Why Healbreaker gets no hotfix?

[Quadox.7834]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:Mfw people actually start complaining about HEALER WARRIOR, something so far away from what Warrior is originally archetyped as, discovered only because the Profession got dumpstered so hard in the other aspects.

Gosh, people really will cry nerf about every bloody thing.

discovered only because it is the best AND easiest support in the game*People knew about it from WvW way way long before that, but still ran bruiser till it couldn't match anything anymore.

discovered in context basically means "top teams started running it"

[Yasai.3549]

@"Quadox.7834" said:

discovered in context basically means "top teams started running it"

To be fair.... digging through the trashcan and finding something usable kinda also counts as discovering.

[Khalisto.5780]

@"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:You guys would be lost without metabattle.Or straight up copying lol.

"Warrior is the weakest class in the game and has no builds"

• February

Funny how you ignoring all the rounds of nerfs tempest had until ppl even considering playing this build.

[choovanski.5462]

@Khalisto.5780 said:

@"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:You guys would be lost without metabattle.Or straight up copying lol.

"Warrior is the weakest class in the game and has no builds"

• February

Funny how you ignoring all the rounds of nerfs tempest had until ppl even considering playing this build.

that's the thing, and that's why this forum is pepega

FB was meta supportuntil forum QQd and got it nerfed

then Tempest was metauntil forum QQd and got it nerfed

now SB is metaand forum is QQing to get it nerfed

either forum is unable to learn, or they are actually on a quest to get all the support builds in PvP deleted. I swear to god, if spellbreaker is nerfed so hard people start playing Centaur Rev the forum will make a thread about that too.

perhaps the answer is to buff Tempest and FB to be more competitive, so we have support variety in PvP and not just try to nuke the current support build, then make new threads complaining something else is now better and asking to get that nerfed too...

but idk man, sometimes I really just think this forum hates all support and tanky builds and just want things that go downstate after one thief spike being played. smh

[Jekkt.6045]

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:

@"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:You guys would be lost without metabattle.Or straight up copying lol.

"Warrior is the weakest class in the game and has no builds"

• February

Funny how you ignoring all the rounds of nerfs tempest had until ppl even considering playing this build.

that's the thing, and that's why this forum is pepega

FB was meta supportuntil forum QQd and got it nerfed

then Tempest was metauntil forum QQd and got it nerfed

now SB is metaand forum is QQing to get it nerfed

either forum is unable to learn, or they are actually on a quest to get all the support builds in PvP deleted. I swear to god, if spellbreaker is nerfed so hard people start playing Centaur Rev the forum will make a thread about that too.

perhaps the answer is to buff Tempest and FB to be more competitive, so we have support variety in PvP and not just try to nuke the current support build, then make new threads complaining something else is now better and asking to get that nerfed too...

but idk man, sometimes I really just think this forum hates all support and tanky builds and just want things that go downstate after one thief spike being played. smh

that's because the community more often than not only looks at what's right in front of their feet, and nothing more. it doesn't even matter if it's tanky or supporty builds or dps builds. if something is "overperforming" it needs to be nerfed is the common hivemind mentality.

it's really funny. the pvp playerbase is very good at identifying if something is "wrong" with a build/class but absolutely terrible at analyzing what or why it is different.

i could give you numerous examples over the years how forum qq lead to worse situations even though the idea behind was to "fix" something that was "broken". but because of shortsightedness the fix was not actually a fix.

one of the most recent examples would be condi thief and condi rev nerf. people were basically crying every day on the forums about those two builds until they got nerfed and are at most mediocre now. did it lead to the expected outcome? no, absolutely not. sure, the two builds were less of a problem now, but the nerf lead to even more problems. why? because usually builds don't exist in a vacuum and keep each other in check. condi rev nerf really didn't do anything in the side node meta. holo was king and a weaker condi rev would only cement its spot as the strongest side noder even further. from personal experience, ranger vs condi rev was about an equal matchup, so there really was no need to actually weaken condi rev.

condi thief was good against classes that were weak to burst conditions (thief, engi, rev) and kept them in check somewhat. with the nerf to condi thief those other classes became much more problematic than condi thief actually was.

so now the question is, what's the right thing to do with healbreaker?

identify its strength and weaknesses. from the top of my head i'd say it's sustain healing and sustain condi cleansing and the weaknesses would be burst damage and burst condi application.

so i would buff tempest and firebrand in a away that each can have their own niche. for example:tempest = offensive utility + average sustain healfirebrand = defensive utility + burst heal / burst removalhealbreaker = low utility + good sustain heal & sustain condi removalventari = low utility + sustain heal & good burst heal

ventari needs some other changes to really become viable though, not only number changes.

[Wisely.4819]

sorry for derailing a little but what is "healbreaker"? can you play this healing warrior in pve too? it sounds nice

[choovanski.5462]

@Jekkt.6045 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:

@"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:You guys would be lost without metabattle.Or straight up copying lol.

"Warrior is the weakest class in the game and has no builds"

• February

Funny how you ignoring all the rounds of nerfs tempest had until ppl even considering playing this build.

that's the thing, and that's why this forum is pepega

FB was meta supportuntil forum QQd and got it nerfed

then Tempest was metauntil forum QQd and got it nerfed

now SB is metaand forum is QQing to get it nerfed

either forum is unable to learn, or they are actually on a quest to get all the support builds in PvP deleted. I swear to god, if spellbreaker is nerfed so hard people start playing Centaur Rev the forum will make a thread about that too.

perhaps the answer is to buff Tempest and FB to be more competitive, so we have support variety in PvP and not just try to nuke the current support build, then make new threads complaining something else is now better and asking to get that nerfed too...

but idk man, sometimes I really just think this forum hates all support and tanky builds and just want things that go downstate after one thief spike being played. smh

that's because the community more often than not only looks at what's right in front of their feet, and nothing more. it doesn't even matter if it's tanky or supporty builds or dps builds. if something is "overperforming" it needs to be nerfed is the common hivemind mentality.

it's really funny. the pvp playerbase is very good at identifying if something is "wrong" with a build/class but absolutely terrible at analyzing what or why it is different.

i could give you numerous examples over the years how forum qq lead to worse situations even though the idea behind was to "fix" something that was "broken". but because of shortsightedness the fix was not actually a fix.

one of the most recent examples would be condi thief and condi rev nerf. people were basically crying every day on the forums about those two builds until they got nerfed and are at most mediocre now. did it lead to the expected outcome? no, absolutely not. sure, the two builds were less of a problem now, but the nerf lead to even more problems. why? because usually builds don't exist in a vacuum and keep each other in check. condi rev nerf really didn't do anything in the side node meta. holo was king and a weaker condi rev would only cement its spot as the strongest side noder even further. from personal experience, ranger vs condi rev was about an equal matchup, so there really was no need to actually weaken condi rev.

condi thief was good against classes that were weak to burst conditions (thief, engi, rev) and kept them in check somewhat. with the nerf to condi thief those other classes became much more problematic than condi thief actually was.

so now the question is, what's the right thing to do with healbreaker?

identify its strength and weaknesses. from the top of my head i'd say it's sustain healing and sustain condi cleansing and the weaknesses would be burst damage and burst condi application.

so i would buff tempest and firebrand in a away that each can have their own niche. for example:tempest = offensive utility + average sustain healfirebrand = defensive utility + burst heal / burst removalhealbreaker = low utility + good sustain heal & sustain condi removalventari = low utility + sustain heal & good burst heal

ventari needs some other changes to really become viable though, not only number changes.

exactly my dude. exactly

killing warrior won't make the support situation better, the issue is FB Centaur and Tempest need to be brought up to speed. FB for example is way too easy to focus down, and lacks raw healing due to multiple nerfs, the boy could use some buffs.

forum needs to try and think about the big picture, not just about what build pissed them off in the last game.

[ollbirtan.2915]

Healbreaker has been around in WvW for quite a while and I am surprised it took so long for it to SUDDENLY become meta. From personal experience, it's an extremely boring build to play - both in pvp and wvw....literally smash buttons....faceroll...reminds me of mirage just after PoF launch. I don't think it's OP....but the sheer boredom when playing it is a pretty good trade off imho.

[Virdo.1540]

healbreaker is good, but not strong. So it doesnt need nerfs

[Ragnar.4257]

Usually the problem with "supports" is that the intended support functionality actually ends up unintentionally buffing an entirely different build.

We saw it with side-noder Druid during HoT, we saw it with condi-Scourge, we saw it with Symbolbrand, and we see it whenever bunker-Scrapper rears its ugly head every 6 months.

But with Healbreaker..... I really don't see an issue. You could argue that it's too easy to play compared to the likes of Tempest or FB, but in terms of the actual impact it has on a game, it seems pretty reasonable. And I find it considerably less obnoxious than Tempest throwing out shocking-aura every 10 seconds.

[Zeesh.7286]

The reason it suddenly became meta is the mistform bug fix and tempest sustain nerfs. But I honestly think the mistform glyph (and channels) bug was the major factor. Tempest offers much more than healbreaker for team fights but it is harder to use now than it was before. It is just safer to run a healbreaker as a support instead of tempest right now. I don't think Tempest is any less viable and still brings in a lot more utility. A perfectly timed reflect aura when you see Lich pop up is game changing. It's just that Healbreaker is easier to run and that perfectly timed reflect aura is hard AF to pull off because so much about tempest is premptively predicting or anticipating stuff to prepare casts while healbreaker is more of a reactive play. I think it's easy to hard focus a healbreaker provided the team knows what to do. It was just as hard to take out tempests pre mistform/obsidian flesh nerfs. Damage (Primarily Holo damage) was downright broken too at that time but it took a slight (justified) hit so that's also partly why healbreakers look like they go down in a while right now.

[Jables.4659]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:reminds me of mirage just after PoF launch. I don't think it's OP....but the sheer boredom when playing it is a pretty good trade off imho.

To be fair, Mirage always had skill based builds that were fun to play. The issue is that it has also always had Infinite Horizon Condition builds.

[Vancho.8750]

@Zeesh.7286 said:The reason it suddenly became meta is the mistform bug fix and tempest sustain nerfs. But I honestly think the mistform glyph (and channels) bug was the major factor. Tempest offers much more than healbreaker for team fights but it is harder to use now than it was before. It is just safer to run a healbreaker as a support instead of tempest right now. I don't think Tempest is any less viable and still brings in a lot more utility. A perfectly timed reflect aura when you see Lich pop up is game changing. It's just that Healbreaker is easier to run and that perfectly timed reflect aura is hard AF to pull off because so much about tempest is premptively predicting or anticipating stuff to prepare casts while healbreaker is more of a reactive play. I think it's easy to hard focus a healbreaker provided the team knows what to do. It was just as hard to take out tempests pre mistform/obsidian flesh nerfs. Damage (Primarily Holo damage) was downright broken too at that time but it took a slight (justified) hit so that's also partly why healbreakers look like they go down in a while right now.

I think healbreaker is picked over tempest cause Holo and Renegade have perma uptime on boons that boost them to the sky, so having your support chase down their carry over your support getting chased down is a big bonus.

@ollbirtan.2915The build being simple lets you see the broader picture so you can concentrate on what is happening instead of constantly trying to survive , you press your buttons, they work and they are always on your screen, in WvW it seems to be the spec for the commander , in pvp it can be the shot caller for ATs.

[Swagg.9236]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:I swear to god they better not touch Shoutbreaker in WvW because of sPvP complaints.

WvW deserves nothing because it's a confused aberration which rejects any elements of team composition balance or stat restrictions.

Rejects elements of team composition? What are you talking about? Zergs have specific things they want, much to the whining of rangers and thieves that want to zerg while offering nothing or next to nothing to justify their spot. Shoutbreaker is very strong in WvW and started there much earlier than it even thought of coming to sPvP.

Zergs have their own, perferred, on-the-fly compositions, sure, but the point is that there is no team number limit on any side. Player stats are so oppressively strong in WvW that anybody not running the best 4-stat armor is probably going to either get completely bodied or fail to deal any significant damage in any encounter. Either way, in an even-player encounter or when it comes to zerg v zerg combat, there are always so many discrepancies between parties that it's difficult to take any part of WvW seriously on any sort of competitive level. This isn't saying that GW2 PvP isn't also a titanic joke, but WvW is just GW2 PvP with even more problems with regards to "level competition."

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:I swear to god they better not touch Shoutbreaker in WvW because of sPvP complaints.

WvW deserves nothing because it's a confused aberration which rejects any elements of team composition balance or stat restrictions.

Rejects elements of team composition? What are you talking about? Zergs have specific things they want, much to the whining of rangers and thieves that want to zerg while offering nothing or next to nothing to justify their spot. Shoutbreaker is very strong in WvW and started there much earlier than it even thought of coming to sPvP.

Zergs have their own, perferred, on-the-fly compositions, sure, but the point is that there is no team number limit on any side. Player stats are so oppressively strong in WvW that anybody not running the best 4-stat armor is probably going to either get completely bodied or fail to deal any significant damage in any encounter. Either way, in an even-player encounter or when it comes to zerg v zerg combat, there are always so many discrepancies between parties that it's difficult to take any part of WvW seriously on any sort of competitive level. This isn't saying that GW2 PvP isn't also a titanic joke, but WvW is just GW2 PvP with even more problems with regards to "level competition."

This is false on almost every claim.

Shoutbreaker uses Cleric stats. Dps builds use zerk with marauder mixed in for bulk until they get comfortable enough to go full zerk. Scrapper and FB are minstrel. Condi builds that are even usable, burn guard, tend to run dire with trailblazer mixed for bulk or just go carrion or sinister because duration isn't important with Balthazar runes and smoldering sigils doing 70% duration by themselves.

There are often very FEW discrepancies between zerg comps. You have a few Shoutbreakers for bubbles. Every single squad has a FB. Every squad has either a Scrapper or Tempest. Almost every zerg is lead by a chrono or FB.Every zerg has necros, usually scourge but reapers are used too, and Heralds. These are the meta builds for zerging. You will never have a viable zerg without these classes, so there absolutely is a cohesive composition to zerg building. Just because WvW has access to every stat doesn't mean every stat gets used, and certain classes have either extremely limited or no roles to fill in a zerg to justify anything but a pug slot.

[Zeesh.7286]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Zeesh.7286 said:The reason it suddenly became meta is the mistform bug fix and tempest sustain nerfs. But I honestly think the mistform glyph (and channels) bug was the major factor. Tempest offers much more than healbreaker for team fights but it is harder to use now than it was before. It is just safer to run a healbreaker as a support instead of tempest right now. I don't think Tempest is any less viable and still brings in a lot more utility. A perfectly timed reflect aura when you see Lich pop up is game changing. It's just that Healbreaker is easier to run and that perfectly timed reflect aura is hard AF to pull off because so much about tempest is premptively predicting or anticipating stuff to prepare casts while healbreaker is more of a reactive play. I think it's easy to hard focus a healbreaker provided the team knows what to do. It was just as hard to take out tempests pre mistform/obsidian flesh nerfs. Damage (Primarily Holo damage) was downright broken too at that time but it took a slight (justified) hit so that's also partly why healbreakers look like they go down in a while right now.

I think healbreaker is picked over tempest cause Holo and Renegade have perma uptime on boons that boost them to the sky, so having your support chase down their carry over your support getting chased down is a big bonus.

@ollbirtan.2915The build being simple lets you see the broader picture so you can concentrate on what is happening instead of constantly trying to survive , you press your buttons, they work and they are always on your screen, in WvW it seems to be the spec for the commander , in pvp it can be the shot caller for ATs.

Oh definitely. It's multiple factors imho that make it competitive. It's just I feel like the mistform fix and sustain nerfs is what finally drove tempests to second priority vs healbreakers as the optimal support option. Nothing on warriors changed but someone post the Tempest nerfs probably tried it and found it far more easier and successful than a tempest

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:in my mind warrior and ele are about as strong as each other, the difference comes down to the fact that ele can make mistakes and warrior is so stupid easy that you legit cant kitten up.

In a meta of press 1 rotations, standing in blind fields, instant cast interrupts, being able to stack 6-10 burns by being near an opponent, et cetera, this was disappointing and exhausting to read. Simple does not equate to easy to win with. Often times it is quite the opposite, but whatever.

Still nerf healbreaker though. Immortal builds shouldnt exist period.

[ChillyKoti.1928]

Never since the appearance of the elite specialisation Spellbreaker, did I, for one second, thought of it to be played as a healer in pvp...

Also, pvp in this game is so destroyed compared to let's say, 2 years?

I just stopped since a certain balance patch keeps on literally destroying multiple classes and making them unfairly underpowered against others.

Also, 300 seconds cooldown on passive skills... just rework them. Lol.

At this point, just revert every skill that are divided between gamemode to use the pve version everywhere (no more skill divided between gamemode) and allow every stats combination into pvp. I'm sure it'll be as bad as this is right now.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Kuma.1503" said:"Is spellbreaker too strong or is everything else too weak"?

So long as the majority fail to understand this^, and the fundamental concepts of balance, we will forever be stuck in this cycle. I've given up on PvP...its only a matter of time before the last build i play, gets the bat, and all we are left with is a bunch of skills with 300 second cooldowns.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:"Is spellbreaker too strong or is everything else too weak"?

So long as the majority fail to understand this^, and the fundamental concepts of balance, we will forever be stuck in this cycle. I've given up on PvP...its only a matter of time before the last build i play, gets the bat, and all we are left with is a bunch of skills with 300 second cooldowns.

everything is relative, if everything is OP, nothing is OP. If everything is shit, nothing is shit. If 1 thing is shit but everything is super shit then its too strong compared to the rest. If its fun its another matter, but hey, who needs fun in games anyways lulW

[Kuma.1503]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:"Is spellbreaker too strong or is everything else too weak"?

So long as the majority fail to understand this^, and the fundamental concepts of balance, we will forever be stuck in this cycle. I've given up on PvP...its only a matter of time before the last build i play, gets the bat, and all we are left with is a bunch of skills with 300 second cooldowns.

everything is relative, if everything is OP, nothing is OP. If everything is kitten, nothing is kitten. If 1 thing is kitten but everything is super kitten then its too strong compared to the rest. If its fun its another matter, but hey, who needs fun in games anyways lulW

In theory, yes.

However, a world in which every support is broken and a world in which every support is garbage are two completely different worlds.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Kuma.1503 said:In theory, yes.

However, a world in which every support is broken and a world in which every support is garbage are two completely different worlds.

Ya exactly.

I like to think of it as kind of a limbo stick. The lower the stick gets, eventually you just won't be able to limbo under it anymore. That limbo stick is the Power-dip. Not saying buffs are good, but nerfs are definitely not better than buffs, if anything they are worse.

[Bazsi.2734]

This thread is funny. How come warriors heal now, nerf kill erase!

[sitarskee.5738]

Yeah, warrior is definitely too versatile. Let's take it away from him, he has so many other good options.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

This thread is a perfect reflection of what's wrong with these forums and a lesser degree the game.