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Necromancer is due some major nerfs, the class been flying under the radar for more than 1 year


Arheundel.6451

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@"Arheundel.6451" said:I dare you to find a single nerf thread I did which wasn't about lowering the efficiency of some specs rather than destroy the class! I dare you to find a single nerf thread made by a honest necro player

First, calling for nerf isn't asking for destroying a class, so I don't get why you "dare" me to search for one. Second, time is precious, I won't waste it on searching for threads that are created by players whom you can only guess the main professions they use or not.

I consider the following professions, the the most honest and worth of praise: warriors , mesmers, eles , I seen top players like @Helseth.2619 , @Phantaram and multiclass users like @"Boyce.4069" denouncing their own class when it was clearly broken and in needs of change....

All professions have their share of whiners that aren't "honest", but it doesn't mean that some individual aren't. You're taking those 3 players in high esteem, fine, but that's up to you.

The remaining communities in this game are far less honest and transparent, always ready to surf the periodical OP/Broken wave shamelessly but....out of of all of them the necro community is without doubt the most dishonest, always crying for buffs all year long...always complaining how weak their class is...even when we get periods with 6-8 necros per match in ranked and 30 necros out of 50 players in WvW.

Let's put it bluntly, the necromancer community mainly try to move ANet's devs toward end game PvE buffs and if possible PvE buff that wouldn't impact PvP/WvW. On the opposite, ANet's devs every move promote the necromancer's efficiency in PvP/WvW leading to a very slow rise of the necromancer's state in PvE. The necromancer's community is just as irritated by what ANet's devs does to bring the necromancer in a good place in PvE than you are about seeing necromancers everywhere in your favored gamemodes.

I find it amusing that some players would try and call me out as some kind of scammer......sorry I don't enjoy playing OP specs and I hate being at the mercy of OP ones, every time I made a nerf thread was for very good reasons, all about lowering the efficiency of same specs rather than removing them out of existence like you lot usually do.

Personally, I just call you for what you do: complain that [profession] always ask for nerf while you are yourself constantly out for nerfs on other professions.

The main point of the discussion remains the same : I never asked to remove professions from game, remove all their sources of dmg and sustain, I always consider : the amulet and traitline being used by a specific build , I don't cry about holo because I know they run with zerker amulet and their sustain/stab up is not as high as before, huge dmg is to be expected by people running with a zerk amulet, I still see holos dropping like a sack of potatoes in 1v1 ..all the while I am using a marauder ele.

Nope, the main point of the discussion, if you were anwering me was that you're calling out "necromancers", in general, for asking constantly for nerfs while, in fact, asking for nerfs is the main source of inspiration of more than half of your 197 own threads.

I can use a marauder ele against all classes, potentially lose and still don't feel the fight was unabalanced and unfair...I can take their initial burst and still see a chance to fight back ,on the other hand you go against a reaper and single ghastly claw eats 80-90% of your health followed by chill spam with unblockable marks then the perma quickness doesn't allow you to kite as all CC is near instant followed by spin to win

It doesn't mean that the elementalist don't give you options outside of the way you're playing it to solve the issue. Which is probably what 95% of the players you're complaining about point out to you.

On a marauder ele I can fight a thief and grenade holo at the same time...lose and still feel the fight was fair and can do better next time, it's not the same with necros. You have been living the dream for the last year feeling like a god due to all the dmg/sustain nerfs on other professions...it's time to bring necro down to earth..and trust me..those nerfs are coming

No, like I said, the dream of the necromancer isn't to perform well in sPvP/WvW. In this 2 gamemodes the necromancer have always had the boon hater niche to make him ever relevant. ANet's devs won't remove this niche because they flooded all professions with way to many boons so you'll always have to face necromancers in those gamemodes that you favor. Which mean that you'll always have a reason to complain about them while you'll continue to see necromancer complaining that they are bottom of the barrel in optimized PvE end game and they want this situation to change.

Let's be honest, I've said quite often that:

  • RO and Death perception both grant a broken OP amount of stat point and this need to change. The ferocity on both traits should have halved in the february patch.
  • The necromancer's shrd#1 attack is bloated with trait effects and this need to change.
  • Barrier need to be reworked, no longer being a stacking effect.
  • Scourge F2, F3 and F4 shouldn't proc manifest sand shroud. F5 shouldn't deal damage but support allies instead.
  • Lich form and every elite transformation skills need to be removed from the game and replaced by something healthier.
  • To fairly reduce the necromancer's sustain since the february patch, the LF pool to health pool rate should change from 67% to 44%.

Those aren't popular opinions and as unpopular opinions they simply disapear into forgotten lands. You could have solved 99% of the issues of the necromancer in sPvP/WvW with those suggestions had they been implemented in the february patch. ANet's devs choose the other way around, following some high ranking players that does not play necromancer insight for the current almost balanced result that seem to bother you.

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:Let's be honest, I've said quite often that:

  • RO and Death perception both grant a broken OP amount of stat point and this need to change. The ferocity on both traits should have halved in the february patch.
  • The necromancer's shrd#1 attack is bloated with trait effects and this need to change.
  • Barrier need to be reworked, no longer being a stacking effect.
  • Scourge F2, F3 and F4 shouldn't proc manifest sand shroud. F5 shouldn't deal damage but support allies instead.
  • Lich form and every elite transformation skills need to be removed from the game and replaced by something healthier.
  • To fairly reduce the necromancer's sustain since the february patch, the LF pool to health pool rate should change from 67% to 44%.

Those aren't popular opinions and as unpopular opinions they simply disapear into forgotten lands. You could have solved 99% of the issues of the necromancer in sPvP/WvW with those suggestions had they been implemented in the february patch. ANet's devs choose the other way around, following some high ranking players that does not play necromancer insight for the current almost balanced result that seem to bother you.

Those are the changes which should have happened months ago....and everybody here knows it, including the devs!All my nerf threads are about irregularities, I complained about : Holosmith - Warrior -Condi Mirage - Boonbeast/Druid - D/D ele, Tempest - Necromancer; specifically they were....

-Holo shockwave/pre-explosive line build with OP sustain/dmg ratio-"Might makes me right" sustain and Rampage

  • Infinite Horizon
  • Moa stance/Celestial Shadow and Ancient seeds
  • Fire line burning application- general sustain powercreep of Tempest
  • and a "long" list on necro

Made also a thread about condi heralds and firebrands....always complained about stackable specs with no penalties, in the words used by the devs years ago : "when a team wins with multiple versions of the same class..then we have a problem"...their words not mine

I don't come here on forum to "whine" every time I get killed by a random spec, got killed by every single class but you won't find a thread of me asking to nerf this or that other spec, all the specs I complained about got nerfed in the end.....how exactly am I the "whiny" kid here? If all my nerf threads were based on groundless accusations...those builds/skills would still be here....they don't seem so groundless to me won't you agree?

About ele..me and many others didn't sign up to "play" as a healbot and it's about high time the devs and this community understand it

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@Swagger.1459 said:Think you missed the important stuff... or are intentionally ignoring it.

@Arheundel.6451

"Necro ever increasing mobility"

You mean like all the other professions who have access to mobility skills? And there are professions with way more on demand mobility. Speed rune? Everyone has access to it. And there is way more than enough movement impairing conditions in this game...

You forget about all the other professions that have access to speed buffs? No, just an issue with Necro.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swiftness

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superspeed

And do I really need to link every movement skill in the game across all professions?

The issue was never about the mobility given to necro....it was always about the core design of the spec

A slow moving juggernaut dealing massive dmg once he reaches enough life force....this is far from what we have today with added goodies necro received since HoT launch.....in an effort to increase its desirability in PvE....during the whole ordeal the devs forgot to consider that Human players haven't got the same HP bar of a mini boss

Slow moving is a key part of the discussion here to justify the current levels of dmg

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Think you missed the important stuff... or are intentionally ignoring it.

@Arheundel.6451

"Necro ever increasing mobility"

You mean like all the other professions who have access to mobility skills? And there are professions with way more on demand mobility. Speed rune? Everyone has access to it. And there is way more than enough movement impairing conditions in this game...

You forget about all the other professions that have access to speed buffs? No, just an issue with Necro.

And do I really need to link every movement skill in the game across all professions?

The issue was never about the mobility given to necro....
it was always about the core design of the spec

A slow moving
juggernaut dealing massive dmg once he reaches enough life force....this is far from what we have today with added goodies necro received since HoT launch.....
in an effort to increase its desirability in PvE
....during the whole ordeal the devs forgot to consider that Human players haven't got the same HP bar of a mini boss

Slow moving
is a key part of the discussion here to justify the current levels of dmg

That’s your first problem... Stop being hung up on PR and advertising words. We could do that all over the place if that were the case.

Second...

You: “The issue was never about the mobility”

Also you: “Necro ever increasing mobility"

You are avoiding answering that post of mine because I am right.

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And if you want to get all technical... These statements came out first... Way before your “slow moving” thing you are hung up on...

“Guild Wars 2 is an online role-playing game with fast-paced action combat”

“Experience high-impact, fast-paced combat and choose from an arsenal of professions, weapons, and playstyles.”

“We’re putting the fun back in fantasy combat—come join us on the battlefield!”

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Think you missed the important stuff... or are intentionally ignoring it.

@Arheundel.6451

"Necro ever increasing mobility"

You mean like all the other professions who have access to mobility skills? And there are professions with way more on demand mobility. Speed rune? Everyone has access to it. And there is way more than enough movement impairing conditions in this game...

You forget about all the other professions that have access to speed buffs? No, just an issue with Necro.

And do I really need to link every movement skill in the game across all professions?

The issue was never about the mobility given to necro....
it was always about the core design of the spec

A slow moving
juggernaut dealing massive dmg once he reaches enough life force....this is far from what we have today with added goodies necro received since HoT launch.....
in an effort to increase its desirability in PvE
....during the whole ordeal the devs forgot to consider that Human players haven't got the same HP bar of a mini boss

Slow moving
is a key part of the discussion here to justify the current levels of dmg

That’s your first problem... Stop being hung up on PR and advertising words. We could do that all over the place if that were the case.

Second...

You: “The issue was never about the mobility”

Also you: “Necro ever increasing mobility"

You are avoiding answering that post of mine because I am right.

Nothing more to say, the nerfs to necro will come without doubt....you will be proved wrong like the hundreds of players who thought their spec/class was balanced...like people in this thread they shouted "L2P" from the top of their lungs...and look where they're now....

It's normal common sense....necro and rev escaped the nerf hammer in Feb ..that nerf hammer eventually will reach ...I don't know how people can think nothing will change from now.

I have been called names, verbally abused in game by players who stalk me from the forum (these people tell me their forum name..like I keep a list of all people from a gaming forum...I genuinely couldn't care less of remembering anybody name here) but in the end, all the things I suggested should be nerfed...they do get nerfed because all you need is some common sense and some MMO knowledge to see how some things stand up like a sore thumb.

The truth in the end is that only a couple of people have given arguably a reason why the necro traits I have listed in the OP exist....the rest was just typical emotionally charged angry ranting , nowhere in the OP I have suggested to gut necro sustain or dmg..still people act like I did...whatever

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Yes, other professions are pumping out just as much damage and have access to more mobility, but nerf Necro...

You don’t have much of a convincing argument here. Like at all. And I’m not the one you are trying to sway, it’s the devs you need to convince and your stated arguments aren’t strong at all.

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@"Swagger.1459" said:Yes, other professions are pumping out just as much damage and have access to more mobility, but nerf Necro...

You don’t have much of a convincing argument here. Like at all. And I’m not the one you are trying to sway, it’s the devs you need to convince and your stated arguments aren’t strong at all.

Other professions don't have access to seemingly unavoidable and unblockable 1200 chill/fear lockdown combo, neither have access to traits like "reaper's onslaught" or a broken Elite with 6-7k dmg on auto-attacks.

Chill/fear on skills that can be stacked on top of one another in the shortest amount of time....during that time I can dodge a grenade holo two times over and see a mesmer one shot burst from miles away...

Necro right now is a combination of several buffs that have been piling up for years now....they kept buffing the class with little regards to what happened to PvP/WvW all in an effort to make necro apparently more interesting to play in PvE......right now necro is the 3rd most played class in the game after guardian and warrior and yet you try to tell me that necro is not deserving of nerfs....

It's not hard to convince anybody , given the current situation

z3yaky4.png

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Strenghts and weaknesses define a class. A reaper with berserker amulet, reapers onslaught and speed runes is not a "slow moving, hard hitting juggernaut", it's a thief without stealth. Also reaper does not have a viable build that fits the original design, but most of its kit still reflects it. And it's weird, how it is a mix of slow, heavy hitting attacks and rapidfire multi-hit combos boosted by quickness. What the **** is reaper even supposed to be at the moment?

Core necro is just flat out overtuned. Damage was nerfed, sustain wasn't, infact you can even heal in shroud(you werent able for the first 6 years of this game).... if you ever feel like roleplaying as a raidboss, core necro is the perfect choice.

Scourge is basicly a slightly less tanky core necro with team support. In theory scourge gave up a whole lot of sustain to achive this support capability... but with the lowered damage it just doesn't feel like it. It takes almost as much investment to kill a menders scourge as it takes to kill a core necromancer. Except whatever AoE cleave you do in the process is nullified by all the barriers and condiconversion.

In general I would like to see the sustain of everything (not just necromancer) cut in half. There is not enough emphasis on avoiding damage in general, but necromancer in particular.... This used to be a class requiring you to be extremely aware of the battleground, shrould used to be a tool for defense, people kept saying "learning to kite? play necromancer". The current iteration of necromancer is a dumbed down spammy cluster****. You can make mistakes without consequences on no end.

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@"Bazsi.2734" said:Strenghts and weaknesses define a class. A reaper with berserker amulet, reapers onslaught and speed runes is not a "slow moving, hard hitting juggernaut", it's a thief without stealth. Also reaper does not have a viable build that fits the original design, but most of its kit still reflects it. And it's weird, how it is a mix of slow, heavy hitting attacks and rapidfire multi-hit combos boosted by quickness. What the **** is reaper even supposed to be at the moment?The slow moving juggernaut theme was dropped in 2018 as a result of PoF mobility powercreep, because to maintain that theme, the spec (even the whole class as core traits would be problematic) would need a rework, which anet can not afford to do. Some people still did not get the message until today.

Core necro is just flat out overtuned. Damage was nerfed, sustain wasn't,Just ignore the facts already posted in this thread:spectral armor nerfedspectral walk nerfedsignets nerfedunholy martyr nerfedcarrapace nerfedunholy sanctuary nerfedfoot in the grave replaced with an inferior gm trait (loss of a stunbreak and a stability source, both has a huge impact for necro)Yeah absolutely no sustain nerfs.

infact you can even heal in shroud(you werent able for the first 6 years of this game).... if you ever feel like roleplaying as a raidboss, core necro is the perfect choice.Great, you saw that meme video of a player sustaining a few noobs in wvw (incl. gear that is not available in pvp and an elite (snow leopard) that is not available in pvp). That guy could also have played ele, scrapper or bunkerbeast with the same outcome.

Core necro is completely in line with other bunkers. It is number 1 in facetanking damage, but has also the lowest mobility and the lowest stability access. People seem to have more of a problem with a class that soaks up damage instead of a class that is unkillable because of a mix of evading, blocking, healing, denying critical hits and kiting.

In general I would like to see the sustain of everything (not just necromancer) cut in half. There is not enough emphasis on avoiding damage in general, but necromancer in particular....This argument does not make sense. Why focussing on necro if several things are problematic? I don't see a concept of overal sustain reworks in this thread. I just see whining about a class with obvious counters to an extent that it is not viable in tournaments curently.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

I dare you to find a single nerf thread I did which wasn't about lowering the efficiency of some specs
rather than destroy the class
! I dare you to find
a single nerf thread made by a honest necro player

Hello, my name is Kuma, but some of you might know me as the "Stop nerfing things" guy. I spend most of my time on the forums defending other people's classes from biased or misinformed nerf threads.

I've also fallen in love with Necro as a proffession and play I've been playing a ton of it in PvP. (Mainly Mender Heal scourge). My most recent necro-themed thead was pretty honest I'd say. Suggesting a bug fix for a skill that I vehemently hate, rather than calling for Anet to gut it.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/117936/necro-staff-autos-miss-binding-roots#latest

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:Yes, other professions are pumping out just as much damage and have access to more mobility, but nerf Necro...

You don’t have much of a convincing argument here. Like at all. And I’m not the one you are trying to sway, it’s the devs you need to convince and your stated arguments aren’t strong at all.

Other professions don't have access to seemingly unavoidable and unblockable 1200 chill/fear lockdown combo, neither have access to traits like "reaper's onslaught" or a broken Elite with 6-7k dmg on auto-attacks.

Chill/fear on skills that can be stacked on top of one another in the shortest amount of time....during that time I can dodge a grenade holo two times over and see a mesmer one shot burst from miles away...

Necro right now is a combination of several buffs that have been piling up for years now....they kept buffing the class with little regards to what happened to PvP/WvW all in an effort to make necro apparently more interesting to play in PvE......
right now necro is the 3rd most played class in the game after guardian and warrior
and yet you try to tell me that necro is not deserving of nerfs....

It's not hard to convince anybody , given the current situation

z3yaky4.png

Play rate = / = Performance

If we go by this graph alone then we can reasonably surmise that neither Holo nor Renegade are a threat in the meta right now. In fact, Rev should probably recieve some buffs because it is clearly underperforming by a wide margin in comparison to the top 3.

If you want a more accurate (but not fool-proof) way of determining a class's performance, you'll want to look at Playrate vs winrate.

Low play rate + high winrate = More data needed. Suggests the class is mostly played by people who main it. Fewer inexperienced players dragging down the winrate means that it will naturally trend higher

Low play rate + low winrate = Suggests the class is underperforming. Not even its mains can make it work at a sufficient level to be considered viable. Alternatively, the meta for this class is underdeveloped.

High play rate + low winrate = More data needed. Suggests the class is either balanced or underperforming. More people playing the class means more inexperienced players and "first timers" to drag down the winrate. Additional data may suggest that the class is still strong in spite of this

High Play rate + high winrate = Suggests the class is overperforming. Even newer players to the class are seeing results. However, it may also be the case that the class only performs well at lower levels of play, where the majority of players reside. Even if it struggles at high level, this would not necessarily reflect in the win rate due to the comparatively low sample of high level players.

Note: this should not be used to gauge class strength on its own. More data needed to make a more accurate assessment. PvP also has a naturally low sample size of players meaning that results can quickly become skewed in any direction.

Gw2 efficiency does not distinguish between PvP and PvE players. I would not be surprised if classes like Engi are played more in PvP while classes like Mesmer are played less.

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@Kuma.1503 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:Yes, other professions are pumping out just as much damage and have access to more mobility, but nerf Necro...

You don’t have much of a convincing argument here. Like at all. And I’m not the one you are trying to sway, it’s the devs you need to convince and your stated arguments aren’t strong at all.

Other professions don't have access to seemingly unavoidable and unblockable 1200 chill/fear lockdown combo, neither have access to traits like "reaper's onslaught" or a broken Elite with 6-7k dmg on auto-attacks.

Chill/fear on skills that can be stacked on top of one another in the shortest amount of time....during that time I can dodge a grenade holo two times over and see a mesmer one shot burst from miles away...

Necro right now is a combination of several buffs that have been piling up for years now....they kept buffing the class with little regards to what happened to PvP/WvW all in an effort to make necro apparently more interesting to play in PvE......
right now necro is the 3rd most played class in the game after guardian and warrior
and yet you try to tell me that necro is not deserving of nerfs....

It's not hard to convince anybody , given the current situation

z3yaky4.png

Play rate = / = Performance

If we go by this graph alone then we can reasonably surmise that neither Holo nor Renegade are a threat in the meta right now. In fact, Rev should probably recieve some buffs because it is clearly underperforming by a wide margin in comparison to the top 3.

If you want a more accurate (but not fool-proof) way of determining a class's performance, you'll want to look at Playrate vs winrate.

Low play rate + high winrate = More data needed. Suggests the class is mostly played by people who main it. Fewer inexperienced players dragging down the winrate means that it will naturally trend higher

Low play rate + low winrate = Suggests the class is underperforming. Not even its mains can make it work at a sufficient level to be considered viable. Alternatively, the meta for this class is underdeveloped.

High play rate + low winrate = More data needed. Suggests the class is either balanced or underperforming. More people playing the class means more inexperienced players and "first timers" to drag down the winrate. Additional data may suggest that the class is still strong in spite of this

High Play rate + high winrate = Suggests the class is overperforming. Even newer players to the class are seeing results. However, it may also be the case that the class only performs well at lower levels of play, where the majority of players reside. Even if it struggles at high level, this would not necessarily reflect in the win rate due to the comparatively low sample of high level players.

Note: this should not be used to gauge class strength on its own. More data needed to make a more accurate assessment. PvP also has a naturally low sample size of players meaning that results can quickly become skewed in any direction.

Gw2 efficiency does not distinguish between PvP and PvE players. I would not be surprised if classes like Engi are played more in PvP while classes like Mesmer are played less.

to add to it, necro was the most played class when I was starting over a year ago, so if anything the pick-rate went down.as for renegade argument, rene is an expansion only class, so it makes sense that it has low pick-rate, if anything its weird that its not THE LEAST played class.easy classes like ranger/guard/necro will attract lots of players, also edgy/unique classes might attract lots of players too, like mesmer/thief does.

this is very bad was of looking at whats "good"for example I dont pve often but I NEVER see thiefs in fractals/raids, het somehow they have over 10% playrate, and you see 2 in each pvp game.

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@"Leonidrex.5649" said:to add to it, necro was the most played class when I was starting over a year ago, so if anything the pick-rate went down.as for renegade argument, rene is an expansion only class, so it makes sense that it has low pick-rate, if anything its weird that its not THE LEAST played class.easy classes like ranger/guard/necro will attract lots of players, also edgy/unique classes might attract lots of players too, like mesmer/thief does.

this is very bad was of looking at whats "good"for example I dont pve often but I NEVER see thiefs in fractals/raids, het somehow they have over 10% playrate, and you see 2 in each pvp game.That argumentation has no statistical basis. It is a result of your imagination how things might be.

Why do most necros suck at the game, if the class is so easy? Seriously, once a full moon I run into a necro that is a threat. The rest fails at shroud timing, at using the clunky ports and leaps adequately and at general positioning.

Is thief harder, because it can facetank less or is it easier, because it has a 1200 range port that is also a stunbreak, a block that is also a stunbreak, a stealth access that is also a stunbreak and an aoe blind or a smoke field that is also a projectile block?

Btw.: the only overrepresented necro build in casual pve is minion master. And this the worst you can run in the competitive modes. And in general: why do we talk about pve here?

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:to add to it, necro was the most played class when I was starting over a year ago, so if anything the pick-rate went down.as for renegade argument, rene is an expansion only class, so it makes sense that it has low pick-rate, if anything its weird that its not THE LEAST played class.easy classes like ranger/guard/necro will attract lots of players, also edgy/unique classes might attract lots of players too, like mesmer/thief does.

this is very bad was of looking at whats "good"for example I dont pve often but I NEVER see thiefs in fractals/raids, het somehow they have over 10% playrate, and you see 2 in each pvp game.That argumentation has no statistical basis. It is a result of your imagination how things might be.

Why do most necros suck at the game, if the class is so easy? Seriously, once a full moon I run into a necro that is a threat. The rest fails at shroud timing, at using the clunky ports and leaps adequately and at general positioning.

Is thief harder, because it can facetank less or is it easier, because it has a 1200 range port that is also a stunbreak, a block that is also a stunbreak, a stealth access that is also a stunbreak and an aoe blind or a smoke field that is also a projectile block?

Btw.: the only overrepresented necro build in casual pve is minion master. And this the worst you can run in the competitive modes. And in general: why do we talk about pve here?

necros suck at the game because their class is easy, if you can do all content by facetanking then you dont learn to kite/dodge do you? and it applies to all game modes, in openworld they go minions and dont even use skills, in fractals you have reaper/scourge with ~40k hp and even in raids I see people making ~7 scourge groups, ignoring mechanics and just facetanking bosses.

btw, its not imagination. its observation. I have played many games across many genres, and in MMO, people mostly take whats easy, be it paladin in nvo, hunter/paladin in wow, guard/necro here.

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@"KrHome.1920" said:

Core necro is just flat out overtuned. Damage was nerfed, sustain wasn't,Just ignore the facts already posted in this thread:spectral armor nerfedspectral walk nerfedsignets nerfedunholy martyr nerfedcarrapace nerfedunholy sanctuary nerfedfoot in the grave replaced with an inferior gm trait (loss of a stunbreak and a stability source, both has a huge impact for necro)Yeah absolutely no sustain nerfs.

Damage was nerfed - we both know I meant the february patch. So what makes you think this list is what I'm talking about when I say sustain? What I'm talking about is the planned sustain nerfs that tone down healing and damage reduction radically across the board. Noone cares that Spectral Armor got a CD increase from 40 to 45 seconds.TECHNICALLY you're right though, necromancer sustain was tinkered with. Good job on noticing.

infact you can even heal in shroud(you werent able for the first 6 years of this game).... if you ever feel like roleplaying as a raidboss, core necro is the perfect choice.Great, you saw that meme video of a player sustaining a few noobs in wvw (incl. gear that is not available in pvp and an elite (snow leopard) that is not available in pvp). That guy could also have played ele, scrapper or bunkerbeast with the same outcome.

I form these opinions based on how the class feels after I played them. But I appreciate the suggestion that I'm dumb enough to be influenced by a meme video. Good faith discussions are indeed boring.

Core necro is completely in line with other bunkers. It is number 1 in facetanking damage...What comes after the
but
will be irrelevant given how thats all you need to do in this current meta. Congrats on the contradiciton game speedrun....but has also the lowest mobility and the lowest stability access. People seem to have more of a problem with a class that soaks up damage instead of a class that is unkillable because of a mix of evading, blocking, healing, denying critical hits and kiting.

Yes, why should a tryharding weaver or firebrand be as durable as a necro simply standing there?

In general I would like to see the sustain of everything (not just necromancer) cut in half. There is not enough emphasis on avoiding damage in general, but necromancer in particular....This argument does not make sense. Why focussing on necro if several things are problematic?

Nice meme! Why focus on part of the problem when there are other parts too? HeY lOoK oVeR tHErE!If posting about necromancers in a thread about necromancers makes no sense to you... I'm so sorry!

I don't see a concept of overal sustain reworks in this thread.I just presented you one: Cut everything in half. Its unrefined, probably a terrible idea, but TECHNICALLY a concept of overall sustain rework.I just see whining about a class with obvious counters to an extent that it is not viable in tournaments curently.Oh I can do this one aswell!" I just see irrational simping about a class with obvious problems to an extend that it is hard to take it seriously."

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Anet is thinking of a sustain nerf? Why? Sustain has already been cut drastically across the board. Even the previous worst offenders like Water Weaver and Firebrand have been nerfed to the ground.

What Anet needs to do first if damage is too low is reevaluate damage on CC, and determine which CC's should be allowed to deal damage again. A few that I believe shoudl deal damage include:

BackbreakerEarthshakerExecutioner's Scythe (Why does this still have the execute mechanic if it does 7 damage?)Drop the hammerOvercharged Shot (or remove the self knock back. It has enough tradeoffs)Prime Light BeamRocket turret

See where we stand after that in terms of damage vs sustain. Reevaluate from there.

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Runes of Svanir should be nerfed. If you use them on your ele together with Signet of Water you become practically immune to chill!!! Who would have thought that such an OP counter to necro chill still exists!? Nerf ASAP!Edit: I forgot about Earthen Blessing! No need to take Signet. Just take that trait and you are 100% immune to chill!

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i think reaper is fine as it is.. yes it has amazing damage.. but its a melee class cannon with 0 stability and and barely stun breaks ..its so easily to mute a reaper.. and im necro my self.. enough 1 tempest or 1 spell breaker and the reaper wont even cast a spell..
it has minimal sustain .. honestly.. i did not i saw here focus 5 complain about 10k when you hit with 3 boons.. but havent seen anyone saying anything abiout over 20k crit from thief that just need to click 1 key for that.. or about shadow heart ..lich got its own drawbacks.. to a point where if its nerfed more reapers wont use it..
slow AF . and last 5 seconds.. easy to target and cc . enough 1 tempest in party to cast reflect aura. and 10 seconds of lich form go to waste.. because if you fire 1 projectile you will kill your self.. or mesmer reflect . or scrapper to cast protection bubble. or renegade to cast healing..or just put dps pressure on him.. and he will be forced to go shroud to not die.. or hide in behind something or dance around its easy to miss attacks..however.. i will agree that its not cool that condi core necro use lich form and hit hard with it.. i accept reaper

i think core necro is basically fine.. but lich form shouldnt hit so hard for a condi class.. maybe change the scaling on lich form.also when comes to core necro.. "fear" fear need to be nerfed heavily .. core necro can fear lock classes untill they die.. like 10 seconds of fear and their fear drain too much HP.. the fear definitely should be nerfed.. i also find them abit too tanky

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@"noiwk.2760" said:i think reaper is fine as it is.. yes it has amazing damage.. but its a melee class cannon with 0 stability and and barely stun breaks ..its so easily to mute a reaper.. and im necro my self.. enough 1 tempest or 1 spell breaker and the reaper wont even cast a spell..

it has minimal sustain .. honestly.. i did not i saw here focus 5 complain about 10k when you hit with 3 boons.. but havent seen anyone saying anything abiout over 20k crit from thief that just need to click 1 key for that.. or about shadow heart ..lich got its own drawbacks.. to a point where if its nerfed more reapers wont use it..

slow AF . and last 5 seconds.. easy to target and cc . enough 1 tempest in party to cast reflect aura. and 10 seconds of lich form go to waste.. because if you fire 1 projectile you will kill your self.. or mesmer reflect . or scrapper to cast protection bubble. or renegade to cast healing..or just put dps pressure on him.. and he will be forced to go shroud to not die.. or hide in behind something or dance around its easy to miss attacks..however.. i will agree that its not cool that condi core necro use lich form and hit hard with it.. i accept reaper

i think core necro is basically fine.. but lich form shouldnt hit so hard for a condi class.. maybe change the scaling on lich form.also when comes to core necro.. "fear" fear need to be nerfed heavily .. core necro can fear lock classes untill they die.. like 10 seconds of fear and their fear drain too much HP.. the fear definitely should be nerfed.. i also find them abit too tanky

dude stop posting lol, reaper gets stability from1 reaper shroudor 2 lich if he runs itor 3 that aoe stun gives stab, so every reaper will have at least 2 ways of getting stab.and reaper usually run 3 stun removing tools so saying that they barely have any is laughable.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"noiwk.2760" said:i think reaper is fine as it is.. yes it has amazing damage.. but its a melee class cannon with 0 stability and and barely stun breaks ..its so easily to mute a reaper.. and im necro my self.. enough 1 tempest or 1 spell breaker and the reaper wont even cast a spell..

it has minimal sustain .. honestly.. i did not i saw here focus 5 complain about 10k when you hit with 3 boons.. but havent seen anyone saying anything abiout over 20k crit from thief that just need to click 1 key for that.. or about shadow heart ..lich got its own drawbacks.. to a point where if its nerfed more reapers wont use it..

slow AF . and last 5 seconds.. easy to target and cc . enough 1 tempest in party to cast reflect aura. and 10 seconds of lich form go to waste.. because if you fire 1 projectile you will kill your self.. or mesmer reflect . or scrapper to cast protection bubble. or renegade to cast healing..or just put dps pressure on him.. and he will be forced to go shroud to not die.. or hide in behind something or dance around its easy to miss attacks..however.. i will agree that its not cool that condi core necro use lich form and hit hard with it.. i accept reaper

i think core necro is basically fine.. but lich form shouldnt hit so hard for a condi class.. maybe change the scaling on lich form.also when comes to core necro.. "fear" fear need to be nerfed heavily .. core necro can fear lock classes untill they die.. like 10 seconds of fear and their fear drain too much HP.. the fear definitely should be nerfed.. i also find them abit too tanky

dude stop posting lol, reaper gets stability from1 reaper shroudor 2 lich if he runs itor 3 that aoe stun gives stab, so every reaper will have at least 2 ways of getting stab.and reaper usually run 3 stun removing tools so saying that they barely have any is laughable.

you stop posting . reaper get stability from shroud 3 yes.. but reaper need to build up life force before he can use shroud . and need decent amount of it to keep it and not to watch it instnatly cancel .2 and 3 are both elite skills therefor you cant take both together !lich is per interval and it will be removed easily..

reapers have stun breaks that provide no stability or evade.. they are very easy to focus and cc lock thats a fact

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:If you are an ele player just stop while you are a head... ele has always been weak to necro and it likely always will be because chill counters your ability to rapidly attune. You can beat necros with ele but it wont be easy just like its not easy for necro to beat thieves just deal with it and learn to handle the counter match up better.

...That's rich coming from necros...truly rich...I remember few years back ....

Does Diamond skin need a nerf ?You can be the best condi necro of the world and have not a single chance in a 1 v 1 against the worst ele of the world

The jokes on you ive always been a power player even for core necro before reaper came out. While you can attempt to come at me with that diamond skin stuff there were ways around it like having more power and crit chance in your build and not fully investing in condi alone

Practice what you preach is what necros should do, at the time you'd rather play the victim card instead than learn to handle the counter match up better

We have been nerfed plenty alreayd if any thing the biggest advantage you got came with the feb patch with the removal of instant doom. Which was fair as it was a get out of jail free card even while stunned etc.But there have also been several life force generating reductions, the removal of certain amulets, and an increase on life force per second with core shroud.If you are still struggling at this point (not factoring in cheese lich for 10s every 3 minutes ) then its a you problem not the necro problem.

I already said how i feel above and that some things do still need some changes but you skipped all that but if we are really going to balance things there are still many tools that ele needs nerfed as well i wont call them out but you should understand what i mean.

So instead of telling me to practice what I preach how about you just generally practice.Just go out and fight necros im sure you can ask around for some players to help you get better at the match up.Truth is you have nothing to lose if necro nerfs do come you will be even better off at dealing with them. Stop praying to anet to nerf something into unplayability so you dont have a counter matchup every class is going to have a hard counter match up or two but that does not mean you cant win against them.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:Yes, other professions are pumping out just as much damage and have access to more mobility, but nerf Necro...

You don’t have much of a convincing argument here. Like at all. And I’m not the one you are trying to sway, it’s the devs you need to convince and your stated arguments aren’t strong at all.

Other professions don't have access to seemingly unavoidable and unblockable 1200 chill/fear lockdown combo, neither have access to traits like "reaper's onslaught" or a broken Elite with 6-7k dmg on auto-attacks.

Chill/fear on skills that can be stacked on top of one another in the shortest amount of time....during that time I can dodge a grenade holo two times over and see a mesmer one shot burst from miles away...

Necro right now is a combination of several buffs that have been piling up for years now....they kept buffing the class with little regards to what happened to PvP/WvW all in an effort to make necro apparently more interesting to play in PvE......
right now necro is the 3rd most played class in the game after guardian and warrior
and yet you try to tell me that necro is not deserving of nerfs....

It's not hard to convince anybody , given the current situation

z3yaky4.png

We all struggle with different things in-game. Better players are always around the corner. It's easy to make mistakes... I think you are just having issues against more experienced players.

My suggestion is to get a friend who plays necro and practice.

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