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How the new Fractal CM KP(Killproof) system promotes toxicity.


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@Abysswalker.5319 said:

@Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:running CM+T4 lately with DWD only and I have been completing it fairly reasonable way. 1 or 2 wipe on 100 sometime but mostly smooth enough. But, I did run into problem yesterday while 1 person didn't have dod or DwD. We kept wiping on 100 then they started to tell me that i am not healing enough. I just left coz I knew not to argue and made another party with DWD and cleared it easily.again, want speed clear = staticwant to learn = make ur lfg or static.want to just just do CMs+T4 = DwD.It works.

Titles will never be a valid killproof because you can buy them. And cheaply. But what you are talking about is entry level CMs. My post is about 250+ groups that usually run without a healer.

and u can buy account that has kills. nothing is 100%.So, if you read my post, want speed clear = go static.o btw, i have over 250+ but i still can't do without healer. so how does that work?May be, if lfg CMs+T4. no heal run, you may get the people you are looking for.

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@Abysswalker.5319 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:Join one or don't. It's a solution if you somehow run into this issue all the time. How many runs have you done and how many times did this happen or do you just ss the 1st time it happened. Again fake kp don't matter if he is skilled because you won't notice. And yes again that's the issue for any new skilled player is he can't crack there barriers at all so he has to fake. The guy who fakes and isn't good is the issue. Weed them out via block/friend and lable them. And here you go adding stuff but if this guy beats the content and gets a drop he has more kp then his skill level. Do you hear yourself? What exactly do you want. A little counter on my character with 98 99 100 cm and how many times I beat it so I can maybe join your group.What's your issue. Some bad player snuck in and you noticed and kicked him. Sounds like you fixed itFirst of all, if you read my post you'd know I have multiple stacks of old KP which means I didnt just do this once and posted it. And what you fail to understand is that we are talking about 250+ groups, not noob friendly CMs.

When you want to run without a healer (which is almost always the case with 250+ groups) and someone is faking KP you can tell but that is precisely what creates toxicity! Maybe the guy just had a bad first encounter. I won't accuse him of faking KP just cz he made a mistake. So you keep going and try again, then people question it and then there is always a fight which leads to people leaving or someone getting kicked. You say kicking the person that fakes is a solution. That is NOT a solution! By kicking someone you need to find a replacement which is very difficult if it's not a full run. Then you lower your standards, or people get tired from arguing and LFG downtime and leave... It's a s**t show.

And you know when you have to kick someone there is always going to be toxicity especially from the person being kicked. So telling me kicking someone is the solution makes me question your ability to read since my problem is not that I can't clear CMs, is that I have to deal with toxicity to do it.

I read your post. See now you accuse me of not being able to read makes me think you are the toxic one. Where am I saying noob groups? It rally don't matter but should be less of an issue for you. You don't answer anything either. So what 45 days since fractal released. How many times you have this issue? It would be like you said damn quick to see someone unskilled faking it in a quick encounter. So run the hardest one first and bam exposed so now it remains a full run.

Again. What do you want? Everything there is right now you counter with they can buy title they can get a drop for 1680 kp. I said the little counter thing. Is that what you want? I enter fracs and theres 100 cm on my forehead with a number 16 or 56 of how many clears we got. Or a number zero for the guy whos faking. Then what you kick him. Anet sure the hell isn't going to do that when then most likely don't like the huge amount of exclusion already or else why change it?I never said that the bad player faking isn't toxic. I said there isn't some huge increase in it esp in 250 plus. Like why would I as a bad player risk that group? He would try and blend in a litttle lower.Heres the thing bro. The solution is kick without saying a fucking word. You know who is the issue. Kick/block / no toxicity. Actually it's block nickname them kick. I think your issue is you want anet to remove all bad players because you are uncomfortable kicking someone. There is no way to filter out these fakers perfectly so use what everyone else does now like lare says it is incredible simple for him. You start accusing you run the risk of toxicity and then he trys to reverse kick you etc etc

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@Abysswalker.5319 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:Join one or don't. It's a solution if you somehow run into this issue all the time. How many runs have you done and how many times did this happen or do you just ss the 1st time it happened. Again fake kp don't matter if he is skilled because you won't notice. And yes again that's the issue for any new skilled player is he can't crack there barriers at all so he has to fake. The guy who fakes and isn't good is the issue. Weed them out via block/friend and lable them. And here you go adding stuff but if this guy beats the content and gets a drop he has more kp then his skill level. Do you hear yourself? What exactly do you want. A little counter on my character with 98 99 100 cm and how many times I beat it so I can maybe join your group.What's your issue. Some bad player snuck in and you noticed and kicked him. Sounds like you fixed itFirst of all, if you read my post you'd know I have multiple stacks of old KP which means I didnt just do this once and posted it.Wait is this the I can't read part? Because I said did you ss the first time it happened. Meaning is it the first time this toxicity happened not is this your first run. Oh and I'm the one who can't read.

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The Problem is that people think that KPs are required to "sort out the bad players" and are fucking paranoid about fakes.And if you tell people youre using the KPs for what they were originally intended you get kicked instantly."I used my KP for guildhall stuff or to buy infusions" gets you kicked out of a group really fast because people instantly assume that youre a noob and dont have any KP which in most cases isnt true.The problem is in the peoples heads, because they are so distrusting and are not using LFG the right way.People have a trust issue and problems to trust other people that they speak the truth.

If you want a smoth run with "pros", try putting something like that on LFG"Fractals all CMs, fast run, be experienced or kick"

And btw. theres a lot of good players out there who dont have the time to farm fractals daily but are still so good that they can easily do the CMs, but if they see the 250 KP requirement, they just think "fuck those elitists, im going with another group"

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@"Blumpf.2518" said:The Problem is that people think that KPs are required to "sort out the bad players" and are kitten paranoid about fakes.And if you tell people youre using the KPs for what they were originally intended you get kicked instantly."I used my KP for guildhall stuff or to buy infusions" gets you kicked out of a group really fast because people instantly assume that youre a noob and dont have any KP which in most cases isnt true.The problem is in the peoples heads, because they are so distrusting and are not using LFG the right way.People have a trust issue and problems to trust other people that they speak the truth.

If you want a smoth run with "pros", try putting something like that on LFG"Fractals all CMs, fast run, be experienced or kick"

And btw. theres a lot of good players out there who dont have the time to farm fractals daily but are still so good that they can easily do the CMs, but if they see the 250 KP requirement, they just think "kitten those elitists, im going with another group"

Putting "experienced" or "pros" in the LFG won't help because people over-estimate their own ability. There was a thread last week where someone had 12 raid kills and had "seen most of the bosses" who then considered themselves experienced based on that. This was very far from the truth and why using KP is a thing.

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@Virdo.1540 said:

@Virdo.1540 said:just ask for titles and not for KPs. cuz they cannot be faked

but they can be bought.

kps too :bleep_bloop:

True, except for the ones not available any longer.

Beside that though, I fail to see how you can equate something which takes 1 run as similar to something which takes multiple hundred runs.

If we assume 300 KP as "requirement" and an average of 2 KP per run, which was the average pre change, you are essentially arguing that these 150 runs are is as easily bought as 1 run for the title.

The difference in dedication, cost and time allocated is way higher in on case versus the other.

@"Blumpf.2518" said:The Problem is that people think that KPs are required to "sort out the bad players" and are kitten paranoid about fakes.

It has worked so far and since it is not going away, it seems to continue to work.

@"Blumpf.2518" said:And if you tell people youre using the KPs for what they were originally intended you get kicked instantly."I used my KP for guildhall stuff or to buy infusions" gets you kicked out of a group really fast because people instantly assume that youre a noob and dont have any KP which in most cases isnt true.

Infusians can be pinged, most often people who claim they've used the KP for the guild are given 1 try.

@"Blumpf.2518" said:The problem is in the peoples heads, because they are so distrusting and are not using LFG the right way.

These "people" are using the LFG exactly as is intended: they put up what they are asking for ans expect others to respect their wishes.

Only because you personally might disagree does not make this in any way wrong.

@"Blumpf.2518" said:People have a trust issue and problems to trust other people that they speak the truth.

If you want a smoth run with "pros", try putting something like that on LFG"Fractals all CMs, fast run, be experienced or kick"

You mean ask for something and hope others respect your wish? Sounds almost like what we had with KP, only even more reliant on the joining party being honest.

News flash: having to kick people isn't fun. It takes time, causes toxicity and frustration and everyone tries to avoid it. Not to mention the amount of forums posts of disgruntled players following kicks.

I do find it hilarious though how suddenly the anti KP faction discoverd the "just kick them then" argument. As if any one enjoyes having to kick others from group.

@"Blumpf.2518" said:And btw. theres a lot of good players out there who dont have the time to farm fractals daily but are still so good that they can easily do the CMs, but if they see the 250 KP requirement, they just think "kitten those elitists, im going with another group"

Yes congratulations, you've realized that the KP system is not perfect, far from it.

If you want to be rid of it, you should make an argument for a better system which is fairer (to all parties involved) and not come up with nonsense excuses why KP are bad. WE KNOW.

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Since the old KPs were removed I experience a lot of issues. I almost daily get groups that can't even beat 100CM despite asking for 150-250 old KPs. They also want to see DwD, which I have obviously, but thanks to selling this title means literally nothing. Imo removing KPs has made fakers and liars less careful.

I also think unlike in raids titles in fractals CM runs are more important and therefor selling them is a D-move hurting this mode severely.

To be honest doing my daily fractal runs have become so frustrating I have totally lost interest in it.

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@"Clyan.1593" said:Since the old KPs were removed I experience a lot of issues. I almost daily get groups that can't even beat 100CM despite asking for 150-250 old KPs. They also want to see DwD, which I have obviously, but thanks to selling this title means literally nothing. Imo removing KPs has made fakers and liars less careful.

I also encountered some players with old kp (100-150) who were failing mecas on 99, but instead of more fakers, it can also be due to "old" players return to test the new fractal, but they forgot how to play...

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@"Blumpf.2518" said:The Problem is that people think that KPs are required to "sort out the bad players" and are kitten paranoid about fakes.And if you tell people youre using the KPs for what they were originally intended you get kicked instantly."I used my KP for guildhall stuff or to buy infusions" gets you kicked out of a group really fast because people instantly assume that youre a noob and dont have any KP which in most cases isnt true.The problem is in the peoples heads, because they are so distrusting and are not using LFG the right way.People have a trust issue and problems to trust other people that they speak the truth.

If you want a smoth run with "pros", try putting something like that on LFG"Fractals all CMs, fast run, be experienced or kick"

And btw. theres a lot of good players out there who dont have the time to farm fractals daily but are still so good that they can easily do the CMs, but if they see the 250 KP requirement, they just think "kitten those elitists, im going with another group"

Like @Cyninja.2954 and @"Ayrilana.1396" said KP is far from perfect but this all we got.People don't care at all when you just put "exp" on lfg as it means nothing : what exp means? 1 training? 1 successful run? 10runs? 100run?It is not a trust issue as we all experienced people who were thinking they were good (so without lying) but in fact no. And sure people without kp can be good, but you can't know without running with them and then your "exp" run can easily turn in a "training" run... No one like kick people, so we use kp to minimize this issue.

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One think i dont unterstand is, why you even need more Kps for Fractal Cms, then for Raiding? Most of the Raid encounters have a higher difficulty then Frac Cms and i never see 250 Kps request for Lfg. More like 50 - 100 kp, often less and on average you get more kps per kill in rais(3), then in Fracs 2. Sure the Lfg groups in Fracs maybe want to more "speedrun" the content, then the Raid Lfg groups. All Speedrun Raid groups are most likely Statics and dont want random Lfg people. Now you could do the same for Fracs. The difference would be, that the Static will run every day in the week or (6 out of 7 days etc. ). So its harder to manage your RL + Gw2 playtime. The solution for some "speedrunner" is to have the possibilitie to see Kps, Titles, Arc Dps logs or even to see how often a player kills encounter/boss. This would fix her problems, because they can pug via Lfg for "Speedruns". The consequence for new player would be, that they have to ping Kps and most farm them (like now), show dps logs or most show titles etc. . The best case szenario for "Speedruns" via Lfg, would be the worst case szenario for new player who want to get in touch with Frac cms. Keep that in mind.

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Well they could make kill-proof account wide and have it tracked like the death count. In the LFG, Anet could create a filter for predefined thresholds for KP. For example, there could be a threshold for 50+ KP and another for 100+. Those that don't at least meet the selected threshold simply do not see the LFG. This way would keep someone's KP mostly hidden in case they were afraid of being judged by it and also ensure that groups only get players that meet the KP setting they have selected.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:Well they could make kill-proof account wide and have it tracked like the death count. In the LFG, Anet could create a filter for predefined thresholds for KP. For example, there could be a threshold for 50+ KP and another for 100+. Those that don't at least meet the selected threshold simply do not see the LFG. This way would keep someone's KP mostly hidden in case they were afraid of being judged by it and also ensure that groups only get players that meet the KP setting they have selected.

Yep, but they won't do it unfortunatly (see what a fractal dev said in the guildchat about kp).

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@"Armen.1483" said:Here is another example: https://imgur.com/a/ptToMUUThey even use the killproof.me hoping we won't check that, then become toxic when we do.Perhaps it would have been better understandable with more context, but what i see is someone posting their killproof, then someone else putting up an LFG requirement that doesn't match that killproof.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Armen.1483" said:Here is another example:
They even use the killproof.me hoping we won't check that, then become toxic when we do.Perhaps it would have been better understandable with more context, but what i see is someone posting their killproof,
then
someone else putting up an LFG requirement that doesn't match that killproof.

Not really, it seems to me they just changed the roles needed in lfg, it's pretty common

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Honestly I don't see the point in these discussions anymore. It is abundantly clear that they have no intention of re-instituting KP. It has never been compatible with their stance on "accessibility", and any feedback, no matter however logical or reasonable will not change their minds. People who want to clear fractals in a way that requires more competence than your average title only group need to bite the bullet and move to killproof.me. You can't fake KP there and it's more resistant to any changes Anet makes in the future. If it becomes mainstream it would only be a matter of time until someone makes a simple overlay that takes the inconvenience of using the site out of the picture.

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@"Derm.4932" said:Honestly I don't see the point in these discussions anymore. It is abundantly clear that they have no intention of re-instituting KP. It has never been compatible with their stance on "accessibility", and any feedback, no matter however logical or reasonable will not change their minds. People who want to clear fractals in a way that requires more competence than your average title only group need to bite the bullet and move to killproof.me. You can't fake KP there and it's more resistant to any changes Anet makes in the future. If it becomes mainstream it would only be a matter of time until someone makes a simple overlay that takes the inconvenience of using the site out of the picture.

Or anet blocks api from that site as anet dont want any kill proofs

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@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@"Armen.1483" said:Here is another example:
They even use the killproof.me hoping we won't check that, then become toxic when we do.Perhaps it would have been better understandable with more context, but what i see is someone posting their killproof,
then
someone else putting up an LFG requirement that doesn't match that killproof.

Not really, it seems to me they just changed the roles needed in lfg, it's pretty commonPossibly - but it's not there in the picture posted. That's why i said that more context would help
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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Derm.4932" said:Honestly I don't see the point in these discussions anymore. It is abundantly clear that they have no intention of re-instituting KP. It has never been compatible with their stance on "accessibility", and any feedback, no matter however logical or reasonable will not change their minds. People who want to clear fractals in a way that requires more competence than your average title only group need to bite the bullet and move to killproof.me. You can't fake KP there and it's more resistant to any changes Anet makes in the future. If it becomes mainstream it would only be a matter of time until someone makes a simple overlay that takes the inconvenience of using the site out of the picture.

Or anet blocks api from that site as anet dont want any kill proofs

Arena.NET can just unlist the KPs in the API but this isn't the main problem. True I don't like sites who use API keys because in other games like EVE online you can do so much nasty stuff with it. The main problem is the new 100cm is just hard even with the right group when even one is slacking or greed too much dps the whole group wipes .To but more details in it and be more precise:

-> the last water phase is with lower dps a roulette without voicechat because you can't track who has how many and in general the effect goes random-> You need an awful amount of cc in this fractal cc consumables became mandatory->In the sorrow phase the fps drops heavy for many players because of the light show + your are really get blinded on the screen on this. - This is the main reason of 90% of the wipes. The only way around is using level 22 rocks

  • cFB is just OP 25% more dps then every other build in average

  • The fractals bugs it can't really count I don't know how much is fixed but thunderstorm phase didn't end because it things there is still one, not meteor to hide behind all blow up, and on T4 I had that not every one had a cycle with them when running apart

  • Phases can overlap partial and total in this fractal e.g. the cycle phase where you need to run apart + sorrow phase.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Armen.1483" said:Here is another example:
They even use the killproof.me hoping we won't check that, then become toxic when we do.Perhaps it would have been better understandable with more context, but what i see is someone posting their killproof,
then
someone else putting up an LFG requirement that doesn't match that killproof.

Not really, it seems to me they just changed the roles needed in lfg, it's pretty commonPossibly - but it's not there in the picture posted. That's why i said that more context would help

Sure but we can't check your assumption too, which is less probable in my opinion than just a roles change.

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@"Janitsu.6284" said:But Anet said on stream that the best way to check someone's competence in fractals is by gear checking them? I don't see an issue since this game has a built-in gear checker and allows said thing in their ToS. Or at least so I'd expect since those comments were made.

There is no "built-in gear checker" and it will probably never the case : it's against the tos right now, even if a dev said that.

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