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Epidemic of rangers and thieves in WvW


manu.7539

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@kash.9213 said:

What proliferation? Seems about the same amount of thieves and rangers out there as any other time. Rangers seem effective against thieves for the same reason everyone else is and that's mostly because thieves are telegraphed (their stealth telegraphs them also). We want to target the ones who looks like they might go down to an opener and probably didn't get a seat on the squad bus for buffs.

I dont have stats about how much every class are used, I dont know if it exist. I play 5-6+ hours EVERY day, I assume that very few players play that much so I honestly think you guys arent playing enough or roaming enough to see the game the way I do. So if you mostly zerging and play 10-20 hours a week you are probably honest with your statements but not necessary accurate!

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Just an average day on Maguuma.

dFNmXCr.jpgIf these are all not melee immob beasts, but pew pew, I don't want to be in that frontline (reflects). Poor reapers....

If they are immob beasts... yeah that's exactly what's currently wrong with large scale wvw. Immob spam from rangers for days. If you lose connection to the cleanse blob for one second, you die, because instant 10 second immob + cover conditions.

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@KrHome.1920 said:If these are all not melee immob beasts, but pew pew, I don't want to be in that frontline (reflects). Poor reapers....

If they are immob beasts... yeah that's exactly what's currently wrong with large scale wvw. Immob spam from rangers for days. If you lose connection to the cleanse blob for one second, you die, because instant 10 second immob + cover conditions.

It's pew pew. Mag has a lot of Ranger mains, and I'm certain the server is an outlier. I have an alt on Anvil Rock and I can feel the difference when against Mag. It's an easy class to cloud with and that's something the server does often, especially in EBG.

For the record though, that's the most Rangers I've seen in a squad for quite some time, not that they aren't often present but without a squad however. I just had to screencap it because it made me lol.

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@KrHome.1920 said:If these are all not melee immob beasts, but pew pew, I don't want to be in that frontline (reflects). Poor reapers....

If they are immob beasts... yeah that's exactly what's currently wrong with large scale wvw. Immob spam from rangers for days. If you lose connection to the cleanse blob for one second, you die, because instant 10 second immob + cover conditions.

It's pew pew. Mag has a
lot
of Ranger mains, and I'm certain the server is an outlier. I have an alt on Anvil Rock and I can feel the difference when against Mag. It's an easy class to cloud with and that's something the server does often, especially in EBG.

For the record though, that's the most Rangers I've seen in a squad for quite some time, not that they aren't often present but without a squad however. I just had to screencap it because it made me lol.If they were bunker immobbeasts this comp would actually work against most pugs. Pin the pug down with the bunkers and send the glass reapers in.

But yes, clouding with longbow burstbeast is the easiest thing you can do, if you are a skill clicker. It wouldn't even cause collateral reflect damage.

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@manu.7539 said:

What proliferation? Seems about the same amount of thieves and rangers out there as any other time. Rangers seem effective against thieves for the same reason everyone else is and that's mostly because thieves are telegraphed (their stealth telegraphs them also). We want to target the ones who looks like they might go down to an opener and probably didn't get a seat on the squad bus for buffs.

I dont have stats about how much every class are used, I dont know if it exist. I play 5-6+ hours EVERY day, I assume that very few players play that much so I honestly think you guys arent playing enough or roaming enough to see the game the way I do. So if you mostly zerging and play 10-20 hours a week you are probably honest with your statements but not necessary accurate!

Or you're remembering what you want to remember. Or of course, everyone isn't playing as much as you and never step out side of safe zergs to see the game through your brave eyes.

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You don't get to run a glassy/zerg build, get picked off by the two classes that are least represented in the wvw meta and are designed almost exclusively around high burst single target damage, then whine about it on the wvw subforum.At least you don't get to do that and have anyone take you seriously.

This thread would be somewhat relevant in the pvp subforum. Of course folks over there are too busy whining about rangers being bad players and thieves busy decapping/not being part of team fights being the reason teams lose matches.

With all of the guardians and scrappers running around cleansing/converting conditions, if you die to immobs its because you were away from your support or your support isn't doing their job. Work on your own positioning, stay with the tag, you won't get picked.

Also Epidemic is garbage these days.

~ Kovu

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

For the record though, that's the most Rangers I've seen in a squad for quite some time, not that they aren't often present but without a squad however. I just had to screencap it because it made me lol.

Well, you also said "Just an average day on Maguuma" in your 1st comment so.. say whatever you want that please you now I have serious doubts about your good faith in this discussion!

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I main both Sw/D and Sc/F Weaver. Rangers and Thieves are trouble to Ele, but it makes sense. Rangers are great at keeping you at a distance, Sword Weaver has pitiful range and poor gap closers whereas Rangers have good mobility and stealth options. Getting pew pew'd at a distance is frustrating, but you have plenty of ways to avoid the damage. ToF, Earth 2, Water 2, Air 5, Dodge. (EDIT: Not to mention the Barrier base skills as well.) Barrage is a one trick, bait it out and dodge/evade through it (probably should try and wait for the knock back move if they haven't used it yet) then move in. If you are unable to get close, you really need to LoS them right away because LB Rangers will kill you if you aren't in their face.

Thiefs are another issue. Deadeyes have the advantage against Sword Weavers, range burst + stealth = bad match up for Weaver, best advice is to just run if you can't handle the range pressure. IF you're fighting Core or Daredevil, its really just a battle to see CC them at the right time. A good thief will be able to out kite you as a Sword Weaver without much effort and will normally die if they over extend the battle. But as a Weaver you have plenty of CC to catch thieves in, just save you Pyro Vortex , Flame Uprising, Cauterizing Strike (if you run condi) or Quantum Strike (if you're power-based) for when you catch 'em. Usually that will melt away glass thieves, and glass thieves are the ones that will really pose a danger to Sword Weavers. If they're not glassy, you really shouldn't be taking too much damage.

Consider using Focus if projectiles are really an issue. Focus is a lot better than Ele's give it credit for in WvW. I just don't use it because I love Riding that Lightening.

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@fuzzyp.6295 said:I main both Sw/D and Sc/F Weaver. Rangers and Thieves are trouble to Ele, but it makes sense. Rangers are great at keeping you at a distance, Sword Weaver has pitiful range and poor gap closers whereas Rangers have good mobility and stealth options. Getting pew pew'd at a distance is frustrating, but you have plenty of ways to avoid the damage. ToF, Earth 2, Water 2, Air 5, Dodge. (EDIT: Not to mention the Barrier base skills as well.) Barrage is a one trick, bait it out and dodge/evade through it (probably should try and wait for the knock back move if they haven't used it yet) then move in. If you are unable to get close, you really need to LoS them right away because LB Rangers will kill you if you aren't in their face.

Thiefs are another issue. Deadeyes have the advantage against Sword Weavers, range burst + stealth = bad match up for Weaver, best advice is to just run if you can't handle the range pressure. IF you're fighting Core or Daredevil, its really just a battle to see CC them at the right time. A good thief will be able to out kite you as a Sword Weaver without much effort and will normally die if they over extend the battle. But as a Weaver you have plenty of CC to catch thieves in, just save you Pyro Vortex , Flame Uprising, Cauterizing Strike (if you run condi) or Quantum Strike (if you're power-based) for when you catch 'em. Usually that will melt away glass thieves, and glass thieves are the ones that will really pose a danger to Sword Weavers. If they're not glassy, you really shouldn't be taking too much damage.

Consider using Focus if projectiles are really an issue. Focus is a lot better than Ele's give it credit for in WvW. I just don't use it because I love Riding that Lightening.

I'm not complaing about eles or espacially sw/d weaver, its great and I love it! Decent sustain, decent damage and nice mobility, cant ask much more except maybe getting back some of the stab that I use to have with my stances then it would be perfect! I can live without stab to be honest but so many cc's and condi condi builds these days without stab its challenging and well challenge is an ele thing for sure, you got to love it if you play ele! ;)

We're just out of the subject I wanted to talk (again), mostly had opposite statement of mine but good faith is a rarity is this world!

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OP, I find both classes annoying and unfun to play and play against too since they are so predictably boring. I solo roam as a weaver / dps tempest in WvW, and honestly, thieves and rangers are not a problem to me. 90% of them melt in seconds. If you are killed by thieves and rangers that easily, maybe you should look at the way you play or adjust your build? Just saying.

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when the arenas-pvp have to many bots , pvpers come to wvw for more fun...thiefs and rangers, mesmers and eles fresh air, are many on wvw and is ok for me, because the roaming is better and we are more people at battlegrounds for now.All these are pvp classes , dont blame them man , they cant take an invite in squad.If you are in a squad they cant come close and bit you.If you are not in a squad, pick a some pvp serius siht and just do it man.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Just an average day on Maguuma.

dFNmXCr.jpg

If these are all not melee immob beasts, but pew pew, I don't want to be in that frontline (reflects). Poor reapers....

If they are immob beasts... yeah that's exactly what's currently wrong with large scale wvw. Immob spam from rangers for days. If you lose connection to the cleanse blob for one second, you die, because instant 10 second immob + cover conditions.

I also logged in and saw a comm tag on. Decided to join and then saw this...JJIJBxV.jpg

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@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Just an average day on Maguuma.

dFNmXCr.jpg

If these are all not melee immob beasts, but pew pew, I don't want to be in that frontline (reflects). Poor reapers....

If they are immob beasts... yeah that's exactly what's currently wrong with large scale wvw. Immob spam from rangers for days. If you lose connection to the cleanse blob for one second, you die, because instant 10 second immob + cover conditions.

I also logged in and saw a comm tag on. Decided to join and then saw this...
JJIJBxV.jpg
That poor firebrand.
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+10

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/110758/but-the-thief-got-away#latest

(here is a link with beautiful truth very well written post by Subversiontwo. After reading Subsversiontwo, i had deja-vu all over again during Guild Wars 2 beta-2012. I applaud Subversiontwo and many player players including ex-Veteran players who stand up for what is right and defends Truth against Lies and Deceptions)

-The Truth was told long time ago and no one listened-

-Thank You! Subversiontwo including others for keeping the Naked Truth Alive and for calling out Toxicity in its True Form-

(Quote)

'This is true, at least to some extent. The popular roaming classes all have in common that they can escape when necessary and in relation to some other classes that can be seen as an issue. However, some of that is necessary for outnumbered kiting/roaming to exist. I don't think that is the topic at hand here. The issue with the Thief isn't that it can break combat, that it can ambush or that it has unique cooldowns, teleports or stealth. The problem is the sheer volume on it on the builds now, how it combines and how they can more or less reset at will. Other popular roaming classes can't do anything even remotely similar. That is why you can now see Thieves even troll larger groups that are trying to chase/gank them because they know that they can reset at will so they can just cheekily re-engage to prove that point, over and over. It isn't even escaping anymore it's moving in and out of combat as you please.'

So, the problem isn't the escape, it's the reset. It is that they can escape and re-engage more or less infinately. It isn't that they can break combat once. It is that they can break combat over and over (yet still control the re-engagement to keep comming back for more like that). That is why so many other players now just wait for th exact moment they break combat, mount up and ride away in the other direction because it at least gives them some distance to crush and an extra health bar that forces some cooldowns and/or blunts the ambush from the Thief if it chooses to flip back on the offensive.

Mesmers do not have that, Warriors do not have that, Rangers do not have that and Elementalists do not have that. Even though those classes have plenty of ports, breaks and sprints/leaps. So a Warrior may disappear in the distance with a double-sword escape, however, he is not going to turn around, slap you in the face just to flaunt what's broken and then sprint away again indefinately and with impunity. Mesmers can ambush or they can escape but it's often one of either and not a combination, certainly not a combination that persists indefinately. If you survive the first ambush and/or escape of a Mesmer they are often severely weakened if they re-engage, cooldowns burnt etc. Mesmers have traditionally also been rather poor at chasing down opponents that want to escape them (save for the time when sword-leap Mirages were OP and even condi Mirages played sword) so other players certainly don't have to wait for the Mesmer to break combat to get away from them if they want to fight to a standstill or just avoid defensive Mesmer builds like condi tanks.

So to wrap up yet another round of this silly back and forth, it's a simple balance issue with there just being too much of everything mobility related to the point where the class can engage, disengage and re-engage at will. It's the combination of that which is the problem. This wasn't an issue in vanilla and Thieves were pretty popular and powerful roamers (possibly the best/most popular) already back then. This is a severe case of elite spec and re-trait creep.

Then as always, smalle scale WvW may not be a focal point for any balance effort but there are also some things that stick out so much that it just becomes ridiculous. It was ridiculous when you had 36/50 Scourges in large scale and the profileration of Thieves at small scale which has gone on for quite some time is definately starting to become quite ridiculous now and is starting to have a rather negative impact on the mode overall. It isn't isolated to some corpserunner getting ganked or some duelist being frustrated by a dishonorable reset anymore.'

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@anduriell.6280 said:I think in NA the WvW scene is very degraded.

Come to EU, we still have some commanders who run propper squads at least in a couple of servers. I think you will appreciate the change for good.

They're complaining about one server that does things differently. NA is still 11/12 traditional stack and spam, AoE cap exploiting meta.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Just an average day on Maguuma.

dFNmXCr.jpg

If these are all not melee immob beasts, but pew pew, I don't want to be in that frontline (reflects). Poor reapers....

If they are immob beasts... yeah that's exactly what's currently wrong with large scale wvw. Immob spam from rangers for days. If you lose connection to the cleanse blob for one second, you die, because instant 10 second immob + cover conditions.

Reflect isnt a boon that can be stacked ad spamed so 99% of the guardians/fb's wont even use it... :dizzy:

Know how to rotate a simple WoR to avoid spikes ... that's 2025 meta, besides WvW is boon spam and aoe spam most of the time...any class that cant do this will fall into the non meta builds.

the Immob rangers is somethign that Anet needs to look at... thats for sure.

@LetoII.3782 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:I think in NA the WvW scene is very degraded.

Come to EU, we still have some commanders who run propper squads at least in a couple of servers. I think you will appreciate the change for good.

They're complaining about one server that does things differently. NA is still 11/12 traditional stack and spam, AoE cap exploiting meta.

If gets out of that confort zone where most of those groups only ktrain or fight smaller groups, those groups will QQ alot, or search for another gimmick stacking for performance over skill momentum.In in NA its not strange if u find 12-16 FB's in a group of 25-28, rare but still happens, there are groups that in 30ish its mostly scrappers and fb0s and then some scourges and reapers mixed.We have here even perma tempest auras lol.....

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:I think in NA the WvW scene is very degraded.

Come to EU, we still have some commanders who run propper squads at least in a couple of servers. I think you will appreciate the change for good.

They're complaining about one server that does things differently. NA is still 11/12 traditional stack and spam, AoE cap exploiting meta.

True. And it's boring as kitten.

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