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FRACTAL LEAVERS - plea to create a punish system for those who leave groups


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Not a huge fan of the entire punishment mentality in general. Humans do not respond well to any kind of punishments, improvement usually come at a very high cost. Most punishments do more harm than good. I would like to use the opposite approach and reward sticking to the team:

  • Create a buff called "Part of the Team"
  • Upon creating a party, entering the first Fractal, that buff has one stack
  • After completing a fractal, your buff stacks up
  • When you leave the party, the buff remains 10 more minutes
  • When you enter a new team, you start from scratch again - even if that team already did 3 fractals before you have joined, they continue at 3 stacks, you start a 1 stack

That buff could grant minor loot enhancements such as

  • chance for bonus Relics on kill
  • Magic Find
  • Increased gold/EXP gain

This would improve the situation, promote the idea of playing Fractals in a group for an extended time. In addition, Fractal runs outside the dailies would be promoted as well. However, thanks to our genius farmers, we have to double-check to prevent abuse of the system. Else there would be groups just grinding stacks in T1 fractals and doing their CM/T4/Rec after.

  • the buff only increases by one for each fractal of each tier, doing UB 15 times in a row would not cause 15 stacks
  • the buff should have a cap of ~ 10 stacks
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I can imagine its annoying for some people to have to re open lfg when someone leaves, but as someone who doesn't even takes T4s seriously, I find it so easy to just lfg and put "t4s dps only x and y fractal" and 4 man it while someone joins.You only need heals and quickness to do T4s, every mechanic is so irrelevant you can pretty much clear and carry everything with 3 competent people that can avoid critical attack and boss patterns.

Getting angry at people that leaves after clearing CMs or something like that is weird.

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So, let's reverse this.

Say a player joins your LFG for all fractals, you start doing all the fractals, but your group takes an hour in one of the CMs and other people keep wiping to the mechanics over and over again. Should the player who's tired of having to try to rez the people who keep going down to what should be easy-to-avoid mechanics be punished for leaving the group to find another? At what point is it no longer the person who leaves fault for leaving? How do we gauge this accurately so the least amount of innocent people are caught by this system?

EDIT:

Here's an easier solution, brought to you by ESO's Dungeon Queueing system. You Queue up with your role (Firebrand, Renegade, some flavor of DPS, etc.), Set roles you're willing to play with and the fractals you wish to do. You'll be set in a group that best matches your needs. Groups are random, you don't know who you're grouping with so it doesn't matter. If you leave, you can't queue again for 30 minutes. If you're kicked, the party can't Queue for 5 minutes (EDIT) and you can't queue for 7 minutes.

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I don't play this game like it's a job, wtf. What should I whip out my resume after joining pug groups too (not counting it as kp, just an expression)? it's not a dang job. Life happens, people have to leave groups. It sucks but it's a choice that is out of your control.

Get over it /endthread.

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The only type of "leaver" that I don't like is the type of leaver that joins a full clear group, then leaves mid-way, not because the group is performing badly, they are performing badly or any valid IRL reasons, but because they never wanted to do a full clear in the first place. A person that joins a full clear group in order to do the last fractal they are missing for the day, since they did all others, and never bothered to state it to the rest of the team. That's the ONLY time I question when someone leaves a group, and as I said earlier in this thread:

Add a way for a fractal group to see which dailies/CMs everyone in the group has already completed that day. That way if you create a group asking for Full Clear and a player joins that has already finished some of the Fractals on that day, they will be visible. So you will either start with THAT Fractal (so they repeat it first) or they can go find another group or you can simply run with them then replace them once they leave. At the very least the group will have advance notice.

This simple solution would solve the one and only "problem" with Fractal leavers. Otherwise punishing leaving a group is an absolutely terrible idea that can only backfire spectacularly if it's ever implemented.

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@"Sir Alymer.3406" said:You Queue up with your role (Firebrand, Renegade, some flavor of DPS, etc.)

This kind of suggestion has appeared a lot in the past but it has one major problem, there aren't set roles in this game like in other MMORPGs. Plus with every patch roles change, a build that was good in one role will be bad after a trait change, rune change or will simply be surpassed by a newer build. This isn't the type game where you queue as "Tank, DPS, Healer" and you are expected, based on your build, to fulfill that role, there are no guarantees.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Sir Alymer.3406" said:You Queue up with your role (Firebrand, Renegade, some flavor of DPS, etc.)

This kind of suggestion has appeared a lot in the past but it has one major problem, there aren't set roles in this game like in other MMORPGs. Plus with every patch roles change, a build that was good in one role will be bad after a trait change, rune change or will simply be surpassed by a newer build.

The hell you talking about? There are well defined roles in this game that are expected of people. There's Healer, Boon/buff support, & DPS. Think of it like a triangle where you can be any one of those three things and the closer you are to one the less you do with the others. Even in other MMOs there are updates that change what gear sets work with healer, tank, and DPS and depends entirely on your class as well.

This isn't the type game where you queue as "Tank, DPS, Healer" and you are expected, based on your build, to fulfill that role, there are no guarantees.

I think you're getting it confused. Even in ESO there are builds that have more damage and still can 'tank' or 'heal' and worse yet, people can still queue up wrong either on purpose for faster queues or on accident where they forget to switch their role before entering the queue. Either way, kicking a fake tank or fake healer (or in GW2's case, a fake boon support and fake healer) is real easy to pick out as they're not doing their job (GW2, no boons and barely any heals), and promptly get kicked. Sure you've gotta wait 5 minutes to find another person, but the jerk that got kicked has to wait 7 now.

You're also not going to make it to CMs+T4s without knowing about the meta roles for each profession in fractals.

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@Sir Alymer.3406 said:The hell you talking about? There are well defined roles in this game that are expected of people. There's Healer, Boon/buff support, & DPS. Think of it like a triangle where you can be any one of those three things and the closer you are to one the less you do with the others. Even in other MMOs there are updates that change what gear sets work with healer, tank, and DPS and depends entirely on your class as well.

There aren't defined roles in Guild Wars 2, there are defined builds, there is a vast difference here. Builds are much more restrictive here, groups are asking for a Renegade or a Firebrand, not a Healer / Boon-support. As an example, how many different builds you can say cover the Healer role in Guild Wars 2 that are completely interchangeable, meaning whichever you get, they will all perform the same?

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@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:You Queue up with your role (Firebrand, Renegade, some flavor of DPS, etc.)

This kind of suggestion has appeared a lot in the past but it has one major problem, there aren't set roles in this game like in other MMORPGs. Plus with every patch roles change, a build that was good in one role will be bad after a trait change, rune change or will simply be surpassed by a newer build.

The hell you talking about? There are well defined roles in this game that are expected of people. There's Healer, Boon/buff support, & DPS. Think of it like a triangle where you can be any one of those three things and the closer you are to one the less you do with the others. Even in other MMOs there are updates that change what gear sets work with healer, tank, and DPS and depends entirely on your class as well.

This isn't the type game where you queue as "Tank, DPS, Healer" and you are expected, based on your build, to fulfill that role, there are no guarantees.

I think you're getting it confused. Even in ESO there are builds that have more damage and still can 'tank' or 'heal' and worse yet, people can still queue up wrong either on purpose for faster queues or on accident where they forget to switch their role before entering the queue. Either way, kicking a fake tank or fake healer (or in GW2's case, a fake boon support and fake healer) is real easy to pick out as they're not doing their job (GW2, no boons and barely any heals), and promptly get kicked. Sure you've gotta wait 5 minutes to find another person, but the jerk that got kicked has to wait 7 now.

You're also not going to make it to CMs+T4s without knowing about the meta roles for each profession in fractals.

And why would he have to wait 7m he dident leave he was kicked so shouldent be punished twice.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:Add a way for a fractal group to see which dailies/CMs everyone in the group has already completed that day. That way if you create a group asking for Full Clear and a player joins that has already finished some of the Fractals on that day, they will be visible. So you will either start with THAT Fractal (so they repeat it first) or they can go find another group or you can simply run with them then replace them once they leave. At the very least the group will have advance notice.

Some things sound really good in theory until you start looking at them more.

What happens if you join group, get through some of the dailies, and then for whatever reason the group breaks up, or loses 1 person.

  • Group broke up, now you need to find a new group - but you have this giant scarlet letter over your head so no one is willing to let you join them.
  • Group lost one player, new person joins, sees you have already done some of the fractals, and leaves before they get stuck with you and end up being in the first situation...
  • Group loses one player mid run on their second fractal of the day for whatever reason. New person joins right as you get completion... and now has that giant scarlet letter over their head when they later want to get that first fractal done, having been unable to leave your group fast enough to avoid the stink...

I really don't see a problem with the current situation. And I end up in groups all the time that have already done some of the fractals I want to do... I just... easily join another group after.

Today I even started my own group that I listed as just one fractal - the one I had left, and I got a group in about 5 minutes. Felt like forever because usually I can get a group in seconds... but 5 minutes is pretty quick when you think about it and compare it to sitting in LFG as anything but a tank or healer in most other MMOs.

If any of you think finding replacements is bad here... just got play any other MMO and try to PUG in your support roles... make sure you have a second monitor going because it's Netflix time. Be it a fresh group or a replacement mid-run.

In fact FFXIV has a little thing you can check to make sure you avoid getting stuck in runs that aren't fresh, which... really sucks when you're group loses one player and all 50,000 people online at that moment have checked that 'avoid getting cooties' box...

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@Linken.6345 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:You Queue up with your role (Firebrand, Renegade, some flavor of DPS, etc.)

This kind of suggestion has appeared a lot in the past but it has one major problem, there aren't set roles in this game like in other MMORPGs. Plus with every patch roles change, a build that was good in one role will be bad after a trait change, rune change or will simply be surpassed by a newer build.

The hell you talking about? There are well defined roles in this game that are expected of people. There's Healer, Boon/buff support, & DPS. Think of it like a triangle where you can be any one of those three things and the closer you are to one the less you do with the others. Even in other MMOs there are updates that change what gear sets work with healer, tank, and DPS and depends entirely on your class as well.

This isn't the type game where you queue as "Tank, DPS, Healer" and you are expected, based on your build, to fulfill that role, there are no guarantees.

I think you're getting it confused. Even in ESO there are builds that have more damage and still can 'tank' or 'heal' and worse yet, people can still queue up wrong either on purpose for faster queues or on accident where they forget to switch their role before entering the queue. Either way, kicking a fake tank or fake healer (or in GW2's case, a fake boon support and fake healer) is real easy to pick out as they're not doing their job (GW2, no boons and barely any heals), and promptly get kicked. Sure you've gotta wait 5 minutes to find another person, but the jerk that got kicked has to wait 7 now.

You're also not going to make it to CMs+T4s without knowing about the meta roles for each profession in fractals.

And why would he have to wait 7m he dident leave he was kicked so shouldent be punished twice.

Someone joins with the wrong role is being malicious and wasting other people's time. Someone who's repeatedly failing mechanics or not performing as a team player deserves to be removed. These actions deserve a punishment.

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@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:You Queue up with your role (Firebrand, Renegade, some flavor of DPS, etc.)

This kind of suggestion has appeared a lot in the past but it has one major problem, there aren't set roles in this game like in other MMORPGs. Plus with every patch roles change, a build that was good in one role will be bad after a trait change, rune change or will simply be surpassed by a newer build.

The hell you talking about? There are well defined roles in this game that are expected of people. There's Healer, Boon/buff support, & DPS. Think of it like a triangle where you can be any one of those three things and the closer you are to one the less you do with the others. Even in other MMOs there are updates that change what gear sets work with healer, tank, and DPS and depends entirely on your class as well.

This isn't the type game where you queue as "Tank, DPS, Healer" and you are expected, based on your build, to fulfill that role, there are no guarantees.

I think you're getting it confused. Even in ESO there are builds that have more damage and still can 'tank' or 'heal' and worse yet, people can still queue up wrong either on purpose for faster queues or on accident where they forget to switch their role before entering the queue. Either way, kicking a fake tank or fake healer (or in GW2's case, a fake boon support and fake healer) is real easy to pick out as they're not doing their job (GW2, no boons and barely any heals), and promptly get kicked. Sure you've gotta wait 5 minutes to find another person, but the jerk that got kicked has to wait 7 now.

You're also not going to make it to CMs+T4s without knowing about the meta roles for each profession in fractals.

And why would he have to wait 7m he dident leave he was kicked so shouldent be punished twice.

Someone joins with the wrong role is being malicious and wasting other people's time. Someone who's repeatedly failing mechanics or not performing as a team player deserves to be removed. These actions deserve a punishment.

Yea and the punishment is the kick.

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@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Someone joins with the wrong role is being malicious and wasting other people's time. Someone who's repeatedly failing mechanics or not performing as a team player deserves to be removed. These actions deserve a punishment.

Imo, if someone is repeatedly failing mechanics, they can be actually helped to learn them instead of punishing, we do this a lot in the groups I'm running with a pretty good rate of success.

If the party doesn't wish to do so, there's always the option to vote for a kick, it's simple, fair and seems to work just fine.

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@Tiilimon.6094 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Someone joins with the wrong role is being malicious and wasting other people's time. Someone who's repeatedly failing mechanics or not performing as a team player deserves to be removed. These actions deserve a punishment.

Imo, if someone is repeatedly failing mechanics, they can be actually helped to learn them instead of punishing, we do this a lot in the groups I'm running with a pretty good rate of success.

IMO, if you've sat there and explained mechanics for the past 30 minutes and they still don't get it, they should get the boot. They're not entitled to your time to train them and they can go try again with a different group.

If the party doesn't wish to do so, there's always the option to vote for a kick, it's simple, fair and seems to work just fine.

.. At what point did I advocate to get rid of the vote kick function? You'd still need to have a majority vote kick the person in order to remove them.

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You're asking for an additional form of punishment to be added on top, could you elaborate what you meant by it?

If you don't wish to spend the time, I already stated that you can kick if the party isn't up to training that person, I don't understand what caused the confusion about this.

I also never said anything about you advocating for getting rid of vote kicking either.

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@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:You Queue up with your role (Firebrand, Renegade, some flavor of DPS, etc.)

This kind of suggestion has appeared a lot in the past but it has one major problem, there aren't set roles in this game like in other MMORPGs. Plus with every patch roles change, a build that was good in one role will be bad after a trait change, rune change or will simply be surpassed by a newer build.

The hell you talking about? There are well defined roles in this game that are expected of people. There's Healer, Boon/buff support, & DPS. Think of it like a triangle where you can be any one of those three things and the closer you are to one the less you do with the others. Even in other MMOs there are updates that change what gear sets work with healer, tank, and DPS and depends entirely on your class as well.

This isn't the type game where you queue as "Tank, DPS, Healer" and you are expected, based on your build, to fulfill that role, there are no guarantees.

I think you're getting it confused. Even in ESO there are builds that have more damage and still can 'tank' or 'heal' and worse yet, people can still queue up wrong either on purpose for faster queues or on accident where they forget to switch their role before entering the queue. Either way, kicking a fake tank or fake healer (or in GW2's case, a fake boon support and fake healer) is real easy to pick out as they're not doing their job (GW2, no boons and barely any heals), and promptly get kicked. Sure you've gotta wait 5 minutes to find another person, but the jerk that got kicked has to wait 7 now.

You're also not going to make it to CMs+T4s without knowing about the meta roles for each profession in fractals.

The proplem is that not every boon support works with other boon supports.

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I am regularly joining CM + T4 groups to only play CM, leaving after 98CM.Some people even go as far as calling me names in wispers after i left... Just man up and use your keyboard to open lfg instead of wispering me.

But the real question is why would I wait ages for a CM only group to form when there are multiples CM+T4?It is also quite easy for the group to replace me only for T4, since the population for this is higher. The only time i feel a bit gilty is when a CM is also a daily T4.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Anen.1742 said:But the real question is why would I wait ages for a CM only group to form when there are multiples CM+T4?Oh, i don't know. Respect for other people, maybe?

I am guessing that by respect you mean making them wait after i leave.Do you have data to support the fact that the wait after I leave is longer that the wait of me non joining the party in the first place?

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But then there needs also to be a punishment for people who write out LFG's wrong.I have joined LFG's several times who had posted as All T4 Daily's and in the end only needed one fractal and were too lazy to change the LFG. So why should I waste my time for others and do more than I need to, when others don't either?

But to be honest. Whoever develops a grudge because of something like that should maybe check his priorities :''D.

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