(Conspiracy theory) Is Palawa Joko really "dead"?

[Adiabatik.6714]

I mean:

• We know that the real one was trapped in the mysts with no way out.
• The whole area leading to him was stacked with mesmer traps upon mesmer traps, while Palawa speciality is necromancy
• As far as we know, the whole "destruction of dragons will lead to destruction of Tyria" is a very sensitive information probably only disclosed to a very tight group of people. Palawa Joko is not on the list.
  • The inquest involvement with Joko comes out of the blue, in fact there is no indication that Palawa Joko empire had any access to Asuran technology at all. Even the waypoints are a scarce commodity in Elhona.
  • For "reasons", the body of Joko was never retrieved and properly autopsied.All those elements point out toward a sinister individual being behind that case. Somebody very close to the commander might I add.

The public want to know.

I mean under Caudecus and the time of free press, the government would never have gotten away for hiding such important data to the public.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Aurene ate him so I’d say that he is.

[Stephen.6312]

@"Adiabatik.6714" said:I mean:

• We know that the real one was trapped in the mysts with no way out.
• The whole area leading to him was stacked with mesmer traps upon mesmer traps, while Palawa speciality is necromancy
• As far as we know, the whole "destruction of dragons will lead to destruction of Tyria" is a very sensitive information probably only disclosed to a very tight group of people. Palawa Joko is not on the list.
  • The inquest involvement with Joko comes out of the blue, in fact there is no indication that Palawa Joko empire had any access to Asuran technology at all. Even the waypoints are a scarce commodity in Elhona.
  • For "reasons", the body of Joko was never retrieved and properly autopsied.All those elements point out toward a sinister individual being behind that case. Somebody very close to the commander might I add.

Who do you think the sinister individual is?

[Teratus.2859]

With Aurine possessing his magic it's pretty much assured he's gone.A shame really, Joko had good potential to be a bigger antagonist in the game.He's still by far the best secondary antagonist we've had in the game though.

[Kichwas.7152]

I hope so.

He wasn't really built up well as a villain.

I gather there was Guild Wars 1 era content that never came out. If it had, we'd know him like Vadar. But instead he's Snoke.

Just like Snoke, he was actually one of the most damaging deadly villains the world of Tyria ever knew - but to the audience he was just 'guy in scary mask #7...

[Adiabatik.6714]

My theory is that the thing we fought wasn't really Joko but a puppet/corpse in the shape of Joko.The sinister individual is unfortunately unknown.ThEY wouldn't tell us.But we can assume an individual with a strong mesmer magic at its disposal. Maybe two persons, one with mesmer magic and the other with necromancy magic.That would make it...... A CoNsPirAcY...

[Randulf.7614]

After Aurene ate him, he got flushed into the mystic toilet. Now he is a Legendary Gift of Poo

[Fueki.4753]

Aurene ate his body, so noone can check that.Aurene possesses the magic that previously was unique to Joko, so it definitely was the real one.Also, Joko was Necromancer and a Mesmer. Unlike modern Tyrians, he knew how to use two professions at once.

Joko was sacrificed for the lesser good of becoming Aurene's plot armour.There is no more and no less to it.Arenanet wasn't even remotely subtle about that.

[Atomos.7593]

Find some magical way to bring back Joko Anet! :p

[Stephen.6312]

@"Adiabatik.6714" said:I mean:

• We know that the real one was trapped in the mysts with no way out.
• The whole area leading to him was stacked with mesmer traps upon mesmer traps, while Palawa speciality is necromancy
• As far as we know, the whole "destruction of dragons will lead to destruction of Tyria" is a very sensitive information probably only disclosed to a very tight group of people. Palawa Joko is not on the list.
  • The inquest involvement with Joko comes out of the blue, in fact there is no indication that Palawa Joko empire had any access to Asuran technology at all. Even the waypoints are a scarce commodity in Elhona.
  • For "reasons", the body of Joko was never retrieved and properly autopsied.All those elements point out toward a sinister individual being behind that case. Somebody very close to the commander might I add.

The public want to know.

I mean under Caudecus and the time of free press, the government would never have gotten away for hiding such important data to the public.

Maybe Canach's casual remark about Aurene being a person means a bit more than we realize. I'm not saying that Canach consciously knows more than he's letting on, but he may have a weakened version of the gene for True Sight, which allows him to penetrate "illusions" with varying degrees of success. His musings may be intuitive reflections on the truth, given his Margonite heritage.

Maybe Aurene is one of the human gods in disguise? Maybe this god slipped into one of Glint's remaining eggs, using it's knowledge of the cycle of reincarnation in Northern Tyria. That might explain why Aurene would take down Joko and Balthazar. Rather than destroying them, this god might be trying to save them from destruction in a manner similar to, but not exactly the same, as the gods' manipulation of Balthazar's gene in Northern Ascalon.

[Only Even.6193]

If Joko is still not really dead at this point, it's the GW2's best meme ever.

[Tyson.5160]

@Stephen.6312 said:

@"Adiabatik.6714" said:I mean:

• We know that the real one was trapped in the mysts with no way out.
• The whole area leading to him was stacked with mesmer traps upon mesmer traps, while Palawa speciality is necromancy
• As far as we know, the whole "destruction of dragons will lead to destruction of Tyria" is a very sensitive information probably only disclosed to a very tight group of people. Palawa Joko is not on the list.
  • The inquest involvement with Joko comes out of the blue, in fact there is no indication that Palawa Joko empire had any access to Asuran technology at all. Even the waypoints are a scarce commodity in Elhona.
  • For "reasons", the body of Joko was never retrieved and properly autopsied.All those elements point out toward a sinister individual being behind that case. Somebody very close to the commander might I add.

The public want to know.

I mean under Caudecus and the time of free press, the government would never have gotten away for hiding such important data to the public.

Maybe Canach's casual remark about Aurene being a person means a bit more than we realize. I'm not saying that Canach

consciously

knows more than he's letting on, but he may have a weakened version of the gene for True Sight, which allows him to penetrate "illusions" with varying degrees of success. His musings may be

intuitive

reflections on the truth, given his Margonite heritage.

Maybe Aurene is one of the human gods in disguise? Maybe this god slipped into one of Glint's remaining eggs, using it's knowledge of the cycle of reincarnation in Northern Tyria. That might explain why Aurene would take down Joko and Balthazar. Rather than destroying them, this god might be trying to save them from destruction in a manner similar to, but not exactly the same, as the gods' manipulation of Balthazar's gene in Northern Ascalon.

A lot of this doesn’t make sense... Canach having Margonite heritage, Aurene being a reincarnated god... Balthazar’s genes... excuse me, what?

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@"Adiabatik.6714" said:I mean:

• We know that the real one was trapped in the mysts with no way out.
• The whole area leading to him was stacked with mesmer traps upon mesmer traps, while Palawa speciality is necromancy
• As far as we know, the whole "destruction of dragons will lead to destruction of Tyria" is a very sensitive information probably only disclosed to a very tight group of people. Palawa Joko is not on the list.
  • The inquest involvement with Joko comes out of the blue, in fact there is no indication that Palawa Joko empire had any access to Asuran technology at all. Even the waypoints are a scarce commodity in Elhona.
  • For "reasons", the body of Joko was never retrieved and properly autopsied.All those elements point out toward a sinister individual being behind that case. Somebody very close to the commander might I add.

The public want to know.

I mean under Caudecus and the time of free press, the government would never have gotten away for hiding such important data to the public.

1. Balthazar's magic that bound Joko to the Domain of the Lost was dispelled when he died. This is also why the Commander was able to leave the Domain of the Lost due to Grength's absence (as Balthazar states).
2. The illusions were prepared by a mesmer, Joko could make use of undead Mesmers just like Zhaitan could.
3. Joko had access to massive amounts of information from ancient Elona including recorded information from the Human Gods who knew about the dragons and The All. This is how Joko the Deceiver gained so much power: rewriting history with lies.
4. Joko just happened upon the Inquest by accident when rallying his forces in Istan, since Fahranur was also a research outpost of Zinn. According to the reactor logs, It was built seven years before LS4 so long before Joko returned to Istan.
5. It would've been impossible to autopsy him anyway since he's immortal. Purely magical beings can't be destroyed by any means, only absorbed by other magical beings; this is true of the dragons, the Human Gods, and of Joko. (Though how Joko managed this isn't established in canon, its assumed he was once granted a wish by a powerful djinn.)

[mercury ranique.2170]

@Stephen.6312 said:

@"Adiabatik.6714" said:I mean:

• We know that the real one was trapped in the mysts with no way out.
• The whole area leading to him was stacked with mesmer traps upon mesmer traps, while Palawa speciality is necromancy
• As far as we know, the whole "destruction of dragons will lead to destruction of Tyria" is a very sensitive information probably only disclosed to a very tight group of people. Palawa Joko is not on the list.
  • The inquest involvement with Joko comes out of the blue, in fact there is no indication that Palawa Joko empire had any access to Asuran technology at all. Even the waypoints are a scarce commodity in Elhona.
  • For "reasons", the body of Joko was never retrieved and properly autopsied.All those elements point out toward a sinister individual being behind that case. Somebody very close to the commander might I add.

The public want to know.

I mean under Caudecus and the time of free press, the government would never have gotten away for hiding such important data to the public.

Maybe Canach's casual remark about Aurene being a person means a bit more than we realize. I'm not saying that Canach

consciously

knows more than he's letting on, but he may have a weakened version of the gene for True Sight, which allows him to penetrate "illusions" with varying degrees of success. His musings may be

intuitive

reflections on the truth, given his Margonite heritage.

Maybe Aurene is one of the human gods in disguise? Maybe this god slipped into one of Glint's remaining eggs, using it's knowledge of the cycle of reincarnation in Northern Tyria. That might explain why Aurene would take down Joko and Balthazar. Rather than destroying them, this god might be trying to save them from destruction in a manner similar to, but not exactly the same, as the gods' manipulation of Balthazar's gene in Northern Ascalon.

Many elements do not fit into the story.

Keep in mind that the story seems to be about balancing. 6 Gods, 6 ED's, 6 glowing globes around Tyria in the eternal alchemy. How these things are connected is still unknown, but it surely is connected somehow. Kormir was very clear that the other 4 gods have left Tyria. And no she could not have missed one of them as she is the godess of knowledge. She is also the Godess of truth so it is also unlikely she lied to us.

I do not know how you can give Canach a margonite heritage? can you point out where in lore is any proof for this? afaik, he is a sylvari of the pale tree. A single mother and no father. So there can not be such a thing as heritage

[Fueki.4753]

@mercury ranique.2170 said:Keep in mind that the story seems to be about balancing. 6 Gods, 6 ED's, 6 glowing globes around Tyria in the eternal alchemy. How these things are connected is still unknown, but it surely is connected somehow. Kormir was very clear that the other 4 gods have left Tyria. And no she could not have missed one of them as she is the godess of knowledge. She is also the Godess of truth so it is also unlikely she lied to us.

Also, don't forget that the Human Gods (and humans themselves) technically do not belong in Tyria.They came from another world.It's save to assume that the globes having nothing to do with the Human Gods.

[Opopanax.1803]

Maybe he is reviving out of aurene's poo somewhere!

Give it a couple seasons of Living World.

[mercury ranique.2170]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:Keep in mind that the story seems to be about balancing. 6 Gods, 6 ED's, 6 glowing globes around Tyria in the eternal alchemy. How these things are connected is still unknown, but it surely is connected somehow. Kormir was very clear that the other 4 gods have left Tyria. And no she could not have missed one of them as she is the godess of knowledge. She is also the Godess of truth so it is also unlikely she lied to us.

Also, don't forget that the Human Gods (and humans themselves) technically do not belong in Tyria.They came from another world.It's save to assume that the globes having nothing to do with the Human Gods.

That is part of some debate and sources contradict eachother. Some claim humans arrived through a portal to the mists to Orr. But other sources pinpoint Cantha as the original place humans come from. To be fair, both can be right. No source claim how they got into the mists in the first place. Same goes with the 6 gods. They also arrived from the mists, but nothing us said about their origins before that and how they got their powered. We just know their power can be transferred to others (half gods and even humans).Looking at Razah (a creature from the mists), it is unlikely that humans could originate in the mists themselves.

As for the position of the mists in the eternal alchemy (aka the theory of all), this is unknown, but it is likely it is part if it.

[Klypto.1703]

Just play episode 1 of living world season 4 as a revenant to get a basic understanding of how one can both be in the living world and the mists at the same time.

[Teratus.2859]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:

5. It would've been impossible to autopsy him anyway since he's immortal. Purely magical beings can't be destroyed by any means, only absorbed by other magical beings; this is true of the dragons, the Human Gods, and of Joko. (Though how Joko managed this isn't established in canon, its assumed he was once granted a wish by a powerful djinn.)

I'm still hoping Anet will flesh this out at some point and explain Joko's origins as a Lich.Maybe a future Visions of the Past Episode could explain it.

Lich's are too mysterious in this franchise and appear to have different levels of power which are not explained more or less at all.Khilbron back in Gw1 became one somehow during the Cataclysm he caused using an ancient magic scroll he stole from the Gods..He became an extremely powerful Lich much like Joko is/was and is so far the only other Lich in the franchise that has been as much of a threat.

Most other Lich's have been minor by comparison like Gw1's Dragon Lich's which died like any other undead when killed and only appear to have the title of Lich because they command a group of minions.The Lich Zoldark the Unholy is much the same way as well.. has lots of minions around him but dies when killed just like any other undead would.

The odd one is Fendi Nin who is far more Lich like than the above Dragon Zombies and Zoldark but for some reason isn't listed as a Lich on the Guildwars Wiki.To kill him you have to kill his physical zombie body and then destroy his unbound soul before he can reanimate himself.

As for Joko and Khilbron.. these guys just keep getting back up when they're defeated.No matter how many times they are slain in combat they will keep getting up over and over again seemingly immortal and unkillable which is far more in line with traditional fantasy Lich'sBoth of these Lich's were killed under very special circumstances.Joko was consumed entirely by Aurine and absorbed.Khilbron was slain repeatedly on the Bloodstone in the fire isles which eventually weakened him enough for his soul to be absorbed by the Mursaat soul batteries killing him.He later shows up in the Realm of Torment alongside Shiro with no explanation as to how he got there (presumably Abaddon did it) and is defeated like any normal undead enemy seemingly having lost his Lich power to self revive indefinitely.

What makes these 2 Lich's so special though is a complete mystery.. the Devs have never gone far enough into Lich lore to explain this and I highly doubt they ever will tbh.But I really hope they do some day, specially since Marjory has shown interest in the kind of Necromancy that could bring one back from the dead as seen in LW3.

[Fueki.4753]

@Teratus.2859 said:Khilbron was slain repeatedly on the Bloodstone in the fire isles which eventually weakened him enough for his soul to be absorbed by the Mursaat soul batteries killing him.He later shows up in the Realm of Torment alongside Shiro with no explanation as to how he got there (presumably Abaddon did it) and is defeated like any normal undead enemy seemingly having lost his Lich power to self revive indefinitely.

Khilbron was absorbed at the Door of Komalie, which is a gateway to the Realm of Torment.Most of him got absorbed into the soul batteries.But a fraction of him, including his consciousness, was pulled through the gate (possibly by Abaddon) before it closed.At least that's how I assume part of him got into the realm of torment (instead of being fully absorbed into the souls batteries) and could be fought.

[Teratus.2859]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Khilbron was slain repeatedly on the Bloodstone in the fire isles which eventually weakened him enough for his soul to be absorbed by the Mursaat soul batteries killing him.He later shows up in the Realm of Torment alongside Shiro with no explanation as to how he got there (presumably Abaddon did it) and is defeated like any normal undead enemy seemingly having lost his Lich power to self revive indefinitely.

Khilbron was absorbed at the Door of Komalie, which is a gateway to the Realm of Torment.Most of him got absorbed into the soul batteries.But a fraction of him, including his consciousness, was pulled through the gate (possibly by Abaddon) before it closed.At least that's how I assume part of him got into the realm of torment (instead of being fully absorbed into the souls batteries) and could be fought.

Yeah that does make a lot of sense.Might have even known he was beaten and sent himself through to avoid being absorbed completely by the batteries.

It's an interesting situation that this is how Guildwars has dealt with Lich's as an enemy type, It makes me really curious as to how exactly they work in this universe.There's been a lot of debate on that with no clear answer since Anet has kept this particular information either quiet or non existent lolEither way I want them to explore this one day.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Adiabatik.6714" said:I mean:

• We know that the real one was trapped in the mysts with no way out.He had a way out; his prison was bound by Balthazar's will. Balthazar's death is what freed Joko.

• As far as we know, the whole "destruction of dragons will lead to destruction of Tyria" is a very sensitive information probably only disclosed to a very tight group of people. Palawa Joko is not on the list.Joko was with Balthazar when they raided Kesho and turned Exalted into the first Forged. They likely spilled the beans on Glint's Legacy while telling Balthazar about the Elder Dragons' weaknesses allowing him to know how to go about killing Kralkatorrik (and possibly Primordus as well, if the raid on Kesho happened before Season 3's events). If Balthazar's alliance happened in the short timeframe after Season 3 Episode 5, then Balthazar would already have known about the destruction of Tyria, and might have let it slip to Joko as part of their deal before backstabbing.

• The inquest involvement with Joko comes out of the blue, in fact there is no indication that Palawa Joko empire had any access to Asuran technology at all. Even the waypoints are a scarce commodity in Elhona.The Inquest aren't involved with Joko. They were monitoring Joko, and thought Joko didn't know, but Joko did know. He likely left them be for a while so they could research the Scarab Plague with the intent to take it after they recovered it. And when he got back from Balthazar's prison, broken by Balthazar's death, he decided to use the Inquest base for his revenge against the Commander.

So the Inquest "got involved" with Joko only after he killed and Awakened them.> @mercury ranique.2170 said:

@Stephen.6312 said:

@"Adiabatik.6714" said:I mean:

• We know that the real one was trapped in the mysts with no way out.
• The whole area leading to him was stacked with mesmer traps upon mesmer traps, while Palawa speciality is necromancy
• As far as we know, the whole "destruction of dragons will lead to destruction of Tyria" is a very sensitive information probably only disclosed to a very tight group of people. Palawa Joko is not on the list.
  • The inquest involvement with Joko comes out of the blue, in fact there is no indication that Palawa Joko empire had any access to Asuran technology at all. Even the waypoints are a scarce commodity in Elhona.
  • For "reasons", the body of Joko was never retrieved and properly autopsied.All those elements point out toward a sinister individual being behind that case. Somebody very close to the commander might I add.

The public want to know.

I mean under Caudecus and the time of free press, the government would never have gotten away for hiding such important data to the public.

Maybe Canach's casual remark about Aurene being a person means a bit more than we realize. I'm not saying that Canach

consciously

knows more than he's letting on, but he may have a weakened version of the gene for True Sight, which allows him to penetrate "illusions" with varying degrees of success. His musings may be

intuitive

reflections on the truth, given his Margonite heritage.

Maybe Aurene is one of the human gods in disguise? Maybe this god slipped into one of Glint's remaining eggs, using it's knowledge of the cycle of reincarnation in Northern Tyria. That might explain why Aurene would take down Joko and Balthazar. Rather than destroying them, this god might be trying to save them from destruction in a manner similar to, but not exactly the same, as the gods' manipulation of Balthazar's gene in Northern Ascalon.

Many elements do not fit into the story.

Keep in mind that the story seems to be about balancing. 6 Gods, 6 ED's, 6 glowing globes around Tyria in the eternal alchemy. How these things are connected is still unknown, but it surely is connected somehow. Kormir was very clear that the other 4 gods have left Tyria. And no she could not have missed one of them as she is the godess of knowledge. She is also the Godess of truth so it is also unlikely she lied to us.

I do not know how you can give Canach a margonite heritage? can you point out where in lore is any proof for this? afaik, he is a sylvari of the pale tree. A single mother and no father. So there can not be such a thing as heritage

The Six Gods are not related to the Elder Dragons or Tyria's All. This has been confirmed multiple times over, they came to the world as gods from another planet.

It is possible they fulfilled similar roles as the Elder Dragons in this other world, thus human homeworld of which all we know is that it had little to no magic and is implied to have faced a cataclysm forcing the Six and humans (and possibly others like Forgotten) to flee from it as refugees. But that's theory.

And the Canach Margonite heritage is completely false. The sylvari have no relation to the humans-turned-demons.

[mercury ranique.2170]

Many elements do not fit into the story.

Keep in mind that the story seems to be about balancing. 6 Gods, 6 ED's, 6 glowing globes around Tyria in the eternal alchemy. How these things are connected is still unknown, but it surely is connected somehow. Kormir was very clear that the other 4 gods have left Tyria. And no she could not have missed one of them as she is the godess of knowledge. She is also the Godess of truth so it is also unlikely she lied to us.

I do not know how you can give Canach a margonite heritage? can you point out where in lore is any proof for this? afaik, he is a sylvari of the pale tree. A single mother and no father. So there can not be such a thing as heritage

The Six Gods are not related to the Elder Dragons or Tyria's All. This has been confirmed multiple times over, they came to the world as gods from another planet.

It is possible they fulfilled similar roles as the Elder Dragons in this other world, thus human homeworld of which all we know is that it had little to no magic and is implied to have faced a cataclysm forcing the Six and humans (and possibly others like Forgotten) to flee from it as refugees. But that's theory.

And the Canach Margonite heritage is completely false. The sylvari have no relation to the humans-turned-demons.

Could you state what sources you have for this. The wiki mentions many sources about them arriving from the mists into Orr. That is something undisputed.

One wiki page I found:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods#Pre-arrivalStates that little is known about the gods before their arrival to Tyria. So their origin and the origin of their power is very much unknown. The sources confirm this. I have seen stating on other pages (that I can't find right now) they came from another planet, but when looking at the sources there it only mentioned the arrival in Arah, but not where they came from and how to get their power.

I am not saying it is tied to dragon magic or that one dragon equals one god. But too much about magic, it origin, how it works and how it connects all is esoteric at best and strong sources are missing (afai can find)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"mercury ranique.2170" said:Could you state what sources you have for this. The wiki mentions many sources about them arriving from the mists into Orr. That is something undisputed.

Which part(s) specifically would you like sources for?

If about the primary part, that the Six Gods are unrelated to the Elder Dragons, aside from ANet poking fun at the constant theories that fall apart halfway through we have direct dev statement which outright states no relation between ED and SG:

Elder Dragons are native to Tyria, and the human gods are from elsewhere, so as far as them being related: no.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/494601/#Comment_494601

Otherwise, please specify which part.

[mercury ranique.2170]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"mercury ranique.2170" said:Could you state what sources you have for this. The wiki mentions many sources about them arriving from the mists into Orr. That is something undisputed.

Which part(s) specifically would you like sources for?

If about the primary part, that the Six Gods are unrelated to the Elder Dragons, aside from ANet

poking fun at the constant theories that fall apart halfway through

we have direct dev statement which outright states no relation between ED and SG:

Elder Dragons are native to Tyria, and the human gods are from elsewhere, so as far as them being related: no.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/494601/#Comment_494601

Otherwise, please specify which part.

I read the dev comment different. I am not talking bout the elder dragons being related (or as the question was in that thread if they are part of the same being or tied together), I agree that this would not make sense.

I am talking about the Gods coming from another place beyond the mists. Afaik, we know nothing from the time before the arrival of the gods, where they came from and where their power came from. We know they are not omnipotent. Their power has limits and they can be destroyed. They are nearly immortal (interesting side note is that the gods themselfes seems to be unable to destroy the other they can only lock other gods from their power and imprison them in the mists, while Tyrian heroes can destroy them and take of their power and even rise to their status, this has some simularities to the way dragon magic works). A lot how they function is unknown.

So no I am not stating they are related or part of the same. I am seeing some simularities between the Gods and the Dragons which can mean something, but also can mean nothing. Mostly I am stating that a lot is esoteric and before their arrival we known mostly nothing (afai can find).