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Icebrood Saga: Champions (spoilers)


Daniel Handler.4816

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https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-icebrood-saga-champions/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=news&utm_campaign=rssThe episode titles are going to be Truce, Power, Balance, and then Judgement.

I have a feeling we are going to truce with Jormag to defeat Primordius. They were disabled the same time as Jormag, and we know Jormag continued to do stuff, but we don't know what Primordius has being doing this whole time. And if there was ever was an enemy of my enemy is my friend situation, it would be the source of Jormag's weakness.

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@Randulf.7614 said:Truce so soon after the events of last episode would jarring. Plus a truce with a Dragon known to manipulate would just be foolish.

We could be uniting the rest of Charr or all races who might be in conflict (perhaps including Centaur) in a truce to combat this threat.

It would. But killing the dragons is currently out of the question. And the only way we got Primordius to back off last time was by using Jormag.

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@Randulf.7614 said:Truce so soon after the events of last episode would jarring. Plus a truce with a Dragon known to manipulate would just be foolish.

We could be uniting the rest of Charr or all races who might be in conflict (perhaps including Centaur) in a truce to combat this threat.Yeah, if we make a truce with anyone it would be Bangar IMO. Bangar got screwed, knows it, and hates Jormag. But his name would still carries some power in the remaining Dominion/Frost Legion Charr. That or, as we saw in the ICebrood Saga trailer, and as you mentioned yourself, centaurs.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:It would. But killing the dragons is currently out of the question. And the only way we got Primordius to back off last time was by using Jormag.WE didn't do anything. Blathazar used Taimi's machine to try to harness the powers of the dragons, and that caused them both to go into hibernation.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:Truce so soon after the events of last episode would jarring. Plus a truce with a Dragon known to manipulate would just be foolish.

We could be uniting the rest of Charr or all races who might be in conflict (perhaps including Centaur) in a truce to combat this threat.Yeah, if we make a truce with anyone it would be Bangar IMO. Bangar got screwed, knows it, and hates Jormag. But his name would still carries some power in the remaining Dominion/Frost Legion Charr. That or, as we saw in the ICebrood Saga trailer, and as you mentioned yourself, centaurs.

That makes a lot more sense

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:It would. But killing the dragons is currently out of the question. And the only way we got Primordius to back off last time was by using Jormag.WE didn't do anything. Blathazar used Taimi's machine to try to harness the powers of the dragons, and that caused them both to go into hibernation.

Exactly. The aim was to kill both in one swoop which Balth took over when we realised how problematic that was

Ultimately it's a no win situation to side with Jormag. We help them, we then have Jormag stab us in the back or continue to corrupt our allies (which is probably what a truce would involve anyway). Why side with one or the other when we have Aurene anyway

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:It would. But killing the dragons is currently out of the question. And the only way we got Primordius to back off last time was by using Jormag.WE didn't do anything. Blathazar used Taimi's machine to try to harness the powers of the dragons, and that caused them both to go into hibernation.

On purpose no. But it still remains that Jormag was part of the process to make Primordius comatose, even if it was unintentional.

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@Randulf.7614 said:Ultimately it's a no win situation to side with Jormag. We help them, we then have Jormag stab us in the back or continue to corrupt our allies (which is probably what a truce would involve anyway). Why side with one or the other when we have Aurene anyway

Because according to Aurene, Primordius is flying around in the Mists planning something. And on the whole. Jormag has always been the less destructive dragon. He's literally the Dragon of Conflagration. The largest in size. And his minions don't get to enjoy as much freedom.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Because according to Aurene, Primordius is flying around in the Mists planning something. And on the whole. Jormag has always been the less destructive dragon.Uhh no. Aurne has never mentioned Primordus, she has said Jormag is moving around the Mists planning something.

I may have misremembered which one was flying around the Mists. That does not change the situation. Unless you know of some other way to incapacitate Primordus. Jormag is still the lesser of two evils. Primordus will eventually recover, and Jormag is currently the only way to deal with them.

There are multiple reasons why Aurene would prefer working with the Frost Legion/Icebrood over Destroyers.

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@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-icebrood-saga-champions/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=news&utm_campaign=rssThe episode titles are going to be Truce, Power, Balance, and then Judgement.

I have a feeling we are going to truce with Jormag to defeat Primordius. They were disabled the same time as Jormag, and we know Jormag continued to do stuff, but we don't know what Primordius has being doing this whole time. And if there was ever was an enemy of my enemy is my friend situation, it would be the source of Jormag's weakness.

Edit: I forgot from Jormag Rising Primordius is moving and a threat to come.

Given by the text of the preview, it’s clear that Primordus will be a large component of these new chapters. Seeing how Primordus was a major player in Season 3 and Jormag in IBS, we could see both dragons bite the dust and as the preview states the consequences will be felt across the sea.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:
The episode titles are going to be Truce, Power, Balance, and then Judgement.

I have a feeling we are going to truce with Jormag to defeat Primordius. They were disabled the same time as Jormag, and we know Jormag continued to do stuff, but we don't know what Primordius has being doing this whole time. And if there was ever was an enemy of my enemy is my friend situation, it would be the source of Jormag's weakness.

Edit: I forgot from Jormag Rising Primordius is moving and a threat to come.

Given by the text of the preview, it’s clear that Primordus will be a large component of these new chapters. Seeing how Primordus was a major player in Season 3 and Jormag in IBS, we could see both dragons bite the dust and as the preview states the consequences will be felt across the sea.

That too.

Dragon minion incursions have thrown once-peaceful lands into chaos, and there’s no predicting where the next attack will erupt.Each chapter of The Icebrood Saga: Champions introduces new Dragon Response Missions, which can be tackled solo or in a group of up to five players. In these encounters, you’ll head to invasion points to shore up defenses and protect the area from rampaging dragon minions. Work together with allied reinforcements to neutralize powerful dragon champions—the ultimate threat at the heart of the assaults

But I feel these threats, and the next one to die if that happened, would be Primordus. He has the reach to do global incursions. Jormag is in the far north.

During global faction mobilization events, players can pitch in to train, rally, and build trust with factions both familiar and unlikely. You’ll be rewarded for your efforts, and your allies will begin randomly appearing in Dragon Response Missions to lend their special strengths to the fight.

Befriending the Frost Legion sounds weird. But I could see Ryland leading them against Primordus.

The new incursions could also be from the water dragon. Which ice would also help with.

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@"Randulf.7614" said:Truce so soon after the events of last episode would jarring. Plus a truce with a Dragon known to manipulate would just be foolish.

My first thought is that the Truce isn't with Jormag, but with Dominion remnants. A true end to the Civil War and all conflicts with the charr (e.g., human-charr conflict), ushering in a new era of peace for charrkind under a new form of leadership brought on by the vacuum of Bangar's imprisonment and Smodur's death.

If it is about a truce between Aurene+Commander and Jormag+Ryland, then it will be one forced upon us by Primordus' immediate and unprepared-for rise. If this happens, it will no doubt be directly revealed in the final topic of Bangar's discussions, "Jormag's Enemy".

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:I may have misremembered which one was flying around the Mists. That does not change the situation. Unless you know of some other way to incapacitate Primordus. Jormag is still the lesser of two evils. Primordus will eventually recover, and Jormag is currently the only way to deal with them.

There are multiple reasons why Aurene would prefer working with the Frost Legion/Icebrood over Destroyers.

Assuming that Aurene and the Commander would work with either. It isn't impossible to take them both down, assuming we have a means to keep the world from dying in the process.

@"Tyson.5160" said:Given by the text of the preview, it’s clear that Primordus will be a large component of these new chapters. Seeing how Primordus was a major player in Season 3 and Jormag in IBS, we could see both dragons bite the dust and as the preview states the consequences will be felt across the sea.If by the text preview you're referring to the phrases like "to shake Tyria to its core" and "An Earth-Shattering Story Finale", I would not put much emphasis on those. Anet has used similar terminology before, and people proudly and loudly shouted out "PRIMORDUS IS COMING!" but it was just about something else. Like Scarlet's reveal during Clockwork Chaos being preluded with a message talking about fire and destruction, or tremors being felt just being about Mordremoth.

I do think that Primordus can - and likely will - get involved in the remaining four episodes, but I wouldn't take the phrasing as hints to such, per se.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:But I feel these threats, and the next one to die if that happened, would be Primordus. He has the reach to do global incursions. Jormag is in the far north.

Jormag is traveling throughout Tyria, as you established earlier with Aurene's comment.

During global faction mobilization events, players can pitch in to train, rally, and build trust with factions both familiar and
unlikely.
You’ll be rewarded for your efforts, and your allies will begin randomly appearing in Dragon Response Missions to lend their special strengths to the fight.

Befriending the Frost Legion sounds weird. But I could see Ryland leading them against Primordus.

The new incursions could also be from the water dragon. Which ice would also help with.They've used similar terminology about "unlikely allies" before. They used it in Season 1 to refer to the biconics. They used it in HoT to refer to the hylek and exalted. They even used it in Season 4 to refer to the Awakened.

I wouldn't think Frost Legion from that. It could be literally anyone. Like dredge, grawl, or jotun.

While it is very unlikely, I do hope that the incursions aren't bound to a singular minion type. It would be awesome if they included some in old maps with Risen, Mordrem, and Branded - either as "old timeline events" or as "remnant minions" (e.g., unchained).

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:While it is very unlikely, I do hope that the incursions aren't bound to a singular minion type. It would be awesome if they included some in old maps with Risen, Mordrem, and Branded - either as "old timeline events" or as "remnant minions" (e.g., unchained).I would like to see this too.

Game scale asaide and all, Orr was huge, an entire nation, there should still be tons of Risen there that would crawl out under the leadership of some powerful Zhaitan minions. Same thing with the Branded, and Mordrem. And even if Primordus is asleep, the Destroyers could also start rising up to try to find more magical energy to feed to their master to try to reawaken him.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:Truce so soon after the events of last episode would jarring. Plus a truce with a Dragon known to manipulate would just be foolish.

My first thought is that the Truce isn't with Jormag, but with Dominion remnants. A true end to the Civil War and all conflicts with the charr (e.g., human-charr conflict), ushering in a new era of peace for charrkind under a new form of leadership brought on by the vacuum of Bangar's imprisonment and Smodur's death.

If it is about a truce between Aurene+Commander and Jormag+Ryland, then it will be one forced upon us by Primordus' immediate and unprepared-for rise. If this happens, it will no doubt be directly revealed in the final topic of Bangar's discussions, "Jormag's Enemy".

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:I may have misremembered which one was flying around the Mists. That does not change the situation. Unless you know of some other way to incapacitate Primordus. Jormag is still the lesser of two evils. Primordus will eventually recover, and Jormag is currently the only way to deal with them.

There are multiple reasons why Aurene would prefer working with the Frost Legion/Icebrood over Destroyers.

Assuming that Aurene and the Commander would work with either. It isn't impossible to take them both down, assuming we have a means to keep the world from dying in the process.

@"Tyson.5160" said:Given by the text of the preview, it’s clear that Primordus will be a large component of these new chapters. Seeing how Primordus was a major player in Season 3 and Jormag in IBS, we could see both dragons bite the dust and as the preview states the consequences will be felt across the sea.If by the text preview you're referring to the phrases like "to shake Tyria to its core" and "An Earth-Shattering Story Finale", I would not put much emphasis on those. Anet has used similar terminology before, and people proudly and loudly shouted out "PRIMORDUS IS COMING!" but it was just about something else. Like Scarlet's reveal during Clockwork Chaos being preluded with a message talking about fire and destruction, or tremors being felt just being about Mordremoth.

I do think that Primordus can - and likely will - get involved in the remaining four episodes, but I wouldn't take the phrasing as hints to such, per se.

They use a couple phrases in the text. The shake to the core, Earth Shattering Finale, as you mentioned as well as use words like:“Dragon minion incursions have thrown once-peaceful lands into chaos, and there’s no predicting where the next attack will erupt.” as well as “an enemy driven only by destruction” is a little more telling that we will be dealing with Destroyers erupting from these areas.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:But I feel these threats, and the next one to die if that happened, would be Primordus. He has the reach to do global incursions. Jormag is in the far north.

Jormag is traveling throughout Tyria, as you established earlier with Aurene's comment.

Yes. I meant in terms of a physical reach. Not necessarily teleportation via mist portals. There is way more rock than ice on Tyria. And tectonic action, or another supervolcano, poses a larger threat than the icebergs moving again.

Primordus will probably be portrayed as the "bigger & badder" dragon, with mindless minions that can't be reasoned with.

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@Tyson.5160 said:They use a couple phrases in the text. The shake to the core, Earth Shattering Finale, as you mentioned as well as use words like:“Dragon minion incursions have thrown once-peaceful lands into chaos, and there’s no predicting where the next attack will erupt.” as well as “an enemy driven only by destruction” is a little more telling that we will be dealing with Destroyers erupting from these areas.Or, you know, Jormag had admitted that Ryland is building him an army, and now Jormag and his minions can travel anywhere via the Mists they can pop up anywhere, at any time.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:While it is very unlikely, I do hope that the incursions aren't bound to a singular minion type. It would be awesome if they included some in old maps with Risen, Mordrem, and Branded - either as "old timeline events" or as "remnant minions" (e.g., unchained).I would like to see this too.

Game scale asaide and all, Orr was huge, an entire nation, there should still be tons of Risen there that would crawl out under the leadership of some powerful Zhaitan minions. Same thing with the Branded, and Mordrem. And even if Primordus is asleep, the Destroyers could also start rising up to try to find more magical energy to feed to their master to try to reawaken him.There shouldn't be many branded left, certainly not powerful ones, so those are the ones I'm least expectant to see. Bound by Blood had a heavy focus on denoting Aurene cleaning up the damage Kralkatorrik caused - namely the Dragonbrand and the Branded - to the point where Bangar could proclaim that one siege devourer as "the very last branded" (even though we know it was false, the fact he could make the claim meant that Aurene and others have wiped out at least 90% of all branded since War Eternal's ending).

But Risen and Mordrem, on the other hand, were actively established as still being issues. So it'd be nice to see some incursions being such even if most will be destroyers (given the wording subtext).

@"Tyson.5160" said:They use a couple phrases in the text. The shake to the core, Earth Shattering Finale, as you mentioned as well as use words like:“Dragon minion incursions have thrown once-peaceful lands into chaos, and there’s no predicting where the next attack will erupt.” as well as “an enemy driven only by destruction” is a little more telling that we will be dealing with Destroyers erupting from these areas.The subtext can definitely be interpreted there. But as I've said, people have seen subtext that didn't actually exist before many, many, many times.

I feel at least 85% confident that Primordus will be awake and active by the end of Episode 5 / Champions Chapter 1, but there's still a chance it won't be.

Makes me wonder if the "unlikely allies" mentioned are tengu, given they dealt with destroyers in the past.

And if the incursions are primarily/solely destroyers, they really need to ensure having more than four models (or eight, if we're counting the S3 reskins as separate). Hopefully it won't just be "the original 3 destroyers plus the four S3 reskins plus the six Stone Summit psuedo-destoryer enemies)

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:But I feel these threats, and the next one to die if that happened, would be Primordus. He has the reach to do global incursions. Jormag is in the far north.Jormag is traveling throughout Tyria, as you established earlier with Aurene's comment.Yes. I meant in terms of a physical reach. Not necessarily teleportation via mist portals. There is way more rock than ice on Tyria. And tectonic action, or another supervolcano, poses a larger threat than the icebergs moving again.

Primordus will probably be portrayed as the "bigger & badder" dragon, with mindless minions that can't be reasoned with.

Icebrood don't need ice to exist. We already got icebrood in Metrica Province, for example. Thanks to the Inquest. And Jormag isn't restricted to things like moving icebergs - they shattered the 10,000 foot tall shiverpeaks to below sea level when moving south, after all.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Icebrood don't need ice to exist. We already got icebrood in Metrica Province, for example. Thanks to the Inquest. And Jormag isn't restricted to things like moving icebergs - they shattered the 10,000 foot tall shiverpeaks to below sea level when moving south, after all.

They don't. But I don't see them being able to force the entire planet into an ice age. The flooding is localized to the north and doing more of it benefits the deep sea dragon more than it does Jormag.

Besides how many factors of magnitude larger is Primordus than Jormag? Its head is larger than their entire body.

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@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:They don't. But I don't see them being able to force their entire planet into an ice age, and the flooding is localized to the north.And how many factors of magnitude larger is Primordus than Jormag? Its head larger than their entire body. There is no comparisonPeople shouldn't take the Primordus head size too seriously. They changed Kralkatorrik's size like 5 times from PoF to War Eternal. Primordus' head was made the size it was for whatever "awe" factor they wanted when you saw it. They will change it 5 times before we kill him for whatever scale they need it to be in whatever instances we see him later.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:They don't. But I don't see them being able to force their entire planet into an ice age, and the flooding is localized to the north.And how many factors of magnitude larger is Primordus than Jormag? Its head larger than their entire body. There is no comparisonPeople shouldn't take the Primordus head size too seriously. They changed Kralkatorrik's size like 5 times from PoF to War Eternal. Primordus' head was made the size it was for whatever "awe" factor they wanted when you saw it. They will change it 5 times before we kill him for whatever scale they need it to be in whatever instances we see him later.

It's not only a question of their physical sizes but the domains they influence. Tectonic action will always beat ice and crumbling individual mountain ranges.Endless clones vs slow persuasion. I wouldn't say Jormag was the weakest dragon before Aurene but Primordus is definitely on another level. Speed, size, etc.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:They use a couple phrases in the text. The shake to the core, Earth Shattering Finale, as you mentioned as well as use words like:“Dragon minion incursions have thrown once-peaceful lands into chaos, and there’s no predicting where the next attack will erupt.” as well as “an enemy driven only by destruction” is a little more telling that we will be dealing with Destroyers erupting from these areas.Or, you know, Jormag had admitted that Ryland is building him an army, and now Jormag and his minions can travel anywhere via the Mists they can pop up anywhere, at any time.

Sure, but they are talking about an enemy driven only by destruction. Even Aurene advised that Jormag is just moving through the mists and not destroying anything. This seems to indicated that the enemy driven only by destruction is, you know, Destroyers...

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

I feel at least 85% confident that Primordus will be awake and active by the end of Episode 5 / Champions Chapter 1, but there's still a chance it won't be.

Makes me wonder if the "unlikely allies" mentioned are tengu, given they dealt with destroyers in the past.

And if the incursions are primarily/solely destroyers, they really need to ensure having more than four models (or eight, if we're counting the S3 reskins as separate). Hopefully it won't just be "the original 3 destroyers plus the four S3 reskins plus the six Stone Summit psuedo-destoryer enemies)

I wondered this too, unless they are leaving the destroyers alone because they plan to have every dragon domain displayed with destroyers eventually. Purple, blue, etc. That’s if Primordus survives the saga.

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Maybe Truce is between Jormag and Primordus. They seemed to have fought in the past, so the formation of a truce is cessation of this past conflict. Jormag has mentioned Ryland's tactics, so they might be doing some fighting between the episodes and slowly turning Primordus forces back to the point of negotiation a truce. The dragons know they are each other's weakness, so it is possible that neither knows they can actually win in a final fight, so they agree to avoid asking that question in the first place. They will no longer fight each other and split control of land/magic/minions, as long as Primordus doesn't attack Jormag's army and instead focuses on terrorizing those that resist Jormag's influence.

Jormag normally uses carrots to lure followers, but a big stick in the form of another dragon melting your face off could boost recruitment even more. Primordus doesn't seem to have interest in fleshy followers, so it is ok with whoever it displaces being served to Jormag.

And the use of Champions (plural) is somewhat concerning. The term champion in the recent story has mostly been to referencing a dragon's champion. I am skeptical that they will re-use it in a different way at this point. I forget where the idea of "one champion" comes from, or is it just one of Bangar's misguided propaganda points? Anyways, will the Icebrood have multiple champions? Perhaps Ryland is able to convince Jormag to create a 'warband' of peers for him, because his efforts have shown to Jormag, the effectiveness of having a team of powerful leaders over a single champion.

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