Jump to content
  • Sign Up

How to make better jumping puzzles - [Merged]


Fipmip.7219

Recommended Posts

A moderately well known fact about Nintendo is when Shigeru was making Super Mario 64 for the nintendo 64, he discovered making pinpoint accurate jumps within a 3D space is just something that does not work. At all. Making a jumping game in 3D requires a pretty high degree of forgiveness to make it fun, a certain understanding of the player to make "good enough" judgement for a jump. However, the fine fellows at Anet don't seem to have gotten the memo, and as such we have minuscule stalagmite platforms, catchy headbanging geometry in awkward places, and unclear directional cues.

The pirate cave in Lions Arch immediately starts off with a *Guess the pixel perfect position you have to drop down into to even start the god damn puzzle." There's no time to avoid obstacles if you get it wrong, and you can barely move in midair to begin with. You are then lead through a pitch black maze in which if you miss the rather unclear cue to walk through a wall and turn left at the end, guess what you'll be wandering through pitch blackness for as long as it takes you to realize you can use your minimap to navigate through without the help of the spirit in the first place. When you do finally get out of the maze, it is again, extremely unclear where to go, the answer is to spam jump your way up some rather badly textured geometry to a tunnel above and to your right.

There's problems with pretty much every puzzle I've tried so far with absolutely no signs of learning from Anet throughout the years of releasing expansions. I would like to at very least like to see some clear directional cues with the puzzles released in PoF, with the path clearly laid out in what you're supposed to do. I get that from time to time you may want players to navigate some form of maze, but the fact the maze is there and the different possible paths the maze has needs to be clearly shown. Don't make people randomly jump off unrecoverable cliffs just because they think you might have hidden the correct path down there. If you want to make a jumping puzzle difficult, you'll want to outfox your players using clever tricks, not make them struggle to overcome core gameplay elements.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm kinda with you, OP. Not necessarily about Weyandt's Revenge, but maybe that's because I've been through it often.

But yes, there do exist some persistent design issues with jumping puzzles, and sometimes they are willfully ignored for the sake of "hard".Conveyance has never been the GW2 team's strong suit. I think it's because they like puzzles and want people to learn by experience. Or dying, I'm not sure which, exactly. Sometimes the clues are just really subtle, like checking out the vista before doing Weyandt's Revenge, or following the spirit through the wall. But in other puzzles, it's been obnoxious to determine what is supposed to be a climbable surface versus what will slide you off a ledge to your death. A sharp incline might be coded for walking, but it will be textured with the same stuff as a wall or cliff face, making it look impassable. Conversely, a path with a less steep slope might look walkable because we've climbed that gradient countless times in game, but it's not coded for walking, so the character slides off and dies.

The earlier JPs also snub "Fail Faster." They were never updated with checkpoints or designed with safety catches in the terrain to prevent the agony of starting from the beginning (or a waypoint, looking at you Not So Secret). Drydock Scratch or Abaddon's Ascent feature some pretty good checkpoint mechanics, with Abaddon's Ascent being the best jumping puzzle experience I've had so far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Abaddon's Ascent in Siren's Landing has checkpoints, so they actually are learning and making changes. it was also pretty clear where to go and how to do it. with some points it being a little bit of a gamble, which I prefer over the hand holding jumping puzzles.

I've enjoyed almost every jumping puzzle i've done. the only thing is the checkpoints, if there aren't any checkpoints it can be frustrating.so with the added checkpoints in Abaddon's Ascent, the future is looking good for jumping puzzles.

about the pirate cave jumping puzzles location, it's a great thing to add a jumping puzzle in a hidden location, it makes it more fun to explore it and try to beat it.I do however agree on the first part of the pirate cave jumping puzzle, dying because you moved an inch to much to the left or right is bad design. the rest of the puzzle is great however.

I just wished the zephyr airship would return, never managed to get to the very top (above the actual jumping puzzle objective).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The slide down the chute in Wyant's Revenge has changed over time, presumably because of the changes made to the physics engine. It was far more forgiving for a very long time until one day, it was just harder. The rest of the puzzle I didn't have much problem with however and if you think it's hard, please please don't try Chalice of Tears.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i to have to say i would rather se them removed, the Movement in this game is the same as in every mmo and no with such movement its not funny to make them.

if they would implement an ego perspektive and movement like in Assasins Creed at least in the jumping puzzles than it would be ok.

I have to say i play an MMO for Story, Dungeons and raids and not for jumping hours with such a movement set in caves or anywhere else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dragisnaj.2053 said:i to have to say i would rather se them removed, the Movement in this game is the same as in every mmo and no with such movement its not funny to make them.

if they would implement an ego perspektive and movement like in Assasins Creed at least in the jumping puzzles than it would be ok.

I have to say i play an MMO for Story, Dungeons and raids and not for jumping hours with such a movement set in caves or anywhere else.

But you aren't required to do the jumping puzzles so removing from the game would take them away from players that enjoy them. There is no reason to remove them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dragisnaj.2053 said:i to have to say i would rather se them removed, the Movement in this game is the same as in every mmo and no with such movement its not funny to make them.

if they would implement an ego perspektive and movement like in Assasins Creed at least in the jumping puzzles than it would be ok.

I have to say i play an MMO for Story, Dungeons and raids and not for jumping hours with such a movement set in caves or anywhere else.

I would rather see raids removed. The combat in this game is different to other MMOs with no trinity system or specific group formats. Without that raids aren't fun. If they would implement the same combat system other games like WoW have then it would be ok.

I play GW2 for exploration, story and jumping puzzles, not for hours trying to beat an arbitrary DPS check on a boss.

Does that still seem so reasonable? Or are you really asking for an aspect of the game you don't personally enjoy to be removed just because you don't enjoy it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Stalkingwolf.6035 said:they do not need to remove the jps. but removing mastery points and trophies from the difficult jps.

I absolutely disagree with this; there's an abundance of mastery points so the few points we get for the jump puzzles are inconsequential. Also there needs to be some small incentive to running JPs, and for me any little "extra" that we get as recognition is just fine.Alternatively, if these rewards were to be removed from JP's they'd have to be removed from most other activities that some people think are too hard, cumbersome, drawn-out, or just plain boring. That would mean no more mastery points or ""extras" from raid, fractals, dungeons, pve, wvw, and pvp.

Or, we could just embrace the fact that some will like some parts more than others, but that there's ample rewards for everyone for doing everything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everything JP related is not needed in order to play.Consider JP an extra, or something required in order to achieve glorious things ( IE Aurora ) or just for fun.

You don't want masteries from a JP? You have plenty other solutions in order to get MP.You find it too hard? Don't do it ( or consider to do it with a mesmer ).You are capable of jumping but you feel lost and don't know where to go? Use a guide or try until you'll reach.

I do agree that the EB one is a mess, but still is a great one ( and checkpoints help ).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The one in lion's arch isn't really the most difficult, but I agree with the overall sentiment. I tried the jumping horror (won't call it "puzzle") in silverwaste lately and it was really the epitome of punishing frustrating design. There are platforms you need to jump on and of course there's no "save game" if you fail, and you will, because it requires pixel accuracy. Of course it doesn't help that Anet's current design philosophy is punishing = challenging = fun, but while the last two might be related, punishing is rarely fun. I'd rather have puzzles relying on smart use of game mechanics rather than falling on the right pixel or you're SOL and have to start over. What kind of game doesn't let you retry right where you failed? That's the kind of silly design i've not since since the 90s arcade-like console games and there's a very very good reason it's supposed to be gone forever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do not do jumping puzzles, I just wish it was easier to find the way to some of the vistas fro map completion, but as someone who is super casual I will admit that my fun in this game isn't tied to 100% map completion or crafting legendary weapons and such so some of the time I just intentionally avoid frustrating mechanics and stick to my open world exploration as slow as it goes for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like jumping puzzles and ones like Sharkmaw Cavern especially, because it's more of an actual puzzle - there's relatively few tricky jumping sections, most of the challenge comes from figuring out where to go. Yes that does often involve trial and error, but that's fun to me.

But as other people said what it comes down to is different people like different things. You can't make a game with this much stuff to do where absolutely everyone will enjoy everything in it. But to me that just means it needs to be balanced so you don't have too much of one thing, not that some of the content should be removed or dumbed down to the point where it's no longer a challenge for anyone, because it's not a game mode some people enjoy.

@Rennie.6750 said:The one in lion's arch isn't really the most difficult, but I agree with the overall sentiment. I tried the jumping horror (won't call it "puzzle") in silverwaste lately and it was really the epitome of punishing frustrating design. There are platforms you need to jump on and of course there's no "save game" if you fail, and you will, because it requires pixel accuracy. Of course it doesn't help that Anet's current design philosophy is punishing = challenging = fun, but while the last two might be related, punishing is rarely fun. I'd rather have puzzles relying on smart use of game mechanics rather than falling on the right pixel or you're SOL and have to start over.

That's interesting, I've often heard that puzzle praised for being one that doesn't have any really challenging jumps and where most of the difficulty comes from finding your way rather than having the reflexes to pull off perfectly timed jumps.

Can you give some examples of the bits that required pixel accuracy to do, I think I know it fairly well but I can't think of any. There's 1 jump during the section with all the skritt tunnels and planks where I do find it easier with a speed boost (I normally don't use them at all in puzzles) but even then it's not a tricky jump, it's just I find I tend to miss it without the boost and it's safer to overshoot than under.

(Also if you weren't already aware the skritt kitts on the floor of the cavern will teleport you back to the last continue point you used. It's not quite the same as a saved game but it does mean you don't have to repeat the whole puzzle.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i like to play jps, but some are just frustrating. for example not so secret. It's so annoying that you need this jp to complete the Dive Master and to get the Mastery Point.Jumping onto 2px large textures is not fun. And if you miss the jump you die and start at the waypoint to repeat the whole way again.

why is a diving google from dive master in a jp anyway?!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Except the jumping in the Mario game isn't meant to be difficult. It was clearly explained by Josh in a video a year or so ago, probably the one for Ember Bay's, that they purposely made them that way for the difficulty.

What are you talking about? Have you progressed past World 1-1? Even taken casually (i.e. not a speedrun), the difficulty of platforming in Mario games do ramp up.

@Rennie.6750 said:The one in lion's arch isn't really the most difficult, but I agree with the overall sentiment.

Just so you realize, there are three jumping puzzles in Lion's Arch, including the infamous Troll's Revenge.

@Stalkingwolf.6035they do not need to remove the jps. but removing mastery points and trophies from the difficult jps.

Yes, and they shouldn't put good gear at the end of raids, or give the same rewards in T4 Fractals as T1, or make legendary collection so damned hard because I'm frigging entitled to my shinies.

Anyway, back on topic.

As a whole, @Fipmip.7219, I disagree with your assessment. It may be that you're a little peeved with Weyandt's Revenge, but that puzzle actually does decently with signposting using light/dark contrasts. Many of the other jumping puzzles, including the older ones, are also quite well designed, most especially the latest, The Arm of Abaddon. But that's not to say that there are poorly, and even very poorly, designed jumping puzzles; these suffer from a series of issues that are fortunately fixable if ArenaNet had the desire to revisit old content.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

if you think it's hard, please please don't try Chalice of Tears Deliberately Ignoring Good Design Decisions.

I think I'm less upset about Chalice of Tears being kinda poorly done for the sake of "difficulty" and more irritated with the attitude that came with it. A deliberate trollolo on behalf of the creator just feels like abuse rather than energizing the players with something cool like Abaddon's Ascent.

Much the same, I never would have finished Stepping Stones without my mesmer. And the saddest part was, I didn't have anyone to port to the end after I finished. I was so proud, and no one was there to benefit. :dissapointed:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow what's the problem? I enjoy the jumping puzzles, they're occasionally mindblowing and sometimes I can hardly believe the right path forward. But I LOVE that. I love that it's not always obvious. It gives you the sense that you're really exploring, that it's unpredictable and a true challenge. The jumping in the game is fine, and you just need to get used to the feel of it.

Jumping puzzles get a huge thumbs up for me, they're very enjoyable and cool. :+1:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ojimaru.8970 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Except the jumping in the Mario game isn't meant to be difficult. It was clearly explained by Josh in a video a year or so ago, probably the one for Ember Bay's, that they purposely made them that way for the difficulty.

What are you talking about? Have you progressed past World 1-1? Even taken casually (i.e. not a speedrun), the difficulty of platforming in Mario games
do
ramp up.

They don't get more difficult. Besides, my post was referring that jumping in Mario games are not meant to be difficult. By difficult, I mean challenging. This is why you cannot compare them to GW2 jumping puzzles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...