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Invisibility has Gotten out of Hand


Vlad Morbius.1759

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"kash.9213" said:Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

Stealth is the
worst
defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all
far
better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

"You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those
other skills
doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is
not
"an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has
nothing
to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic,
but not for the reasons you say
. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by
far
, and most of the time its worse than
just not using it in the first place
.

Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the
one
category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play
against
thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka
in combat
. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually
isnt
.

But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

"Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you
cant
explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

If you are 500 yards (use Dash to escape -450 yards) away and use use BlackPowder and heartseeker , you will be 950 yard away , 50 more than bull charge can reach you .

The Warrior doesnt have to wait until the thief finishes to use it. Thats the whole point.

He will travel up to that point and wont knockback anything

Incorrect, see above.

If necro dont use Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/ , at the time you first apper ,he wont have anything to pressure you and force you to stealth and run away .

Death Strike is a Revenant skill. Also, someone has not played Necro. Or Revenant.

Rapid fire , once again he wont do any damage otherwise .

Or Ranger, apparently. Arent you supposed to be a ranger player?

You gain stealth at the start of the animation 0,1 sec after you can Blackpowder+heartseeker and mid air YOU CAN SWAP WEAPON AND STOP THE TRAVELING DISTANCE OF THE HEARTSEEKER WHILE STEALTH , this is how enginner use the Elixir 4 -leap /cancel cast (ifyou play enginner)while the enemy enginner will throw the Grenade Barrage , in the area he believe you normaly you will land

No, thats not how it works. If it did, itd make permastealthing easier. You only get stealth at the end of the cast, and weaponswapping still locks you. Also, I hit Grenade Barrage on the midpoint anyway. So whoops.

No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

Taking by suprice , you gain more distance . if you believe you are not safe use 2x dodges

If the only way to use stealth to "get out of jail free" is starting with "get out of jail free", then stealth did nothing.

You gain stealth at the start oif the cast, i have posted videos in the past . Show us with a video it cant .

You do not.
. Stealth only activates at the end of the dash. You have admitted before you know absolutely
nothing
about thief, why keep talking about it?

No , you had problem that Bull rush will track you in stealth and he will kill you

https://imgur.com/a/1ZwXDYOStealth activates 0,1 sec after the start of the cast and the icon shows with delay BEFOR E YOU TOUCH THE GROUND

Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@"kash.9213" said:Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

Stealth is the
worst
defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all
far
better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

"You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those
other skills
doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is
not
"an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has
nothing
to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic,
but not for the reasons you say
. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by
far
, and most of the time its worse than
just not using it in the first place
.

Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the
one
category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play
against
thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka
in combat
. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually
isnt
.

But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

"Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you
cant
explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

If you are 500 yards (use Dash to escape -450 yards) away and use use BlackPowder and heartseeker , you will be 950 yard away , 50 more than bull charge can reach you .

The Warrior doesnt have to wait until the thief finishes to use it. Thats the whole point.

He will travel up to that point and wont knockback anything

Incorrect, see above.

If necro dont use Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/ , at the time you first apper ,he wont have anything to pressure you and force you to stealth and run away .

Death Strike is a Revenant skill. Also, someone has not played Necro. Or Revenant.

Rapid fire , once again he wont do any damage otherwise .

Or Ranger, apparently. Arent you supposed to be a ranger player?

You gain stealth at the start of the animation 0,1 sec after you can Blackpowder+heartseeker and mid air YOU CAN SWAP WEAPON AND STOP THE TRAVELING DISTANCE OF THE HEARTSEEKER WHILE STEALTH , this is how enginner use the Elixir 4 -leap /cancel cast (ifyou play enginner)while the enemy enginner will throw the Grenade Barrage , in the area he believe you normaly you will land

No, thats not how it works. If it did, itd make permastealthing easier. You only get stealth at the end of the cast, and weaponswapping still locks you. Also, I hit Grenade Barrage on the midpoint anyway. So whoops.

No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

Taking by suprice , you gain more distance . if you believe you are not safe use 2x dodges

If the only way to use stealth to "get out of jail free" is starting with "get out of jail free", then stealth did nothing.

You gain stealth at the start oif the cast, i have posted videos in the past . Show us with a video it cant .

You do not.
. Stealth only activates at the end of the dash. You have admitted before you know absolutely
nothing
about thief, why keep talking about it?

No , you had problem that Bull rush will track you in stealth and he will kill you

Youre not even saying anything here.

https://imgur.com/a/1ZwXDYOStealth activates 0,1 sec after the start of the cast and the icon shows with delay BEFOR E YOU TOUCH THE GROUND

You posted a video which ... confirms what I said. Thats stealth at the end of the cast. Thats not 0.1 seconds, thats 0.75 seconds. So, were done here? Youre gonna stop trolling? Yes? Good.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"kash.9213" said:Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

Stealth is the
worst
defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all
far
better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

"You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those
other skills
doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is
not
"an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has
nothing
to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic,
but not for the reasons you say
. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by
far
, and most of the time its worse than
just not using it in the first place
.

Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the
one
category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play
against
thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka
in combat
. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually
isnt
.

But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

"Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you
cant
explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

If you are 500 yards (use Dash to escape -450 yards) away and use use BlackPowder and heartseeker , you will be 950 yard away , 50 more than bull charge can reach you .

The Warrior doesnt have to wait until the thief finishes to use it. Thats the whole point.

He will travel up to that point and wont knockback anything

Incorrect, see above.

If necro dont use Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/ , at the time you first apper ,he wont have anything to pressure you and force you to stealth and run away .

Death Strike is a Revenant skill. Also, someone has not played Necro. Or Revenant.

Rapid fire , once again he wont do any damage otherwise .

Or Ranger, apparently. Arent you supposed to be a ranger player?

You gain stealth at the start of the animation 0,1 sec after you can Blackpowder+heartseeker and mid air YOU CAN SWAP WEAPON AND STOP THE TRAVELING DISTANCE OF THE HEARTSEEKER WHILE STEALTH , this is how enginner use the Elixir 4 -leap /cancel cast (ifyou play enginner)while the enemy enginner will throw the Grenade Barrage , in the area he believe you normaly you will land

No, thats not how it works. If it did, itd make permastealthing easier. You only get stealth at the end of the cast, and weaponswapping still locks you. Also, I hit Grenade Barrage on the midpoint anyway. So whoops.

No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

Taking by suprice , you gain more distance . if you believe you are not safe use 2x dodges

If the only way to use stealth to "get out of jail free" is starting with "get out of jail free", then stealth did nothing.

You gain stealth at the start oif the cast, i have posted videos in the past . Show us with a video it cant .

You do not.
. Stealth only activates at the end of the dash. You have admitted before you know absolutely
nothing
about thief, why keep talking about it?

No , you had problem that Bull rush will track you in stealth and he will kill you

Youre not even saying anything here.

Stealth activates 0,1 sec after the start of the cast and the icon shows with delay BEFOR E YOU TOUCH THE GROUND

You posted a video which ... confirms what I said. Thats stealth at the end of the cast. Thats not 0.1 seconds, thats 0.75 seconds. So, were done here? Youre gonna stop trolling? Yes? Good.

Let me copy paste you argument with the other player to refesh your memory :

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"kash.9213" said:Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

Stealth is the
worst
defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all
far
better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

"You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those
other skills
doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is
not
"an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has
nothing
to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic,
but not for the reasons you say
. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by
far
, and most of the time its worse than
just not using it in the first place
.

Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the
one
category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play
against
thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).It seems here you have problem with Bull charge that can track you and kill you , while you attempted stealthWhile with me you are saying that 2 dodges will help you survive .So Bull charge is easy counter-able , why you whined to him ?:P

Stealth at the start , watch the siluete And the stealth icon pops BEFORE THE 0,75 :)I have never seen an Thief stealth at the end of the animation , in internet videos . He gain stealths when he ''jump'' ,does 2-3k without loosing stealth and his ready to backstab

Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@"kash.9213" said:Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

Stealth is the
worst
defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all
far
better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

"You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those
other skills
doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is
not
"an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has
nothing
to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic,
but not for the reasons you say
. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by
far
, and most of the time its worse than
just not using it in the first place
.

Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the
one
category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play
against
thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka
in combat
. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually
isnt
.

But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

"Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you
cant
explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

If you are 500 yards (use Dash to escape -450 yards) away and use use BlackPowder and heartseeker , you will be 950 yard away , 50 more than bull charge can reach you .

The Warrior doesnt have to wait until the thief finishes to use it. Thats the whole point.

He will travel up to that point and wont knockback anything

Incorrect, see above.

If necro dont use Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/ , at the time you first apper ,he wont have anything to pressure you and force you to stealth and run away .

Death Strike is a Revenant skill. Also, someone has not played Necro. Or Revenant.

Rapid fire , once again he wont do any damage otherwise .

Or Ranger, apparently. Arent you supposed to be a ranger player?

You gain stealth at the start of the animation 0,1 sec after you can Blackpowder+heartseeker and mid air YOU CAN SWAP WEAPON AND STOP THE TRAVELING DISTANCE OF THE HEARTSEEKER WHILE STEALTH , this is how enginner use the Elixir 4 -leap /cancel cast (ifyou play enginner)while the enemy enginner will throw the Grenade Barrage , in the area he believe you normaly you will land

No, thats not how it works. If it did, itd make permastealthing easier. You only get stealth at the end of the cast, and weaponswapping still locks you. Also, I hit Grenade Barrage on the midpoint anyway. So whoops.

No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

Taking by suprice , you gain more distance . if you believe you are not safe use 2x dodges

If the only way to use stealth to "get out of jail free" is starting with "get out of jail free", then stealth did nothing.

You gain stealth at the start oif the cast, i have posted videos in the past . Show us with a video it cant .

You do not.
. Stealth only activates at the end of the dash. You have admitted before you know absolutely
nothing
about thief, why keep talking about it?

No , you had problem that Bull rush will track you in stealth and he will kill you

Youre not even saying anything here.

Stealth activates 0,1 sec after the start of the cast and the icon shows with delay BEFOR E YOU TOUCH THE GROUND

You posted a video which ... confirms what I said. Thats stealth at the end of the cast. Thats not 0.1 seconds, thats 0.75 seconds. So, were done here? Youre gonna stop trolling? Yes? Good.

Let me copy paste you argument with the other player to refesh your memory :

@"kash.9213" said:Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

Stealth is the
worst
defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all
far
better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

"You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those
other skills
doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is
not
"an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has
nothing
to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic,
but not for the reasons you say
. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by
far
, and most of the time its worse than
just not using it in the first place
.

Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the
one
category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play
against
thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).It seems here you have problem with Bull charge that can track you and kill you , while you attempted stealth

Which part of "I dont play thief" is too hard to understand? Thats not me having the issue. Thats the thief who stealths up having the issue.

While with me you are saying that 2 dodges will help you survive .

You cant dodge while trying to enter stealth. Thats why its so easily punishable.

So Bull charge is easy counter-able , why you whined to him ?:P

Which part of "using it to punish stealth" is too hard to understand?

Stealth at the start , watch the siluete And the stealth icon pops BEFORE THE 0,75 :)

Its stealth at the end. Watch the silhouette. See how it only becomes transparent after the stealth icon pops? Which is after 0.75 seconds.

I have never seen an Thief stealth at the end of the animation , in internet videos . He gain stealths when he ''jump''

You literally just posted an example yourself. I already posted an example. Stop trolling.

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@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@AikijinX.6258 said:The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth
stolen
as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

Too much stealth- People complainToo much evade- People complainToo much damage- People complainToo much mobility- People complainToo many teleports- People complainToo much blind- People complainToo many spammable skills- People complainToo much access to poison- People complainToo much condition capability- People complainAbility to Teleport allies- People Complain

People need to chill.

Mh, what makes thief powerful is the WvW maps. Maximum mobility + stealth + huge maps allowing the thief to break combat. Initiative regenerates and the thief can come back to try the burst again. It's more just too much evade and mobility with any amount of stealth on a big map where the thief can just go in any which way (And hitting a stealthed target doesn't show any sort of tell or give any sort of feedback that, yes, you've found them.)

I hear they can also turn into an autobot and jump over the castle walls and then smash the lord dead with a metal giant fly swatter.

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(And hitting a stealthed target doesn't show any sort of tell or give any sort of feedback that, yes, you've found them.)

This should be fixed some in the UI (I propose just giving you damage floaters above your own character), but you can actually see you've hit someone from:

  1. the combat log (ewww)
  2. skill chain icons cycling
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@ASP.8093 said:

(And hitting a stealthed target doesn't show any sort of tell or give any sort of feedback that, yes, you've found them.)

This should be fixed some in the UI (I propose just giving you damage floaters above your own character), but you can actually see you've hit someone from:
  1. the combat log (ewww)
  2. skill chain icons cycling

I have hit a number of thieves that have stealthed and immediately know I have hit them. You see a downed icon on your screen.

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@aspirine.6852 said:Right now its more movement impairing is out of hand... Immobilize anyone? Of course together with trapper runes, so we are back to invis being OP..

Immob and other snares aren't OP. People just aren't running skills/traits/runes which remove them or make snares less effective because those typically also increase movement speed, and why would you want better movement speed when you move faster on a warclaw even without traits? Pre-warclaw nearly every engineer build needed a way for permanent movement speed buffs. That meant you needed either the anti-snare inventions mecha-legs, or the tools streamlined kits. Not exactly good for the engineer's already limited build diversity.

At least you can defend yourself when snared. Put up a block, protection, invulnerability, skills which evade will still work.

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Get a thief in your own group and stop complaining. They have Obv the same amount of mobi and can chase the thief off annoying your "blob". If yall continue to only rely on having guards/revs/eles/warris in your group then its on you. If you complain about that One thief singling out straggler,maybe get a thief on your own insted of asking for nerfs.

You also have a throwable stealth trap + another stealthtrap avaiable Ontop of the normal counter reveals,aoe spamm and projectiles that follow through stealth and being able to rotate 100% projectile destroy/reflect. You people dont want a "counter",you want More counter because you lack the ability to deal with them with what you have available already.

In other words,youre only as good as the amount of people you have behind you.

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@"Caedmon.6798" said:Get a thief in your own group and stop complaining. They have Obv the same amount of mobi and can chase the thief off annoying your "blob". If yall continue to only rely on having guards/revs/eles/warris in your group then its on you. If you complain about that One thief singling out straggler,maybe get a thief on your own insted of asking for nerfs.

You also have a throwable stealth trap + another stealthtrap avaiable Ontop of the normal counter reveals,aoe spamm and projectiles that follow through stealth and being able to rotate 100% projectile destroy/reflect. You people dont want a "counter",you want More counter because you lack the ability to deal with them with what you have available already.

In other words,youre only as good as the amount of people you have behind you.

As a roamer everything you've just said means little. I don't play in zergs, that's where people who don't know how to pvp or WvW roam go to hide their shame! As far as playing a thief, thanks but i don't do chicken shit builds either so try again. Either way nothing is balanced properly if you need to carry traps in order to engage or to fight. Like i said at the beginning thief isn't the only problem invisibility and how it paired to other skills is what makes it OP and the skill itself is becoming too common in class builds, so that is the really problem.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:stealth destroys any guild fighting. Both groups try to outstealth each other and the side which pulls it off, wins. This results in up to 10min of both groups moving around, retreating whenever the other side stealths up.

This is beyond stupid.

Anet, remove stealth from wvw. It is toxic, it makes the game more boring. It has no reason to exist and no valid defense to keep it.

You've been asking this for 7 years. Aren't you bored yet?

100% this^ seriously except that even though u don't like it others do and it's always been part of the game and isnt going to see any significant changes after 8+ years, seriously.

since I am playing for less than 5, I can't ask for it for 7.

That said, so far I haven't seen any reason to keep stealth.

The last sentence totally disregards the fact that a lot of people like stealth gameplay and a lot learned to play against it which tells me ur mentality. Instead of spending time on this forum talking nonsense use that time to improve at the game, just a helpful tip for ya :)

I play a lot, and a lot of talk in game is 'this stealth crap is so boring'. Or 'I wish stealth was gone, this stealth/restealth dance is annoying'.

It has nothing to do with 'improve at the game'. Stealth is inherently broken. It punishes people who do nothing wrong and rewards players that play the most toxic style.

Stealth must go away. There is no way to fix it,

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:stealth destroys any guild fighting. Both groups try to outstealth each other and the side which pulls it off, wins. This results in up to 10min of both groups moving around, retreating whenever the other side stealths up.

This is beyond stupid.

Anet, remove stealth from wvw. It is toxic, it makes the game more boring. It has no reason to exist and no valid defense to keep it.

You've been asking this for 7 years. Aren't you bored yet?

100% this^ seriously except that even though u don't like it others do and it's always been part of the game and isnt going to see any significant changes after 8+ years, seriously.

since I am playing for less than 5, I can't ask for it for 7.

That said, so far I haven't seen any reason to keep stealth.

The last sentence totally disregards the fact that a lot of people like stealth gameplay and a lot learned to play against it which tells me ur mentality. Instead of spending time on this forum talking nonsense use that time to improve at the game, just a helpful tip for ya :)

I play a lot, and a lot of talk in game is 'this stealth kitten is so boring'. Or 'I wish stealth was gone, this stealth/restealth dance is annoying'.

It has nothing to do with 'improve at the game'. Stealth is inherently broken. It punishes people who do nothing wrong and rewards players that play the most toxic style.

Stealth must go away. There is no way to fix it,

Naw u just need to accept that its here to stay and that a lot of people DO enjoy it, what's boring is the constant whining about the same mechanic for years on end expecting anything to change cuz THEY dont like the mechanic disregarding other playstyles that other people Do like just cuz they dont. Go play a mmo without stealth if u have a problem with it, it's part of the game accept it, U are the one with the prob not gw2 for having stealth :)

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@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Get a thief in your own group and stop complaining. They have Obv the same amount of mobi and can chase the thief off annoying your "blob". If yall continue to only rely on having guards/revs/eles/warris in your group then its on you. If you complain about that One thief singling out straggler,maybe get a thief on your own insted of asking for nerfs.

You also have a throwable stealth trap + another stealthtrap avaiable Ontop of the normal counter reveals,aoe spamm and projectiles that follow through stealth and being able to rotate 100% projectile destroy/reflect. You people dont want a "counter",you want More counter because you lack the ability to deal with them with what you have available already.

In other words,youre only as good as the amount of people you have behind you.

As a roamer everything you've just said means little. I don't play in zergs, that's where people who don't know how to pvp or WvW roam go to hide their shame! As far as playing a thief, thanks but i don't do chicken kitten builds either so try again. Either way nothing is balanced properly if you need to carry traps in order to engage or to fight. Like i said at the beginning thief isn't the only problem invisibility and how it paired to other skills is what makes it OP and the skill itself is becoming too common in class builds, so that is the really problem.

No one should need traps. He suggested You may find them useful, against chicken shit builds.

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@kash.9213 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Get a thief in your own group and stop complaining. They have Obv the same amount of mobi and can chase the thief off annoying your "blob". If yall continue to only rely on having guards/revs/eles/warris in your group then its on you. If you complain about that One thief singling out straggler,maybe get a thief on your own insted of asking for nerfs.

You also have a throwable stealth trap + another stealthtrap avaiable Ontop of the normal counter reveals,aoe spamm and projectiles that follow through stealth and being able to rotate 100% projectile destroy/reflect. You people dont want a "counter",you want More counter because you lack the ability to deal with them with what you have available already.

In other words,youre only as good as the amount of people you have behind you.

As a roamer everything you've just said means little. I don't play in zergs, that's where people who don't know how to pvp or WvW roam go to hide their shame! As far as playing a thief, thanks but i don't do chicken kitten builds either so try again. Either way nothing is balanced properly if you need to carry traps in order to engage or to fight. Like i said at the beginning thief isn't the only problem invisibility and how it paired to other skills is what makes it OP and the skill itself is becoming too common in class builds, so that is the really problem.

No one should need traps. He suggested You may find them useful, against chicken kitten builds.

I have seen a shadow arts d/p thief drop a stealth trap vs another shadow arts d/p theif once. Such honor

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@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Get a thief in your own group and stop complaining. They have Obv the same amount of mobi and can chase the thief off annoying your "blob". If yall continue to only rely on having guards/revs/eles/warris in your group then its on you. If you complain about that One thief singling out straggler,maybe get a thief on your own insted of asking for nerfs.

You also have a throwable stealth trap + another stealthtrap avaiable Ontop of the normal counter reveals,aoe spamm and projectiles that follow through stealth and being able to rotate 100% projectile destroy/reflect. You people dont want a "counter",you want More counter because you lack the ability to deal with them with what you have available already.

In other words,youre only as good as the amount of people you have behind you.

As a roamer everything you've just said means little. I don't play in zergs, that's where people who don't know how to pvp or WvW roam go to hide their shame! As far as playing a thief, thanks but i don't do chicken kitten builds either so try again. Either way nothing is balanced properly if you need to carry traps in order to engage or to fight. Like i said at the beginning thief isn't the only problem invisibility and how it paired to other skills is what makes it OP and the skill itself is becoming too common in class builds, so that is the really problem.

You dont need to use traps. I said its an Add on what you have available already to counter them. you refusing to use them,while its a complete hard counter,is rlly an issue on your side. Complain instead of using what you have available. Im not about to repeat myself as how you can counter them because thats something you completely ignored while you keep on screaming "OP".

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