

You and me , we are both bored/too old to teach them . We are trying to push the responsibility to another to teach/help the new playersIf he can't help them too , he will push the ''envelop'' to another guy , till none actually helps them:)

Maybe we should go with the idea of Trevor , by creating an easy mode .Its a loose /loose situation if we use this , or whatever else idea we come up , because there are 2 scenarios :a) From the ones hand the experienced players will blame the Devs for not creating new raids (and soon jump ship) , and the other side the less experienced ''will keep moaning on forums /reddit about there is no middle ground to get train - those who where lucky in the past ,got the experience''b) From the ones hand the experienced players will blame the Devs for not creating new raids (and soon jump ship) , and the other side the less experienced '' will do the instance once or twice for the ''thrill'' and then will become apathetic (because the first group never supported them) and won't side with the experienced group to pressure the company to release more Raids , nor whine in the forums reddit''

Just put the bullet in the chamber and take the blame once more:)

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@"Luci.7018" said:You and me , we are both bored/too old to teach them . We are trying to push the responsibility to another to teach/help the new playersIf he can't help them too , he will push the ''envelop'' to another guy , till none actually helps them:)

Please stop talking about other players and stick to what you personally do. You are insulting each and every experienced player who actually does take their time to teach new players.

If you are fed up with helping, that's fine. Please don't assume this is valid across all players. Not to mention that experience is not binary. Players which were "new" 2 years ago are experienced now, some of them help current new players. New players now will be experienced in 2 years and some will take over. That's the natural cycle for this type of content. (the 2 years was an arbitrary time frame I chose)

That is IF the content continues to see play, which is far more related to content updates. Obviously if veteran players stop playing, drop out, the community shrinks, these problems increase but that has little to do with people passing on the responsibility.

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