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What is the purpose of Toughness?


Sifu.9745

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@Atomos.7593 said:I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

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@ASP.8093 said:

@"Atomos.7593" said:I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

No. Firebrands are a good example of a class that has a lot of AoE condi damage skills such as in this build.

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An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

! Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits! Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits! Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits! Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits!! Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits! Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits! Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits! Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits!! Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits! Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits! Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits! Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits!! Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits! Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits! Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits! Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits!! Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits! Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits! Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits! Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits!! Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits! Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits! Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits! Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits!! Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits! Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits! Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits! Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits!! Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits! Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits! Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits! Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:ElementalistThiefGuardianMesmerRanger | EngineerRevenantNecromancerWarrior

It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

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the purpose of toughness depends on the format you are playing. In general there are two things important to be succesfull.1: Stay alive2: kill your oponent as quickly as possible

The first is important to touchness. However. It is a yes or no condition. If you stay alive you done it. If you die, you didnt do enough. The second factor is more subjective as more is always better.

In general PvE without roles. Each class has to bring their own defense, but base armor, number 5 healing skill and good dodging is enough to stay alive. So thoughness is absolutly useless.

In high end content like t4 fracals and raids it is different as you have roles and some roles require defense. As explained by others, toughness is part of this, but not the only factor.

In WvW and sPvP it can be usefull as well, but again, when you invest in toughness, you lack it in DPS.

On top of it, there is a lot of thoughness ignoring damage, that isn't ignored by other stats like vitality and healing power.

I personally always thought it to be an issue with the combat system of this game. They removed the holy trinity and this is good, but it is pretty flat now. I would like to see them atleast experiment with some systems to counter this. On of it could be an environment effect during some boss fights that your dps is decreased by healthloss. This would make toughness usefull for maintaining DPS.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

! Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits! Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits! Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits! Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits!! Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits! Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits! Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits! Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits!! Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits! Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits! Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits! Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits!! Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits! Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits! Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits! Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits!! Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits! Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits! Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits! Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits!! Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits! Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits! Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits! Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits!! Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits! Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits! Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits! Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits!! Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits! Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits! Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits! Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:ElementalistThiefGuardianMesmerRanger | EngineerRevenantNecromancerWarrior

It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

This is a very helpful post. I wonder how the numbers would look like with Sentinel's instead of Soldier's. (Despite player's claims that tank builds aren't useful in this game, they are used by Commanders, so the information is still appreciated.)

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:I won't say there aren't better players out there, but I'd say it's a stretch to say that players who can do these types of things qualify as incapable of learning timing, telegraphed animations or fight mechanics.

Yeah I second that as well.While it is possible to facetank a lot of things in the game with tank builds there are many things that you will still need to use active defences against to survive.

Being it's Halloween the Lab Horror is an easy example of that.I can tank it with one of my builds, even solo kill it but even with an extremely tanky build it's not possible to facetank it because of it's insanely high damage.I have to rely on dodging, shroud tanking, Dark Bond (Necro exclusive protect), CC and backing in and out of his attack range constantly to avoid taking as much direct damage as possible.. as well as lifesteal to recover the damage I do take.The tanky stats are more or less only useful so that I can survive a few hits and not get one shot like he does to most other players, plus I've found it useful for pulling his Aggro too so I can lure him away from a group when he does one of his show up and screw everyone trying to kill the Lich or Viscount moments lol

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Plus they scale with the number of players fighting them which increases their level and stats and even gives them access to new skills and abilities etc.

Pretty sure that was never implemented.

Enemy Scaling? oh most definitely, that's always been in the game.It might not seem like much of a thing today with so much powercreep but it's definitely there.

Against other players you maybe hitting one player for say 1000 damage but you might hit another for only 400.. because they have a much higher armour stat total than the first one you hit.

Also Protection.

Aye Protection also a factor though that can be ripped off if you got the right skills.There's others too such as Dark Bond which is basically another form of protection that can only be accessed by Necromancers.Not sure if ti stacks with protection though and it's circumstantial but it exists.

As for is toughness useless?I have to say from many years of experience no.. it's definitely not useless but you may not find it incredibly useful just on it's own.Most people will combine toughness with Vitality to make really tanky builds as the two stats do work really good together, specially if they are backed up with sustained healing either by yourself or another player.You can make some very tanky builds in this game using defensive stats like toughness.

It depends on what you are doing. In high end PvE the damage is often so high that it doesn't help much. You can be stacking layers of damage reduction and stuff will still hit for massive damage so the best defense is to not get hit. Additionally there are attacks which are linked to fight specific mechanics that are going to be guaranteed kills if you don't do the mechanic. Toughness isn't useful against those either.

Evade, blindness, aegis and to a lesser degree weakness(due to lower reliability) are much cheaper and effective in most cases than investing in toughness. Biggest difference is that those are all active defenses while toughness is completely passive.

Yeah you're talking more about raids now right?I would certainly agree it has very minor uses there specially because of the one shot mechanics, outside of intentionally pulling enemy aggro it has no real use there at all.Strikes, Fractals and Dungeons though it has good use, you can play Tanks quite well in those modes and I have done for many years.. except for Strikes since they are new, but tanky builds can have a use there if they're designed more for support purposes, healing, buffing reviving etc

Active defences are going to be part of any good tank build as well, Tanks do still need to dodge on occasion as I mentioned in the first part of this response with my Lab Horror example, Other factors such as sustain, protection, weakness, blinds, blocks etc are all good and useful to tanks as well.While you can facetank a lot of things in this game you can't facetank everything so active defences are something we do definitely use quite often, at least I speak for myself anyway.

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@Hannelore.8153 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

! Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits! Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits! Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits! Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits!! Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits! Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits! Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits! Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits!! Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits! Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits! Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits! Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits!! Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits! Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits! Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits! Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits!! Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits! Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits! Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits! Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits!! Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits! Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits! Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits! Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits!! Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits! Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits! Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits! Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits!! Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits! Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits! Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits! Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:ElementalistThiefGuardianMesmerRanger | EngineerRevenantNecromancerWarrior

It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

This is a very helpful post. I wonder how the numbers would look like with Sentinel's instead of Soldier's. (Despite player's claims that tank builds aren't useful in this game, they are used by Commanders, so the information is still appreciated.)

Sentinel instead of Soldier will add 420 Vitality or 4200 health compared to Soldier.

! Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits! Sentinel Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 25455 health, 7.56 hits!! Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits! Sentinel Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 29732 health, 8.83 hits!! Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits! Sentinel Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 33022 health, 9.8 hits!! Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits! Sentinel Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 25455 health, 7.84 hits!! Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits! Sentinel Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 29732 health, 9.15 hits!! Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits! Sentinel Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 25455 health, 8.23 hits!! Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits! Sentinel Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 29732 health, 9.6 hits!! Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits! Sentinel Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 33022 health, 10.67 hits!

Interesting notes:Sentinel low health (Elementalist, Guardian, Thief) reach same health as Soldier medium health (Mesmer, Ranger, Engineer, Revenant) (25455 vs 25532)Sentinel medium health has 1000 more health than Soldier high health (29732 vs 28822)

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@Atomos.7593 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

No. Firebrands are a good example of a class that has a lot of AoE condi damage skills such as in
build.People dont run that in WvW except maybe for Youtube laughtracks, its not something they commonly run.

There are very few non-bunker viable condi builds in WvW because none of them can really compete with the insane damage of pure power builds stacked by zerging. Dire/trailblazer has been the only truly viable armor set for many years and it only works 1v1 and very small scale. Anything above 5 people is either power builds or minstrel supports, because the enemy run power builds and minstrel supports as well. Hell I've seen a literal 50/50 ratio on supports in 10 man groups, giving everyone a pocket firebrand or pocket scrapper. Unless you are really good at pulling out people (not that easy with perma-stab and all boons up) or they are really bad at it, condi barely even scratch those groups because it's cleansed as soon as it's applied.

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@Atomos.7593 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

No. Firebrands are a good example of a class that has a lot of AoE condi damage skills such as in
build.

You mean this: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Guardian_-_Burn_GuardWhich is relying heavily on dropping Wall of Reflection in chokes to apply its damage, and can be most easily countered by pushing in melee (your own Firebrands drop their Resistance fields and the spinny sword, which is their hardest direct condi application, does nothing during the first critical parts of the engagement).

A PvE-style Condibrand like the one you posted is dead meat in WvW: you're a fragile porcelain doll with no mobility that needs to be in melee range to apply your big burn stacks.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

! Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits! Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits! Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits! Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits!! Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits! Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits! Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits! Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits!! Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits! Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits! Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits! Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits!! Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits! Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits! Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits! Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits!! Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits! Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits! Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits! Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits!! Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits! Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits! Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits! Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits!! Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits! Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits! Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits! Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits!! Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits! Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits! Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits! Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:ElementalistThiefGuardianMesmerRanger | EngineerRevenantNecromancerWarrior

It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

The problem with passive sustain comparisons is that they lack any practical context with which one could determine which stat is actually better for a build in practice. This is why:

(Max Health/(DPS - X) = Time to Live

X = the combined value of DPS mitigated via both active and passive defense including effects like healing and barrier.

If X is = or > incoming DPS, then you can sustain indefinitely.

It is impossible to quantify the impact of active defense or the variable rate of incoming damage in a way that could be applied to all scenarios. What is the value of dodging an attack without knowing how much damage the specific attack dealt, your current health total, and any number of other variables that apply to a real scenario?

However, to continue along the lines of the simplistic comparison, consider the impact of healing. What happens if we assume that the number of "hits" the elementalist in the passive comparison can sustain is equal to the number of seconds they have to live?

Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hitsVitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits

If, for example, I can heal for 3.4k/s then the toughness elementalist can sustain an infinite number of hits as each hit is mitigated by a slightly greater amount of healing. However, the vitality elementalist is still taking about 1.7k DPS that is not being mitigated by healing and will now survive for about 12.5 seconds.

In our simplified example, healing-per-second = X. In a real scenario, the amount of healing required is less all damage mitigated via other means, active and passive. Without accounting for X, it is impossible to make any meaningful comparison between toughness and vitality.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

! Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits! Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits! Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits! Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits!! Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits! Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits! Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits! Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits!! Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits! Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits! Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits! Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits!! Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits! Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits! Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits! Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits!! Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits! Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits! Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits! Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits!! Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits! Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits! Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits! Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits!! Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits! Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits! Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits! Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits!! Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits! Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits! Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits! Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:ElementalistThiefGuardianMesmerRanger | EngineerRevenantNecromancerWarrior

It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

The problem with passive sustain comparisons is that they lack any practical context with which one could determine which stat is actually better for a build in practice. This is why:

(Max Health/(DPS - X) = Time to Live

X = the combined value of DPS mitigated via both active and passive defense including effects like healing and barrier.

If X is = or > incoming DPS, then you can sustain indefinitely.

It is impossible to quantify the impact of active defense or the variable rate of incoming damage in a way that could be applied to all scenarios. What is the value of dodging an attack without knowing how much damage the specific attack dealt, your current health total, and any number of other variables that apply to a real scenario?

However, to continue along the lines of the simplistic comparison, consider the impact of healing. What happens if we assume that the number of "hits" the elementalist in the passive comparison can sustain is equal to the number of seconds they have to live?

Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hitsVitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits

If, for example, I can heal for 3.4k/s then the toughness elementalist can sustain an infinite number of hits as each hit is mitigated by a slightly greater amount of healing. However, the vitality elementalist is still taking about 1.7k DPS that is not being mitigated by healing and will now survive for about 12.5 seconds.

In our simplified example, healing-per-second = X. In a real scenario, the amount of healing required is less all damage mitigated via other means, active and passive. Without accounting for X, it is impossible to make any meaningful comparison between toughness and vitality.

You are right, Toughness amplifies Healing while Vitality makes you need more Healing instead. I made a comparison between Vitality and Toughness as passive stats because it's not really possible to include all factors in, like active defenses and healing. In the same example you gave above, Toughness wouldn't help the Elementalist if they were hit by condition damage. I took a fresh level 80 Elementalist with green damage gear (and some blue) to Cursed Shore, slotted Signet of Restoration and I was invulnerable, I could out heal even level 80 Risen just using the passive healing. It's why an Elementalist with Cleric gear could solo the Spider Queen in Ascalonian Catacombs while afk. But I think it was too much to include in my calculations

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

! Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits! Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits! Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits! Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits!! Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits! Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits! Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits! Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits!! Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits! Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits! Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits! Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits!! Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits! Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits! Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits! Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits!! Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits! Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits! Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits! Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits!! Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits! Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits! Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits! Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits!! Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits! Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits! Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits! Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits!! Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits! Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits! Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits! Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:ElementalistThiefGuardianMesmerRanger | EngineerRevenantNecromancerWarrior

It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

The problem with passive sustain comparisons is that they lack any practical context with which one could determine which stat is actually better for a build in practice. This is why:

(Max Health/(DPS - X) = Time to Live

X = the combined value of DPS mitigated via both active and passive defense including effects like healing and barrier.

If X is = or > incoming DPS, then you can sustain indefinitely.

It is impossible to quantify the impact of active defense or the variable rate of incoming damage in a way that could be applied to all scenarios. What is the value of dodging an attack without knowing how much damage the specific attack dealt, your current health total, and any number of other variables that apply to a real scenario?

However, to continue along the lines of the simplistic comparison, consider the impact of healing. What happens if we assume that the number of "hits" the elementalist in the passive comparison can sustain is equal to the number of seconds they have to live?

Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hitsVitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits

If, for example, I can heal for 3.4k/s then the toughness elementalist can sustain an infinite number of hits as each hit is mitigated by a slightly greater amount of healing. However, the vitality elementalist is still taking about 1.7k DPS that is not being mitigated by healing and will now survive for about 12.5 seconds.

In our simplified example, healing-per-second = X. In a real scenario, the amount of healing required is less all damage mitigated via other means, active and passive. Without accounting for X, it is impossible to make any meaningful comparison between toughness and vitality.

You are right, Toughness amplifies Healing while Vitality makes you need more Healing instead. I made a comparison between Vitality and Toughness as passive stats because it's not really possible to include all factors in, like active defenses and healing. In the same example you gave above, Toughness wouldn't help the Elementalist if they were hit by condition damage. I took a fresh level 80 Elementalist with green damage gear (and some blue) to Cursed Shore, slotted Signet of Restoration and I was invulnerable, I could out heal even level 80 Risen just using the passive healing. It's why an Elementalist with Cleric gear could solo the Spider Queen in Ascalonian Catacombs while afk. But I think it was too much to include in my calculations

Bigger picture the action happens in smaller intervals based upon the relationship between many variables, not least of which available defensive cooldowns and their cadence compared to the more impactful enemy attacks of a given encounter. In this context, you only need to survive so many seconds in order to "stretch" to the next cooldown and avoid that which must be avoided in order to sustain.

In our comparison, the value of vitality is artificially inflated in relation to toughness by the fact that we are essentially assuming both builds fail to sustain and die within a number of hits. However, how many hits one may sustain before succumbing is usually not relevant within the time intervals we're considering (e.g. The vitality build sustaining for 12.5 seconds before succumbing doesn't really matter if I only need to survive 6 seconds for a defense cooldown that will allow me to survive into the next interval).

Consider the video I linked. My health stays above 66% the entire fight due to the combined impact of active defense and passive healing and damage mitigation. While a certain health cushion is required to avoid forcing me into playing defensively, strictly speaking I only really needed about a third of my total health. In other words, I could have succeeded with no additional vitality at all.

On the other hand, toughness reduced every bit of power damage taken. Clearly, I would have succeeded with less toughness than I had, but there is likely a toughness value at which I would have been forced to play more defensively in order to sustain. Up until that point, toughness is useful.

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My rule of thumb is: "I'm getting insta-downed a bit too often" = add a moderate amount of Vitality, "I want to absorb a ton of punishment, just straight-up solo brawl with champions and stuff" = add a lot of Toughness, a moderate amount of Vitality, and make sure you have Protection uptime and condi cleanse, possibly also Healing Power depending on the build.

Part of that is just that it's really easy to get "a moderate amount of Vitality" on otherwise offensively-oriented gear(Marauder's).

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

No. Firebrands are a good example of a class that has a lot of AoE condi damage skills such as in
build.People dont run that in WvW except maybe for Youtube laughtracks, its not something they commonly run.

There are very few non-bunker viable condi builds in WvW because none of them can really compete with the insane damage of pure power builds stacked by zerging. Dire/trailblazer has been the only truly viable armor set for many years and it only works 1v1 and very small scale. Anything above 5 people is either power builds or minstrel supports, because the enemy run power builds and minstrel supports as well. Hell I've seen a literal 50/50 ratio on supports in 10 man groups, giving everyone a pocket firebrand or pocket scrapper. Unless you are
really
good at pulling out people (not that easy with perma-stab and all boons up) or they are
really
bad at it, condi barely even scratch those groups because it's cleansed as soon as it's applied.

It may be commonly run or not commonly run. What I said here is that I find it extremely boring when the bunker condi builds are used to create a stalemate situation (as described in detail in my previous post in this thread) where both sides are unwilling to initiate the fight. I find this happens a lot between large blob fights involving guilds.

Also as I stated in my previous post I have no problem at all with countering such builds. As a roamer, I have to often initiate such fights by myself because others seem to be unable or unwilling to do it themselves. Which is why I would find it interesting for WvW if such changes like the quote I made in my initial post were done.

@ASP.8093 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

No. Firebrands are a good example of a class that has a lot of AoE condi damage skills such as in
build.

You mean this:
Which is relying heavily on dropping Wall of Reflection in chokes to apply its damage, and can be most easily countered by pushing in melee (your own Firebrands drop their Resistance fields and the spinny sword, which is their hardest direct condi application, does nothing during the first critical parts of the engagement).

A PvE-style Condibrand like the one you posted is dead meat in WvW: you're a fragile porcelain doll with no mobility that needs to be in melee range to apply your big burn stacks.

Like I said in my previous post, I know it can be countered and actively do it myself. That's not what I was talking about in this thread, as I have clarified in my previous post here in case it wasn't clear enough.

To make it even clearer that I have no difficulty countering such builds I'll describe a fight I had 1v1 with a firebrand guard yesterday on my scourge necro: While I was solo roaming and trying to capture a camp, the firebrand sneaked up behind and attacked me. It barely scratched me but since the player seemed to be keen on defending the camp I started fighting them. I pulled them away from the npcs to an open field fight where we had some fun.

I even intentionally reduced my health to below 20% a couple of times with necro self-bleed and sacrifice skills in order to make the fight more interesting. As soon as I realized that the player was a firebrand using AoE condi skills (probably thinking that I wouldn't see these effects and would die in them), I started to actively dodge out of these areas. This worked so well that eventually I went back up to max health again. Unfortunately someone else came then and ended the 1v1 fight we were having by killing the player.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

! Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits! Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits! Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits! Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits!! Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits! Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits! Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits! Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits!! Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits! Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits! Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits! Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits!! Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits! Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits! Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits! Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits!! Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits! Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits! Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits! Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits!! Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits! Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits! Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits! Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits!! Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits! Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits! Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits! Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits!! Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits! Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits! Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits! Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:ElementalistThiefGuardianMesmerRanger | EngineerRevenantNecromancerWarrior

It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

The problem with passive sustain comparisons is that they lack any practical context with which one could determine which stat is actually better for a build in practice. This is why:

(Max Health/(DPS - X) = Time to Live

X = the combined value of DPS mitigated via both active and passive defense including effects like healing and barrier.

If X is = or > incoming DPS, then you can sustain indefinitely.

It is impossible to quantify the impact of active defense or the variable rate of incoming damage in a way that could be applied to all scenarios. What is the value of dodging an attack without knowing how much damage the specific attack dealt, your current health total, and any number of other variables that apply to a real scenario?

However, to continue along the lines of the simplistic comparison, consider the impact of healing. What happens if we assume that the number of "hits" the elementalist in the passive comparison can sustain is equal to the number of seconds they have to live?

Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hitsVitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits

If, for example, I can heal for 3.4k/s then the toughness elementalist can sustain an infinite number of hits as each hit is mitigated by a slightly greater amount of healing. However, the vitality elementalist is still taking about 1.7k DPS that is not being mitigated by healing and will now survive for about 12.5 seconds.

In our simplified example, healing-per-second = X. In a real scenario, the amount of healing required is less all damage mitigated via other means, active and passive. Without accounting for X, it is impossible to make any meaningful comparison between toughness and vitality.

For what it's worth, I mostly prioritize healing power, vitality and toughness on my elementalist for a more defensive build. This combined with frequently using run speed buffs and debuffs on enemies, I find that I can survive in situations where normally it would seem unrealistic to be able to do so. It often takes 4+ players in WvW to kill me solo on my elementalist when I use this type of build.

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Toughness has a huge value, but not alone. It acts as perma passive protection boon, except the % damage reduction value depends on amount of toughness you have vs amount of armor you had prior to taking it. If you like numbers better here is a simple formula for you:

how much damage reduction my new toughness investment gives me??

  1. what amount of my current armor is the new toughness gain?
  2. add it to armor.
  3. reverse the number (divide 1 by the total new armor value)

example:

I have 2k armor prior to equipping gear that will give me 1k tougness total. How much damage reduction will I get?1k tougness is half of your armor prior to adding it. So after adding it your armor will be 1.5 of starter value.Therefore the damage you take will be reverse of that - 1/1.5 = 2/3 of previous value.So that 1k tougness made you take 33% less damage prior to adding it.

The value of tougness shines when combined with healing. Most healing skills don't heal based on amount of health you got. You can have 15k health, or go hog wild with vitality stat and get 30k....your heal skill will still heal for roughly 5-6k health...

Toughness reduces damage taken - the wounds are smaller and your mediocre healing capacity can handle that much better than large wounds taken with little to no toughness...

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