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Rune of the Golemancer should be banned or nerfed in WvW


Heibi.4251

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:Throw lines out? Bring a burn guard to just kill the adds? Walk sideways?

That's a lot of stats to give up for a gimmick

You don’t think the two servers who were facing off against them didn’t think about this?

It might be “working as intended” but it definitely needs to be revisited as did the other gimmicks in the past. If more guild groups start running these I can almost guarantee it won’t be healthy for the game mode.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:This is kind of like saying "I instantly die if a whole guild uses Battle Maul on me at once". In small group fights, the rune isn't a threat since the golem can't heal, unlike players and Ranger pets, and will be dead in a few seconds.

Skills have target caps. Large groups rely on distributing damage across multiple targets, thus reducing individual damage and allowing for both more offensive movement as well as support to members.

Having golems, or any type of "pet" run alongside you is like buffering the entire group by this golems life. As such a group of 20 players all running this rune are buffering their effective hit points by 20 x 50,000 = 1,000,000 life. Or expressed in a different way, if we assume a players average hit point pool in WvW is around 25k, having these golems tripples the initial EHP of the squad. That's pretty strong for a rune set.

The fact the golems can't be healed is trivial, given their internal cooldown of 1 minute. Damage soaked by a golem is not damage taken by a player which is almost equivalent to damage healed (or rather similar to barrier). Or again simply put: the rune provides a 50,000 value barrier every 1 minute, per player, on a persisting moving entity which also attacks.

Even worse, the target cap on control conditions and hard crowd control, and the priority of cleanses to players, means these golems will soak up a ton of enemy cc while not being initial targets for cleanses, which all go to players.

Not sure how your comment addresses any of these issues. This rune becomes an issue because it scales with number of players and messes with the target cap. In small scale all of these things are non issues because you likely are not hitting the target cap to begin with.

Its a complaint about a rune in a broken game mode that needs at least dozens of other changes, and instead of listening and implementing any of those changes, the devs look at threads like this and just nerf one thing severely and time marches on.

Players may think they're helping the game like that, but its really just slowly making it worse.

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@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:This is kind of like saying "I instantly die if a whole guild uses Battle Maul on me at once". In small group fights, the rune isn't a threat since the golem can't heal, unlike players and Ranger pets, and will be dead in a few seconds.

Skills have target caps. Large groups rely on distributing damage across multiple targets, thus reducing individual damage and allowing for both more offensive movement as well as support to members.

Having golems, or any type of "pet" run alongside you is like buffering the entire group by this golems life. As such a group of 20 players all running this rune are buffering their effective hit points by 20 x 50,000 = 1,000,000 life. Or expressed in a different way, if we assume a players average hit point pool in WvW is around 25k, having these golems tripples the initial EHP of the squad. That's pretty strong for a rune set.

The fact the golems can't be healed is trivial, given their internal cooldown of 1 minute. Damage soaked by a golem is not damage taken by a player which is almost equivalent to damage healed (or rather similar to barrier). Or again simply put: the rune provides a 50,000 value barrier every 1 minute, per player, on a persisting moving entity which also attacks.

Even worse, the target cap on control conditions and hard crowd control, and the priority of cleanses to players, means these golems will soak up a ton of enemy cc while not being initial targets for cleanses, which all go to players.

Not sure how your comment addresses any of these issues. This rune becomes an issue because it scales with number of players and messes with the target cap. In small scale all of these things are non issues because you likely are not hitting the target cap to begin with.

Its a complaint about a rune in a broken game mode that needs at least dozens of other changes, and instead of listening and implementing any of those changes, the devs look at threads like this and just nerf one thing severely and time marches on.

Players may think they're helping the game like that, but its really just slowly making it worse.

I mean, I agree and disagree. The problem with this is that it's a boonball guild that rolls with 70/30 support/dps and further inflates their durability with the summons from the runes that act as meat shields while also CCing. It's true that they don't generally live long, but because they're summoned on combat entry it cushions their pushes quite a lot.

Sigil Of Demons used to be Sigil Of Summoning. At 25 stacks it would summon a Fleshreaver which did pretty decent damage and had very high health. For a while this sigil was meta for almost the exact same reason. It was a pseudo-buff that soaked AOEs to make groups tankier. Rune Of The Privateer also used to be more popular when the bird it summons did more damage and had more health, although it wasn't so much favored by zergs, it was pretty popular among roamers because the bird frigging hurt.

I don't think nerfing these runes should be top priority or anything, but I do agree with the OP that ANet might want to change them. Boonballs are obnoxious enough as it is without adding a flock of minions on combat entry to soak damage and mass CC.

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@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:This is kind of like saying "I instantly die if a whole guild uses Battle Maul on me at once". In small group fights, the rune isn't a threat since the golem can't heal, unlike players and Ranger pets, and will be dead in a few seconds.

Skills have target caps. Large groups rely on distributing damage across multiple targets, thus reducing individual damage and allowing for both more offensive movement as well as support to members.

Having golems, or any type of "pet" run alongside you is like buffering the entire group by this golems life. As such a group of 20 players all running this rune are buffering their effective hit points by 20 x 50,000 = 1,000,000 life. Or expressed in a different way, if we assume a players average hit point pool in WvW is around 25k, having these golems tripples the initial EHP of the squad. That's pretty strong for a rune set.

The fact the golems can't be healed is trivial, given their internal cooldown of 1 minute. Damage soaked by a golem is not damage taken by a player which is almost equivalent to damage healed (or rather similar to barrier). Or again simply put: the rune provides a 50,000 value barrier every 1 minute, per player, on a persisting moving entity which also attacks.

Even worse, the target cap on control conditions and hard crowd control, and the priority of cleanses to players, means these golems will soak up a ton of enemy cc while not being initial targets for cleanses, which all go to players.

Not sure how your comment addresses any of these issues. This rune becomes an issue because it scales with number of players and messes with the target cap. In small scale all of these things are non issues because you likely are not hitting the target cap to begin with.

Its a complaint about a rune in a broken game mode that needs at least dozens of other changes, and instead of listening and implementing any of those changes, the devs look at threads like this and just nerf one thing severely and time marches on.

Players may think they're helping the game like that, but its really just slowly making it worse.

Except this is not about the rune. The main issue here is the target cap which is affected by this rune.

Calling attention to things like this is important so the developers don't lose focus of which interactions are beneficial or a detriment in the game.

Similar situations have been and are present in PvE. For example:

  • the birds instability in fractals, which caused multiple birds to spawn on players, overwhelmed the target cap for player skills (and had a heavy interaction with We Bleed Fire).
  • the Archdiviner at the end of the cliffside fractal used to have a room wide blind attack, which in past iterations was a 1 shot attack if players did not face away. A possible strategy was to "overwhelm" the attacks target cap with a lot of illusions and pets (which back then still worked as targets for skills).
  • almost every single world boss and its attacks works on a similar principle and thus allows players to eventually overwhelm the boss (combined with a fixed scaling).

Target caps for skills, both player and npc, are an issue in this game. As are skills or effects which affect them.

As example and already suggested: the golem spawned from this rune could simple be made a not priority target, thus making skills affect players first. That alone would change this, as I believe unintended behavior of the rune, without any "nerf" to the rune its self.

As far as the game mode being broken: I don't support the argument that something being in a bad shape, if one would agree to your interpretation, means less attention is the way to go. Obviously this thread, if read by a developer, should be put into context of their next balance approach (aka consider target caps) and not seen as a singular item to change (unless the issue in question is highly disturbing and/or game breaking, which this rune is not, yet).

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I mean, I agree and disagree. The problem with this is that it's a boonball guild that rolls with 70/30 support/dps and further inflates their durability with the summons from the runes that act as meat shields while also CCing.ofc great it is it, but it is not solid. Ok, anyway, lets think that this is it is. So why it not good for wvw?? For me it is perfect chooose and nice one more mechanic. Or you suggest give all same amulets and 4 runes choose as in spvp ??

Sigil Of Demons used to be Sigil Of Summoning. At 25 stacks it would summon a Fleshreaver which did pretty decent damage and had very high health. For a while this sigil was meta for almost the exact same reason. It was a pseudo-buff that soaked AOEs to make groups tankier.so great. Or we should ask also remove necro for shroud, fb for stab, and others ??

Rune Of The Privateer also used to be more popular when the bird it summons did more damage and had more health, although it wasn't so much favored by zergs, it was pretty popular among roamers because the bird frigging hurt.yes, bird nerf was big fail my opinion.

I don't think nerfing these runes should be top priority or anything, but I do agree with the OP that ANet might want to change them. Boonballs are obnoxious enough as it is without adding a flock of minions on combat entry to soak damage and mass CC.why some people think that MASS CC and mass condi spam is ok and valid mode? put aoe rings and be happy is true wvw? May be opposite we should break this aoe skill spam and make wvw more targertable?

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@HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:You want build-varietyso we already can choose any biudl on wvw. This is nice place wihtout 4 amulet choose

but it should not have any impact.everyone thing can impact, dominate, be useless, or op. It is nor make sense. Let make expamle: buff necro skill 4x. It is impact? yes and no . It is fun ? yes. So have some dominant item is ok. And no any reason use it if you don't want. This is part of freedom on wvw .

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It's not 2014. It's the latest thing. At the end of October, a very important GVG event was held. All the teams in the competition used the superior run of the golemancer,Therefore, it is necessary to change the superior run of the golemancer

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Haha. Just this week I realised this Rune is pretty good and was gathering The dungeon tokens to test it on my staff thief. Cat is out of the bag already. Tried to create a creative guild to test these kind of things but failed so props to these guys for not just dps meter humping

What people dont realise is that the 60k HP HP Golem can absorb full burst from 3 people meaning those people will hit 4 people instead of 5. And if you add The fact that all you lose is basically 5% damage scholar bonus that isnt high upkeep in fights where it matters while getting ton of CC and less mantras wasted, the golemancer runes are taking the top spot as dps runes alongside speed ones. One reducing targets Enemy hits, another increasing ones you do

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@Heibi.4251 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:This thread reeks of someone who theorycrafted an idea, thought it was op, and never actually saw it in action before posting such an idea on forums.
  1. If this was so Op, 50 man organized zergs would already be using it, but they aren't.
  2. It won't work and here's why : they are extremely unreliable, unresponsive, and randomly popped.

Its summoning condition is too easily fulfilled, and it is burstable with a force of equal size before it can do any real damage.

The sudden presence of 20 of these golems is impossible to be coordinated in a proper zerg v zerg and successfully deployed en masse without some being accidentally summoned early and ruining a potential mass summoning.

Besides yu are pulling numbers off wiki page, and if yu actually fought any of these guys, yu will know that their threat range is pathetically small and an enemy force can easily manauver themselves around it with little effort.

Also a force all utilizing golem rune will result in alot of them having stat deficiencies which could lead in things like boon duration loss, survivability loss, healing power loss, which might seen negligible in a group v group setting, but if yu actually know how group v group works, people can be picked off one by one and killed VERY FAST.

But say, this is actually true and an op strategy :

Get us a video of this happening and it beating a force of the same size.

No theory involved here. This is based on experience.Sorry, we faced this rune exploit on reset. You have no experience with this build layout. The rune does not take away too much from the zerg. It makes it so they don't need to be concerned about AOE or any direct damage since the golems absorb most of the damage. Not all of the zerg used this rune - but a substantial number does - and tis makes it nigh impossible to defeat them.

Unfortunately for you the guild group we faced was HIGHLY coordinated knowing exactly what the rune does. so please stop making asumptions.

We fought them last night during reset - I'm fully aware of what the rune exploit can do. Sorry to burst your bubble. We didn't just pull the numbers off the wiki.

Heibi we have been seeing them (the group you mentioned) quite a bit for the last few weeks and 100% agree with your analysis. Hopefully Anet does something soon.

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@Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:This rune has changed little the past 8 years, funny how now it is op? Have some fun theorizing a counter at least, siege obviously would do wonders as would condi, since cleanses would prioritize players over cleansing their golems.

  • Condis useless against players that actually pay attention to their party menu and do cooldown management since they added resistance in game (HoT)
  • The rune received 2 major buffs: from being hit chance to being proced on cooldown and 125 ferocity (which all dps runes didn't get, like scholar lost 5% damage for 125 ferocity, golemancer runes got it free)
  • Overall nerfs to other sources of CC/damage/support and introduction of firebrand mantras and shade skills (that often hit less than 5 targets)

It is just that the golem has stayed the same while every other skill got bad and the rune is actually competitive statwise even without the golem now. For example 5% damage from scholar runes for like 10 players in your squad with like 60% upkeep is nothing compared to having army of golems soaking 20% of enemy damage, hindering enemy vision and AoE ccing stuff.

Lets be frank, no1 even knew the golem had 50k hp until recently.

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@"Dinas Dragonbane.2978" said:This rune has changed little the past 8 years, funny how now it is op? Have some fun theorizing a counter at least, siege obviously would do wonders as would condi, since cleanses would prioritize players over cleansing their golems.

Right, which part of the changes in the wiki did you exactly miss?

Was it the rework in 2014 which gave the golem a 50% change to spawn? Or was it the rework in 2018 which made the spawn 100% but on a 1 minute timer.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Golemancer

You could at least fact check the stuff you mention, especially when it's all in the wiki of the rune. Your claim that the rune changed little in 8 years is strait up false (with the essential change that makes the golem spawn guaranteed on fight engage being a major change). Your inability to put the value of such a rune into context of other balance changes does the rest.

Say for example a rework to hard cc skills, removing all damage from them, thus making any additional targets excellent at soaking cc skills while taking almost no damage. Hmmm come to think of it, what exactly did the last big balance patch do? Exactly.

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@Rampage.7145 said:We want Everyone to use golemancer runes so nobody can stealth anymore, Please copy us faster make it meta, tired of dealing with bads whos only strategy in this game is stealth gyro or run away. Copy us faster, get on the golemacer meta and come fights us balls deep without stealth brothers, cannot wait. Its funny cuz we started running that as a meme, but nowdays we just laugh at all the salty bad players who think we are winning cuz of some 5head strategy behind the runes, please keep this posts comming, this kind of salt is why we play this game for.

Awwww. No thanks. Don't want them, don't need that crutch. They will be nerfed with that 300 sec CD soon enough.

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@evaknale.4510 said:It's not 2014. It's the latest thing. At the end of October, a very important GVG event was held. All the teams in the competition used the superior run of the golemancer.I am not about video. Some people and guidl used it on 2014 , it was some dominant value for unpredictable .. but after some time was check that it no so cool lif people ready for this.

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@Kayowin.9217 said:They will be nerfed with that 300 sec CD soon enough.may be opposite make SC 10 second, and let is spam like clones .. ah .. lol, How will that people scared if see mesmer blob who spam clones ?what will be happen if 20-30 handled - skilled ppl will take mesmers ? how much cry we will see ?wvw if place where 2 kill 4, and someone one kill these 2 .. And class, rune, and any build is not main detail. If for someone AOE spam come not success this is mean that time to changes is come, but not cry about balance ..

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