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[Spoiler] Jormag's true intention


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@"Jack Swiftclaw.9076" said:The idea of a scion for Jormag is interesting. What would it be? Has it been born? Who is it's champion?

We are neglecting one aspect of this story. The Norn. Why are we getting so much about the spirts of the wild?

The idea that this is just a fluff filler makes no sense to me. I'm drawn to the idea of a centaur. They were featured in the trailer and we haven't seen any. What if, and this is just a thought, we kill Jormag and replace him with a belovant centaur similar to ventari. This could be the change in tide or the human centaur war. Idk it's the idea that won't leave me. We all assume that the scion is a dragon but what if the vessal just needs to be able to channel and control the dragon magic.

The main issue I see here is that we think that lesser beings, such as lesser dragons, centaurs, the Pale Tree, or anything else for that matter, is in a better position to manage torment than Elder Dragons. If you think that Zaithan was a problem, try giving it's torment to lesser beings. We know about one instance of that: the Margonites briefly shared Abaddon's torment. They didn't last long. Terrestrial spellcasters all but wiped them out at the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven. What a lesser being needs, to manage torment, is a unique biology suited to metabolising dirty magic. Unique biologies belong to creatures in the "god" category; creatures such as the Nightmare Incarnate.

And we all know what trying to manage torment did for him, right? It put him in an early grave, dead before he even got started. This idea that everyone touts on about, that we can just "replace" Elder Dragons is as close to lunacy as terrestrial spellcasters' thinking gets.

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@"Jack Swiftclaw.9076" said:The idea of a scion for Jormag is interesting. What would it be? Has it been born? Who is it's champion?

We are neglecting one aspect of this story. The Norn. Why are we getting so much about the spirts of the wild?

The idea that this is just a fluff filler makes no sense to me. I'm drawn to the idea of a centaur. They were featured in the trailer and we haven't seen any. What if, and this is just a thought, we kill Jormag and replace him with a belovant centaur similar to ventari. This could be the change in tide or the human centaur war. Idk it's the idea that won't leave me. We all assume that the scion is a dragon but what if the vessal just needs to be able to channel and control the dragon magic.

The Ice Column Creature from GW1 is a pretty strong candidate for a scion, imo. Drakkar was too, but we know how that ended.

As to the centaur theory. That seems too convenient to me. Especially since ANet's spent time and time again telling us that normal mortals can't even attempt to harness nearly enough power as Elder Dragons without going utterly and completely insane, and that even the Six Gods aren't capable of replacing the Elder Dragons in The All to prevent the world's destruction.

@Stephen.6312 said:

@"Jack Swiftclaw.9076" said:The idea of a scion for Jormag is interesting. What would it be? Has it been born? Who is it's champion?

We are neglecting one aspect of this story. The Norn. Why are we getting so much about the spirts of the wild?

The idea that this is just a fluff filler makes no sense to me. I'm drawn to the idea of a centaur. They were featured in the trailer and we haven't seen any.
What if, and this is just a thought, we kill Jormag and replace him with a belovant centaur similar to ventari.
This could be the change in tide or the human centaur war. Idk it's the idea that won't leave me. We all assume that the scion is a dragon but what if the vessal just needs to be able to channel and control the dragon magic.

The main issue I see here is that we think that lesser beings, such as lesser dragons, centaurs, the Pale Tree, or anything else for that matter, is in a better position to manage torment than Elder Dragons. If you think that Zaithan was a problem, try giving it's torment to lesser beings. We know about one instance of that: the Margonites briefly shared Abaddon's torment. They didn't last long. Terrestrial spellcasters all but wiped them out at the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven. What a lesser being needs, to manage torment, is a unique biology suited to metabolising dirty magic. Unique biologies belong to creatures in the "god" category; creatures such as the Nightmare Incarnate.

And we all know what trying to manage torment did for him, right? It put him in an early grave, dead before he even got started. This idea that everyone touts on about, that we can just "replace" Elder Dragons is as close to lunacy as terrestrial spellcasters' thinking gets.

There's no relation between the Realm of Torment and the Elder Dragons' torment, as far as we're told. And as such, no connection was ever made between Abaddon and the Elder Dragons or their (largely hypothetical still) Torment. So I'm not quite sure where you're coming from.

As to the last sentence - replacing the Elder Dragons is the entire purpose of Glint's Legacy, and something we've done once with Aurene. We just need a suitable candidate (and all evidence points that they must be a "high dragon" (fanon term to differentiate from canonical "lesser dragons" term that includes skyscales and wyverns) like Glint and her scions are/were).

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

As to the last sentence - replacing the Elder Dragons is the entire purpose of Glint's Legacy, and something we've done once with Aurene. We just need a suitable candidate (and all evidence points that they must be a "high dragon" (fanon term to differentiate from canonical "lesser dragons" term that includes skyscales and wyverns) like Glint and her scions are/were).

Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Stephen.6312 said:Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?She has literally been called such several times now.

By mortals. Has a fellow Elder Dragon referred to her as such?

Yeah, Aurene has...

Aurene: I'm the youngest Elder Dragon, but I wasn't born yesterday.

All that demonstrates is that Aurene thinks of herself as an Elder Dragon. That doesn't mean that she is. What criteria do you use to assess whether a dragon is an "Elder"?

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@Stephen.6312 said:

@Stephen.6312 said:Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?She has literally been called such several times now.

By mortals. Has a fellow Elder Dragon referred to her as such?

Yeah, Aurene has...

Aurene: I'm the youngest Elder Dragon, but I wasn't born yesterday.

All that demonstrates is that Aurene
thinks
of herself as an Elder Dragon. That doesn't mean that she is. What criteria do you use to assess whether a dragon is an "Elder"?

Really? Even in the prologue release magazine Aurene was listed as one of the elder dragons? How is this news? lol Did you miss last living story season or are you just trolling?

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@Stephen.6312 said:

@Stephen.6312 said:Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?She has literally been called such several times now.

By mortals. Has a fellow Elder Dragon referred to her as such?

Yeah, Aurene has...

Aurene: I'm the youngest Elder Dragon, but I wasn't born yesterday.

All that demonstrates is that Aurene
thinks
of herself as an Elder Dragon. That doesn't mean that she is. What criteria do you use to assess whether a dragon is an "Elder"?

The fact that she - a being far more knowledgeable about Elder Dragons and their place in the working of the World, whose entire existence was to become one - has told us directly that she is now one. She's even shown her power by over-writing the brand with hjer own positive corruption. The fact that she can hold the energy signatures from other Dragons and the World not blow up is another sign. She's keeping the All in balance.

Apart from Jormag - who hasn't really focused much conversation on Aurene yet - there is no other more reliable source who could tell us than Aurene herself. Primordus hasn't shown any indication it can communicate yet and the DSD is only just recognised as existing, let alone being in a position to communicate. The other three were dead before she became one.

Sometimes we don't need to overthink these things because the writers literally gift it to us. The story is nowhere near deep enough to explore alternative answers to things so clear cut

She's an Elder Dragon

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@Randulf.7614 said:

Your response about Aurene being knowledgeable about the cycle of the EDs is fair. However, you and I know that she remarked that she was learning about their role within the magical ecosystem.

One thing that I think is clear here is that no one seems to have a good explanation for what constitutes an Elder Dragon. How would you explain the difference between an Elder Dragon and a lesser dragon?

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@Stephen.6312 said:

Your response about Aurene being knowledgeable about the cycle of the EDs is fair. However, you and I know that she remarked that she was learning about their role within the magical ecosystem.

One thing that I think is clear here is that no one seems to have a good explanation for what constitutes an Elder Dragon. How would you explain the difference between an Elder Dragon and a lesser dragon?

I gave it to you. She is holding the All in balance. For our purposes that is enough. We know it cannot be done if she wasn’t an elder dragon as the world would be out of balance and she’d be dead.

This is well explained in the story

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@Randulf.7614 said:

Your response about Aurene being knowledgeable about the cycle of the EDs is fair. However, you and I know that she remarked that she was learning about their role within the magical ecosystem.

One thing that I think is clear here is that no one seems to have a good explanation for what constitutes an Elder Dragon. How would you explain the difference between an Elder Dragon and a lesser dragon?

I gave it to you. She is holding the All in balance. For our purposes that is enough. We know it cannot be done if she wasn’t an elder dragon as the world would be out of balance and she’d be dead.

This is well explained in the story

"The magics do not torment you" is a statement that piques my interest. Why is Aurene doing anything more than Kralkatorrik did? What if an Elder Dragon is chosen by tormented magic? Did tormented magic choose Aurene? No, it rejected her, stating that Aurene "betrays her own kind".

The so-called Elder Dragon of .... what ???, is nothing more than a pawn in someone elses' much, much bigger game.

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@Stephen.6312 said:

Your response about Aurene being knowledgeable about the cycle of the EDs is fair. However, you and I know that she remarked that she was learning about their role within the magical ecosystem.

One thing that I think is clear here is that no one seems to have a good explanation for what constitutes an Elder Dragon. How would you explain the difference between an Elder Dragon and a lesser dragon?

I gave it to you. She is holding the All in balance. For our purposes that is enough. We know it cannot be done if she wasn’t an elder dragon as the world would be out of balance and she’d be dead.

This is well explained in the story

"The magics do not torment you" is a statement that piques my interest. Why is Aurene doing anything more than Kralkatorrik did? What if an Elder Dragon is
chosen
by tormented magic? Did tormented magic choose Aurene? No, it rejected her, stating that Aurene "betrays her own kind".

The so-called Elder Dragon of .... what ???, is nothing more than a pawn in someone elses' much, much bigger game.

The first part isn’t fully known just yet beyond we know that Aurene was raised in different and specific way hence her behaviour. She’s also as yet not afflicted by the torment from years of magic accumulation.

As for the last bit,that would be the worst possible, laziest, cheesiest plot twist they could come up with. Another secret super being more super than the existing super beings is not something I’d be happy to see or explore. I’d hope the writers were better than that

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Just a thought - what if the torment is somehow related to gods and the human race? For Aeons, the Dragons have awoken, consumed magic and fallen back to slumber. The last known Dragonrise before the actual one was 13,000 years ago. However, during the last hibernation and about 2,000 years ago six human gods appear in Cantha and bring their own domains of magic and humans with them. Some of the magic might be sealed in Bloodstones and this seems to be complex circumstances, but what if said magic caused the torment, just like a virus that was new to the world of Tyria.

Aurene on the other hand was taken care of long before her birth by humans, she might have adapted to such a "virus" even before she hatched.

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the torment was already there at the last dragonrise, also the bloodstone was also already there, the seer made it to seal up the last magic so the dragons would go to sleep (it is speculation that this is the reason why the elder dragons all here at the continent of tyria, because the bloodstone was here, this was the last part of magic seems left before it got sealed in the stone)

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@Stephen.6312 said:

Your response about Aurene being knowledgeable about the cycle of the EDs is fair. However, you and I know that she remarked that she was learning about their role within the magical ecosystem.

One thing that I think is clear here is that no one seems to have a good explanation for what constitutes an Elder Dragon. How would you explain the difference between an Elder Dragon and a lesser dragon?

I gave it to you. She is holding the All in balance. For our purposes that is enough. We know it cannot be done if she wasn’t an elder dragon as the world would be out of balance and she’d be dead.

This is well explained in the story

"The magics do not torment you" is a statement that piques my interest. Why is Aurene doing anything more than Kralkatorrik did? What if an Elder Dragon is
chosen
by tormented magic? Did tormented magic choose Aurene? No, it rejected her, stating that Aurene "betrays her own kind".

The so-called Elder Dragon of .... what ???, is nothing more than a pawn in someone elses' much, much bigger game.

Believe she us the Elder Dragon of Light or Primastic Dragon as advised in some text as well as the Gw magazine.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/september-04-2019/

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@Stephen.6312 said:

@Stephen.6312 said:Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?She has literally been called such several times now.

By mortals, maybe. Has a "fellow" Elder Dragon referred to her as such?Besides being confirmed by Tom Abernathy (and other devs), Jormag brings it up too during dialogue with Bangar, referring her to the "dragon of prisoms" just as Taimi's notes in the Icebrood Saga magazine did (while Aurene refers to Jormag as the "dragon of ice and persuasion" in return).

The entire purpose of the plot from Season 3 to Season 4 was to make Aurene an Elder Dragon. You often deny various points of the canon lore facts, but this is beyond the norm. Makes me think you're just trolling.

@Stephen.6312 said:"The magics do not torment you" is a statement that piques my interest. Why is Aurene doing anything more than Kralkatorrik did? What if an Elder Dragon is chosen by tormented magic? Did tormented magic choose Aurene? No, it rejected her, stating that Aurene "betrays her own kind".

The so-called Elder Dragon of .... what ???, is nothing more than a pawn in someone elses' much, much bigger game.

Tormented magic isn't an entity, it's a result of consuming too much magic without a proper output for the burden.

This was all confirmed by Tom Abernathy - whom you cite as a reliable source of lore - during Guild Chat Episode 85. Including Aurene being an Elder Dragon (I'd quote but that text is in major need of formatting).

In theory, Glint explained why Aurene is different before she was ever called different in All or Nothing:

Glint: You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price.Glint: Champion, this magic is powerful and dangerous. Share the burden so she can absorb it.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_%26_Champion#In_Glint.27s_Lair

Aurene is the "first of her kind" only because she bonds with mortals in a way that lets her share the burden of magic - something that all mortals suffer from, and as revealed in War Eternal even Elder Dragons can if they take in too much. And now Jormag is trying to mimick this with Ryland, perhaps because it too suffers from Torment and

@"Rhywolver.8250" said:Just a thought - what if the torment is somehow related to gods and the human race? For Aeons, the Dragons have awoken, consumed magic and fallen back to slumber. The last known Dragonrise before the actual one was 13,000 years ago. However, during the last hibernation and about 2,000 years ago six human gods appear in Cantha and bring their own domains of magic and humans with them. Some of the magic might be sealed in Bloodstones and this seems to be complex circumstances, but what if said magic caused the torment, just like a virus that was new to the world of Tyria.

Aurene on the other hand was taken care of long before her birth by humans, she might have adapted to such a "virus" even before she hatched.I recommend watching Guild Chat Episode 85 (or trying to decipher the raw text on wiki), as during that Tom Abernathy and other devs explain that Kralkatorrik was suffering from the conflicting magic that manifested as Kralkatorrik's Torment for eons - well before the previous dragonrise even. It has zero relation to the Six Gods and human race as they're far, far younger than the previous dragonrise.

Also, the last known Dragonrise wasn't 13,000 years ago, but 11,000-3,000 years ago. Earliest dates are 10,000 BE, and latest dates are roughly 1,769 BE.

Also also, the Bloodstone contains Tyrian magic, not the gods' magic. As far as we know, in fact, the first time the gods' magic got mixed into the world directly was Balthazar's death - unless Dhuum's defeat, the war with Abaddon, or the Jade Wind introduced such, but while likely we don't have explicit confirmation. Even Nightfall, though tainted by Abaddon, was ultimately just the Mists' magic (specifically Realm of Torment, which likely predates the Six Gods' arrival as beings other than the Six are related to the afterlives of Thyria).

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With the talk of torment and the dragon rises, I begin to wonder if the scrapped concept of angels and demons, which was originally going to be the story of GW2, before the Elder Dragons, might have relevance. I’m wondering if this story may look at the prehistory of Tyria, the beginning of these elder dragon cycles as some sort of aftermath of an ancient conflict of long past, which resulted in the dragons needing to balance the all in the first place, possibly with the dragons vs these angels/demons entities.

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@"Tyson.5160" said:With the talk of torment and the dragon rises, I begin to wonder if the scrapped concept of angels and demons, which was originally going to be the story of GW2, before the Elder Dragons, might have relevance.

That's my gut instinct, too. In my opinion, tormented magic is demonic in origin and nature. The whispers to which so many creatures refer - from Scarlet Briar (who states that she heard "whispers" from the forest) to the kodan suffering from The Hunger - are demons pressing upon vulnerable minds. Those who hear these whispers have been "chosen" to help treat tormented magic (which I believe is traumatised aether) that builds up within each sphere of elemental magic.

I’m wondering if this story may look at the prehistory of Tyria, the beginning of these elder dragon cycles as some sort of aftermath of an ancient conflict of long past, which resulted in the dragons needing to balance the all in the first place, possibly with the dragons vs these angels/demons entities.

I think that a plausible conflict of long past is the Great Battle at The Gates of Heaven. We briefly learn about this monumental battle in GW1:Nightfall and, as I see it, the GBaTGoH is that conflict to which Kormir refers in PoF.

I'm thinking that the Elder Dragons each treat a different elemental sphere of magic.

  • Primordus treats tormented fire magic (i.e. aether traumatised in the process of being torn from the fabric of reality as a result of spell-casting)
  • "Bubbles" treats traumatised water magic
  • Zaithan treats traumatised aether (i.e. aether torn from itself in the process of casting a spell)
  • Jormag treats tormented air magic
  • Kralkatorrik treats traumatised time magic
  • Mordremoth treats tormented earth magic

This is presently my approach to understanding how each Elder Dragon processes magic

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@Stephen.6312 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:With the talk of
torment
and the dragon rises, I begin to wonder if the scrapped concept of angels and demons, which was originally going to be the story of GW2, before the Elder Dragons, might have relevance.

That's my gut instinct, too. In my opinion, tormented magic is demonic in origin and nature. The whispers to which so many creatures refer - from Scarlet Briar (who states that she heard "whispers" from the forest) to the kodan suffering from The Hunger - are demons pressing upon vulnerable minds. Those who hear these whispers have been "chosen" to help treat tormented magic (which I believe is traumatised aether) that builds up within each sphere of elemental magic.

I’m wondering if this story may look at the
prehistory of Tyria
, the beginning of these elder dragon cycles as some sort of aftermath of an ancient
conflict
of long past, which resulted in the dragons needing to balance the all in the first place, possibly with the dragons vs these angels/demons entities.

I think that a plausible conflict of long past is the Great Battle at The Gates of Heaven. We briefly learn about this monumental battle in GW1:Nightfall and, as I see it, the GBaTGoH is that conflict to which Kormir refers in PoF.

I'm thinking that the Elder Dragons each treat a different elemental sphere of magic.
  • Primordus treats tormented fire magic (i.e. aether traumatised in the process of being torn from the fabric of reality as a result of spell-casting)
  • "Bubbles" treats traumatised water magic
  • Zaithan treats traumatised aether (i.e. aether torn from itself in the process of casting a spell)
  • Jormag treats tormented air magic
  • Kralkatorrik treats traumatised time magic
  • Mordremoth treats tormented earth magic

This is presently my approach to understanding how each Elder Dragon processes magic

Maybe Tyria always had a balancing issue or perhaps a conflict with demons or darkness or some other extraterrestrial force led to the influx of magic, that required the need of Elder Dragons. I’m just thinking that the previous plot that they wanted for GW2 and possibly Utopia could have some relevance in future story lines or the events of the distant past.

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Jormag is actually one of few who dont corrupt the unwilling directly but only if they so wish its shown most of jormags minions can ignore obeying like the sons of svanir who tried to prevent us to go to bjora so jormag directly contacted us in guise of allmora . Jormags nature is not destruction but i have noticed jormag seems to have a need to speak with others while primordious dislike life and wants all things to burn. Also jormag dont seem to display same hunger as other elders as jormag did not eat the mists then passing through and is placed rather far from large nexuses of magic. The servants can use magic given to corrupt unwilling but this could be the power they demanded from jormag it also seem the sons even icebrooded ones dont always obey. But jormag seems to have a twist of irony then giving gifts as the gift given isnt always what the reciever thought like bangar wanted to be champion of jormag he got that. I also suspect ryland had made a deal previously unknown to bangar as ryland did not hear whispers

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@Stephen.6312 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I’m wondering if this story may look at the prehistory of Tyria, the beginning of these elder dragon cycles as some sort of aftermath of an ancient conflict of long past, which resulted in the dragons needing to balance the all in the first place, possibly with the dragons vs these angels/demons entities.I think that a plausible conflict of long past is the Great Battle at The Gates of Heaven. We briefly learn about this monumental battle in GW1:Nightfall and, as I see it, the GBaTGoH is that conflict to which Kormir refers in PoF.Abaddon assaulted the Gates of Heaven in his rebellion of 1 BE. It is just a part of the conflict Kormir refers to in PoF.

This would be several thousand years after Kralkatorrik was first influenced by the conflicting energies that formed Kralkatorrik's Torment.

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