What Canthan themed legend would you like to see?

[Mormegil.2345]

@Legion.4198 said:The classical archetype of the blind ronin samurai is the perfect match for the revenant. Therefore one that carries a greatsword be a Tengu or a Norn.

i could like a samurai with a gs but samurai wont wear plate armor so it is more likely to be a thief spec since they match with the armor class. although, i could love both of them to use greatswords:D

[draxynnic.3719]

@Mormegil.2345 said:

@Legion.4198 said:The classical archetype of the blind ronin samurai is the perfect match for the revenant. Therefore one that carries a greatsword be a Tengu or a Norn.

i could like a samurai with a gs but samurai wont wear plate armor so it is more likely to be a thief spec since they match with the armor class. although, i could love both of them to use greatswords:D

Historical samurai absolutely did wear European plate when they got access to it. Plus, 'heavy armour' in GW2 is anything metallic, including scale, mail, and lamellar, not just plate. O-yoroi, do-maru, and other samurai armours would definitely count as heavy in a GW2 setting.

[phokus.8934]

Why do people include realism into a fantasy game? We shoot fireballs from our arse so anything is possible.

[Telgum.6071]

I would like to see a Balthazar spec. Greatsword, allowing to switch between both melee and ranged combat like Balthazar

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Mormegil.2345 said:

@Legion.4198 said:The classical archetype of the blind ronin samurai is the perfect match for the revenant. Therefore one that carries a greatsword be a Tengu or a Norn.

i could like a samurai with a gs but samurai wont wear plate armor so it is more likely to be a thief spec since they match with the armor class. although, i could love both of them to use greatswords:D

Historical samurai absolutely

did

wear European plate when they got access to it. Plus, 'heavy armour' in GW2 is anything metallic, including scale, mail, and lamellar, not just plate. O-yoroi, do-maru, and other samurai armours would definitely count as heavy in a GW2 setting.

Correct, plate was actually one of the most common armors accessible to samurai although fell out of favour in the 1700's but returned again in the 1800's. The lacquered lamellar style was most prominent but many many samurai wore plate as well as scale armors. Plate and to a lesser degree scale allowed for easier aplication of clan markings as well other artworks which were common among high ranking samurai.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"phokus.8934" said:Why do people include realism into a fantasy game? We shoot fireballs from our kitten so anything is possible.

Not about realism it's about following a theme or archetype which fantasy games do. Sure theres full fantasy themes like mages and u want them to feel like mages but theres also warrior classes that regardless of fantasy u want them to play and feel like a warrior right? Their not a made up fantasy So why is it weird that some one wants a samurai spec as a example to feel like a samurai and of course like warrior I'm sure I'd have some "fantasy" heavy skills, warriors were a thing but I'm sure few wielded torches or scepters lol or could jump 30 meters distance or road on dragon mounts:) no reason the two cant mix.

[phokus.8934]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"phokus.8934" said:Why do people include realism into a fantasy game? We shoot fireballs from our kitten so anything is possible.

Not about realism it's about following a theme or archetype which fantasy games do. Sure theres full fantasy themes like mages and u want them to feel like mages but theres also warrior classes that regardless of fantasy u want them to play and feel like a warrior right? Their not a made up fantasy So why is it weird that some one wants a samurai spec as a example to feel like a samurai and of course like warrior I'm sure I'd have some "fantasy" heavy skills, warriors were a thing but I'm sure few wielded torches or scepters lol or could jump 30 meters distance or road on dragon mounts:) no reason the two cant mix.

I'm not making any reference to fantasy games but when people are including historical samurai and European knights per se, then it gets a little out of hand.

[ArkofLeight.3746]

we need greatswordwe need another wide-angle cleaving shenanigan to go with the other two wide-angle cleaving shenanigans (sword and staff) and the ranged wide-angle cleaving shenanigan (hammer)Maybe if it's ranged, less like mesmer lasers and more like a super beefed up elementalist water dagger (the toss-and-return one).Imma suggest mainhand axe, but not part of a spec, just to shake up the weapon choices. Have a targetted hit like necro axe, but also a second aoe pulse that allows you to do ranged but also rewards you for getting in close. Maybe have the second bit bleed to synergize better with condi shenanigans.And I actually hope they're not canthan, just to continue the theme. Sure, Glint is sort of connected to Tarir, but that was also to set up plot.Jora or Svanir straight gives you your upkeep skill (become the bear/nornbear) which would be interesting to see as an actual transform skill, ala the norn elites. Keep the utility bar, of course.Also seconding the 'add one more utility skill or a small group of universals' idea, to shake up build shenanigans.If it has to be canthan, then probably some Kurzick or something.

[Lonami.2987]

@"Lonami.2987" said:I would like to see multiple characters instead of just one. My choice would be the four grand celestials:

• Kaiju Don, the Kirin, the embodiment of corruption.
• Kuonghsang, the Turtle Dragon, the eternal paradox.
• Hai Jii, the Phoenix, the representation of fiery eternity in the Underworld.
• Tahmu, the Dragon, a reminder of atrocity, pain, and anguish.

The elite specialization would be named the Stargazer and have astrology themes. The slot skills would be minions, one per celestial, plus an elite skill that changes depending on the number and type of active celestials. And of course, greatsword as the weapon.

Few more ideas:

• Windwalker: Unnamed tengu descendant of Talon Silverwing, who led the tengu flight north to Kryta, founding the Dominion of Winds. This one is my personal bet, using a greatsword for the weapon.
• Tidecaller: Hanasha Coralfin, a naga priestess who survived the Jade Wind, rescuing and resurrecting other naga to save their race from extinction.
• Soulbinder: Magadore, an evil lich who tried to consume the forests of Cantha 700 years ago, but was defeated by a combined force of human rangers and sidhe wardens.
• Stargazer: Unnamed jotun/yeti empress of an ancient past, connected to the Great Celestials, since jotun were famous astronomers.

Going with Togo or any other generic GW1 characters would be the most disappointing thing ever. The Guild Wars lore is full of interesting people, and it's been 250 years since GW1, so there's dozens of new stories to be written, no need to rely so much on nostalgia.

@"Legion.4198" said:The classical archetype of the blind ronin samurai is the perfect match for the revenant. Therefore one that carries a greatsword be a Tengu or a Norn.

100% agree, I think this is the best candidate. Give it a "painting" theme, like the spell effects depicting drawings, and there it is, perfection.

Thief is probably getting greatsword too, so that's a good opportunity for new "samurai stance" greatsword animations as well.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Lily.1935" said:Nostalgia is blinding people to the complications of Revenant's design that would make a "Ritualist" a terrible idea for them. Its not a good nostalgia either as the people pushing for it don't have an accurate look at what the ritualist was in GW1 or why it could never be properly served by a spec like revenant. I myself love the Ritualist and would love to see it return to Guild Wars 2. However, It needs to be served properly and the closest any profession gets to serving it properly is the necromancer. And even then I'm more interested in Acquiring Missing Elements of necromancer than trying to recapture a whole other class from the first game.

Personally, if anything, it's nostalgia that tells me that Ritualist as a Revenant elite

wouldn't

work. Ritualist was, possibly, the profession that allowed for the most diversity of builds before considering secondary professions of all the GW1 professions, having a wide variety of distinct skill types (some particular to the ritualist, some general) and able to slot in to a wide range of roles (healing, protection, regular damage, armour-ignoring damage, control, buffing damage of allies, condition removal). Revenant, by contrast, is probably the profession with the

least

ability to customise its build. While it'd be unfair to say that you can pretty much derive the rest of a revenant's build just off the legends, it's not all that far off.

Trying to squeeze ritualist into revenant is trying to squeeze all that ritualist entailed into what is effectively one skill bar. Three (fixed) utility skills, one elite, one heal, five (or less) weapon skills, and up to four skills on function keys. That's it. And, by the revenant's design, it's going to spend a lot of time swapping into a core legend, and unless that legend is Ventari (and I don't think revenant really needs another support-oriented elite, which any elite designed to work with Ventari is likely to default to becoming), it's not going to feel much like a ritualist at all after swapping.

If ritualist as an elite specialisation is really going to even be a thing, it really needs to be based on a regular profession which already has some ritualist-like features so it has that opportunity to mix and match between what's in the elite specialisation and what's in the core profession to get that feel of build versatility. Necromancer works well - honestly, there's not much mechanically in the necromancer that I couldn't see working as ritualist instead, although ritualist would likely have had different visuals. Guardian works, but I don't think it works as well since core guardian still has a melee focus (

but not as much as core revenant!

) and shouts weren't really a ritualist thing. Ranger, possibly with the pet replaced by some kind of spirit familiar, sits somewhere in between.

I think guardian would be fine, we already saw monks and ritualists wearing heavy armor during Winds of Change: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Zei_Ri

Even more, the Sea of Sorrow novels explains guardians came from mixing monk, ritualist, and paragon arts.

[phokus.8934]

@Lonami.2987 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:I would like to see multiple characters instead of just one. My choice would be the four grand celestials:

• Kaiju Don, the Kirin, the embodiment of corruption.
• Kuonghsang, the Turtle Dragon, the eternal paradox.
• Hai Jii, the Phoenix, the representation of fiery eternity in the Underworld.
• Tahmu, the Dragon, a reminder of atrocity, pain, and anguish.

The elite specialization would be named the

Stargazer

and have astrology themes. The slot skills would be minions, one per celestial, plus an elite skill that changes depending on the number and type of active celestials. And of course, greatsword as the weapon.

Few more ideas:

• Windwalker:
  Unnamed tengu descendant of
  Talon Silverwing
  , who led the tengu flight north to Kryta, founding the Dominion of Winds.
  This one is my personal bet, using a greatsword for the weapon.
• Tidecaller:
  Hanasha Coralfin
  , a naga priestess who survived the Jade Wind, rescuing and resurrecting other naga to save their race from extinction.
• Soulbinder:
  Magadore
  , an evil lich who tried to consume the forests of Cantha 700 years ago, but was defeated by a combined force of human rangers and sidhe wardens.
• Stargazer:
  Unnamed jotun/yeti empress of an ancient past, connected to the
  Great Celestials
  , since jotun were famous astronomers.

Going with Togo or any other generic GW1 characters would be the most disappointing thing ever. The Guild Wars lore is full of interesting people, and it's been 250 years since GW1, so there's dozens of new stories to be written, no need to rely so much on nostalgia.

@"Legion.4198" said:The classical archetype of the blind ronin samurai is the perfect match for the revenant. Therefore one that carries a greatsword be a Tengu or a Norn.

100% agree, I think this is the best candidate. Give it a "painting" theme, like the spell effects depicting drawings, and there it is, perfection.

But we're going to Cantha where the whole thing is nostalgia.

[Lonami.2987]

@phokus.8934 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:I would like to see multiple characters instead of just one. My choice would be the four grand celestials:

• Kaiju Don, the Kirin, the embodiment of corruption.
• Kuonghsang, the Turtle Dragon, the eternal paradox.
• Hai Jii, the Phoenix, the representation of fiery eternity in the Underworld.
• Tahmu, the Dragon, a reminder of atrocity, pain, and anguish.

The elite specialization would be named the

Stargazer

and have astrology themes. The slot skills would be minions, one per celestial, plus an elite skill that changes depending on the number and type of active celestials. And of course, greatsword as the weapon.

Few more ideas:

• Windwalker:
  Unnamed tengu descendant of
  Talon Silverwing
  , who led the tengu flight north to Kryta, founding the Dominion of Winds.
  This one is my personal bet, using a greatsword for the weapon.
• Tidecaller:
  Hanasha Coralfin
  , a naga priestess who survived the Jade Wind, rescuing and resurrecting other naga to save their race from extinction.
• Soulbinder:
  Magadore
  , an evil lich who tried to consume the forests of Cantha 700 years ago, but was defeated by a combined force of human rangers and sidhe wardens.
• Stargazer:
  Unnamed jotun/yeti empress of an ancient past, connected to the
  Great Celestials
  , since jotun were famous astronomers.

Going with Togo or any other generic GW1 characters would be the most disappointing thing ever. The Guild Wars lore is full of interesting people, and it's been 250 years since GW1, so there's dozens of new stories to be written, no need to rely so much on nostalgia.

@"Legion.4198" said:The classical archetype of the blind ronin samurai is the perfect match for the revenant. Therefore one that carries a greatsword be a Tengu or a Norn.

100% agree, I think this is the best candidate. Give it a "painting" theme, like the spell effects depicting drawings, and there it is, perfection.

But we're going to Cantha where the whole thing is nostalgia.

Nostalgia is fine, copy+pasting the same plots and characters from another game is just lazy, almost like a bad reboot.

I don't like Kalla Scorchrazor too much, probably because she didn't get any screen time, but ArenaNet has proven to be able to write amazing characters, my favorite being Olma, the founder of the Olmakhan.

[Elric.4713]

@"Lonami.2987" said:Going with Togo or any other generic GW1 characters would be the most disappointing thing ever. The Guild Wars lore is full of interesting people, and it's been 250 years since GW1, so there's dozens of new stories to be written, no need to rely so much on nostalgia.

Yeah, why should we get a well known and liked character when we can get someone unknown just so you can get some of your borderline fan-fiction specializations.

I think guardian would be fine, we already saw monks and ritualists wearing heavy armor during Winds of Change: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Zei_Ri

Even more, the Sea of Sorrow novels explains guardians came from mixing monk, ritualist, and paragon arts.

That was way before the Revenant was introduced into the game. And in-game lore > books.

[Aeolus.3615]

1 Celestial legendary weapon that could become any weapon

other themes:EchovaldJade SeaMiasmaSiege turtle cannon... that shoots turtle shells :| (like the mario Kart turtle shells)

[draxynnic.3719]

@"Lonami.2987" said:

I think guardian would be fine, we already saw monks and ritualists wearing heavy armor during Winds of Change: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Zei_Ri

Even more, the Sea of Sorrow novels explains guardians came from mixing monk, ritualist, and paragon arts.

Technically speaking, it was an outfit. Ministry of Purity monks and ritualists still had lower armour than the melee professions. But yeah.

@Elric.4713 said:

That was way before the Revenant was introduced into the game. And in-game lore > books.

Nothing in the in-game lore contradicts it, though, and there ARE aspects of guardians skills that are more likely to have come from ritualist than any other profession.

And mechanical compatibility > all. You're not going to get a revenant elite specialisation that feels more like a ritualist than Renegade already does. The base revenant mechanics just don't allow it.

[Fueki.4753]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:And mechanical compatibility > all. You're not going to get a revenant elite specialisation that feels more like a ritualist than Renegade already does. The base revenant mechanics just don't allow it.

We could get a Revenant elite specialization that focusses on Weapon Spells or on Ashes.Both could feel as "close" to Ritualist as Renegade does.Not, that Renegade feels anywhere close to it.

But people need to stop reducing Ritualists to Spirits.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:And mechanical compatibility > all. You're not going to get a revenant elite specialisation that feels more like a ritualist than Renegade already does. The base revenant mechanics just don't allow it.

We could get a Revenant elite specialization that focusses on Weapon Spells or on Ashes.Both could feel as "close" to Ritualist as Renegade does.Not, that Renegade feels anywhere close to it.

But people need to stop reducing Ritualists to Spirits.

Spirits were the main mechanic. Urns and weapon spells were something you'd sometimes have one or two of, while it was the rare build that didn't have at least one spirit without shooting itself in the foot, and some builds were pretty much all spirits or spirit-supporting skills.

Meanwhile, a hypothetical 'urn revenant' or 'weapon spell revenant' would have half their bar of them, because that's how revenant works. It'd then spend roughly half it's time flipping over to a core legend, which means either a melee-oriented legend or Ventari, because that's how revenant works. And it wouldn't have access to spirits, unless you count Ventari's Tablet as a spirit, because that's how revenants elite specialisations work. So unless you want an elite specialisation designed to work with Ventari, which means yet another support elite specialisation...

Ashes and weapon spells worked through having one or two of them on your build mixed with other things. That was one of the main themes of ritualist - exploiting synergies between different skill types. Renegade could be seen as a reasonable approximation to a spirit ritualist, but squeezing every urn or weapon spell onto one bar is completely missing the point (let alone raising the question of how such a thing would even work translated into GW2 mechanics. Would we be looking at a legend with the equivalent of five conjures or five kits? Don't you think that would be a little bit silly?). In order to actually replicate how they were used in GW1, they should be on a profession with a normal utility bar, so you can take just one or two rather than committing to an entire legend.

Revenant is its own thing. Yes, it has a thematic similarity to ritualists in that it connects to the Mists, but it's fundamentally a heavy-armour profession rather than a scholar profession (with all that implies) and its method of channeling a single powerful legend is very different to ritualist invoking multiple lesser spirits (whether by binding them to weapons or pots, or simply to the ground). Kalla was the nod to the common power source, giving revenant a spirit-spammer-esque playstyle (that which is certainly most strongly associated with ritualist). Now it's time for revenant to go back to exploring its own potential rather than trying to copy something that it can never be.

But people need to stop reducing Revenants to substitute Ritualists.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:And mechanical compatibility > all. You're not going to get a revenant elite specialisation that feels more like a ritualist than Renegade already does. The base revenant mechanics just don't allow it.

But people need to stop reducing Ritualists to Spirits.

Amen. Everyone forgets the Channeling Magic aspect which was mostly raw damage or the skill Spirit's Strength, which lead to some builds that didn't use a single spirit at all and combined itself with a melee damage dealer secondary profession, like Assassin or Dervish. People forget that just because a lot of PvE builds used a ton of spirits to solo the Underworld or other content by abusing mob attack priority doesn't mean that Spirits were the ONLY, or even main, thing they offered

Funnily enough, Master Togo only utilizes 2 spirit skills in the Bonus Mission Pack where you control him. The rest is Channeling Magic, Restoration Magic, or his unique "Dragon Empire Rage" skill. In the regular main story Factions missions Togo only uses 1 spirit with the rest again being Channeling, Restoration, or weapon spell type magic. So if Togo was to be the next Rev elite, then it's likely the elite's skills would have few, if any, spirits involved at all.

His skill bar from GW1's missions can be found here:https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Master_Togo

[draxynnic.3719]

Channeling magic is just that, though: Direct damage attack spells. A channeling build basically let you build a Ritualist to behave like an air elementalist. Combine with Restoration, and you were able to essentially mimic an Ele/Mo without being penalised for the lack of Divine Favour. And even then, it was usually advantageous to have, at the very least, a cheap spirit that would set off conditional effects. As you pointed out yourself, Togo did have a couple of spirit skills - in fact, being able to bring in a total of 4 spirits made him a pretty effective spirit spammer in the mission pack until Signet of Spirits got redesigned to have a similar effect.

Every profession, in GW2, has damage-dealing capability. Orb of Wrath was described in Sea of Sorrows as a ball of lightning around the same time as Guardian was said to be a mix of monk, ritualist, and Elonian protective magic - the most likely source out of that lot for guardian to get something lightning-esque is Channeling magic. A lot of necromancer skills have a distinct spectral theme, which in GW1 would have mostly been in the ritualist's domain rather than the necromancer's.

Channeling builds weren't really a new playstyle - they were a way to get a DPS spellcaster playstyle out of Ritualist. Spirit weapons were basically enchantments which traded being unremovable for only being able to have one at a time. Urns were basically unremovable self-buffs that replaced your weapon. Neither really represented a playstyle in and of themselves - in fact, their mechanics actively discouraged you from loading too many of them. They were, at most, unique tools that supported already existing playstyles. And in GW2 terms, they'd probably be interpreted as being something like kits, conjures, or venoms... and I really don't think we need a legend that overloads on those.

Spirits are what ritualists are associated with for good reason - they were the unique thing that ritualists brought to the table. Sure, you could make ritualist builds without using them, but it was clear that they were supposed to be the main focus.

So, what'd happen if we had urns/spirit weapons as a revenant legend thing? Well, either you'd get overloaded with them or, more likely, you'd just have one or two on the bar. Which means that... there are only one or two of them in the profession at all. You don't have a set to choose from, you just automatically get the one you're assigned as part of the elite specialisation or as part of the legend, because, as I've been banging on about, That. Is. How. Revenant. Works.

If urns or weapon spells were to make a comeback, don't you think it would be better for them to come as utilities for a regular profession, so you can have six of them, and choose which one you could use rather than just having the one you're assigned? I know I would.

Revenant core mechanics just don't allow them to replicate ritualist behaviour. Meanwhile, it has so much potential for bringing in themes that just wouldn't fit anywhere else, that would be wasted if continued attempts are made to make a bad copy of the ritualist on a base profession that just isn't suited for it.

People really need to stop reducing Revenants to pretend Ritualists.

[Fueki.4753]

@draxynnic.3719 said:So, what'd happen if we had urns/spirit weapons as a revenant legend thing? Well, either you'd get overloaded with them or, more likely, you'd just have one or two on the bar. Which means that... there are only one or two of them in the profession at all. You don't have a set to choose from, you just automatically get the one you're assigned as part of the elite specialisation or as part of the legend, because, as I've been banging on about, That. Is. How. Revenant. Works.

And the same thing you lament about happened with Herald and Renegade as well.The are overloaded with facets and Charr ghosts, which not all of them are useful.I hardly ever use the Might facet and the elite Facet is basically useless against any halfway decent player with one CC off cooldown in PvP.Renegade's Summons are only situational at best. I hardly see any situation to use Darkrazor and Icerazor, as they are dead most of the time anyway, before having an effect.

Also, what's the problem with the bar being full of urns and Weapon Spells and just using a few of them?The Energy mechanic implies that you aren't supposed to use all of the Utility skills anyway.That is, as you repeatedly mentioned, how Revenant works.

And there will be people, that feel an Urn-based or a Weapon Spell-based Revenant elite will feel closer to Ritualist to them than Renegade ever could, because that is how they played Ritualist.

[draxynnic.3719]

A lot of people who actually put effort in making revenant work would disagree with you there. On all points. The only elite specialisation skill I don't see getting much use is Razorclaw, which is barely worthwhile even in the most ideal conditions and a waste of space on the bar otherwise.

The energy mechanic does imply that you're not supposed to use all of them, but here's the question I don't think any of you people have answered: How the flying kitten do you SEE urns and weapon spells working? Because a bar full of kits and conjures on a profession that also has a different legend to swap to and regular weaponswap? It's going to be a little bit ridiculous. Just a little bit. Not even worth mentioning, really. We're only talking about a bar that will have 40 skills total on it, before we even get to the function-key skills. No biggie.

It's also not how Ritualist ever used those skill types. Urns were usually a matter of picking the ONE that fit with your build. I mean, I guess you could theoretically do that with a hypothetical urn legend too, but in the meantime the rest of the slots are being wasted, while the existing legends have skills that are at least in principle designed to work together even if they compete for energy. Weapon spells were, again, usually a matter of picking the one, maybe two, that fit with your team build, because they didn't stack with one another. You shouldn't be trying to replicate Ritualist on Revenant mechanics. Revenant doesn't work that way. You should be trying to replicate Ritualist on profession that has a normal usage of utility skills, because that's how Ritualist worked. Ritualist, when not going full spirit spammer, was about putting together a custom build from a variety of skill types, not simply having one set of skills you get as a package. That's how revenant works.

Seriously, renegade was the closest to ritualist revenant is ever likely to get. I'm fairly confident in predicting that if you did get a Togo legend or whatever, you won't be happy with the result and will be back next expansion (if there is one) demanding a third try and revenant's true potential to shine on its own will be squandered. There are so many beings of legend, who aren't ritualists, who don't fit nicely into any profession, that revenant could be drawing inspiration from.

Want a ritualist substitute? Let's look at necromancer. Already has a death-related theme. Already has spectral themes, in fact. Minion bombing was something that was done with Rt/Ns, so that playstyle will persist, and Flesh Wurm is already a kind of turret similar to old ritualists. Maybe you could have a special graphical effect where all the minions turn ghostly (something we see in a few areas of the game, like some of Draithor's minions IIRC). Life Force could be used to summon a spirit that uses Life Force as health. Mainhand or 2-handed weapon that has attacks with a Channeling theme. Utility skills could be urns, which could bring a variety of skills, including, potentially, spirits and a GW2 equivalent of weapon spells for allies. You could have a restoration urn for healing, a communing urn for protection, a channeling urn for REALLY calling down the channeling magic damage, and still have space for three more.to spread out the options... while still having the option to pick out other utilities that fit the theme like minions and spectral skills rather than being forced to take urns that you're not going to use.

Doesn't that sound better than some faux 'ritualist' that is just one set of skills and a weapon, take it or leave it, which spends half its time in a legend which is either Ventari or something that is distinctly Not Even A Little Bit Ritualist-Like?

People really, really need to stop reducing Revenants to fake Ritualists.

[Fueki.4753]

@draxynnic.3719 said:Seriously, renegade was the closest to ritualist revenant is ever likely to get.This again, like the original point I quoted, is your own, personal opinion.It is far from being a fact.

As I pointed out, other people have seen, used and felt Ritualist in entirely different ways.It is very well possible to emulate R/A, R/D and R/W melee-focussed Ritualists with Weapon Spells, which would function as temporary, unique personal buffs, like they were in GW1. They wouldn't need to function like Kits or Conjures at all.Urns might be a stretch, but they could function as F-skills, like Firebrand's tomes.To you, these play styles might not feel to what Ritualists feels in your opinion, but for others these styles would end up feeling significantly closer to Ritualist than Renegade could ever get.

I personally enjoyed my melee Ritualists with 3-4 Weapon skills, and multiple Weapon Spells and much as I enjoyed my pure Caster and Healer Ritualists.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Fueki.4753" said:But people need to stop reducing Ritualists to Spirits.

True. Spirits were/are useful but ultimately, when I was playing ritualist, it wasn't necessarily what I relied the most on. Both ashes and weapon spell were very useful and you could make builds centered around their use like you could make builds centered around spirits. I mean, what kind of ritualist never used a vengeful was kanhei / vengeful weapon farm build? what kind of ritualist never used a splinter weapon / spirit rift build? The only legit reserve I can see is that both ashes and weapon spells seem to heavily revolve around a human pantheon of "heroes" and ANet devs can very well believe that boons simply replace weapon spells while legend replace ashes.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:Seriously, renegade was the closest to ritualist revenant is ever likely to get.This again, like the original point I quoted, is

your own, personal opinion.

It is

far

from being a fact.

As I pointed out,

other people

have seen, used and felt Ritualist in entirely different ways.It is very well possible to emulate R/A, R/D and R/W melee-focussed Ritualists with Weapon Spells, which would function as temporary, unique personal buffs, like they were in GW1. They wouldn't need to function like Kits or Conjures at all.Urns might be a stretch, but they could function as F-skills, like Firebrand's tomes.

To you,

these play styles might not feel to what Ritualists feels

in your opinion,

but for

others

these styles would end up feeling significantly closer to Ritualist than Renegade could ever get.

I personally enjoyed my melee Ritualists with 3-4 Weapon skills, and multiple Weapon Spells and much as I enjoyed my pure Caster and Healer Ritualists.

Okay, so you don't actually want Ritualist. You want one of those Rt/(Melee Profession) builds that behave like a (Melee Profession)/Rt, but trade the higher base armour of the melee profession for more damage through Spirit's Strength. Except that you still have the higher armour because revenant is a heavy armour profession.

In which case, I think it's guaranteed that the collective "you" would keep complaining, because other people who have been demanding that revenant be turned into ritualist definitely are thinking of a spellcaster-type ritualist.

I still don't think revenant is the right core profession for that sort of thing, because, again, of how it works. Normal operation for revenant to get 'short term unique buffs' is through upkeep skills. Jalis essentially summons a trio of guardian-style spirit weapons, but apparently they don't count. Shiro has an upkeep that increases damage, and used to increase attack rate. Devastation has a set of traits which build up stack that provide lifesteal. So what exactly are you expecting that isn't the sort of thing revenant already gets through the regular legends? A right-hand side of the bar full of venom-type skills? I think revenant can do better than that... and I think any such approach would still work better on a regular profession that can choose to have just one or two rather than committing to a whole half-bar of them.

Revenant has more potential than that.

[Fueki.4753]

@draxynnic.3719 said:Okay, so you don't actually want Ritualist.This, again, is your opinion.You don't get to decide what Ritualist means to others.Just because you think it doesn't feel like Ritualist, doesn't have to mean anything on how others feels.

It may not feel like Ritualist to you, but Renegade doesn't feel like one to me either.

[Dadnir.5038]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:Seriously, renegade was the closest to ritualist revenant is ever likely to get.This again, like the original point I quoted, is

your own, personal opinion.

It is

far

from being a fact.

As I pointed out,

other people

have seen, used and felt Ritualist in entirely different ways.It is very well possible to emulate R/A, R/D and R/W melee-focussed Ritualists with Weapon Spells, which would function as temporary, unique personal buffs, like they were in GW1. They wouldn't need to function like Kits or Conjures at all.Urns might be a stretch, but they could function as F-skills, like Firebrand's tomes.

To you,

these play styles might not feel to what Ritualists feels

in your opinion,

but for

others

these styles would end up feeling significantly closer to Ritualist than Renegade could ever get.

I personally enjoyed my melee Ritualists with 3-4 Weapon skills, and multiple Weapon Spells and much as I enjoyed my pure Caster and Healer Ritualists.

Okay, so you don't actually want Ritualist. You want one of those Rt/(Melee Profession) builds that behave like a (Melee Profession)/Rt, but trade the higher base armour of the melee profession for more damage through Spirit's Strength. Except that you still have the higher armour because revenant is a heavy armour profession.

In which case, I think it's

guaranteed

that the collective "you" would keep complaining, because

other

people who have been demanding that revenant be turned into ritualist definitely

are

thinking of a spellcaster-type ritualist.

I still don't think revenant is the right core profession for that sort of thing, because, again, of how it works. Normal operation for revenant to get 'short term unique buffs' is through upkeep skills. Jalis essentially summons a trio of guardian-style spirit weapons, but apparently they don't count. Shiro has an upkeep that

increases damage

, and used to increase

attack rate

. Devastation has a set of traits which build up stack that provide

lifesteal

. So what exactly are you expecting that isn't the sort of thing revenant already gets through the regular legends? A right-hand side of the bar full of venom-type skills? I think revenant can do better than that... and I think any such approach would still work better on a regular profession that

can

choose to have just one or two rather than committing to a whole half-bar of them.

Revenant has more potential than that.

I tend to agree with Fueki there. You're narrowing your view of the GW ritualist to spirits and that's the issue he/she point out.

For me, the revenant is already a ritualist.

Each legend is an urn/ash/item spell specialized into a certain gameplay. Weapon spells have been replaced by the "rigid" set of common boons just like the countless boons in GW were themselves reduced to this rigid set. However, I can also see the shadow of the weapon spells in facet of nature/true nature, Heroic command/order from above and even ancient echo/spirit boon/song of the mist. It's not wrong to also say that both Kalla and Ventari already express the "spirit gameplay" of the ritualist.

Personally, as someone that enjoyed playing ritualist I'd like to see either more focus on the "ashes" (through a transformation skill on F2) or more focus on the "lightning spellcaster" aspect of the ritualist being expressed into the next e-spec (and none of those aspect should really need to deal with "spirits").