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Why SnowCrows is destroying Raiding


Blumpf.2518

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:

  • 33% comes from stats
  • 33% comes from boons
  • 33% comes from traits, skills and executing an ideal rotationok, I have bigger stats, same boons, and get 4-5 x less dps .. it is not - 33%

All this shows is you lack understanding of how to create and execute a well thought-out build which goal it would be to do damage.what it is "understanding" ? I read traits, translate that thay do, and make my build. I take sword damage increased trait .. and all that "sound" dps good.So traits "lie" ? some of them not realy good ? (this is ritorical question)

Please don't strawman. I never said SC = player skill.but you agree that a lot of ways do failed biuld from "looks good items" ?

No, that's what YOU like about MMORPG. It is present in most other MMORPGs in form of continuous gear scaling. Maybe you should give one of the other MMORPGs a try where you can simply keep getting better gear to make content irrelevant.yes, I do it time to time. It give me experience to compare and see gw2 issues.

You have a lot of other MMORPGs which are just that: gear dependent.we already have gear dependent game - this is guildwars2. But on some parts is not enough gear depended.

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@lare.5129 said:

  • 33% comes from stats
  • 33% comes from boons
  • 33% comes from traits, skills and executing an ideal rotationok, I have bigger stats, same boons, and get
    4-5 x
    less dps .. it is not
    -
    33%

Yes, your build and rotation are shit.

I've run the test on daredevil, with 0 gear, without boons, no traits, with only autoattack, then slowing adding every element to the performance and noting the resulting dps. Within a similar build, the execution made up around 30% of the damage (actually it was 20-25% because DD dps is highly auto attack dependant).

In this case your disparity is literally: shit build and execution.

@lare.5129 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:All this shows is you lack understanding of how to create and execute a well thought-out build which goal it would be to do damage.what it is "understanding" ? I read traits, translate that thay do, and make my build. I take sword damage increased trait .. and all that "sound" dps good.So traits "lie" ? some of them not realy good ? (this is ritorical question)

There are 3 factors for performance output:

  • gear
  • boons
  • build and rotation

Which other explanation do you want to hear if 2 of those are similar? If your build and rotation are causing a 4-5x disparity, the only explantion I can give you without sugar coating it is: you are not in any way good at making builds and playing them.

Understanding traits is not about only reading them and assuming what is good. Is it literally about KNOWING what is good, via test and experience, then building on that knowledge foundation. You obviously lack this experience and understanding, as do many others, hence why it is useful to read up on builds from more experienced players.

Or invest the time at practice, changes, trial and error to come to a similar conclusion. That's how "pro" players create their builds. That's how off meta players like Kitty come up with builds.

Not even going to get into the issue of knowing which weapons are good for dps and which are not. Hint: sword on thief is NOT a dps weapons.

@lare.5129 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Please don't strawman. I never said SC = player skill.but you agree that a lot of ways do failed biuld from "looks good items" ?

No, that's what YOU like about MMORPG. It is present in most other MMORPGs in form of continuous gear scaling. Maybe you should give one of the other MMORPGs a try where you can simply keep getting better gear to make content irrelevant.yes, I do it time to time. It give me experience to compare and see gw2 issues.

You have a lot of other MMORPGs which are just that: gear dependent.we already have gear dependent game - this is guildwars2. But on some parts is not enough gear depended.

I believe a lot of players would disagree here, but there is no point in discussing this further.

EDIT:Just as a small thing to think about: if the disparity between a bad build and a high performance build is 4-5x right now (it's actually far more because the synergy within traits, skills, runes, etc is vast), what will happen if reliance on gear is increased? Either you make build and execution decision less influential, which would require massive reworks in all areas of this games combat, or in the other situation if your build is carried via gear to bridge that disparity, what happens to the high performance build?

Your "bad" build goes from 8k to 32k performance output (that's when multiplying it by 4) and the high performance build goes from 32k to 128k. You now either make content meaningless for even remotely skilled players, or you have to introduce gear tiers which are mandatory and design content around players getting these new gear tiers, which goes directly against this games basic design of getting into content fast without to much of a gear grind.

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@lare.5129 said:

  • 33% comes from stats
  • 33% comes from boons
  • 33% comes from traits, skills and executing an ideal rotationok, I have bigger stats, same boons, and get
    4-5 x
    less dps .. it is not
    -
    33%

What are you even arguing here? How can you try to claim that gear doesn't affect dps while you base it by comparing your randomized garbage build+rotation to proper/currently top builds+rotations?

Get any build and rotation, check the dps with ascended items. Then get the same build and rotation and check the dps while using lower grade gear. That's not even anything that should be tested to understand in the first place, but... uh...

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@"Sobx.1758" said:Then get the same build and rotationno no .. I read read trait, it increase sword damage, take it, ant press button how I think, how it looks good, (ofc it not good) is same zerk biuld .. And have different numbers than thief wiht staff and another traits and rotation. I that difference is call "meta". It is SC destroying raids, or some raid mechanic not ready for that - is another part of story,,But what I see, and whit that can I agree - that raid is not ready for non-SC roleplay biulds.

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@lare.5129 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Then get
the same build and rotation
no no .. I read read trait, it increase sword damage, take it, ant press button how I think, how it looks good, (ofc it not good) is same zerk biuld .. And have different numbers than thief wiht staff and another traits and rotation. I that difference is call "meta". It is SC destroying raids, or some raid mechanic not ready for that - is another part of story,,But what I see, and whit that can I agree - that raid is not ready for non-SC roleplay biulds.

You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Linken.6345 said:You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

As a hand kiter at deimos? You could do it now and it would probably work perfectly fine.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Linken.6345 said:You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

As a hand kiter at deimos? You could do it now and it would probably work perfectly fine.

Too much toughness, not even a minstrel tank could take aggro from that.

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@Aceofsppades.6873 said:

@Linken.6345 said:You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

As a hand kiter at deimos? You could do it now and it would probably work perfectly fine.

Too much toughness, not even a minstrel tank could take aggro from that.Fair enough ;)
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you can claim that there is enough dps to take more healing and stuff and this week we got one from lfg, he did survive gorseval but iff all dps would have perform as good as him we would have been better off running a group full of boon chrono and alac... and if all dps/boon were doing 4780dps i doubt 4 updraft would have been enough to kill gorse...

DPS part of the log (name/account removed): https://imgur.com/HVJ1Qpwit's also to avoid that issue that people ask for li/kp

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@Aceofsppades.6873 said:

@Linken.6345 said:You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

As a hand kiter at deimos? You could do it now and it would probably work perfectly fine.

Too much toughness, not even a minstrel tank could take aggro from that.

Maybe take a nomads gear tank with thougness infusions. :p

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@yann.1946 said:

@Linken.6345 said:You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

As a hand kiter at deimos? You could do it now and it would probably work perfectly fine.

Too much toughness, not even a minstrel tank could take aggro from that.

Maybe take a nomads gear tank with thougness infusions. :p

no, infusion + food doesn't compensate the pet + stone signet he is also running. just let him tank and lfg a hk that know how to dodge every 7sec

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@Fangoth.4503 said:

@Linken.6345 said:You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

As a hand kiter at deimos? You could do it now and it would probably work perfectly fine.

Too much toughness, not even a minstrel tank could take aggro from that.

Maybe take a nomads gear tank with thougness infusions. :p

no, infusion + food doesn't compensate the pet + stone signet he is also running. just let him tank and lfg a hk that know how to dodge every 7sec

fair, one day we'll make a nomads bearbow ranger good. :p

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Meta is meta unless you or your group are unable to execute it at which point is becomes non-meta for you or your group.

If a group runs a meta layout and fails consistently, then that layout is by default not meta for that group. If said group changes their layout to an 'off-meta' layout and successfully completes a run without issue and in a timely manner, then they have found the meta for their group.

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@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:Meta is meta unless you or your group are unable to execute it at which point is becomes non-meta for you or your group.

If a group runs a meta layout and fails consistently, then that layout is by default not meta for that group. If said group changes their layout to an 'off-meta' layout and successfully completes a run without issue and in a timely manner, then they have found the meta for their group.

Hum i understand what you meant, but i don't think the definition of meta is scopping the user ability to use the most effiency tactical available, the question is, the "available" concern the user or the whole system... i guess i'm just going to much in definition xD

Anyway yes, meta build are often not for newbie as they sacrifice everything they can to be more effiency in their role.But SC have ton of off-meta build, or to be more accurate, they have every meta build of each exisiting viable build, want to play power or condi tempest, you have the meta build for the two, even if they are not meta, they are the best as the best power tempest build to do damage and the best condi tempest to do damage. SC basicly give that to and meta teamcompo for each boss, so there is a ton of offmeta build on SC.

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@WindBlade.8749 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:Meta is meta unless you or your group are unable to execute it at which point is becomes non-meta for you or your group.

If a group runs a meta layout and fails consistently, then that layout is by default not meta for that group. If said group changes their layout to an 'off-meta' layout and successfully completes a run without issue and in a timely manner, then they have found the meta for their group.

Hum i understand what you meant, but i don't think the definition of meta is scopping the user ability to use the most effiency tactical available, the question is, the "available" concern the user or the whole system... i guess i'm just going to much in definition xD

Anyway yes, meta build are often not for newbie as they sacrifice everything they can to be more effiency in their role.But SC have ton of off-meta build, or to be more accurate, they have every meta build of each exisiting viable build, want to play power or condi tempest, you have the meta build for the two, even if they are not meta, they are the best as the best power tempest build to do damage and the best condi tempest to do damage. SC basicly give that to and meta teamcompo for each boss, so there is a ton of offmeta build on SC.

My point is less about Snowcrow and more about what is 'meta' and people's insistence on others running what they deem is meta rather than that person running what is most effective for them. Some warriors truly need double EP to function for instance. Some don't. But the ones that do should need it should keep carrying double EP until they get better. After all dead DPS is 0 dps.

SC and Discretize have GREAT resources for the builds that their guilds found to be meta for THEM. Ditto for Metabattle for the twitch streamers. These are great resources to go to for a first cut on someone's build. But the community itself needs to come to terms with the fact that Meta is relative to the ability of the people running it. What should be emphasized more is general build crafting and class knowledge relative to the mechanics to be encountered.

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Wow, thats a load of nonsense to say the least. It's not snowcrows fault that you don't understand your build and are incapable of adjusting to situations. They have no obligation either to change their builds and stuff to carry you. Also it's by far not as dramatic as you make it sound, all people make mistakes, and unless theres a ton of it, it's not a big deal either, if you make too many, perhaps you should practice and learn the encounter instead of blaming others. Take some responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming a guild that provides free knowledge and suggestions for people.The real thing killing raids are many people in and around the scene. Trying to force their expectations onto each other.

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@lare.5129 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Then get
the same build and rotation
no no .. I read read trait, it increase sword damage, take it, ant press button how I think, how it looks good, (ofc it not good) is same zerk biuld .. And have different numbers than thief wiht staff and another traits and rotation. I that difference is call "meta". It is SC destroying raids, or some raid mechanic not ready for that - is another part of story,,But what I see, and whit that can I agree - that raid is not ready for non-SC roleplay biulds.

No, no, the point here is that you don't understand how to compare builds OR gear. If you're arguing that build 123-123-123 won't have the same dps as 312-312-312 or weapon "X" doesn't do the same thing that weapon "Y" then that's just expected and normal. That's, like, literally the point of having multiple builds/traits/weapons/skills available in the game: them being different and excelling in different situations depending on what you want to do with them.And you don't need top builds with top dps (a.k.a "SC builds") to easly complete the raids. This has been discussed on multiple occasions already.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Meta is meta unless you or your group are unable to execute it at which point is becomes non-meta for you or your group.

If a group runs a meta layout and fails consistently, then that layout is by default not meta for that group. If said group changes their layout to an 'off-meta' layout and successfully completes a run without issue and in a timely manner, then they have found the meta for their group.

Hum i understand what you meant, but i don't think the definition of meta is scopping the user ability to use the most effiency tactical available, the question is, the "available" concern the user or the whole system... i guess i'm just going to much in definition xD

Anyway yes, meta build are often not for newbie as they sacrifice everything they can to be more effiency in their role.But SC have ton of off-meta build, or to be more accurate, they have every meta build of each exisiting viable build, want to play power or condi tempest, you have the meta build for the two, even if they are not meta, they are the best as the best power tempest build to do damage and the best condi tempest to do damage. SC basicly give that to and meta teamcompo for each boss, so there is a ton of offmeta build on SC.

My point is less about Snowcrow and more about what is 'meta' and people's insistence on others running what they deem is meta rather than that person running what is most effective for them. Some warriors truly need double EP to function for instance. Some don't. But the ones that do should need it should keep carrying double EP until they get better. After all dead DPS is 0 dps.

SC and Discretize have GREAT resources for the builds that their guilds found to be meta for THEM. Ditto for Metabattle for the twitch streamers. These are great resources to go to for a first cut on someone's build. But the community itself needs to come to terms with the fact that Meta is relative to the ability of the people running it. What should be emphasized more is general build crafting and class knowledge relative to the mechanics to be encountered.

yea i know and i'm also at this opinion, just speaking about the definition usage of meta.

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If you have good sites like Snow Crows and you are not using them, you are already handicapping yourself for nothing. Raids are EXTREMELY trivial and have no actually hard content once you've cleared them once or twice.

If you refuse to use the tools available to you, don't complain about them. You don't have to. Just acknowledge your decision. ??????

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@"Janitsu.6284" said:Raids are EXTREMELY trivial and have no actually hard content once you've cleared them once or twice.For a lot of people it's more than just once or twice. Also, the key problem lies in the part "once you've cleared".Yes, obviously raids become easy once you have got to the point when they're easy. The issue lies in what happens before you get to that point.

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The problems are in the one size fits all raid design. Not everyone wants to engage with the game in the same way. The people who want crushing miserable instant death mechanics and bleeding edge DPS checks deserve to have them. That is what Anet's raid design has leaned towards for years. But, they also have a lot of concessions sprinkled in there to shut those of us up who desperately want a more casual raiding experience. Those concessions suck in the context of a difficulty forward progression raiding system. Since we only have one difficulty, no one can be happy and no one can enjoy the content to it's fullest. The way raiding is right now makes me really angry. It has kept me from enjoying GW2 since HoT. I love the game and it means a lot to me, but to me there's this hideous stain on it that just will not come out. Raids are just way too hard for me and there's so much content locked out of reach. I would really like to just play it without being saddled with all this garbage of builds off the website and 25 acronyms that mean something slightly different to every raid leader. Split raids into 3 difficulties, a normal version that is tuned for accessibility, a legendary version that is the current version, and a nightmare version to challenge people unhappy with the concessions in the current version. Change the achievements that need to be gatekept away from casuals for whatever reason to be for legendary or higher, and add some weekly or daily motivators to get people checking out the introductory raid mode. You can shout me down and pick my opinion apart all day if that makes you happy, but I don't have the same perspective as you and I am not trying to invalidate your perspective. I am simply trying to express my perspective and what has soured GW2 for me the worst for the longest. You explaining to me how raiding is easy and I just need to do X Y and Z to enjoy it isn't going to change my perspective.

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