Why SnowCrows is destroying Raiding

[Luci.7018]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Luci.7018" said:You and me , we are both bored/too old to teach them . We are trying to push the responsibility to another to teach/help the new playersIf he can't help them too , he will push the ''envelop'' to another guy , till none actually helps them:)

Please stop talking about other players and stick to what you personally do. You are insulting each and every experienced player who actually does take their time to teach new players.

If you are fed up with helping, that's fine. Please don't assume this is valid across all players. Not to mention that experience is not binary. Players which were "new" 2 years ago are experienced now, some of them help current new players. New players now will be experienced in 2 years and some will take over. That's the natural cycle for this type of content. (the 2 years was an arbitrary time frame I chose)

That is IF the content continues to see play, which is far more related to content updates. Obviously if veteran players stop playing, drop out, the community shrinks, these problems increase but that has little to do with people passing on the responsibility.

I am sorry , but some people are saying:Casuals should stick to training guilds get enough experience (forever?)Training guilds are not doing all the bosses , they they should get experience by improving their dps by copying the sc site (?)They should never insist of joing experienced group , if those 2 steps above are not fulfilled

Why not create a thread on reddit , tittle ''if raids where deleted , how would you feel?'' as census ?So we can see if people are not doing Raids , because they are Hard/No Rewards/Something else

[Cyninja.2954]

@Luci.7018 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:You and me , we are both bored/too old to teach them . We are trying to push the responsibility to another to teach/help the new playersIf he can't help them too , he will push the ''envelop'' to another guy , till none actually helps them:)

Please stop talking about other players and stick to what you personally do. You are insulting each and every experienced player who actually does take their time to teach new players.

If you are fed up with helping, that's fine. Please don't assume this is valid across all players. Not to mention that experience is not binary. Players which were "new" 2 years ago are experienced now, some of them help current new players. New players now will be experienced in 2 years and some will take over. That's the natural cycle for this type of content. (the 2 years was an arbitrary time frame I chose)

That is IF the content continues to see play, which is far more related to content updates. Obviously if veteran players stop playing, drop out, the community shrinks, these problems increase but that has little to do with people passing on the responsibility.

I am sorry , but some people are saying:Casuals should stick to training guilds get enough experience (forever?)

That's not what people are saying. That's what you might be reading.

@Luci.7018 said:Training guilds are not doing all the bosses , they they should get experience by improving their dps by copying the sc site ?They should never insist of joing experienced group , if those 2 steps above are not fulfilled

Which trainings?There are new player trainings, advanced player trainings, speed run trainings, new class trainings, etc.

I have seen the same players do trainings runs, myself included occasionally, for completely new players, then on the next raid day try to kill bosses they themselves are stuck or not safe on. Within the same week and same raid IDs. Turns out, veteran players who are not "that" veteran have to work on new wings themselves too.

Which training exactly are you referring to because from what I have experienced, training happens all the time even for all types of players. Again, people need to really stop treating this as though veterancy or experience is somehow a binary thing which you can turn on or off.

As far as new players: yes, it makes no sense to start with the hardest fights. The advice is to first start on easier wings, get to a basic understanding of how raiding works, learn a few classes, then advance to harder bosses. This happens naturally within most guilds.

I'm really unsure what you are talking about. KP groups in LFG are not training groups. Training groups that ask for KP are not for new players but for players who need training on that specific boss and have varying degrees of experience depending on how hard the boss is. I have not seen anyone here tell new players to stick to trainings runs for all eternity (though the process of having to constantly learn new things certainly is ongoing, be it new builds after patches or new bosses when a new wing releases). All I see is players who vastly overestimate their ability or who want to skip far further ahead then their experience allows.

[Luci.7018]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:You and me , we are both bored/too old to teach them . We are trying to push the responsibility to another to teach/help the new playersIf he can't help them too , he will push the ''envelop'' to another guy , till none actually helps them:)

Please stop talking about other players and stick to what you personally do. You are insulting each and every experienced player who actually does take their time to teach new players.

If you are fed up with helping, that's fine. Please don't assume this is valid across all players. Not to mention that experience is not binary. Players which were "new" 2 years ago are experienced now, some of them help current new players. New players now will be experienced in 2 years and some will take over. That's the natural cycle for this type of content. (the 2 years was an arbitrary time frame I chose)

That is IF the content continues to see play, which is far more related to content updates. Obviously if veteran players stop playing, drop out, the community shrinks, these problems increase but that has little to do with people passing on the responsibility.

I am sorry , but some people are saying:Casuals should stick to training guilds get enough experience (forever?)

That's not what people are saying. That's what you might be reading.

@Luci.7018 said:Training guilds are not doing all the bosses , they they should get experience by improving their dps by copying the sc site ?They should never insist of joing experienced group , if those 2 steps above are not fulfilled

Which trainings?There are new player trainings, advanced player trainings, speed run trainings, new class trainings, etc.

I have seen the same players do trainings runs, myself included occasionally, for completely new players, then on the next raid try to kill bosses they themselves are stuck or not safe on. Within the same week.

Which training exactly are you referring to because from what I have experienced, training happens all the time even for experienced players.

As far as new players: yes, it makes no sense to start with the hardest fights. The advice is to first start on easier wings, get to a basic understanding of how raiding works, learn a few classes, then advance to harder bosses. This happens naturally within most guilds.

I'm really unsure what you are talking about. KP groups in LFG are not training groups. Training groups that ask for KP are not for new players. I have not seen anyone here tell new players to stick to trainings runs for all eternity. All I see is players who vastly overestimate their ability or who want to skip far further ahead then their experience allows.

The majority of the casuals are going for Wing 1-4 with the KP . They know they don't have a chance for Druum , neither they have the LI for Wing 7-8. They are trying to ''complete'' something that the training guilds didn't offer them :a) completion of each wingb) faster rewards

So either , they should go :1) LFG (brims with cutthroat mentality)2) stick forever to training guilds (becomes apathetic for future releases , goes for weekly rewards)c) Find advanced guilds (which is most ases are few , and they teach a limited ammount of players each time 1-3 .So even if they die , they can kill the boss rather than constant reset till the new players learn the ropes

LFG could be a tool to fill the gap in those advanced guilds , but you know ...someone else should teach them , rather than me:)

[Cyninja.2954]

@Luci.7018 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:You and me , we are both bored/too old to teach them . We are trying to push the responsibility to another to teach/help the new playersIf he can't help them too , he will push the ''envelop'' to another guy , till none actually helps them:)

Please stop talking about other players and stick to what you personally do. You are insulting each and every experienced player who actually does take their time to teach new players.

If you are fed up with helping, that's fine. Please don't assume this is valid across all players. Not to mention that experience is not binary. Players which were "new" 2 years ago are experienced now, some of them help current new players. New players now will be experienced in 2 years and some will take over. That's the natural cycle for this type of content. (the 2 years was an arbitrary time frame I chose)

That is IF the content continues to see play, which is far more related to content updates. Obviously if veteran players stop playing, drop out, the community shrinks, these problems increase but that has little to do with people passing on the responsibility.

I am sorry , but some people are saying:Casuals should stick to training guilds get enough experience (forever?)

That's not what people are saying. That's what you might be reading.

@Luci.7018 said:Training guilds are not doing all the bosses , they they should get experience by improving their dps by copying the sc site ?They should never insist of joing experienced group , if those 2 steps above are not fulfilled

Which trainings?There are new player trainings, advanced player trainings, speed run trainings, new class trainings, etc.

I have seen the same players do trainings runs, myself included occasionally, for completely new players, then on the next raid try to kill bosses they themselves are stuck or not safe on. Within the same week.

Which training exactly are you referring to because from what I have experienced, training happens all the time even for experienced players.

As far as new players: yes, it makes no sense to start with the hardest fights. The advice is to first start on easier wings, get to a basic understanding of how raiding works, learn a few classes, then advance to harder bosses. This happens naturally within most guilds.

I'm really unsure what you are talking about. KP groups in LFG are not training groups. Training groups that ask for KP are not for new players. I have not seen anyone here tell new players to stick to trainings runs for all eternity. All I see is players who vastly overestimate their ability or who want to skip far further ahead then their experience allows.

The majority of the casuals are going for Wing 1-4 with the KP . They know they don't have a chance for Druum , neither they have the LI for Wing 7-8. They are trying to ''complete'' something that the training guilds didn't offer them :a) completion of each wingb) faster rewards

So either , they should go :1) LFG (brims with cutthroat mentality)

LFG doesn't brim with cutthroat mentality. It is filled with a not training mentality since most search there are NOT TRAININGS. Those 2 are not the same. If you go to a pizza place which serves 1 type of spaghetti, you can complain as much as you want about the limited variations of spaghetti offered, but in the end you were simply in the wrong place.

@Luci.7018 said:2) stick forever to training guilds (becomes apathetic for future releases , goes for weekly rewards)

I'm having a harder and harder time believing you have raided in this game at all. "Training guilds" are regular guilds which do raids just as everybody else, only that they also train up new players in their spare time. Those players in guilds which offer training will hardly stop doing their own regular clears only because they ALSO help new players. Can we stop pretending as though this was the case, or in case you were unaware of this having never trained new players yourself, now you know.

@Luci.7018 said:c) Find advanced guilds (which is most ases are few , and they teach a limited ammount of players each time 1-3 .

These are one and the same as the "training" guilds you were talking about. Unless the guild has not evertyhing on full clear and is its self working on clearing new wings. In which case it is even better for new players who have improved far enough to join the "veteran" squad/squads of the guild.

@Luci.7018 said:LFG could be a tool to fill the gap in those advanced guilds , but you know ...someone else should teach them , rather than me:)

The LFG has multiple issues which prevent this: first of all the solo mentality approach which comes along with not wanting to commit to playing with a group of players, but sure, the LFG could be far more useful if it got some upgrades especially in regard to creating groups.

[Luci.7018]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:You and me , we are both bored/too old to teach them . We are trying to push the responsibility to another to teach/help the new playersIf he can't help them too , he will push the ''envelop'' to another guy , till none actually helps them:)

Please stop talking about other players and stick to what you personally do. You are insulting each and every experienced player who actually does take their time to teach new players.

If you are fed up with helping, that's fine. Please don't assume this is valid across all players. Not to mention that experience is not binary. Players which were "new" 2 years ago are experienced now, some of them help current new players. New players now will be experienced in 2 years and some will take over. That's the natural cycle for this type of content. (the 2 years was an arbitrary time frame I chose)

That is IF the content continues to see play, which is far more related to content updates. Obviously if veteran players stop playing, drop out, the community shrinks, these problems increase but that has little to do with people passing on the responsibility.

I am sorry , but some people are saying:Casuals should stick to training guilds get enough experience (forever?)

That's not what people are saying. That's what you might be reading.

@Luci.7018 said:Training guilds are not doing all the bosses , they they should get experience by improving their dps by copying the sc site ?They should never insist of joing experienced group , if those 2 steps above are not fulfilled

Which trainings?There are new player trainings, advanced player trainings, speed run trainings, new class trainings, etc.

I have seen the same players do trainings runs, myself included occasionally, for completely new players, then on the next raid try to kill bosses they themselves are stuck or not safe on. Within the same week.

Which training exactly are you referring to because from what I have experienced, training happens all the time even for experienced players.

As far as new players: yes, it makes no sense to start with the hardest fights. The advice is to first start on easier wings, get to a basic understanding of how raiding works, learn a few classes, then advance to harder bosses. This happens naturally within most guilds.

I'm really unsure what you are talking about. KP groups in LFG are not training groups. Training groups that ask for KP are not for new players. I have not seen anyone here tell new players to stick to trainings runs for all eternity. All I see is players who vastly overestimate their ability or who want to skip far further ahead then their experience allows.

The majority of the casuals are going for Wing 1-4 with the KP . They know they don't have a chance for Druum , neither they have the LI for Wing 7-8. They are trying to ''complete'' something that the training guilds didn't offer them :a) completion of each wingb) faster rewards

So either , they should go :1) LFG (brims with cutthroat mentality)

LFG doesn't brim with cutthroat mentality. It is filled with a not training mentality since most search there are NOT TRAININGS. Those 2 are not the same. If you go to a pizza place which serves 1 type of spaghetti, you can complain as much as you want about the limited variations of spaghetti offered, but in the end you were simply in the wrong place.

@Luci.7018 said:2) stick forever to training guilds (becomes apathetic for future releases , goes for weekly rewards)

I'm having a harder and harder time believing you have raided in this game at all. "Training guilds" are regular guilds which do raids just as everybody else, only that they also train up new players in their spare time. Those players in guilds which offer training will hardly stop doing their own regular clears only because they ALSO help new players. Can we stop pretending as though this was the case, or in case you were unaware of this having never trained new players yourself, now you know.

@Luci.7018 said:c) Find advanced guilds (which is most ases are few , and they teach a limited ammount of players each time 1-3 .

These are one and the same as the "training" guilds you were talking about. Unless the guild has not evertyhing on full clear and is its self working on clearing new wings. In which case it is even better for new players who have improved far enough to join the "veteran" squad/squads of the guild.

@Luci.7018 said:LFG could be a tool to fill the gap in those advanced guilds , but you know ...someone else should teach them , rather than me:)

The LFG has multiple issues which prevent this: first of all the solo mentality approach which comes along with not wanting to commit to playing with a group of players, but sure, the LFG could be far more useful if it got some upgrades especially in regard to creating groups.

What ''solo mentality approach which comes along with not wanting to commit to playing with a group of players'' means ?Players comes into the Raids for the fun and rewards , but face 3x ''WALLS''a) KP (can be faked)b) Bring the right class + spec + food + link achivement (can be easily done , but limit the pool of players)c) Do SC rotations , while staying alive (can be done)Whoever can oblige , stays

We had 5 years , or people joining training/veteran guilds and then procced to teach other .With what result ? Less than we started with ? Becomes old enought and keep the cirle of ''someone else should teach them''? People doing over and over the same boss , in order to unlock the Legendary and then quit ?

So if the process of joining LFG /groups and stay there for more 15 min , is harder the instance then someone should put the bullet into the chamber:)Otherwise Raid , should become crowdfunded , with Druum difficulty

[Cyninja.2954]

@Luci.7018 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:You and me , we are both bored/too old to teach them . We are trying to push the responsibility to another to teach/help the new playersIf he can't help them too , he will push the ''envelop'' to another guy , till none actually helps them:)

Please stop talking about other players and stick to what you personally do. You are insulting each and every experienced player who actually does take their time to teach new players.

If you are fed up with helping, that's fine. Please don't assume this is valid across all players. Not to mention that experience is not binary. Players which were "new" 2 years ago are experienced now, some of them help current new players. New players now will be experienced in 2 years and some will take over. That's the natural cycle for this type of content. (the 2 years was an arbitrary time frame I chose)

That is IF the content continues to see play, which is far more related to content updates. Obviously if veteran players stop playing, drop out, the community shrinks, these problems increase but that has little to do with people passing on the responsibility.

I am sorry , but some people are saying:Casuals should stick to training guilds get enough experience (forever?)

That's not what people are saying. That's what you might be reading.

@Luci.7018 said:Training guilds are not doing all the bosses , they they should get experience by improving their dps by copying the sc site ?They should never insist of joing experienced group , if those 2 steps above are not fulfilled

Which trainings?There are new player trainings, advanced player trainings, speed run trainings, new class trainings, etc.

I have seen the same players do trainings runs, myself included occasionally, for completely new players, then on the next raid try to kill bosses they themselves are stuck or not safe on. Within the same week.

Which training exactly are you referring to because from what I have experienced, training happens all the time even for experienced players.

As far as new players: yes, it makes no sense to start with the hardest fights. The advice is to first start on easier wings, get to a basic understanding of how raiding works, learn a few classes, then advance to harder bosses. This happens naturally within most guilds.

I'm really unsure what you are talking about. KP groups in LFG are not training groups. Training groups that ask for KP are not for new players. I have not seen anyone here tell new players to stick to trainings runs for all eternity. All I see is players who vastly overestimate their ability or who want to skip far further ahead then their experience allows.

The majority of the casuals are going for Wing 1-4 with the KP . They know they don't have a chance for Druum , neither they have the LI for Wing 7-8. They are trying to ''complete'' something that the training guilds didn't offer them :a) completion of each wingb) faster rewards

So either , they should go :1) LFG (brims with cutthroat mentality)

LFG doesn't brim with cutthroat mentality. It is filled with a not training mentality since most search there are NOT TRAININGS. Those 2 are not the same. If you go to a pizza place which serves 1 type of spaghetti, you can complain as much as you want about the limited variations of spaghetti offered, but in the end you were simply in the wrong place.

@Luci.7018 said:2) stick forever to training guilds (becomes apathetic for future releases , goes for weekly rewards)

I'm having a harder and harder time believing you have raided in this game at all. "Training guilds" are regular guilds which do raids just as everybody else, only that they also train up new players in their spare time. Those players in guilds which offer training will hardly stop doing their own regular clears only because they ALSO help new players. Can we stop pretending as though this was the case, or in case you were unaware of this having never trained new players yourself, now you know.

@Luci.7018 said:c) Find advanced guilds (which is most ases are few , and they teach a limited ammount of players each time 1-3 .

These are one and the same as the "training" guilds you were talking about. Unless the guild has not evertyhing on full clear and is its self working on clearing new wings. In which case it is even better for new players who have improved far enough to join the "veteran" squad/squads of the guild.

@Luci.7018 said:LFG could be a tool to fill the gap in those advanced guilds , but you know ...someone else should teach them , rather than me:)

The LFG has multiple issues which prevent this: first of all the solo mentality approach which comes along with not wanting to commit to playing with a group of players, but sure, the LFG could be far more useful if it got some upgrades especially in regard to creating groups.

What ''solo mentality approach which comes along with not wanting to commit to playing with a group of players'' means ?Players comes into the Raids for the fun and rewards , but face 3x ''WALLS''a) KP (can be faked)b) Bring the right class + spec + food + link achivementc) Do SC rotations , while staying alive

We had 5 years , or people joining training/veteran guilds and then procced to teach other .With what result ? Less than we started with ? Becomes old enought and keep the cirle of ''someone else should teach them''? People doing over and over the same boss , in order to unlock the Legendary and then quit ?

Yes, we had 5 years of raids and things were working smoothly until the content drought caused the community to wither.

The "system" was working given how over the course of 5 years many new players were able to join and raid without issue over the entire time.

I also do not agree that there is less people teaching new players than in the past. On the contrary, I believe far more players relative to the total size of raiding players are training new players today than in the past.

@Luci.7018 said:So if the process of joining LFG /groups and stay there for more 15 min , is harder the instance then someone should put the bullet into the chamber:)

I really have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop using metaphors/etc and just state what you mean. Your english is not helping in understanding what you want to say. No this is not me dissing or hating, it is literally me telling you I have no idea what you want to communicate.

If you mean raids should be discontinued, that is exactly what Arenanet is doing atm.

If you mean raids should be made easier, I would disagree since that would only appease the players who simply want the loot.

If this is about making raid encounters shorter, this was tried with strikes.

@Luci.7018 said:Otherwise Raid , should become crowdfunded , with Druum difficulty

Sure, if a different approach of monetization would allow players to vote with their wallet and support the content I would agree.

My estimate though is that if this was implemented a lot of players would start complaining, similar to how players complain about having to pay for living world episodes. Not to mention the divide between players who have access to the new raid and those who don't and possibly locking rewards behind this content, likely high end.

I personally would prefer being able to pay for new raids over havig the content shelved but there would be issues one has to be aware of.

[Luci.7018]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Luci.7018 said:You and me , we are both bored/too old to teach them . We are trying to push the responsibility to another to teach/help the new playersIf he can't help them too , he will push the ''envelop'' to another guy , till none actually helps them:)

Please stop talking about other players and stick to what you personally do. You are insulting each and every experienced player who actually does take their time to teach new players.

If you are fed up with helping, that's fine. Please don't assume this is valid across all players. Not to mention that experience is not binary. Players which were "new" 2 years ago are experienced now, some of them help current new players. New players now will be experienced in 2 years and some will take over. That's the natural cycle for this type of content. (the 2 years was an arbitrary time frame I chose)

That is IF the content continues to see play, which is far more related to content updates. Obviously if veteran players stop playing, drop out, the community shrinks, these problems increase but that has little to do with people passing on the responsibility.

I am sorry , but some people are saying:Casuals should stick to training guilds get enough experience (forever?)

That's not what people are saying. That's what you might be reading.

@Luci.7018 said:Training guilds are not doing all the bosses , they they should get experience by improving their dps by copying the sc site ?They should never insist of joing experienced group , if those 2 steps above are not fulfilled

Which trainings?There are new player trainings, advanced player trainings, speed run trainings, new class trainings, etc.

I have seen the same players do trainings runs, myself included occasionally, for completely new players, then on the next raid try to kill bosses they themselves are stuck or not safe on. Within the same week.

Which training exactly are you referring to because from what I have experienced, training happens all the time even for experienced players.

As far as new players: yes, it makes no sense to start with the hardest fights. The advice is to first start on easier wings, get to a basic understanding of how raiding works, learn a few classes, then advance to harder bosses. This happens naturally within most guilds.

I'm really unsure what you are talking about. KP groups in LFG are not training groups. Training groups that ask for KP are not for new players. I have not seen anyone here tell new players to stick to trainings runs for all eternity. All I see is players who vastly overestimate their ability or who want to skip far further ahead then their experience allows.

The majority of the casuals are going for Wing 1-4 with the KP . They know they don't have a chance for Druum , neither they have the LI for Wing 7-8. They are trying to ''complete'' something that the training guilds didn't offer them :a) completion of each wingb) faster rewards

So either , they should go :1) LFG (brims with cutthroat mentality)

LFG doesn't brim with cutthroat mentality. It is filled with a not training mentality since most search there are NOT TRAININGS. Those 2 are not the same. If you go to a pizza place which serves 1 type of spaghetti, you can complain as much as you want about the limited variations of spaghetti offered, but in the end you were simply in the wrong place.

@Luci.7018 said:2) stick forever to training guilds (becomes apathetic for future releases , goes for weekly rewards)

I'm having a harder and harder time believing you have raided in this game at all. "Training guilds" are regular guilds which do raids just as everybody else, only that they also train up new players in their spare time. Those players in guilds which offer training will hardly stop doing their own regular clears only because they ALSO help new players. Can we stop pretending as though this was the case, or in case you were unaware of this having never trained new players yourself, now you know.

@Luci.7018 said:c) Find advanced guilds (which is most ases are few , and they teach a limited ammount of players each time 1-3 .

These are one and the same as the "training" guilds you were talking about. Unless the guild has not evertyhing on full clear and is its self working on clearing new wings. In which case it is even better for new players who have improved far enough to join the "veteran" squad/squads of the guild.

@Luci.7018 said:LFG could be a tool to fill the gap in those advanced guilds , but you know ...someone else should teach them , rather than me:)

The LFG has multiple issues which prevent this: first of all the solo mentality approach which comes along with not wanting to commit to playing with a group of players, but sure, the LFG could be far more useful if it got some upgrades especially in regard to creating groups.

What ''solo mentality approach which comes along with not wanting to commit to playing with a group of players'' means ?Players comes into the Raids for the fun and rewards , but face 3x ''WALLS''a) KP (can be faked)b) Bring the right class + spec + food + link achivementc) Do SC rotations , while staying alive

We had 5 years , or people joining training/veteran guilds and then procced to teach other .With what result ? Less than we started with ? Becomes old enought and keep the cirle of ''someone else should teach them''? People doing over and over the same boss , in order to unlock the Legendary and then quit ?

Yes, we had 5 years of raids and things were working smoothly until the content drought caused the community to wither.

The "system" was working given how over the course of 5 years many new players were able to join and raid without issue over the entire time.

I also do not agree that there is less people teaching new players than in the past. On the contrary, I believe far more players relative to the total size of raiding players are training new players today than in the past.

@Luci.7018 said:So if the process of joining LFG /groups and stay there for more 15 min , is harder the instance then someone should put the bullet into the chamber:)

I really have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop using metaphors/etc and just state what you mean. Your english is not helping in understanding what you want to say. No this is not me dissing or hating, it is literally me telling you I have no idea what you want to communicate.

If you mean raids should be discontinued, that is exactly what Arenanet is doing atm.

If you mean raids should be made easier, I would disagree since that would only appease the players who simply want the loot.

If this is about making raid encounters shorter, this was tried with strikes.

@Luci.7018 said:Otherwise Raid , should become crowdfunded , with Druum difficulty

Sure, if a different approach of monetization would allow players to vote with their wallet and support the content I would agree.

My estimate though is that if this was implemented a lot of players would start complaining, similar to how players complain about having to pay for living world episodes. Not to mention the divide between players who have access to the new raid and those who don't and possibly locking rewards behind this content, likely high end.

I personally would prefer being able to pay for new raids over havig the content shelved but there would be issues one has to be aware of.

Casuals whined about anything than drought/difficulty of Raids in these 5 yearsExprerienced players , ''yes it was the drought and casuals insist of behaving as solo players in a a team enviroment

Yeah i agree too , that each side should crowdfund their area , so these kind of threads should stop poping up:)

[Obtena.7952]

@Blumpf.2518 said:And thats what snowcrows is promoting, that DPS is better than everything else, which leads to situations like this.

Except it's not promotion, it's just information being available. Not sure what your agenda is here ... but SC and similar sites aren't going away because you don't like them and there isn't anything Anet can or should do about them either.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:It was never snowcrows intention, I'm sure, that such a resource would create certain sociological effects. But it does create these kinds of effects. Now new players don't trust each other because everyone is telling them how inadequate they are. This effect makes it so people who should be training together do not train together. They only want to train when the bulk of the squad is experienced and allowing them to do so. This creates a disparity between the purpose of the public LFG and privately organized guilds. Now the LFG is only mostly usable for veterans, and private guilds are mostly being used to train people. That actually doesn't make sense when you stop to think about it. And these are the types of reasons why even thinking about wanting to become involved in the raid community is nothing but a large hassle.

This isn't entirely the fault of an elite meta forming and the website resource in which it is taught. It is also a problem on the community's end. Really it's a 50/50 kind of thing we have going on. Newer players need to recognize their inexperience and start playing together for a learning process instead of expecting to get into experienced groups, but elite veterans and even the snowcrow resources needs to recognize that elite expectation staples are not helping matters. Nothing could be more unmotivating for wanting to stick around the game mode.

You are making 1 assumption which I find hard to support or agree with:You assume that the players who are unable to in the current situation to find builds, practice that build, find boss guides, commit to trainings with already created builds and properly prepare overall will suddenly become capable of doing so with less guidance.

That is a very very unrealistic assumption, especially the part where suddenly players will dedicate more time to failing.

That's not what I'm saying at all, if you go back and reread. Some of you guys have been defensing so long in this forum that you only hear what you're used to hearing. Take a look at what you yourself say next:

I was there when raids were new and people were clueless. It was way way way harder than it ever is now to succeed. We had 0 guidance and had to figure out everything on our own. Go through logs for minutes, try out different classes, barely beat the enrage timer on Vale Guardian, etc. Skipping Gorse updrafts was impossible for "regular" players, until the first videos of condition warriors came out (again being shared by the community to the community).

^ This here is what I'm talking about. In the early days when expectations were little to none outside of simply finding players who were willing to grind learn, people were actually figuring out how to clear these raids in a time when DPS was half of what it is now, and they were doing it from scratch. Raids were way harder back then. Yet people were hanging around and spending the time to do it. You know why? Because it was a time before elite expectations. Even the month long veterans were opened armed with teaching people back then. And before meta sites told everyone "the only acceptable way to run a raid" people were not afraid to join PUGmand crews and play together to learn. Then slowly but surely more and more and more expectations showed onto the scene. Some of them were good to set, like making sure a healer is present and a source of quick/alac. But others became overly perfectionist, creating large margins of overly discriminatory social stigma. After awhile, it wasn't good enough to complete a raid, the raids needed to be done perfectly, and they needed to be done in the way snowcrows presented. The biggest problem is that the teachers within the community, the veterans, all began to adhere to this idea. The interesting thing here is that not all of the veterans agreed to this ideology so willingly. What happened was more like a schoolground popularity effect. What I mean is that, the biggest coolest kids in the playground "snowcrows" are dressing a certain way or acting a certain way and encouraging a particular interest or idea in something. Some other kids see that what they are doing is working so without question they follow the lead of the older kids, which is normal. Some other kids look at it and say "well it works but it certainly isn't the ONLY way this could be done" but they keep their mouths shut and do the same thing everyone else is doing to follow the lead of the biggest oldest kids because they themselves, are wanting to avoid the hassle of discrimination. They want to avoid discrimination or falling away from the pack because they've seen what happens to the different kids or the kids doing something different or simply some minority that no one wants around. They get no play and are often shit on. Then 5 or 6 or 7 years go by, and this ideology has become almost a tradition or maybe even like a religion. And people stop questioning it and just assume "oh this is what the game is and this is how it is" to the point that they will defend it beyond reason because well, there is still that feeling of being a part of the cool kid pack while defending it. In fact, THAT INSIDE OF ITSELF is what makes the difference between the cool kid and the different kid, is adhering to the popular establishment. The entire engine behind such propaganda or commercialism is driven by this effect. That effect is wanting to feel elite and strong and popular and accepted by others within an elite community.

This is what we all seek when we are gaming in such a scene as raids or CM fractals or even top 100 ranks in pvp. It is a feeling we chase and want to maintain. 90% of gamers will honestly agree with this and I know that is true because I have had several discussions about it in the past. Don't try to tell me I'm wrong. You know it's true. And thus notice that I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that. What I have been trying to point out is the difference between when such elitism is normal and organic and healthy and necessary or at the least convenient, and then when it becomes abnormal and unhealthy and unnecessary and inconvenient. In the early stages of HoT when DPS was very seriously half of what it is now, this kind of elitism to aim at practical raid clearing was absolutely normal. Having experienced guilds posting methods and websites to teach everyone was convenient. And booting people out who couldn't keep up to create a clear was plainly necessary. BUT NOW in 2020 when DPS is twice as high, this kind of ideological/religious elitism has become unnecessary and inconvenient and unhealthy for community participation. There is no practical reason for this anymore. Now it's just clout chasing so 900 LI players can feel like they are better than 600 LI players. Even though both of those players run mechanics nearly perfectly, the 900 LI player has a slightly higher benchmark so he rides that feeling of clout and refuses to play with the 600 LI player. When the truth is that this kind of refusal to squad up and get shit done is killing the game mode. The truth is that a 100 LI player who lands a sloppy benchmark compared to the 600 LI player, is still perfectly capable of completing the content because DPS is so damn high now that it doesn't matter if your benchmark is sloppy, but the 600 LI wouldn't play with the 100 LI. The truth is that in 2020 the elitism is no longer necessary for creating content completion, and it isn't healthy for community growth & participation either.

We can argue this fact on and on, but remember that even you yourself spoke about how different the participation values were upon raid release because you were there. You should sit back and really question why it was so different then than it is now. You just may find, after following the cause & effect of it all, that the only thing that changed, is higher and higher and higher expectations to allow players to participate. Which doesn't make sense because when the DPS is overall increasing and making raids easier and easier, those expectations for all intents & purposes, should have been lowered. Stop and think about it within reason rather than from the standpoint of defending snowcrows.

The harsh reality here is once again very simple:The players are willing and able to prepare (with as much as this might entail from just getting a build ready, to practice, to reading up on bosses beforehand, etc.) are the same players who would succeed in a harder environment. The "nice weather" players who can't prepare in todays climate or commit to training are the same ones which would fail not realizing they are "inexperience and start playing together for a learning process instead of expecting to get into experienced groups".

This is the least perceptive thing I've heard you say actually. These are words coming from someone who was able to benefit the early days, when there was little to no discrimination at all. You were able to learn alongside of players when everyone was new. You are the one of the ones who rode the top the tidal wave as I put it. You were allowed this equal entry alongside of the vets that are the vets now. You've been given an organic growth over an organic timeline. The expectations placed on you were nothing even in the ballpark of difficult as what are placed on new players now.

You make that statement to me, but you should look at this differently. Rather than making that statement from the standpoint of a veteran now, you should try looking at it from the standpoint as if you were a new player right now. Would you even stick around this raid scene now to learn? Would you even be able to keep up? Consider how long it took you to get to where you are now, the years of development. Now imagine if you were a new player and were being expected to perform at that level immediately.

That's not something a website influences. That's a matter of experience (from raiding in other MMOs for example), personality and approach. In fact: you are making assumptions based on the luxury you have which is being spoon fed builds and guides. Your own assumptions are heavily skewed by this and I doubt you'd be having the same assumptions IF you had actually raided during a time where there were no guides at all. Even new wing releases are a joke now because in essence it all boils down to which of the already known builds work best, then run with that.

Assumptions assumptions! Lots of assumptions here. I guess you already know everything about me, or at least assume it.

I can draw direct comparisons between the first weeks (very first week of wing 1) and months, coming back during wing 3 shortly before wing 4 release and taking a break after wing 5 and coming back a few months before wing 6 release as to how hard raiding is. It has become progressively easier without compare. Even the resources available have grown exponentially. Dps meters, a damage golem, multiple classes which are viable for roles, discords left and right, experienced players to ask, guilds who are constantly recruiting, even "simple" guides for people who want more simple rotations, that has all grown through the raid community for the raid community (and a lot of spillover into other game modes like open world build guides etc.).

Yes but these tools are designed for the pre-existent raid community, which is great. But they don't cater so well to new players and their entry. And that doesn't fare well for the growth of the game mode or community participation.

Hey man, I never said snowcrows or any of these tools were bad. I said that they were a double-bladed sword. And that is true.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:To me, this isn't about "who's right or wrong" "is snowcrows really at fault" but more so this is about what can be done to bring in raid participation. Right now the learning curve & what is expected for new players showing up on the scene now in 2020 is just too high to be reasonable. Something needs to be done to make it easier for newer players to just get their feet into the raid so they can feel the content and begin learning it without it being a massively try hard scheduled organization.

As I've said before, the real difficulty of the raid mode is not the raid bosses, but rather it is fighting through the social stigma of the community to even be able to find people who will let you participate. No game mode should feel that way, and it certainly isn't confusing to me as to why players are no longer sticking around to learn. They don't stick around because it is a ridiculous notion that they would keep needing to "prove themselves" over and over when they already know they are capable of completing the content, yet this is never good enough, and people are wanting them to aim at perfections if they are allowed to participate at all.

This is only true for the people who expect to be carried or who have issues with social anxiety or want to remain solo players in a MMO. One of the casual guilds I am in has regular new players join from scratch and practice and improve and some continue to raid, some quit, some take a break from the game. The biggest issue here for group creation is that the LFG is simply not designed for this complex of a squad setup or group creation.

Just think back to the way things were before all the ideologies & tools & religions & clout chasing. It's a far cry from what things have become now. The real importance of this thread and the discussions here-in are to figure out why.

TL;DR:Players who can't cut it in todays raid environment would have had even less a chance in the past.

That is absolutely untrue. And to be perfectly honest, I wish I could view an alternate reality where YOU saying that right now, were to come into the game as a new player in the alternate reality in 2020. I'd like to see if you as a new player in 2020 were to even care enough or have the sweaty try hard to keep up and be able to endure the phases of hazing during raid initiation, to stick around to learn.

I've personally heard a few veterans tell me that "If I was a new player now, I wouldn't even worry about learning raids. It's become too stressful." and those are guys who've been in the scene since HoT release.

[Linken.6345]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:It was never snowcrows intention, I'm sure, that such a resource would create certain sociological effects. But it does create these kinds of effects. Now new players don't trust each other because everyone is telling them how inadequate they are. This effect makes it so people who should be training together do not train together. They only want to train when the bulk of the squad is experienced and allowing them to do so. This creates a disparity between the purpose of the public LFG and privately organized guilds. Now the LFG is only mostly usable for veterans, and private guilds are mostly being used to train people. That actually doesn't make sense when you stop to think about it. And these are the types of reasons why even thinking about wanting to become involved in the raid community is nothing but a large hassle.

This isn't entirely the fault of an elite meta forming and the website resource in which it is taught. It is also a problem on the community's end. Really it's a 50/50 kind of thing we have going on. Newer players need to recognize their inexperience and start playing together for a learning process instead of expecting to get into experienced groups, but elite veterans and even the snowcrow resources needs to recognize that elite expectation staples are not helping matters. Nothing could be more unmotivating for wanting to stick around the game mode.

You are making 1 assumption which I find hard to support or agree with:You assume that the players who are unable to in the current situation to find builds, practice that build, find boss guides, commit to trainings with already created builds and properly prepare overall will suddenly become capable of doing so with less guidance.

That is a very very unrealistic assumption, especially the part where suddenly players will dedicate more time to failing.

That's not what I'm saying at all, if you go back and reread. Some of you guys have been defensing so long in this forum that you only hear what you're used to hearing. Take a look at what you yourself say next:

I was there when raids were new and people were clueless. It was way way way harder than it ever is now to succeed. We had 0 guidance and had to figure out everything on our own. Go through logs for minutes, try out different classes, barely beat the enrage timer on Vale Guardian, etc. Skipping Gorse updrafts was impossible for "regular" players, until the first videos of condition warriors came out (again being shared by the community to the community).

^ This here is what I'm talking about. In the early days when expectations were little to none outside of simply finding players who were willing to grind learn, people were actually figuring out how to clear these raids in a time when DPS was half of what it is now, and they were doing it from scratch. Raids were way harder back then. Yet people were hanging around and spending the time to do it. You know why? Because it was a time before elite expectations. Even the month long veterans were opened armed with teaching people back then. And before meta sites told everyone "the only acceptable way to run a raid" people were not afraid to join PUGmand crews and play together to learn. Then slowly but surely more and more and more expectations showed onto the scene. Some of them were good to set, like making sure a healer is present and a source of quick/alac. But others became overly perfectionist, creating large margins of overly discriminatory social stigma. After awhile, it wasn't good enough to complete a raid, the raids needed to be done perfectly, and they needed to be done in the way snowcrows presented. The biggest problem is that the teachers within the community, the veterans, all began to adhere to this idea. The interesting thing here is that not all of the veterans agreed to this ideology so willingly. What happened was more like a schoolground popularity effect. What I mean is that, the biggest coolest kids in the playground "snowcrows" are dressing a certain way or acting a certain way and encouraging a particular interest or idea in something. Some other kids see that what they are doing is working so without question they follow the lead of the older kids, which is normal. Some other kids look at it and say "well it works but it certainly isn't the ONLY way this could be done" but they keep their mouths shut and do the same thing everyone else is doing to follow the lead of the biggest oldest kids because they themselves, are wanting to avoid the hassle of discrimination. They want to avoid discrimination or falling away from the pack because they've seen what happens to the different kids or the kids doing something different or simply some minority that no one wants around. They get no play and are often kitten on. Then 5 or 6 or 7 years go by, and this ideology has become almost a tradition or maybe even like a religion. And people stop questioning it and just assume "oh this is what the game is and this is how it is" to the point that they will defend it beyond reason because well, there is still that feeling of being a part of the cool kid pack while defending it. In fact, THAT INSIDE OF ITSELF is what makes the difference between the cool kid and the different kid, is adhering to the popular establishment. The entire engine behind such propaganda or commercialism is driven by this effect. That effect is wanting to feel elite and strong and popular and accepted by others within an elite community.

This is what we all seek when we are gaming in such a scene as raids or CM fractals or even top 100 ranks in pvp. It is a feeling we chase and want to maintain. 90% of gamers will honestly agree with this and I know that is true because I have had several discussions about it in the past. Don't try to tell me I'm wrong. You know it's true. And thus notice that I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that. What I have been trying to point out is the difference between when such elitism is normal and organic and healthy and necessary or at the least convenient, and then when it becomes abnormal and unhealthy and unnecessary and inconvenient. In the early stages of HoT when DPS was very seriously half of what it is now, this kind of elitism to aim at practical raid clearing was absolutely normal. Having experienced guilds posting methods and websites to teach everyone was convenient. And booting people out who couldn't keep up to create a clear was plainly necessary. BUT NOW in 2020 when DPS is twice as high, this kind of ideological/religious elitism has become unnecessary and inconvenient and unhealthy for community participation. There is no practical reason for this anymore. Now it's just clout chasing so 900 LI players can feel like they are better than 600 LI players. Even though both of those players run mechanics nearly perfectly, the 900 LI player has a slightly higher benchmark so he rides that feeling of clout and refuses to play with the 600 LI player. When the truth is that this kind of refusal to squad up and get kitten done is killing the game mode. The truth is that a 100 LI player who lands a sloppy benchmark compared to the 600 LI player, is still perfectly capable of completing the content because DPS is so kitten high now that it doesn't matter if your benchmark is sloppy, but the 600 LI wouldn't play with the 100 LI. The truth is that in 2020 the elitism is no longer necessary for creating content completion, and it isn't healthy for community growth & participation either.

We can argue this fact on and on, but remember that even you yourself spoke about how different the participation values were upon raid release because you were there. You should sit back and really question why it was so different then than it is now. You just may find, after following the cause & effect of it all, that the only thing that changed, is higher and higher and higher expectations to allow players to participate. Which doesn't make sense because when the DPS is overall increasing and making raids easier and easier, those expectations for all intents & purposes, should have been lowered. Stop and think about it within reason rather than from the standpoint of defending snowcrows.

The harsh reality here is once again very simple:The players are willing and able to prepare (with as much as this might entail from just getting a build ready, to practice, to reading up on bosses beforehand, etc.) are the same players who would succeed in a harder environment. The "nice weather" players who can't prepare in todays climate or commit to training are the same ones which would fail not realizing they are "inexperience and start playing together for a learning process instead of expecting to get into experienced groups".

This is the least perceptive thing I've heard you say actually. These are words coming from someone who was able to benefit the early days, when there was little to no discrimination at all. You were able to learn alongside of players when everyone was new. You are the one of the ones who rode the top the tidal wave as I put it. You were allowed this equal entry alongside of the vets that are the vets now. You've been given an organic growth over an organic timeline. The expectations placed on you were nothing even in the ballpark of difficult as what are placed on new players now.

You make that statement to me, but you should look at this differently. Rather than making that statement from the standpoint of a veteran now, you should try looking at it from the standpoint as if you were a new player right now. Would you even stick around this raid scene now to learn? Would you even be able to keep up? Consider how long it took you to get to where you are now, the years of development. Now imagine if you were a new player and were being expected to perform at that level immediately.

That's not something a website influences. That's a matter of experience (from raiding in other MMOs for example), personality and approach. In fact: you are making assumptions based on the luxury you have which is being spoon fed builds and guides. Your own assumptions are heavily skewed by this and I doubt you'd be having the same assumptions IF you had actually raided during a time where there were no guides at all. Even new wing releases are a joke now because in essence it all boils down to which of the already known builds work best, then run with that.

Assumptions assumptions! Lots of assumptions here. I guess you already know everything about me, or at least assume it.

I can draw direct comparisons between the first weeks (very first week of wing 1) and months, coming back during wing 3 shortly before wing 4 release and taking a break after wing 5 and coming back a few months before wing 6 release as to how hard raiding is. It has become progressively easier without compare. Even the resources available have grown exponentially. Dps meters, a damage golem, multiple classes which are viable for roles, discords left and right, experienced players to ask, guilds who are constantly recruiting, even "simple" guides for people who want more simple rotations, that has all grown through the raid community for the raid community (and a lot of spillover into other game modes like open world build guides etc.).

Yes but these tools are designed for the pre-existent raid community, which is great. But they don't cater so well to new players and their entry. And that doesn't fare well for the growth of the game mode or community participation.

Hey man, I never said snowcrows or any of these tools were bad. I said that they were a double-bladed sword. And that is true.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:To me, this isn't about "who's right or wrong" "is snowcrows really at fault" but more so this is about what can be done to bring in raid participation. Right now the learning curve & what is expected for new players showing up on the scene now in 2020 is just too high to be reasonable. Something needs to be done to make it easier for newer players to just get their feet into the raid so they can feel the content and begin learning it without it being a massively try hard scheduled organization.

As I've said before, the real difficulty of the raid mode is not the raid bosses, but rather it is fighting through the social stigma of the community to even be able to find people who will let you participate. No game mode should feel that way, and it certainly isn't confusing to me as to why players are no longer sticking around to learn. They don't stick around because it is a ridiculous notion that they would keep needing to "prove themselves" over and over when they already know they are capable of completing the content, yet this is never good enough, and people are wanting them to aim at perfections if they are allowed to participate at all.

This is only true for the people who expect to be carried or who have issues with social anxiety or want to remain solo players in a MMO. One of the casual guilds I am in has regular new players join from scratch and practice and improve and some continue to raid, some quit, some take a break from the game. The biggest issue here for group creation is that the LFG is simply not designed for this complex of a squad setup or group creation.

Just think back to the way things were before all the ideologies & tools & religions & clout chasing. It's a far cry from what things have become now. The real importance of this thread and the discussions here-in are to figure out why.

TL;DR

:Players who can't cut it in todays raid environment would have had even less a chance in the past.

That is absolutely untrue. And to be perfectly honest, I wish I could view an alternate reality where YOU saying that right now, were to come into the game as a new player in the alternate reality in 2020. I'd like to see if you as a new player in 2020 were to even care enough or have the sweaty try hard to keep up and be able to endure the phases of hazing during raid initiation, to stick around to learn.

I've personally heard a few veterans tell me that "If I was a new player now, I wouldn't even worry about learning raids. It's become too stressful." and those are guys who've been in the scene since HoT release.

What is stopping all these new people that want to raid from getting 9 other new people and do the same thing the early day guys did?The answer is Nothing at all but they have information to help them if they want to use it.

[Ooops.8694]

@"Blumpf.2518" said:Yesterday i watched a group doing Adina in a Stream. Boonthief, RenegadeHealAlac, Soulbeast, BS, 6x Dragonhunter.Speedkill setup with over 30k DPS for each damagedealer. They had 1 Pillarspawn each phase, so high was the DPS.Should have been an easy bosskill.But what happened? They wiped about 10 times with their speedkill setup before finally killing the boss and guess why?No Boon removal - Retaliation killed the dragonhunters within an instant.Low Heal - Damage to group could not be healed completely.Or people just walked into Adinas sandray attack. Their "skill" was only maxDPS based, but movement "skill" wasnt there.

Switching a Dragonhunter for a 2nd healer, maybe a necro who does shields on 10 people and brings projectile blocking poison cloud and boon removal or a chrono who just keeps 3 swordclones on Adina that remove Boons and brings a focus for projectile reflect wouldve solved their problem. The DPS would still have been superhigh to still only have 1 Pillar per phase. But instead of first trying the boss with a safe setup they wasted so much time with their speedkill setup and had a lot of unneccessary wipes and that only because they chose DPS over more sustain.

And thats what snowcrows is promoting, that DPS is better than everything else, which leads to situations like this.

Do i really read this correctly? You blame snowcrows for the fact that you saw a bad group that did not play their promoted team composition wipe multiple times? You must be kidding...

[lare.5129]

at first we should understand that raid is dead content, it depend from 10 ppl, not 5, so no one can destroy that it already in dark state.and second, the current raid not depend from mechanic, also mechanic is not friendly, and strange.So if 5 ppl can take ptv set and compete 10 intance - it is challenged content, and we see only 2% raiding .. So SC is not destroy, thay keep breath it for that 2% only. For others, as I say it is dead.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:It was never snowcrows intention, I'm sure, that such a resource would create certain sociological effects. But it does create these kinds of effects. Now new players don't trust each other because everyone is telling them how inadequate they are. This effect makes it so people who should be training together do not train together. They only want to train when the bulk of the squad is experienced and allowing them to do so. This creates a disparity between the purpose of the public LFG and privately organized guilds. Now the LFG is only mostly usable for veterans, and private guilds are mostly being used to train people. That actually doesn't make sense when you stop to think about it. And these are the types of reasons why even thinking about wanting to become involved in the raid community is nothing but a large hassle.

This isn't entirely the fault of an elite meta forming and the website resource in which it is taught. It is also a problem on the community's end. Really it's a 50/50 kind of thing we have going on. Newer players need to recognize their inexperience and start playing together for a learning process instead of expecting to get into experienced groups, but elite veterans and even the snowcrow resources needs to recognize that elite expectation staples are not helping matters. Nothing could be more unmotivating for wanting to stick around the game mode.

You are making 1 assumption which I find hard to support or agree with:You assume that the players who are unable to in the current situation to find builds, practice that build, find boss guides, commit to trainings with already created builds and properly prepare overall will suddenly become capable of doing so with less guidance.

That is a very very unrealistic assumption, especially the part where suddenly players will dedicate more time to failing.

That's not what I'm saying at all, if you go back and reread. Some of you guys have been defensing so long in this forum that you only hear what you're used to hearing. Take a look at what you yourself say next:

I was there when raids were new and people were clueless. It was way way way harder than it ever is now to succeed. We had 0 guidance and had to figure out everything on our own. Go through logs for minutes, try out different classes, barely beat the enrage timer on Vale Guardian, etc. Skipping Gorse updrafts was impossible for "regular" players, until the first videos of condition warriors came out (again being shared by the community to the community).

^ This here is what I'm talking about. In the early days when expectations were little to none outside of simply finding players who were willing to grind learn, people were actually figuring out how to clear these raids in a time when DPS was half of what it is now, and they were doing it from scratch. Raids were way harder back then. Yet people were hanging around and spending the time to do it. You know why? Because it was a time before elite expectations. Even the month long veterans were opened armed with teaching people back then. And before meta sites told everyone "the only acceptable way to run a raid" people were not afraid to join PUGmand crews and play together to learn. Then slowly but surely more and more and more expectations showed onto the scene. Some of them were good to set, like making sure a healer is present and a source of quick/alac. But others became overly perfectionist, creating large margins of overly discriminatory social stigma. After awhile, it wasn't good enough to complete a raid, the raids needed to be done perfectly, and they needed to be done in the way snowcrows presented. The biggest problem is that the teachers within the community, the veterans, all began to adhere to this idea. The interesting thing here is that not all of the veterans agreed to this ideology so willingly. What happened was more like a schoolground popularity effect. What I mean is that, the biggest coolest kids in the playground "snowcrows" are dressing a certain way or acting a certain way and encouraging a particular interest or idea in something. Some other kids see that what they are doing is working so without question they follow the lead of the older kids, which is normal. Some other kids look at it and say "well it works but it certainly isn't the ONLY way this could be done" but they keep their mouths shut and do the same thing everyone else is doing to follow the lead of the biggest oldest kids because they themselves, are wanting to avoid the hassle of discrimination. They want to avoid discrimination or falling away from the pack because they've seen what happens to the different kids or the kids doing something different or simply some minority that no one wants around. They get no play and are often kitten on. Then 5 or 6 or 7 years go by, and this ideology has become almost a tradition or maybe even like a religion. And people stop questioning it and just assume "oh this is what the game is and this is how it is" to the point that they will defend it beyond reason because well, there is still that feeling of being a part of the cool kid pack while defending it. In fact, THAT INSIDE OF ITSELF is what makes the difference between the cool kid and the different kid, is adhering to the popular establishment. The entire engine behind such propaganda or commercialism is driven by this effect. That effect is wanting to feel elite and strong and popular and accepted by others within an elite community.

This is what we all seek when we are gaming in such a scene as raids or CM fractals or even top 100 ranks in pvp. It is a feeling we chase and want to maintain. 90% of gamers will honestly agree with this and I know that is true because I have had several discussions about it in the past. Don't try to tell me I'm wrong. You know it's true. And thus notice that I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that. What I have been trying to point out is the difference between when such elitism is normal and organic and healthy and necessary or at the least convenient, and then when it becomes abnormal and unhealthy and unnecessary and inconvenient. In the early stages of HoT when DPS was very seriously half of what it is now, this kind of elitism to aim at practical raid clearing was absolutely normal. Having experienced guilds posting methods and websites to teach everyone was convenient. And booting people out who couldn't keep up to create a clear was plainly necessary. BUT NOW in 2020 when DPS is twice as high, this kind of ideological/religious elitism has become unnecessary and inconvenient and unhealthy for community participation. There is no practical reason for this anymore. Now it's just clout chasing so 900 LI players can feel like they are better than 600 LI players. Even though both of those players run mechanics nearly perfectly, the 900 LI player has a slightly higher benchmark so he rides that feeling of clout and refuses to play with the 600 LI player. When the truth is that this kind of refusal to squad up and get kitten done is killing the game mode. The truth is that a 100 LI player who lands a sloppy benchmark compared to the 600 LI player, is still perfectly capable of completing the content because DPS is so kitten high now that it doesn't matter if your benchmark is sloppy, but the 600 LI wouldn't play with the 100 LI. The truth is that in 2020 the elitism is no longer necessary for creating content completion, and it isn't healthy for community growth & participation either.

We can argue this fact on and on, but remember that even you yourself spoke about how different the participation values were upon raid release because you were there. You should sit back and really question why it was so different then than it is now. You just may find, after following the cause & effect of it all, that the only thing that changed, is higher and higher and higher expectations to allow players to participate. Which doesn't make sense because when the DPS is overall increasing and making raids easier and easier, those expectations for all intents & purposes, should have been lowered. Stop and think about it within reason rather than from the standpoint of defending snowcrows.

The harsh reality here is once again very simple:The players are willing and able to prepare (with as much as this might entail from just getting a build ready, to practice, to reading up on bosses beforehand, etc.) are the same players who would succeed in a harder environment. The "nice weather" players who can't prepare in todays climate or commit to training are the same ones which would fail not realizing they are "inexperience and start playing together for a learning process instead of expecting to get into experienced groups".

This is the least perceptive thing I've heard you say actually. These are words coming from someone who was able to benefit the early days, when there was little to no discrimination at all. You were able to learn alongside of players when everyone was new. You are the one of the ones who rode the top the tidal wave as I put it. You were allowed this equal entry alongside of the vets that are the vets now. You've been given an organic growth over an organic timeline. The expectations placed on you were nothing even in the ballpark of difficult as what are placed on new players now.

You make that statement to me, but you should look at this differently. Rather than making that statement from the standpoint of a veteran now, you should try looking at it from the standpoint as if you were a new player right now. Would you even stick around this raid scene now to learn? Would you even be able to keep up? Consider how long it took you to get to where you are now, the years of development. Now imagine if you were a new player and were being expected to perform at that level immediately.

That's not something a website influences. That's a matter of experience (from raiding in other MMOs for example), personality and approach. In fact: you are making assumptions based on the luxury you have which is being spoon fed builds and guides. Your own assumptions are heavily skewed by this and I doubt you'd be having the same assumptions IF you had actually raided during a time where there were no guides at all. Even new wing releases are a joke now because in essence it all boils down to which of the already known builds work best, then run with that.

Assumptions assumptions! Lots of assumptions here. I guess you already know everything about me, or at least assume it.

I can draw direct comparisons between the first weeks (very first week of wing 1) and months, coming back during wing 3 shortly before wing 4 release and taking a break after wing 5 and coming back a few months before wing 6 release as to how hard raiding is. It has become progressively easier without compare. Even the resources available have grown exponentially. Dps meters, a damage golem, multiple classes which are viable for roles, discords left and right, experienced players to ask, guilds who are constantly recruiting, even "simple" guides for people who want more simple rotations, that has all grown through the raid community for the raid community (and a lot of spillover into other game modes like open world build guides etc.).

Yes but these tools are designed for the pre-existent raid community, which is great. But they don't cater so well to new players and their entry. And that doesn't fare well for the growth of the game mode or community participation.

Hey man, I never said snowcrows or any of these tools were bad. I said that they were a double-bladed sword. And that is true.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:To me, this isn't about "who's right or wrong" "is snowcrows really at fault" but more so this is about what can be done to bring in raid participation. Right now the learning curve & what is expected for new players showing up on the scene now in 2020 is just too high to be reasonable. Something needs to be done to make it easier for newer players to just get their feet into the raid so they can feel the content and begin learning it without it being a massively try hard scheduled organization.

As I've said before, the real difficulty of the raid mode is not the raid bosses, but rather it is fighting through the social stigma of the community to even be able to find people who will let you participate. No game mode should feel that way, and it certainly isn't confusing to me as to why players are no longer sticking around to learn. They don't stick around because it is a ridiculous notion that they would keep needing to "prove themselves" over and over when they already know they are capable of completing the content, yet this is never good enough, and people are wanting them to aim at perfections if they are allowed to participate at all.

This is only true for the people who expect to be carried or who have issues with social anxiety or want to remain solo players in a MMO. One of the casual guilds I am in has regular new players join from scratch and practice and improve and some continue to raid, some quit, some take a break from the game. The biggest issue here for group creation is that the LFG is simply not designed for this complex of a squad setup or group creation.

Just think back to the way things were before all the ideologies & tools & religions & clout chasing. It's a far cry from what things have become now. The real importance of this thread and the discussions here-in are to figure out why.

TL;DR

:Players who can't cut it in todays raid environment would have had even less a chance in the past.

That is absolutely untrue. And to be perfectly honest, I wish I could view an alternate reality where YOU saying that right now, were to come into the game as a new player in the alternate reality in 2020. I'd like to see if you as a new player in 2020 were to even care enough or have the sweaty try hard to keep up and be able to endure the phases of hazing during raid initiation, to stick around to learn.

I've personally heard a few veterans tell me that "If I was a new player now, I wouldn't even worry about learning raids. It's become too stressful." and those are guys who've been in the scene since HoT release.

What is stopping all these new people that want to raid from getting 9 other new people and do the same thing the early day guys did?The answer is Nothing at all but they have information to help them if they want to use it.

I've answered that question several times already in my posts here.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Yet people were hanging around and spending the time to do it. You know why? Because it was a time before elite expectations.

No, because players who tried raids had a raider mentality. Stop assuming every player is willing to invest hours upon hours in figuring stuff out themselves, because most do not.

Most aren't even willing to practice or come up with their own builds. To assume those players would invest even more time is funny.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Even the month long veterans were opened armed with teaching people back then. And before meta sites told everyone "the only acceptable way to run a raid" people were not afraid to join PUGmand crews and play together to learn.

Really? Was that the reason why elementalist was the only acceptable power damage class within weeks and for months if not years? You are literally making things up.

If at all, it is more acceptable than ever to run something besides meta builds today given arc shows your performance and top tier performance is not needed. NO ONE IS DEMANDING PEOPLE RUN A SC META BUILD. Even less in training raids. What is expected is that players run a build which full-fills the role and eventually learn and perform on it. Everyone is free to invest time and test as much as they want. Unfortunately most players don't do so. That does not mean it is not possible.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:After awhile, it wasn't good enough to complete a raid, the raids needed to be done perfectly, and they needed to be done in the way snowcrows presented.

That was never true for training runs and still remains to be untrue. You are mixing raid groups again and making claims which might be true for more experienced groups but not true for trainings groups.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:This is what we all seek when we are gaming in such a scene as raids or CM fractals or even top 100 ranks in pvp. It is a feeling we chase and want to maintain. 90% of gamers will honestly agree with this and I know that is true because I have had several discussions about it in the past. Don't try to tell me I'm wrong.

I don't have to tell you about this being wrong., You are obviously not talking about raid trainings. You are doing this wonderful thing where you take 1 part of how groups form and then claiming this is true for every group, which it simply is not.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:And thus notice that I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that. What I have been trying to point out is the difference between when such elitism is normal and organic and healthy and necessary or at the least convenient, and then when it becomes abnormal and unhealthy and unnecessary and inconvenient. In the early stages of HoT when DPS was very seriously half of what it is now, this kind of elitism to aim at practical raid clearing was absolutely normal. Having experienced guilds posting methods and websites to teach everyone was convenient. And booting people out who couldn't keep up to create a clear was plainly necessary. BUT NOW in 2020 when DPS is twice as high, this kind of ideological/religious elitism has become unnecessary and inconvenient and unhealthy for community participation. There is no practical reason for this anymore. Now it's just clout chasing so 900 LI players can feel like they are better than 600 LI players. Even though both of those players run mechanics nearly perfectly, the 900 LI player has a slightly higher benchmark so he rides that feeling of clout and refuses to play with the 600 LI player. When the truth is that this kind of refusal to squad up and get kitten done is killing the game mode. The truth is that a 100 LI player who lands a sloppy benchmark compared to the 600 LI player, is still perfectly capable of completing the content because DPS is so kitten high now that it doesn't matter if your benchmark is sloppy, but the 600 LI wouldn't play with the 100 LI. The truth is that in 2020 the elitism is no longer necessary for creating content completion, and it isn't healthy for community growth & participation either.

The truth is that LI at any of those mentioned levels have nothing to do with how a player will perform, but rather the individual players skill. Since we have no metric of judging how good a player is, the assumption made is that one who has more experience is more likely to be better, which is often even untrue.

That has NOTHING to do with training runs, SC or remotely players who have issues getting into raids.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:We can argue this fact on and on, but remember that even you yourself spoke about how different the participation values were upon raid release because you were there. You should sit back and really question why it was so different then than it is now. You just may find, after following the cause & effect of it all, that the only thing that changed, is higher and higher and higher expectations to allow players to participate. Which doesn't make sense because when the DPS is overall increasing and making raids easier and easier, those expectations for all intents & purposes, should have been lowered. Stop and think about it within reason rather than from the standpoint of defending snowcrows.

The participation values for raids were low on release and eventually grew. They started dropping with:

• the content seeing less development (as has been the case for EVERY type of content in this game when it was neglected)
• the moment legendary armor was "finished" achievement wise and the main carrot was done
• the overall lack of content for the game, which on top of reduced raid content made even more players take a break (which compounded on top of the raid development)

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The harsh reality here is once again very simple:The players are willing and able to prepare (with as much as this might entail from just getting a build ready, to practice, to reading up on bosses beforehand, etc.) are the same players who would succeed in a harder environment. The "nice weather" players who can't prepare in todays climate or commit to training are the same ones which would fail not realizing they are "inexperience and start playing together for a learning process instead of expecting to get into experienced groups".

This is the least perceptive thing I've heard you say actually. These are words coming from someone who was able to benefit the early days, when there was little to no discrimination at all. You were able to learn alongside of players when everyone was new. You are the one of the ones who rode the top the tidal wave as I put it. You were allowed this equal entry alongside of the vets that are the vets now. You've been given an organic growth over an organic timeline. The expectations placed on you were nothing even in the ballpark of difficult as what are placed on new players now.

What the FUCK are you talking about. There was discrimination within 2 weeks of release. Power damage was elementalist only. Kill experience was required in PUG groups, most PUG groups where unsuccessful for weeks even to clear content. Please just stop. You are making things up and basing all your arguments on assumptions because you clearly were never raiding at the start.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:You make that statement to me, but you should look at this differently. Rather than making that statement from the standpoint of a veteran now, you should try looking at it from the standpoint as if you were a new player right now. Would you even stick around this raid scene now to learn? Would you even be able to keep up? Consider how long it took you to get to where you are now, the years of development. Now imagine if you were a new player and were being expected to perform at that level immediately.

Yes I would IF I am a raider and enjoy raids. I know I'd be able to keep up because I have seen players enter the raiding scene both via my training as well as the static full clear group I run with which have started as late as 6 months ago, and who are able to meet SC benchmarks without issue and full clear all 7 wings within great times. Want to guess what they had? A mentality how to approach raid content and improve.

NO ONE IS EXPECTING A NEW PLAYER TO PERFORM AT SC LEVELS! Stop saying such nonsense. If you have that kind of raid lead for your training, ditch him. Stop making this nonsense claim. In a regular training run for absolutely new players the only thing required is LITERALLY participation. Ideally with maybe having read a bit about raiding. Please stop mixing more advanced groups with where new players SHOULD be starting: at the beginning.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I can draw direct comparisons between the first weeks (very first week of wing 1) and months, coming back during wing 3 shortly before wing 4 release and taking a break after wing 5 and coming back a few months before wing 6 release as to how hard raiding is. It has become progressively easier without compare. Even the resources available have grown exponentially. Dps meters, a damage golem, multiple classes which are viable for roles, discords left and right, experienced players to ask, guilds who are constantly recruiting, even "simple" guides for people who want more simple rotations, that has all grown through the raid community for the raid community (and a lot of spillover into other game modes like open world build guides etc.).

Yes but these tools are designed for the pre-existent raid community, which is great. But they don't cater so well to new players and their entry. And that doesn't fare well for the growth of the game mode or community participation.

Hey man, I never said snowcrows or any of these tools were bad. I said that they were a double-bladed sword. And that is true.

Those tools literally allow for a mentor to pinpoint where a player has issues. Or would allow a player to find their own mistakes IF they were so inclined to learn how to use the tools. Lucky enough, there are veterans to ask for advice.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

TL;DR

:Players who can't cut it in todays raid environment would have had even less a chance in the past.

That is absolutely untrue. And to be perfectly honest, I wish I could view an alternate reality where YOU saying that right now, were to come into the game as a new player in the alternate reality in 2020. I'd like to see if you as a new player in 2020 were to even care enough or have the sweaty try hard to keep up and be able to endure the phases of hazing during raid initiation, to stick around to learn.

I have done so in other games. I had to do so twice in this game which is exactly WHY I mentioned when I had my GW2 breaks. I came back after multiple months of break, in one case nearly 2 years and had to:

• learn entirely new classes, rotations, setups, etc.
• find a new guild and social community to raid with
• practice new bosses which were unfamiliar to me

The only thing I took over was the experience from having it done before and how to approach it. That is: get to the golem and start practicing my rotation, read up on bosses and be taught how the boss mechanics work.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I've personally heard a few veterans tell me that "If I was a new player now, I wouldn't even worry about learning raids. It's become too stressful." and those are guys who've been in the scene since HoT release.

Yes, it is more stressful to veterans. What do you think this thread is? Veteran players help as best they can, and is still not enough. The demands are more more more. Having to fill up a new roster over and over and over is stressful. There are 7 wings now with multiple classes and roles. Most veterans are under pressure to perform at a far higher level than any beginner groups because on the one hand you want your clear as fast as possible after having run the boss 300 times, but those groups demand you multiclass. At the same time the raid community shrinks and it becomes more and more work to keep a steady quality field of players.

The reason veterans are stressed can have many reasons which are absolutely not affecting a new player or the resources available.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:It was never snowcrows intention, I'm sure, that such a resource would create certain sociological effects. But it does create these kinds of effects. Now new players don't trust each other because everyone is telling them how inadequate they are. This effect makes it so people who should be training together do not train together. They only want to train when the bulk of the squad is experienced and allowing them to do so. This creates a disparity between the purpose of the public LFG and privately organized guilds. Now the LFG is only mostly usable for veterans, and private guilds are mostly being used to train people. That actually doesn't make sense when you stop to think about it. And these are the types of reasons why even thinking about wanting to become involved in the raid community is nothing but a large hassle.

This isn't entirely the fault of an elite meta forming and the website resource in which it is taught. It is also a problem on the community's end. Really it's a 50/50 kind of thing we have going on. Newer players need to recognize their inexperience and start playing together for a learning process instead of expecting to get into experienced groups, but elite veterans and even the snowcrow resources needs to recognize that elite expectation staples are not helping matters. Nothing could be more unmotivating for wanting to stick around the game mode.

You are making 1 assumption which I find hard to support or agree with:You assume that the players who are unable to in the current situation to find builds, practice that build, find boss guides, commit to trainings with already created builds and properly prepare overall will suddenly become capable of doing so with less guidance.

That is a very very unrealistic assumption, especially the part where suddenly players will dedicate more time to failing.

That's not what I'm saying at all, if you go back and reread. Some of you guys have been defensing so long in this forum that you only hear what you're used to hearing. Take a look at what you yourself say next:

I was there when raids were new and people were clueless. It was way way way harder than it ever is now to succeed. We had 0 guidance and had to figure out everything on our own. Go through logs for minutes, try out different classes, barely beat the enrage timer on Vale Guardian, etc. Skipping Gorse updrafts was impossible for "regular" players, until the first videos of condition warriors came out (again being shared by the community to the community).

^ This here is what I'm talking about. In the early days when expectations were little to none outside of simply finding players who were willing to grind learn, people were actually figuring out how to clear these raids in a time when DPS was half of what it is now, and they were doing it from scratch. Raids were way harder back then. Yet people were hanging around and spending the time to do it. You know why? Because it was a time before elite expectations. Even the month long veterans were opened armed with teaching people back then. And before meta sites told everyone "the only acceptable way to run a raid" people were not afraid to join PUGmand crews and play together to learn. Then slowly but surely more and more and more expectations showed onto the scene. Some of them were good to set, like making sure a healer is present and a source of quick/alac. But others became overly perfectionist, creating large margins of overly discriminatory social stigma. After awhile, it wasn't good enough to complete a raid, the raids needed to be done perfectly, and they needed to be done in the way snowcrows presented. The biggest problem is that the teachers within the community, the veterans, all began to adhere to this idea. The interesting thing here is that not all of the veterans agreed to this ideology so willingly. What happened was more like a schoolground popularity effect. What I mean is that, the biggest coolest kids in the playground "snowcrows" are dressing a certain way or acting a certain way and encouraging a particular interest or idea in something. Some other kids see that what they are doing is working so without question they follow the lead of the older kids, which is normal. Some other kids look at it and say "well it works but it certainly isn't the ONLY way this could be done" but they keep their mouths shut and do the same thing everyone else is doing to follow the lead of the biggest oldest kids because they themselves, are wanting to avoid the hassle of discrimination. They want to avoid discrimination or falling away from the pack because they've seen what happens to the different kids or the kids doing something different or simply some minority that no one wants around. They get no play and are often kitten on. Then 5 or 6 or 7 years go by, and this ideology has become almost a tradition or maybe even like a religion. And people stop questioning it and just assume "oh this is what the game is and this is how it is" to the point that they will defend it beyond reason because well, there is still that feeling of being a part of the cool kid pack while defending it. In fact, THAT INSIDE OF ITSELF is what makes the difference between the cool kid and the different kid, is adhering to the popular establishment. The entire engine behind such propaganda or commercialism is driven by this effect. That effect is wanting to feel elite and strong and popular and accepted by others within an elite community.

This is what we all seek when we are gaming in such a scene as raids or CM fractals or even top 100 ranks in pvp. It is a feeling we chase and want to maintain. 90% of gamers will honestly agree with this and I know that is true because I have had several discussions about it in the past. Don't try to tell me I'm wrong. You know it's true. And thus notice that I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that. What I have been trying to point out is the difference between when such elitism is normal and organic and healthy and necessary or at the least convenient, and then when it becomes abnormal and unhealthy and unnecessary and inconvenient. In the early stages of HoT when DPS was very seriously half of what it is now, this kind of elitism to aim at practical raid clearing was absolutely normal. Having experienced guilds posting methods and websites to teach everyone was convenient. And booting people out who couldn't keep up to create a clear was plainly necessary. BUT NOW in 2020 when DPS is twice as high, this kind of ideological/religious elitism has become unnecessary and inconvenient and unhealthy for community participation. There is no practical reason for this anymore. Now it's just clout chasing so 900 LI players can feel like they are better than 600 LI players. Even though both of those players run mechanics nearly perfectly, the 900 LI player has a slightly higher benchmark so he rides that feeling of clout and refuses to play with the 600 LI player. When the truth is that this kind of refusal to squad up and get kitten done is killing the game mode. The truth is that a 100 LI player who lands a sloppy benchmark compared to the 600 LI player, is still perfectly capable of completing the content because DPS is so kitten high now that it doesn't matter if your benchmark is sloppy, but the 600 LI wouldn't play with the 100 LI. The truth is that in 2020 the elitism is no longer necessary for creating content completion, and it isn't healthy for community growth & participation either.

We can argue this fact on and on, but remember that even you yourself spoke about how different the participation values were upon raid release because you were there. You should sit back and really question why it was so different then than it is now. You just may find, after following the cause & effect of it all, that the only thing that changed, is higher and higher and higher expectations to allow players to participate. Which doesn't make sense because when the DPS is overall increasing and making raids easier and easier, those expectations for all intents & purposes, should have been lowered. Stop and think about it within reason rather than from the standpoint of defending snowcrows.

The harsh reality here is once again very simple:The players are willing and able to prepare (with as much as this might entail from just getting a build ready, to practice, to reading up on bosses beforehand, etc.) are the same players who would succeed in a harder environment. The "nice weather" players who can't prepare in todays climate or commit to training are the same ones which would fail not realizing they are "inexperience and start playing together for a learning process instead of expecting to get into experienced groups".

This is the least perceptive thing I've heard you say actually. These are words coming from someone who was able to benefit the early days, when there was little to no discrimination at all. You were able to learn alongside of players when everyone was new. You are the one of the ones who rode the top the tidal wave as I put it. You were allowed this equal entry alongside of the vets that are the vets now. You've been given an organic growth over an organic timeline. The expectations placed on you were nothing even in the ballpark of difficult as what are placed on new players now.

You make that statement to me, but you should look at this differently. Rather than making that statement from the standpoint of a veteran now, you should try looking at it from the standpoint as if you were a new player right now. Would you even stick around this raid scene now to learn? Would you even be able to keep up? Consider how long it took you to get to where you are now, the years of development. Now imagine if you were a new player and were being expected to perform at that level immediately.

That's not something a website influences. That's a matter of experience (from raiding in other MMOs for example), personality and approach. In fact: you are making assumptions based on the luxury you have which is being spoon fed builds and guides. Your own assumptions are heavily skewed by this and I doubt you'd be having the same assumptions IF you had actually raided during a time where there were no guides at all. Even new wing releases are a joke now because in essence it all boils down to which of the already known builds work best, then run with that.

Assumptions assumptions! Lots of assumptions here. I guess you already know everything about me, or at least assume it.

I can draw direct comparisons between the first weeks (very first week of wing 1) and months, coming back during wing 3 shortly before wing 4 release and taking a break after wing 5 and coming back a few months before wing 6 release as to how hard raiding is. It has become progressively easier without compare. Even the resources available have grown exponentially. Dps meters, a damage golem, multiple classes which are viable for roles, discords left and right, experienced players to ask, guilds who are constantly recruiting, even "simple" guides for people who want more simple rotations, that has all grown through the raid community for the raid community (and a lot of spillover into other game modes like open world build guides etc.).

Yes but these tools are designed for the pre-existent raid community, which is great. But they don't cater so well to new players and their entry. And that doesn't fare well for the growth of the game mode or community participation.

Hey man, I never said snowcrows or any of these tools were bad. I said that they were a double-bladed sword. And that is true.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:To me, this isn't about "who's right or wrong" "is snowcrows really at fault" but more so this is about what can be done to bring in raid participation. Right now the learning curve & what is expected for new players showing up on the scene now in 2020 is just too high to be reasonable. Something needs to be done to make it easier for newer players to just get their feet into the raid so they can feel the content and begin learning it without it being a massively try hard scheduled organization.

As I've said before, the real difficulty of the raid mode is not the raid bosses, but rather it is fighting through the social stigma of the community to even be able to find people who will let you participate. No game mode should feel that way, and it certainly isn't confusing to me as to why players are no longer sticking around to learn. They don't stick around because it is a ridiculous notion that they would keep needing to "prove themselves" over and over when they already know they are capable of completing the content, yet this is never good enough, and people are wanting them to aim at perfections if they are allowed to participate at all.

This is only true for the people who expect to be carried or who have issues with social anxiety or want to remain solo players in a MMO. One of the casual guilds I am in has regular new players join from scratch and practice and improve and some continue to raid, some quit, some take a break from the game. The biggest issue here for group creation is that the LFG is simply not designed for this complex of a squad setup or group creation.

Just think back to the way things were before all the ideologies & tools & religions & clout chasing. It's a far cry from what things have become now. The real importance of this thread and the discussions here-in are to figure out why.

TL;DR

:Players who can't cut it in todays raid environment would have had even less a chance in the past.

That is absolutely untrue. And to be perfectly honest, I wish I could view an alternate reality where YOU saying that right now, were to come into the game as a new player in the alternate reality in 2020. I'd like to see if you as a new player in 2020 were to even care enough or have the sweaty try hard to keep up and be able to endure the phases of hazing during raid initiation, to stick around to learn.

I've personally heard a few veterans tell me that "If I was a new player now, I wouldn't even worry about learning raids. It's become too stressful." and those are guys who've been in the scene since HoT release.

What is stopping all these new people that want to raid from getting 9 other new people and do the same thing the early day guys did?The answer is Nothing at all but they have information to help them if they want to use it.

I've answered that question several times already in my posts here.

Which does not change the fact that it is true that players could form groups if they wanted to. In fact, the casual raid guild I am in did just that 2 years ago. They started as a guild to run raids and failed for months on VG. They moved on and are now clearing all wings rather safe except for wing 5.

Just as fellow members who joined us just now from a sort of sister guild where the exact same approach was taken: they started as a guild group and failed for ages until they had success. Unfortunately for them, the guild lost a lot of members to breaks and some of them are phasing into the first guild.

Turns out, if the players bring the mentality to raid and succeed, they can.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@"Blumpf.2518" said:Yesterday i watched a group doing Adina in a Stream. Boonthief, RenegadeHealAlac, Soulbeast, BS, 6x Dragonhunter.Speedkill setup with over 30k DPS for each damagedealer. They had 1 Pillarspawn each phase, so high was the DPS.Should have been an easy bosskill.But what happened? They wiped about 10 times with their speedkill setup before finally killing the boss and guess why?No Boon removal - Retaliation killed the dragonhunters within an instant.Low Heal - Damage to group could not be healed completely.Or people just walked into Adinas sandray attack. Their "skill" was only maxDPS based, but movement "skill" wasnt there.

Switching a Dragonhunter for a 2nd healer, maybe a necro who does shields on 10 people and brings projectile blocking poison cloud and boon removal or a chrono who just keeps 3 swordclones on Adina that remove Boons and brings a focus for projectile reflect wouldve solved their problem. The DPS would still have been superhigh to still only have 1 Pillar per phase. But instead of first trying the boss with a safe setup they wasted so much time with their speedkill setup and had a lot of unneccessary wipes and that only because they chose DPS over more sustain.

And thats what snowcrows is promoting, that DPS is better than everything else, which leads to situations like this.

What's your experience with raids?

The DPS killing themselves to retal is because they were greeding DPS. The dragonhunters should have popped litany if they were to going to do that. Boonstrip isn't necessary. Those with that setup may have been trying to do a speed clear so going to a more defensive comp would have defeated the purpose.

What I find hilarious is that you blame snowcrows for this when this isn't even the comp listed on their website.

[Fangoth.4503]

@Luci.7018 said:

The problem for new players , is that there are not enough guilds that do 1-7 wings , in order to accumulate experience and either take the path to either :1) Form their own low skilled group2) improve their dps and be welcomed into the experienced groups

You and me , we are both bored/too old to teach them . We are trying to push the responsibility to another to teach/help the new playersIf he can't help them too , he will push the ''envelop'' to another guy , till none actually helps them:)

So untrue:-Crossroad Inn is running 4-6 squad (32-48 player) 3 day a week and had some days with close to 10 squad iirc (80player) during corona peak of activity-RTI is running also an insane number of training, i often see 7+ uncounter planned on a weekly basis which is 60 ish playereach got their pros and cons but overall they offer trainings with a quality way above what you can find in pugIt's what like 150 people that get access to training on a weekly basis and could be above if more trainee. both doing bosses from w1-7 btw

Maybe we should go with the idea of Trevor , by creating an easy mode .Its a loose /loose situation if we use this , or whatever else idea we come up , because there are 2 scenarios :a) From the ones hand the experienced players will blame the Devs for not creating new raids (and soon jump ship) , and the other side the less experienced ''will keep moaning on forums /reddit about there is no middle ground to get train - those who where lucky in the past ,got the experience''b) From the ones hand the experienced players will blame the Devs for not creating new raids (and soon jump ship) , and the other side the less experienced '' will do the instance once or twice for the ''thrill'' and then will become apathetic (because the first group never supported them) and won't side with the experienced group to pressure the company to release more Raids , nor whine in the forums reddit''

Just put the bullet in the chamber and take the blame once more:)

First its not an easy mode for several reasons:-traiding DPS for healing isn't interesting at all as you don't need that healing-we start to accept DPS player not to fulfill their job so why should we expect boon or healer to do theirs?-you are assuming that having more heal will help the player but how will it do so if the player has no idea how to use it?look at what was mentionned before adina "a dh died to retaliation", if the dh is unable to press 6 at that time how anything else will save him? you'd be better off teaching him how to deal efficiently with mechs instead of calling for more heal (gl to the healer that will be on duty to overheal dh doing their burst during retal).and all it would take is the dh to real the boss encounter on "evil" sc website: When you see the big Eye above Adina, you should use Litany of Wrath. This is because Adina is about to gain Retaliation and you can easily destroy yourself without Litany of WrathWhat trevor says rely on player being able to play properly which is not the case if they take damage in a first place and in the end makes it harder for the groupin the end you make the fight stay longer which give the group more time abd opportunity to wipe

@Luci.7018 said:

What ''solo mentality approach which comes along with not wanting to commit to playing with a group of players'' means ?Players comes into the Raids for the fun and rewards , but face 3x ''WALLS''a) KP (can be faked)b) Bring the right class + spec + food + link achivement (can be easily done , but limit the pool of players)c) Do SC rotations , while staying alive (can be done)Whoever can oblige , stays

We had 5 years , or people joining training/veteran guilds and then procced to teach other .With what result ? Less than we started with ? Becomes old enought and keep the cirle of ''someone else should teach them''? People doing over and over the same boss , in order to unlock the Legendary and then quit ?

So if the process of joining LFG /groups and stay there for more 15 min , is harder the instance then someone should put the bullet into the chamber:)Otherwise Raid , should become crowdfunded , with Druum difficulty

a) if people think lfg with kp or li req are training maybe they are better off raidsb) most training guild are very flexible on which class you can play and just make sure they have heal boon and dps covered to unsure a good training baseFood+utility less than a gold, you have 2 from daily stuff, 6ish from strike iirc, OMG BIG BIG cut in your walletright class and spec is literally copy and pasting the build codewho the hell ask for achievement??? You better go away from these training guild if they think having achievement point has an influence on raidingc) 80% is reached in 1-2h if you’re slow, 90% take a bit more time maybe 4-5h. Imagine spending few hours in a golem and save way more time because you kill the boss in a couple of try instead of spending ridiculous amount of time wiping

idk why people imagine that home made build are better than adapted one, it is not at all unless you are crazy good player but if it was the case you wouldn’t have any problem getting started with SC builds anyway.

@Trevor Boyer.6524

You forget something: raid is not personal story or meta event!Raid are not failproof meaning you actually can failSo yeah not everyone are enjoying having semi-difficult content and you cannot force player to enjoy it if they don’t.Many went at start (including I with my core necro having staff and soldier armor) and it did not end well so I gave up went to do other stuff (other game in my case) having more healing when running power toughness vitality armor would not have helped in anyways because it cannot change the fact that I didn’t had the proper mindset nor skills for doing such content and I had no intention of changing my gameplay to have a more adapted one.when I came back 4y later or so I looked up training guild, change my build and gear for sc one (went from 2k to 16k dps btw in like 5min) and focused on having a more useful impact on the encounter than bringing nothing and saying “but I bring other stuff” when called out.raid cannot be open to all because not all are willing to play this content and rather stick to easy stuff and its not due to raiding community.

Once again yes raiding could be open to all but to do so you need remove any kind of difficulty to allow anyone to play it and it would end up a world boss. If you keep anything that doesn’t allow the player to kill the boss by auto attacking with weakest build/gear, then the content will remain closed to those who are not willing to adapt their gameplay to it, and its the same for PVP, fractal, dungeon, strike mission, wvw.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Cyninja.2954 Now that's just putting words into my mouth and changing goal posts.

Anyway, I've nothing more to say here.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Any plans to stick to commenting about the arguments being made and countering them instead of attacking people? It makes your side weak when you do that.

[Ooops.8694]

The only thing pointless here is discussing with you, because the single one true thing you said is: "You cannot convince those people." Those people like you that can only repeat the same wrong stuff again and again. You don't even realize that those who talk about snowcrows only offering information are actually the nice ones that try to reason with you.But as you don't seem to bother actually reading the responses you might have missed the fact that most here aren't even that nice. They just tell you very directly how wrong you are. And they even give detailed explanations (not like you, who just talks random "facts" out of your ass then attacks people not agreeing).Seriously...You can't even write such an obvious troll post without showing that you have absolutely no clue and not even bothered to take a look at that evil website destroying raids or you might have noticed how a ranger using longbow is actually meta (with optional bonus points for knowing the difference between the suggested (optimized dps) moa and some (ferocious) bear is about ~800dps). Oh btw... that bear brings an 3sec invulnerability on a 40sec CD, which (unlike your fantastic ideas in this thread so far) can have a real use, for example ignoring mechanics at deimos. Ohh... wait... i forgot you don't care about real facts and probably know deimos only from videos that failed to explain to you why they are doing what they are doing anyway.

[Fangoth.4503]

@"Blumpf.2518" said:Its pointless anyway. There are those that see it like we do and there is the rest, the SC apologets who will defend their religion like their life depends on it. They will use everything they can to twist what you said, or even claim things that are completely ridiculus but sound convincing first like "if youre not gonna play meta, the fight will take forever with your group of bearbow rangers". You cannot convince those people. And there are those who see it like we do, but dont want the apologets to go full toxic on them so they say nothing to avoid stress, while silently agreeing to what we say.And these are the people this thread is for. The SC fanboys are lost in metathinking forever, nothing will fix that. But the rest can be convinced that there are more and other ways to play that will kill the boss too and do it way safer than with the meta sc is promoting.(Voice from the off: "THEYRE NOT PROMOTING, THEYRE OFFERING! AND IF YOU DONT ACCEPT THEIR GIFTS, YOURE A NOOB THAT DEALS NO DAMAGE! BURN THE HERETIC!)

to conclude I'm happy that you cannot make it through, glad that religion keep you out of it, might burn few more candle to celebrate \o/

[Sobx.1758]

@"Blumpf.2518" said:Its pointless anyway. There are those that see it like we do and there is the rest, the SC apologets who will defend their religion like their life depends on it. They will use everything they can to twist what you said, or even claim things that are completely ridiculus but sound convincing first like "if youre not gonna play meta, the fight will take forever with your group of bearbow rangers". You cannot convince those people. And there are those who see it like we do, but dont want the apologets to go full toxic on them so they say nothing to avoid stress, while silently agreeing to what we say.And these are the people this thread is for. The SC fanboys are lost in metathinking forever, nothing will fix that. But the rest can be convinced that there are more and other ways to play that will kill the boss too and do it way safer than with the meta sc is promoting.

Ah, yes... "either you share my opinion or you're an x apologist". Hilariously enough you're the one that fails to respond to what people say, while apparently in your world there were no meta builds/comps in games before sites like SC gained popularity. People always copied/shared effective strategies and builds, this is nothing new.

(Voice from the off: "THEYRE NOT PROMOTING, THEYRE OFFERING! AND IF YOU DONT ACCEPT THEIR GIFTS, YOURE A NOOB THAT DEALS NO DAMAGE! BURN THE HERETIC!)

From where I'm sitting this seems like a completely baseless response aimed at ridicouling someone just because you have nothing of value to say. It's true that they're not "promoting" anything, they're sharing their research and I'm not sure how that's anything bad (SC or not, people would still share and copy most effiecient builds).Also pretty sure that at least some of the people you're aiming this response at keeps saying that you don't need top tier dmg to easly succeed in raids (which is true), so your great "IF YOU DONT ACCEPT, YOURE A NOOB THAT DEALS NO DAMAGE" and "FANBOIS LOST IN METATHINKING" remarks are just false.

btw. I love the mental gymnastics you're performing with claims like "people that don't speak up actually agree with me!". Is this something you actually believe?

[Obtena.7952]

@Blumpf.2518 said:Its pointless anyway.

If you can't address people's points ... yes, your complaint about SC is completely pointless. The fact is not different than what people have said here. These sites are NOT the problem. In fact, things have MUCH IMPROVED since these sites have made their information available to players. it was a DISASTER for people before these sites existed because metapushers all had their own versions of meta. It was literally impossible to get accurate information from anywhere ... getting 'meta' builds and rotations was like a bad version of chinese whispers. Now, it is available, so when people want to push 'the best' builds and rotations, there is NO question what they are talking about ... OR if there is ... it can be verified.

Honestly, what really erks me about your thread is that you are basically saying that facts and data provided by these sites is a bad thing. It's a garbage science mentality; you have made a VERY bad correlation between data being available to people and some bad situation ingame. The truth is that bad situation is the result of the way people behave, not the data they have access to. You're just looking for something to blame for people's bad behaviour instead of pointing out the bad behaviour. I'm not a fan of the bad behaviour either ... but I'm smart enough to know it's not a website that is the cause of it. That's absurd.

[Clyan.1593]

People always raided with those builds. If you want to raid with your minion necro go create a group for like minded people, but you'll see it won't go well.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Blumpf.2518 said:And there are those who see it like we do, but dont want the apologets to go full toxic on them so they say nothing to avoid stress, while silently agreeing to what we say.

I'm the exact opposite. I've been pretty silent and completely disagree with everything you are trying to put forward in this thread. You say people don't want to post in fear of toxicity but they agree with you..it goes both ways...i'm sure there are some people like myself who aren't posting because there is no use in wading into an argument where you get your arguments and point ignored and are called a toxic apologist for not agreeing with the OP.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Blumpf.2518" said:Its pointless anyway. There are those that see it like we do and there is the rest, the SC apologets who will defend their religion like their life depends on it. They will use everything they can to twist what you said, or even claim things that are completely ridiculus but sound convincing first like "if youre not gonna play meta, the fight will take forever with your group of bearbow rangers". You cannot convince those people. And there are those who see it like we do, but dont want the apologets to go full toxic on them so they say nothing to avoid stress, while silently agreeing to what we say.And these are the people this thread is for. The SC fanboys are lost in metathinking forever, nothing will fix that. But the rest can be convinced that there are more and other ways to play that will kill the boss too and do it way safer than with the meta sc is promoting.(Voice from the off: "THEYRE NOT PROMOTING, THEYRE OFFERING! AND IF YOU DONT ACCEPT THEIR GIFTS, YOURE A NOOB THAT DEALS NO DAMAGE! BURN THE HERETIC!)

So in your mind claiming that something is not negative automatically means it is a must use. Okay, that pretty much clears up why you have your position and are unable to accept something to be a benefit without it being mandatory.

Also I love your toxic approach to discredit everyone who has a differing opinion.