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Please stop asking LI for strike missions


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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Boneskinner and whisper is due to they are not easy bosses (wich anet should fix)

Nerfing the bosses so that they’re easier defeats the purpose of the strikes. Anet intended for them to be a stepping stone into raids.That didn't work. Letting go of that failure of original purpose might at least give them a second life, though.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Boneskinner and whisper is due to they are not easy bosses (wich anet should fix)

Nerfing the bosses so that they’re easier defeats the purpose of the strikes. Anet intended for them to be a stepping stone into raids.That didn't work. Letting go of that failure of original purpose might at least give them a second life, though.

And how is it a failure? Strikes have various degrees of difficulty depending on the boss you fight. They are more difficult than open world content. A “stepping stone” doesn’t mean “raid ready”.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:And how is it a failure?

Because it didn't (significantly) increased the population in raids, it's easy to see Strike Missions as failures, if you see them as stepping stones into raids.

All that happened in terms of stepping stones is the opposite of what was intended: Many people (most prominently the KP demanders) turned raiding into a stepping stone for Boneskinner.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:And how is it a failure?

Because it didn't (significantly) increased the population in raids, it's easy to see Strike Missions as failures, if you see them as stepping stones into raids.

All that happened in terms of stepping stones is the opposite of what was intended: Many people (most prominently the KP demanders) turned raiding into a stepping stone for Boneskinner.This.

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Don't worry. From experience, KP demanding groups are usually people who want to be carried. I've had more 50+ LI groups fail on stuff like boneskinner than I have training groups fail on QTP. :) It's silly. Just make your own group and let them waste their own time.

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@Nazarick.9653 said:

I pug strikes every day and I've literally never seen an lfg requesting LI. On NA if that helps.

Is this a really such a widespread issue on eu?

It's worldwise-spread issue to be annoyed by other people's LFG requirements instead of making your own.

One of truest statements you'll find on any forum where something like this comes up

And along with it you'll find the most ignored statement - not everyone has the knowledge to lead a squad. (FS is fine because anything will do, but the rest all require a specific squad make-up)

Open the LFG & Contacts window, navigate to the LFG tab, navigate to the Strikes tab, click the button to post your group, write description of what you're looking for. Boom, done. Your own LFG with your own rules.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:And how is it a failure?

Because it didn't (significantly) increased the population in raids, it's easy to see Strike Missions as failures, if you see them as stepping stones into raids.

All that happened in terms of stepping stones is the opposite of what was intended: Many people (most prominently the KP demanders) turned raiding into a stepping stone for Boneskinner.

Was it stated that the primary goal of strikes was to increase the raider population? Players choosing not to transition to raiding doesn’t mean that strikes failed as a stepping stone

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:And how is it a failure?

Because it didn't (significantly) increased the population in raids, it's easy to see Strike Missions as failures, if you see them as stepping stones into raids.

All that happened in terms of stepping stones is the opposite of what was intended: Many people (most prominently the KP demanders) turned raiding into a stepping stone for Boneskinner.

Was it stated that the primary goal of strikes was to increase the raider population? Players choosing not to transition to raiding doesn’t mean that strikes failed as a stepping stone

It was stated they should be stepping stones for people to get into raiding.That obviously means, Arenanet made them with the goal to eventually increase the population in raids.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:And how is it a failure?

Because it didn't (significantly) increased the population in raids, it's easy to see Strike Missions as failures, if you see them as stepping stones into raids.

All that happened in terms of stepping stones is the opposite of what was intended: Many people (most prominently the KP demanders) turned raiding into a stepping stone for Boneskinner.

Was it stated that the primary goal of strikes was to increase the raider population? Players choosing not to transition to raiding doesn’t mean that strikes failed as a stepping stone

It was stated they should be stepping stones for people to get into raiding.That
obviously
means, Arenanet made them with the goal to eventually increase the population in raids.

The failure or success of strikes can’t be based on whether players make a separate choice on whether to do raids or not.

There’s a very large difference between open world PvE and raids. Strikes were designed to be a stepping stone for this. If there’s still a large gap then some of the new strikes should be more challenging than what’s currently available.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:The failure or success of strikes can’t be based on whether players make a separate choice on whether to do raids or not.

There’s a very large difference between open world PvE and raids. Strikes were designed to be a stepping stone for this. If there’s still a large gap then some of the new strikes should be more challenging than what’s currently available.

I specifically wrote that they can be seen as failures, if they are seen as stepping stones into raids.There is a fundamental difference between seeing Strikes Missions on their own and seeing them as stepping stones for raids.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:The failure or success of strikes can’t be based on whether players make a separate choice on whether to do raids or not.

There’s a very large difference between open world PvE and raids. Strikes were designed to be a stepping stone for this. If there’s still a large gap then some of the new strikes should be more challenging than what’s currently available.

I specifically wrote that they
can
be seen as failures,
if they are seen as stepping stones into raids.
There is a
fundamental
difference between seeing Strikes Missions on their own and seeing them as stepping stones for raids.

Just as there’s a fundamental difference between strikes being a stepping stone for raids in regards to gameplay as opposed to increasing raid population.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:And how is it a failure?

Because it didn't (significantly) increased the population in raids, it's easy to see Strike Missions as failures, if you see them as stepping stones into raids.

All that happened in terms of stepping stones is the opposite of what was intended: Many people (most prominently the KP demanders) turned raiding into a stepping stone for Boneskinner.

Except you don't have the ground to actually make that claim. in fact I'd argue I have just as much ground to make the opposite claim.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:And how is it a failure?

Because it didn't (significantly) increased the population in raids, it's easy to see Strike Missions as failures, if you see them as stepping stones into raids.

All that happened in terms of stepping stones is the opposite of what was intended: Many people (most prominently the KP demanders) turned raiding into a stepping stone for Boneskinner.

Was it stated that the primary goal of strikes was to increase the raider population?No, but but it was mentioned that it was
one
of the goals.

Raids
  • Raids are a trickier beast. They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract. We gathered data to determine why, and the most common answer was that there is a giant leap in difficulty between raids and other endgame content, and there isn't anything to help players work their way up.
  • Our intention was for Strike Missions to be that intermediary step into 10-person content.
    As we've mentioned before and you've likely noticed, strike missions are getting harder. Once a full suite of strike missions is complete there should be a graceful ramp up to the existing raid content rather than the imposing leap that previously existed, and
    our hope is once that ramp is in place, the number of players participating in raids will go up
    . In addition to that, we're striving to make improvements to Strike Missions themselves to make grouping easier, and to improve the rewards. We hope this will help introduce more people to 10-person content,
    which will in turn increase the number of people interested in Raids.
    I bolded the relevant parts.

Players choosing not to transition to raiding doesn’t mean that strikes failed as a stepping stoneIt means exactly that. A stepping stone to raids fails as a stepping stone if noone's using it to ascend there. And yes, there
was
a mention about devs hoping that the stepping stones will increase raid population. It was in the same quote where they practically said raids are now abandoned

Anet hoped, that strikes will become a stepping stone to raids that will increase raid population. In this, strikes did end up as a failure.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:I just can't believe there is another thread on this.

As long there are people that try to cut themselves off from the vast majority via requirements, these threads will never stop.

Why would i want to spend 2 hours doing 1 strike missions if i can do it in fast in one shot with experienced people? I did the learning curve and now people want me my experience to cary them instead of looking up boss mehanics? Not gonna waste time if i want something done fast, I will ask for an experience group. But when i have time to help new people, i will help them out and give tips etc.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:And how is it a failure?

Because it didn't (significantly) increased the population in raids, it's easy to see Strike Missions as failures, if you see them as stepping stones into raids.

All that happened in terms of stepping stones is the opposite of what was intended: Many people (most prominently the KP demanders) turned raiding into a stepping stone for Boneskinner.

Was it stated that the primary goal of strikes was to increase the raider population?No, but but it was mentioned that it was
one
of the goals.

Raids
  • Raids are a trickier beast. They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract. We gathered data to determine why, and the most common answer was that there is a giant leap in difficulty between raids and other endgame content, and there isn't anything to help players work their way up.
  • Our intention was for Strike Missions to be that intermediary step into 10-person content.
    As we've mentioned before and you've likely noticed, strike missions are getting harder. Once a full suite of strike missions is complete there should be a graceful ramp up to the existing raid content rather than the imposing leap that previously existed, and
    our hope is once that ramp is in place, the number of players participating in raids will go up
    . In addition to that, we're striving to make improvements to Strike Missions themselves to make grouping easier, and to improve the rewards. We hope this will help introduce more people to 10-person content,
    which will in turn increase the number of people interested in Raids.
    I bolded the relevant parts.

Players choosing not to transition to raiding doesn’t mean that strikes failed as a stepping stoneIt means exactly that. A stepping stone to raids fails as a stepping stone if noone's using it to ascend there. And yes, there
was
a mention about devs hoping that the stepping stones will increase raid population. It was in the same quote where they practically said raids are now abandoned

Anet hoped, that strikes will become a stepping stone to raids
that will increase raid population
. In this, strikes
did
end up as a failure.

You're conflating the two. Adding a middle ground between open world content and raids (i.e. a stepping stone) and whether players actually then decide to move onto raids are two very different things.

They succeeded in adding the intermediary step (stepping stone) although it could certainly be fleshed out some more. As far as what appears to be a secondary goal, you cannot say for certain that it didn't cause players to jump into raids just as it cannot be said for certain that it did. We do not have access to that data. You cannot say strikes are a failure solely on that so unless you have something else to back up that claim...

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

It means exactly that. A stepping stone to raids fails as a stepping stone if noone's using it to ascend there. And yes, there was a mention about devs hoping that the stepping stones will increase raid population. It was in the same quote where they practically said raids are now abandoned

Anet hoped, that strikes will become a stepping stone to raids that will increase raid population. In this, strikes did end up as a failure.

You have literally no way of backing up that claim.

In order for that to be true the full suit of strikes would need to exist which you can't prove and you would have to show that it hasn't lead to more interest in raids which again you don't have the numbers to prove.

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@Deeyra.1476 said:Why would i want to spend 2 hours doing 1 strike missions if i can do it in fast in one shot with experienced people? I did the learning curve and now people want me my experience to cary them instead of looking up boss mehanics? Not gonna waste time if i want something done fast, I will ask for an experience group. But when i have time to help new people, i will help them out and give tips etc.

How'd I know what you would want?I'm not you.

Also, I'm not opposed to those KP blockades.I just make my own groups.

But me doing that doesn't stop others from making these threads.

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Judging the playerbase we need something easier than strikes before even talking about 'stepping stone' into raids to begin with. As long as there is no proper tutorial about core mechanics in the game like CC and damage types, there is no talk about increasing raid population. God forbid making strikes lobby in Aerodrome as people might do something unthinkable like joining raid LFG. The two are being disconnected from one another. Naturally, people will keep asking about li as long as it necessary in their mind to do so.

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@Bingus.4236 said:Why do people need tutorials? There's a huge wiki and people post videos online explaining stuff. Plus you could always ask people how something works...

This will sound weird, but there is alot of ppl who think that playing a game should be enough knowledge wise, like some ppl think that they should not need to look help from outside of game.

Personally i spend more time on wiki than ingame most likely tho ?

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@kanemi.4903 said:

@"Fangoth.4503" said:i think you got confused, group that ask LI are not training run and thus not a group you should get into if you are planning on reaching raid by doing strike, LI group are reward group.should people stop doing their daily/weekly reward when being able to raid? i don't think soshould people be forced to play with people that are clueless on how to play their class/role when they took the time to learn and improve themselves? once again i don't think soand in my opinion strike aren't teaching you anything about raid. Unfortunally people that have no clue how to dps/heal/give boon will remain clueless after killing all bosses. So it is even more harmful for beginer to get in groups that are routinely killing the strike as they will just find it easy and think they did great instead of having them struggle and learn what they should improve.

and for people that seems to think there is no strike kp:

But why would you ask for kp when this is a prep for raids?!

And the only boss who have kp is Boneskinner and you could added
Cold War Achievement Morale Breaker

And those are the only ones in which u can ask for something.

I have PUG strikes daily, and rarely you see peopleasking for kp/LI on NA.

Maybe you're lucky on NA and all player perform well but on EU some player are efficient at killing strikes some are miles away from being efficient.LI/KP is a filter, even though not being perfect it gives overall better group quality than open lfg.it's like if you had the choice between using two road to go to work:-one is more time consuming, and there is no need to know how to drive at all which lead to multiple accidents-one is faster and overall safer but require you to know how to driveYou're free to choose the first one if you prefer but as a permit holder i rather go via the 2nd one ;) so if i want to do only kodan/shiver/fraenir i'll go in no li group but is il want also do boneskiner or woj i'll join kp/li group.I also don't see it as a way to form you for raids, if you want start raid take like 5 min to google a build adapted for raid, pactice it 1-2h on golem and you can join trainings, best in all that if you practiced a bit you will do fine :).

Kodan/shiver/fraenir teaches nothing as they are trivial and more or less failproof, boneskiner or woj could be teaching you but i see nothing close to a training there, by training i mean something with better standards thans just having 9 friend or 9 guildies or 9 random pug that most likely don't have the experience necessary to explain properly how it works.Of course you can try to kill boneskinner daily to get a lot of vials but i'm affraid it's never gonna be accepted as LI/KP subsitute in raid. worst case groups that were asking for nothing may start to ask for them, glad it didn't happen so far.

Cold war and forging steel are just here to be done once weekly if you care about the chest, other than that they don't bring much. well coldwar could be ok-ish if it was possible to skip the pre-event but atm the only way is to wait for it to end, which is still a waste of time.asking for CW title is worth as much as asking for chilly peper or eternal ice as kp, anyone can have it whether you're skilled or not, its just farming...

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@Corvus.2831 said:

@"Antioche.7034" said:Please stop blaming on the community what is caused by the bad construction of the game.

-remove LI entirely - glad we agree.

Why are you asking to players that only wish to clear bosses decently and if possible quickly, to take by the hand and teach newer players, people that will mostly not listen anyway ?

You asume those players clear bosses decently and quickly, most LI groups ive been in have higher rate of failure than groups with no LI where players actually form the group freely optimizing themselves to do the best they can.So false premise right there. LItards dont clear bosses quickly, they waste 30 minutes in the LFG, waste everyones time and quit after two wipes because their ultimate super optimal best in slot group composition is a fairytale they deluded themselves is more important than reality of actual pratcice and play.

The people whose jobs it is to make the progression smooth so that players learn to play and access content are the devs, not the other players. Some of the playerbase are actually taking time to teach and stuff (Raid-teaching guilds and communities etc), but that is merely something that they are kind enough to do on their free time.

I agree, devs should remove LI and block inspection of builds when forming groupd throug LFG or remove LFG entirely and let guilds be the social hubs they are supposed to be.

So leave the people who want to play with others of similar level to have decent kills to their LFGs, and if that is not what you seek, do respect them and do not click to join their groups. It's as simple as that.

False premise - Li doesnt represent you have any similarity in level of play with anyone else. Many people have li because people who are not LItards let them in. They got carried and they look to get carried again by following an online guide as if it was objectively equival to how the game plays out in actuality.Oh and respect has to be earned, just because you got carried for some LI doesnt mean you get any respect from a respectable person...

It's not because /you/ only want to clear things and do not care how much time it takes and how the kill is performed that your standards applies to all players. Some people don't have much time to play, other players would rather restart the boss if the kill isn't clean enough because they like when it's well done, etc ...Again false, i already adressed this - LI groups DONT perform better and dont waste less time, they waste more time making a group and fail more often at the task than a free form pug. LItards have low attention spans and cant handle more than 2 wipes. They are arogant and demand everyone conforms to their demands, its a blanket statement of insecurity and egoism.

People seem to believe "Elitists" hate new players, but the truth is that most "Elitists" only dislike people that lie, fake stuff to get in the groups, do not ever try to learn anything and generally believe that other players are there solely to carry them into the content without doing any efforts.

LI demanding players are not elitist, they are the dirt league obsessed with the magic theory of how to win because they actually cant perform well...

Most people I know would be happy to answer questions or even take time to help someone at the golem or on gearing and build advices provided they are asked politely in PMs and know the answers. Aslong as people are genuinly motivated to learn, content isn't hard to get into. It might be a tad long, but it isn't at all if you compare it with gearing time and stuff like that on other MMOs.

Except most of the LI demanders are weak players from whom theres nothing to teach, you dont know kitten, you dont play my character at all, all you know is something you read online that you dont even understand.Good players who want to teach and let people practice dont demand LI for a kitten strike mission! The people who do are exactly the opposite of a good player who wants to teach.

Bottom line, your method leads the game down a path of less and less people playing. I am a good player, i have nothing to proove to a LI degenerate, if you treat me like kitten because you feel entitled to that then ill play some other skill based game, enjoy your mmo spinning the drain because you were too lazy to admit you just are a greedy piglet trying to game the system without putting in the work.

Enjoy pretending you have the aswer when your group wipes on WOJ because of unpredictable cuircumstances you can't addapt to cause you suck at the game :)

Woah there buddy, did someone promise you a popsicle but then didn't give it to you? Live and let live. If you don't like LI strike squads, don't join them.

if you treat me like kitten because you feel entitled to that then ill play some other skill based game

Why not join a different group? OR MAKE YOUR OWN.

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See, this idea that strike missions are the stepping stone for raids has this imaginary idea that GW2 players pay attention during a fight or can even see the mechanics and animations for said mechanics through the cloud of particle effects (Even with minimum settings; and to add, people in the raid static I'm part of don't even know a lot of mechanics). That's how strike missions failed at becoming or even being a stepping stone for raids. They lack key elements to help players pay attention and understand mechanics. They don't engage the player and stay engaging throughout, they don't really give feedback as to why you downed here and now. It's just a sea of AoE markers that are sometimes green and sometimes orange or sometimes just a mechanic (like chains on WoJ) that has an icon above the head that lasts all of a few seconds and is easily lost in the cloud of effects.

Meanwhile, Dhuum of all things has almost all of the mechanics built up to in bite-sized pieces. You stand in greens at the broken king, you stay near the spirits at the devourer, etc. This translates out to 'going up' at the Dhuum greens. The few mechanics not explained, the 7 reapers help you with by calling them out for you. When chained at Dhuum, they call "Your souls are linked, separate!" and when Dhuum tries to kill them they yell "Dhuum's gaze falls on me!". Yes, you'll fail but that's kind of the point. You'll have something of an audio cue to figure out what's going on in the fight and have a better understanding on how to deal with it.

This is not an LFG problem as it doesn't take much to make your own LFG with your own rules. This is both entitlement and anger that there are no easy groups to just join.

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@"Sir Alymer.3406" said:See, this idea that strike missions are the stepping stone for raids has this imaginary idea that GW2 players pay attention during a fight or can even see the mechanics and animations for said mechanics through the cloud of particle effects (Even with minimum settings; and to add, people in the raid static I'm part of don't even know a lot of mechanics). That's how strike missions failed at becoming or even being a stepping stone for raids. They lack key elements to help players pay attention and understand mechanics. They don't engage the player and stay engaging throughout, they don't really give feedback as to why you downed here and now. It's just a sea of AoE markers that are sometimes green and sometimes orange or sometimes just a mechanic (like chains on WoJ) that has an icon above the head that lasts all of a few seconds and is easily lost in the cloud of effects.

Meanwhile, Dhuum of all things has almost all of the mechanics built up to in bite-sized pieces. You stand in greens at the broken king, you stay near the spirits at the devourer, etc. This translates out to 'going up' at the Dhuum greens. The few mechanics not explained, the 7 reapers help you with by calling them out for you. When chained at Dhuum, they call "Your souls are linked, separate!" and when Dhuum tries to kill them they yell "Dhuum's gaze falls on me!". Yes, you'll fail but that's kind of the point. You'll have something of an audio cue to figure out what's going on in the fight and have a better understanding on how to deal with it.

This is not an LFG problem as it doesn't take much to make your own LFG with your own rules. This is both entitlement and anger that there are no easy groups to just join.

I agree with you on the lackluster implementation of the strikemissions themselves and of the assumption that they will automatically create a pipeline to raids. If they truly were this ramp to raids you could have constructed them in two ways-1) Have the focus on "mechanics" not DPSing like a bounty (Shiverpeak Pass ignoring the jumping-off iceblock moment) or healing through the mechanics (Boneskinner dodge and heal through tactic while ignoring the lights). Allowing those to be like that completely negates the point of having to do mechanics.2)have the fight literally in an arena with a preexisting raid boss and dumb down a few of the mechanics ( the easy mode) that way by the time they do the real mode its maybe only 1 or 2 extra mechanics to learn.

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