Rune of the Golemancer should be banned or nerfed in WvW

[Naxos.2503]

Leave it, atleast it brings something different to the table. As in, someone actually used their head to devise it, and convinced others to go along. That's worth acknowledging.

Easy counter : These golems have no CC bars and are unlikely to benefit from any stab or retal. Cheap field CC will make chunks of metals out of them

[starhunter.6015]

Golems for ever ! The Asura revolution is at hand !

[DaFishBob.6518]

@Naxos.2503 said:Leave it, atleast it brings something different to the table. As in, someone actually used their head to devise it, and convinced others to go along. That's worth acknowledging.

Easy counter : These golems have no CC bars and are unlikely to benefit from any stab or retal. Cheap field CC will make chunks of metals out of them

But don't just about all CCs do close to no damage now in competitive modes?

[Naxos.2503]

@DaFishBob.6518 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:Leave it, atleast it brings something different to the table. As in, someone actually used their head to devise it, and convinced others to go along. That's worth acknowledging.

Easy counter : These golems have no CC bars and are unlikely to benefit from any stab or retal. Cheap field CC will make chunks of metals out of them

But don't just about all CCs do close to no damage now in competitive modes?

It isn't meant to. Lock all the golems in place, and the zerg has two choices :They stay put near their golems > They can get shelled out of existence by a massive amount of AoE damage skills. An elementalist field day.They move forward while their golems stay put > They just lost their tactical advantage, and are now working with subpar runes compared to everyone else.

Side benefit : Chaos as some will inevitably choose to opt for one, and the rest will opt for the other, dividing the zerg making it easier to deal with. The tactic is nice in theory, but full of holes.

[DaFishBob.6518]

@Naxos.2503 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:Leave it, atleast it brings something different to the table. As in, someone actually used their head to devise it, and convinced others to go along. That's worth acknowledging.

Easy counter : These golems have no CC bars and are unlikely to benefit from any stab or retal. Cheap field CC will make chunks of metals out of them

But don't just about all CCs do close to no damage now in competitive modes?

It isn't meant to. Lock all the golems in place, and the zerg has two choices :They stay put near their golems > They can get shelled out of existence by a massive amount of AoE damage skills. An elementalist field day.They move forward while their golems stay put > They just lost their tactical advantage, and are now working with subpar runes compared to everyone else.

Side benefit : Chaos as some will inevitably choose to opt for one, and the rest will opt for the other, dividing the zerg making it easier to deal with. The tactic is nice in theory, but full of holes.

Oh, that's what you were getting at, just locking the golems in place to force a decision of moving or staying with the golems. Not really about turning the golems alone into chunks of metal, more like a subpar turret or banner.

[Naxos.2503]

@DaFishBob.6518 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:Leave it, atleast it brings something different to the table. As in, someone actually used their head to devise it, and convinced others to go along. That's worth acknowledging.

Easy counter : These golems have no CC bars and are unlikely to benefit from any stab or retal. Cheap field CC will make chunks of metals out of them

But don't just about all CCs do close to no damage now in competitive modes?

It isn't meant to. Lock all the golems in place, and the zerg has two choices :They stay put near their golems > They can get shelled out of existence by a massive amount of AoE damage skills. An elementalist field day.They move forward while their golems stay put > They just lost their tactical advantage, and are now working with subpar runes compared to everyone else.

Side benefit : Chaos as some will inevitably choose to opt for one, and the rest will opt for the other, dividing the zerg making it easier to deal with. The tactic is nice in theory, but full of holes.

Oh, that's what you were getting at, just locking the golems in place to force a decision of moving or staying with the golems. Not really about turning the golems alone into chunks of metal, more like a subpar turret or banner.

Arguably if they're useless, they might as well be chunks of metal no ? :p But yus, that's the rough idea. There is also no downside to leaving them as opposed to killing them, they live as long as it takes for them to be respawned. So killing them isn't mandatory, and you can opt to do so or just have 2 people lock them in place while the rest hounds the enemy zerg.

In the video submitted earlier, I noticed that the zerg that pulled the tactic was evidently pushed back. My feeling is that they probably cannot afford to be too aggressive using that tactic, as attacking will sic the golems onto their target, meaning if they attack, they have to move along with their golems. The defenders spread their forces below the walls and behind them. Doing just that should be enough to impede the zerg. These golems are ... sort of heat seeking shields if that make sense. Shields that go toward the enemy. It's a fun tactic, but it has just as many detrimental effects as it has positives.

Likewise , golems will play a bit randomly with their buffs. They're part of the party, meaning that they will benefit from buffs before a player outside of the party does (so pugs will not benefit from leftover buffs from the zerg), at the same time, they're not players, meaning that if the zerg doesn't buff enough, some of these golems will not benefit from them. That includes condi cleanse.

[HiTandMayhem.1378]

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:Sounds like someone is copying UNIV's theme meme build. The real question though: are they also using the golem finisher?It is not a meme in UNIV, it is life.

~ Kovu

Well, to be clear, UNIV has been running those runes for themed runs for years now, since the beginning of the guild, but we also recognize that it couldn't have been META this whole time.

Also, thank you Kovu for elevating my battle cry to a higher level. The Golem Massager is best finisher. :)

My experience is that Golemancer runes have always been effective against people who don't know how to counter, even when the rune really sucked. It sucks less now but still has its disadvantages. I think too that often meme runs tend to only offend people who dial in the META trend and expect everyone to be playing that META [or the recently obsolete one] so they get flustered when someone comes out of nowhere with not the formula everyone wants you to run. The most effective players I have known, instead of getting mad, they hunker down and look for the weaknesses and find a counter.

I would imagine that if Golemancer were that dialed in, our driver Kiroshima would either be telling us to run the rune or he would insist on principle that we not because unfair. He's spent plenty of bandwidth on forensically drilling down on builds that made the game too easy in this forum I can't imagine why he'd be silent on this one.

Personally, it would be a glorious day to see every single player on all sides running that rune just for the laughs. However I don't think it's good enough (or OP enough) that people would be doing it.

~HiT

[God.2708]

I would think, regardless of whether it is OP or not or what have you, it should strongly be discouraged simply because more targets means more lag and I'm pretty sure lag is universally agreed upon as being a cancerous plague that should be abolished.

[HiTandMayhem.1378]

@God.2708 said:I would think, regardless of whether it is OP or not or what have you, it should strongly be discouraged simply because more targets means more lag and I'm pretty sure lag is universally agreed upon as being a cancerous plague that should be abolished.

I thought that was solved when they murdered Ekko the dolphin. :'(

[Vegeta.2563]

@Heibi.4251 said:Please take a serious look at either banning its use in WvW or changing it's stats massively. 3-4 minute cooldown, 30 second lifespan, 5000 to10,000 health, and no CC(in WvW). Thank you for your time.

So what you are asking is, extend the respawn by almost 3-4 times longer, and cut the health down by almost 5 to 10x the HP amount. Basically making it 1 shotable, and worthless. No I don't agree with this at all. At the very most the only thing I agree with is the damage reduction from the CC ability. The only other rune that can compare to this is Eagle, which is 10% more damage to targets under 50%. If golem CC is an issue, maybe support classes aren't properly rotating skills? Does anyone ever record their WvW footage for everyone to go through to see how well they played? Any arcdps logs to check stability and aegis uptime?

Personally I would rather not have it get nerfed based on someone's ability to play properly. And no I am not pointing fingers directly at you, but it could be a handful of people that were playing with you that weren't performing optimal.

Edit: Also tested. The golems also absorb nearby boons and cleanses. So if people are running them and someone has a 10 target ability (like warrior warhorn). It will first prioritize the 5 people in that warrior's party, and then it spreads randomly.. so golems might get them as well, making is so the people that need them the most might not get them. So at least for 10 target abilities it's hurting those.

My suggestion: That same guild you were talking about running golemancer runes. You should try fighting against them and ask them to not use the runes and see how things go.

[MedievalThings.5417]

The golems walk through walls and attack people inside structures. CC'ing them.They can be given barriers so they live longer. Sure, it takes from players, but the golem itself is a 50k barrier, so /shrug.It's totally broken in it's current iteration.

[DemonSeed.3528]

I want to see a 3 way golemancer raid now

[Calisanna.8732]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:I want to see a 3 way golemancer raid now

Not sure you would see much! Good chance we’d all lag out/crash ?

[Vegeta.2563]

@Ubi.4136 said:The golems walk through walls and attack people inside structures. CC'ing them.They can be given barriers so they live longer. Sure, it takes from players, but the golem itself is a 50k barrier, so /shrug.It's totally broken in it's current iteration.

Pets and also mesmer clones take up those slots as well, and also go through walls.And chances of golems actually getting barrier is small because the radius (at least with the heal), is only 240.. if attacked just once that golem is off on its own away from barrier.

The idea behind golems is to mess with targeting. In order to beat the group running them, you have to single target focus down squishy players (revs, necros, core guards), and try to kill them before they can signet rez.

[KrHome.1920]

If the golem really has 50.000 HP, then the rune is terribly balanced because it is very one-dimensional. A lot of mechanics in GW2 are like that. Often useless, but highly problematic in specific cases. That's all bad game design. (Burnguard is another example.)

A more balanced approach would be to lower the HP, but increase the offensive capabilities of the golem, e.g. 25.000 HP + 1200 dps instead of 50.000 HP + 600 dps. And it's not like that a 100 precision + 300 ferocitiy rune becomes useless, if the golem dies.

[lare.5129]

@KrHome.1920 said:That's all bad game design. (Burnguard is another example.)there is a lot of bad design examples, and we like it. IT is core part of any mmo game. The sum of these bad make game uniq and fun.

A more balanced approach would beA more balanced approach would be add more powerful runes whit SAME mechanic from EoD dungeons to make EoD more attractive

[KrHome.1920]

@lare.5129 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:That's all bad game design. (Burnguard is another example.)there is a lot of bad design examples,

and we like it

. IT is core part of any mmo game. The sum of these bad make game uniq and fun.

A more balanced approach would beA more balanced approach would be add more powerful runes whit SAME mechanic from EoD dungeons to make EoD more attractiveDon't speak about the rest of the world as if it would agree with you! Thanks. WvW has a low playerbase, because it works like you like it. The PvE folks carry your game financially. Think about that for a moment.

You like something that is objectively one-dimensional. Good for you, bad for 80% of the game mechanics as these become useless, because only the extreme ends counter each other.

[lare.5129]

@"KrHome.1920" said:WvW has a low playerbaseWvW has a too big playerbase. We can't swap on weekend between servers ... More some bad thing - and have quene 20-50+ and of some member disconnect - we will not see him 30-60 minutes.. So if population will cut 2x I say only "thanks!"

You like something that is objectively one-dimensional. Good for you, bad for 80% of the game mechanics as these become useless, because only the extreme ends counter each other.currently I use more powerful rune. And that golem rune not complain whit our invisible strategy. So it it not good, or bad for me as item. It is good for me as variation of gameplay style.

[Valelutra.9128]

So the main group using this rune also like to run fake guild tags. And they’re running a pretty melee heavy comp. So they back up enough to bait you into chasing while their golems eat some of the damage. Then they reverse and yeet you as the golems spin to cause extra cc. The other movement they typically make involves charging into melee and then reversing as you try to push all the way through. Typically you push through them and into the waiting golems and the players follow, leading to more yeeting with the spins. Tbh it’s kinda like they’re using the golems just like how a pugmander uses pugs. They’re good for soaking damage while your good players do damage. Big difference is the golems have more HP and don’t rally the enemy.

Main weakness of the comp seems to be at range and that they have a tough time stealthing if they’ve got golems out.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Valelutra.9128 said:So the main group using this rune also like to run fake guild tags. And they’re running a pretty melee heavy comp. So they back up enough to bait you into chasing while their golems eat some of the damage. Then they reverse and yeet you as the golems spin to cause extra cc. The other movement they typically make involves charging into melee and then reversing as you try to push all the way through. Typically you push through them and into the waiting golems and the players follow, leading to more yeeting with the spins. Tbh it’s kinda like they’re using the golems just like how a pugmander uses pugs. They’re good for soaking damage while your good players do damage. Big difference is the golems have more HP and don’t rally the enemy.

Main weakness of the comp seems to be at range and that they have a tough time stealthing if they’ve got golems out.TL;DR same weakness every other seemingly simple OP thing that you multiply has - once you learn how they fight, you can adjust and win.

I still remember that time we brought 50ish engineers into battle. Everyone with supply drop. When the enemy zerg pushed... they just evaporated. Anyone in the frontline insta-died and anyone running after them insta-died. It was like drawing a line and everyone running over it died. And they did it at 5 fps because we probably almost crashed the server, hah.

But of course, after some time they learned to bait the bomb and just go around.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Valelutra.9128 said:So the main group using this rune also like to run fake guild tags. And they’re running a pretty melee heavy comp. So they back up enough to bait you into chasing while their golems eat some of the damage. Then they reverse and yeet you as the golems spin to cause extra cc. The other movement they typically make involves charging into melee and then reversing as you try to push all the way through. Typically you push through them and into the waiting golems and the players follow, leading to more yeeting with the spins. Tbh it’s kinda like they’re using the golems just like how a pugmander uses pugs. They’re good for soaking damage while your good players do damage. Big difference is the golems have more HP and don’t rally the enemy.

Main weakness of the comp seems to be at range and that they have a tough time stealthing if they’ve got golems out.TL;DR same weakness every other seemingly simple OP thing that you multiply has - once you learn how they fight, you can adjust and win.

I still remember that time we brought 50ish engineers into battle. Everyone with supply drop. When the enemy zerg pushed... they just evaporated. Anyone in the frontline insta-died and anyone running after them insta-died. It was like drawing a line and everyone running over it died. And they did it at 5 fps because we probably almost crashed the server, hah.

But of course, after some time they learned to bait the bomb and just go around.

Yes.

The group in question harmonizes their comps through research and practice. They also are one of the better at training as the expectation is people work on specific builds that work together.

Under the current play structure, most pick up groups can’t last against them as people want to play their own builds.

Taking away the rune will only change which come they go to.

And they will still wreck equal and slightly larger groups.

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

@FrodoBiggins.9184 said:I just gotta say this thread was a good laugh and meme and I wanna thank everyone who contributed to it. Imagine complaining about a dumb rune that spawns a useless golem that runs around uncontrollably and dies to random cleave and has the most obvious CC in the whole game lol. Like everyone realizes that this guild is memeing with it right? And y’all are just feeding them content lol.

Well the cool part about this is so many, and it’s a LOT, players are fairly new. Seasoned good players and groups can deal with things like this easily. It’s the inexperienced, or poor players that complain typically.

The golem is actually quite useful taking camps and shrines and towers solo. I don’t need the golem but now that I know about it I find it fun to use.

I haven’t used it against people yet but I’m looking forward to seeing what fun I can have there too. ?

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

@Threather.9354 said:

@Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:This rune has changed little the past 8 years, funny how now it is op? Have some fun theorizing a counter at least, siege obviously would do wonders as would condi, since cleanses would prioritize players over cleansing their golems.

• Condis useless against players that actually pay attention to their party menu and do cooldown management since they added resistance in game (HoT)
• The rune received 2 major buffs: from being hit chance to being proced on cooldown and 125 ferocity (which all dps runes didn't get, like scholar lost 5% damage for 125 ferocity, golemancer runes got it free)
• Overall nerfs to other sources of CC/damage/support and introduction of firebrand mantras and shade skills (that often hit less than 5 targets)

It is just that the golem has stayed the same while every other skill got bad and the rune is actually competitive statwise even without the golem now. For example 5% damage from scholar runes for like 10 players in your squad with like 60% upkeep is nothing compared to having army of golems soaking 20% of enemy damage, hindering enemy vision and AoE ccing stuff.

Lets be frank, no1 even knew the golem had 50k hp until recently.

Golems aren't players, golems don't show up on party menus.Those buffs were so major it took years to figure out?Skills got nerfed yes, that is nothing out of the ordinary. We should probably just keep nerfing things until there is nothing out of the ordinary.

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:This rune has changed little the past 8 years, funny how now it is op? Have some fun theorizing a counter at least, siege obviously would do wonders as would condi, since cleanses would prioritize players over cleansing their golems.

Right, which part of the changes in the wiki did you exactly miss?None

Your claim that the rune changed little in 8 years is strait up false (with the essential change that makes the golem spawn guaranteed on fight engage being a major change).

It changed little in 8 years. I never found it hard to get attacked in wvw by one or more people and that has stayed constant for 8 years.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Imagine me calling this seven years ago in a GvG guild and getting kicked for suggesting anything against the meta.

Honestly, the only issue is they CC. Otherwise, let the AoE cap be hit easier.

The point is obvious how AoE spam + boonballing is a trash meta and we should have more of the GvG damage come from single target damage.