FRACTAL LEAVERS - plea to create a punish system for those who leave groups

[Excursion.9752]

Pug groups are just that Pug groups. While I can relate and understand your frustration I don't believe punishing makes the game mode healthy so to speak. Because if your going to punish people for leaving why not punish the people for kicking? That is the other side of this coin.

Most cases when some one leaves it is probably for the best because you don't want someone in your group that does not want to be there. No contract was signed to join the group unless we are bound by the description or lack there of in a LFG window.

The solution is and always will be making a static group. A second best solution is at least having 1 or 2 others that will play with you nightly so you don't have as many pugs in your group.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Anen.1742 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Anen.1742 said:But the real question is why would I wait ages for a CM only group to form when there are multiples CM+T4?Oh, i don't know. Respect for other people, maybe?

I am guessing that by respect you mean making them wait after i leave.No. I mean respecting the LFG requirements and wishes of the people that posted them. The group that posted the LFG has certain expectations for people they are looking for. You, by intending to leave partway, are knowingly not fulfilling those expectations (and you give no warning to them beforehand). Which means you do not respect them - you care only about your own personal needs, and you are perfectly willing to lie in order to obtain them. It's no different than joining a group with high KP requirements that want someone experienced and knowing the fight as a new player, and faking the KPs using chatcodes.

Do you have data to support the fact that the wait after I leave is longer that the wait of me non joining the party in the first place?Doesn't matter - that's

their

decision to make. Not yours.

[Linken.6345]

@Anen.1742 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Anen.1742 said:But the real question is why would I wait ages for a CM only group to form when there are multiples CM+T4?Oh, i don't know. Respect for other people, maybe?

I am guessing that by respect you mean making them wait after i leave.Do you have data to support the fact that the wait after I leave is longer that the wait of me non joining the party in the first place?

To add to Astralporing.1957 reply above.

Another reason is a cm player is alot smoother to go through normal t4s with then to do a lfg for only t4 and get a person who only do t4s.

Or are you expecting them to be mean and advertise cm+t4s and only do t4s?

[knite.1542]

@Anen.1742 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Anen.1742 said:But the real question is why would I wait ages for a CM only group to form when there are multiples CM+T4?Oh, i don't know. Respect for other people, maybe?

I am guessing that by respect you mean making them wait after i leave.Do you have data to support the fact that the wait after I leave is longer that the wait of me non joining the party in the first place?

The fact that you even have to ask that question is sad. If you knew you were being a jerk and didn't care, that would be one thing. But you don't even think that what you are doing is inconsiderate lol.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Anen.1742" said:I am regularly joining CM + T4 groups to only play CM, leaving after 98CM.Some people even go as far as calling me names in wispers after i left... Just man up and use your keyboard to open lfg instead of wispering me.

But the real question is why would I wait ages for a CM only group to form when there are multiples CM+T4?It is also quite easy for the group to replace me only for T4, since the population for this is higher. The only time i feel a bit gilty is when a CM is also a daily T4.

Just an FYI in case you are new to fractals, this type of behavior gets you listed on player block lists fast. It certainly would get you on mine and most people I play with (and I have a couple of players on block for just that reason, lucky enough such behavior is rare). Usually with a note along the lines of "after CM leaver" or something similar.

Not a big concern initially, but if you run this content for months or years, you tend to run into the same names.

If you willingly decide to ingnore the LFG other players posted, don't be amazed if you ruffle feathers.

Now the fractal CM population might probably be large enough for such behavior to not cause issues in the short term, but guess what: most dedicated raiders are also fractal CM+T4 runners, and the raiding community is small enough at the top end to make you run into similar names. Having a reputation for being unreliable in one type of content is something which will burn a lot of bridges for playing any of content with certain players.

[Condutas.3580]

Two mistakes you are doing:

1º Joining a party in "LFG" and expecting perfection. It wasn't been like that at all in 2018, now in 2020 I can safely tell you, with less hardcore, active players and more newbies using "lfg", "I dont want to put any work but still get everything" kind of players, " lfg is the worst option for you to get high pve content done.

2º You can represent one guild but be in 5. Super easy to find a "fractal related guild", join them and do your dailys from there. Or get a static, same thing.

You need to understand that, when you are joining "lfg" for any high tier pvp content, you are already saying to yourselve "I am willing to gamble with absolutely strangers to get this content done". And when you gamble, you sometimes win, sometimes lose.

[lorddarkflare.9186]

Leaver penalties make a lot more sense with matchmade team content. Like PvP.With content like fractals, it think the solution is more robust LFG tools and training tools.

[Kichwas.7152]

@Anen.1742 said:I am regularly joining CM + T4 groups to only play CM, leaving after 98CM.

But the real question is why would I wait ages for a CM only group to form when there are multiples CM+T4?

Smart groups deal with this by running the 'least popular' item first.

Do T4 + CM instead of CM + T4.

Not just that, but do it as:T4 + rec + CM

And in fact... do T4 in numeric reverse - highest number first unless something like Molten Furnace Fractal or Sirens is in there - then do those first because people tend to leave over them. I'd recommend this priority order:

Molten Furnace Fractal -> Sunqua -> Sirens -> t1 recs -> t2 recs -> t3 recs -> reverse number order or t4 -> t4 rec -> CM

• Because that's basically putting the things people leave over first, and the things they will stick for last.

Groups that do this... I regularly see 1-2 people leave group after it forms but before the first item is run, so we can replace them while it's still fresh, and once we get in there people are a LOT LESS likely to leave.

CAVEAT: I'm only progressed into T3 - so some of the above is based on me believing the claims in the thread are true. And... for T1-3, the thing people leave over the most is Molten Furnace Fractal . Maybe by T4 player's have figured it out enough to have it 'on farm' and it won't belong on that list.

[Firebeard.1746]

So my question is this: in what context are people leaving?

And what's the sunken cost that justifies punishing people so brutally?

I completely agree it's impolite to join a group for dailies and leave after 1, and I do my best not to. But I've had times I've had to do this and so I don't judge when others have to.

If we were talking M+ dungeons in WoW where you have waste who knows how many hours trying to level your key again, I'd say I'd agree with you, but Anet handed us a low ball here as far as ease of picking back up again goes, just find someone new.

If you want to be REALLY sure people won't bail on you at the drop of a hat, try setting up a fractal group with guildies. When you PuG you get PuG behavior.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

If leavers bother you so much, you might wanna join in fractal related discord community. Players have tools to "punish" ppl with bad behavior more easily out side of the game.

[Fangoth.4503]

or be nice and play well, i never saw someone leave a group than run smoothly ;)

[Hesione.9412]

@"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:Not a huge fan of the entire punishment mentality in general. Humans do not respond well to any kind of punishments, improvement usually come at a very high cost. Most punishments do more harm than good. I would like to use the opposite approach and reward sticking to the team:

• Create a buff called "Part of the Team"
• Upon creating a party, entering the first Fractal, that buff has one stack
• After completing a fractal, your buff stacks up
• When you leave the party, the buff remains 10 more minutes
• When you enter a new team, you start from scratch again - even if that team already did 3 fractals before you have joined, they continue at 3 stacks, you start a 1 stack

That buff could grant minor loot enhancements such as

• chance for bonus Relics on kill
• Magic Find
• Increased gold/EXP gain

This would improve the situation, promote the idea of playing Fractals in a group for an extended time. In addition, Fractal runs outside the dailies would be promoted as well. However, thanks to our genius farmers, we have to double-check to prevent abuse of the system. Else there would be groups just grinding stacks in T1 fractals and doing their CM/T4/Rec after.

• the buff only increases by one for each fractal of each tier, doing UB 15 times in a row would not cause 15 stacks
• the buff should have a cap of ~ 10 stacks

I think this is a good idea. Reward pro-social behaviour rather than punishing less pro-social behaviour.

[lare.5129]

@"Kichwas.7152" said:Smart groups deal with this by running the 'least popular' item first.Do T4 + CM instead of CM + T4.don't see nothing smart. So if someone want do fast4 and to lazy do cms will break this "smartness"

T4 + rec + CMsame here too. Also I am try do in this order. It have more stronger fail: in this groups fail % is bigger than in common then CM part strart in this order .. So t4 done, rec done, CM - people die .. again die. again die .. people leave, and you need only cms .. but not one join ? and people write cm+t4, and leave after cm ? lol

[Dark.8093]

Lol, the author better punish himself and leave the computer. Fractal is handled by a cleaning lady and there will be no positive changes. Look at the only fractal we were given! The bug on the bug, and also the shovels are banned. The community encourages the pseudonym, even if they do not know how to play it, instead of a comfortable passage try to play speedran, any deviation from the imbecile dogmas is immediately punishable by hysterics in the chat, in the person, the exclusion from the group, ignoring.

The arena does not want to interfere, the arena breaks our instruments for the passage, why did you create this top? You'll be the first to suffer if the developer hears you.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[Fangoth.4503]

also if you add a punishement for leaving, rather than leaving player will just go afk/screw the group over and avoid the punishment by being kick.if you add punishement for kicking beginer/bad player will have even harder time to progress as they will be most of the time under punishment but it would help group with high requirement to get competant players : =)

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

Ok, before I give my oppinion about this subject, I do want to know first how you see this implemented with regards to people that disconnect or crash.So basically the set of rules that makes sure that someone that crashes doesn't get punished over the ones deliberately leaving the group hanging.

... and there lies your problem with this suggestion to be honest. There is NO real way to recognize the difference unless you have a input sensor telling you someone actually clicked to leave the group. A method I very much doubt Anet wants to implement.

Secondly. What is a Fractal Leaver.I often join pug groups, but when clearing takes longer than expected, I have to leave the group.I NEVER leave during a run, but after will leave after telling why.Punishable?I very much doubt it.

This post is a bit: You leave, you get punished without a clear definition on what is unacceptable.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

It's easy, rework the fractals to now be a chain. Queue them up and immediately go from one to the next with no inbetween to Dessa's lab. Doing it this way gives your group increased rewards at the end of the final one in the queue if all fractals are a daily (CMs don't break this chain). Those that leave before you get to Dessa's lab are robbed of the increased rewards and have to deal with a 5 minute dishonor where they can't use the LFG.

[Merrex.5384]

1. The players who advertise a fresh T ( whatever number pick one ) group only to find out it is not honestly fresh its just one fractal and they all leave. People do this for a few reasons. They can not get a group to run just the one fractal they need so they lie and say they are doing all of them then leave after getting what they need or want.

2. You join a group and find out 1 or 2 players do not have the required AR to run the Fractal they already know they do not have enough and are just looking for other players to carry them through it even if they die a lot. Mostly its done because of greed they want the loot but do not want to earn it. This does not happen that often but it does happen I will not carry anyone I had to earn my right to run higher fractals with high AR if I can do it then so can others its not even that hard to get AR some players are just lazy.

3. I see people listing fractals in the wrong LFG section like recs in the T4 LFG section. All Recs are tecnically T3 and lower.

4. I see people posting for a group and I join and I zone in half way through a Fractal with mobs attacking me And it turns out its not even a fractal they had listed. So guess what yah I am gonna just quit on them does this make me a bad person ?

5. If I join a group and they do not have a clue what they are doing and they do not speak english and I just quit on them am I a bad person ?

6. If I quit on a group after they have wiped 5 times and I tell them I am leaving after this if we wipe does this make me a bad person ?

Time is important to some people if I join a T2 + group I expect a basic level of understanding fractals from the other players. I know that some players can pay money to just go right into higher level fractals instead of earning it the hard way. If you join a T3 or T4 fractal you should have the Agony Resistance and know how to run that fractal and if you do not you should get kicked. Do not join a T4 fractal and tell the other players this is your first time playing fractals and expect a warm welcome and have them all willing to teach you the ropes.Sometimes quitting the group is the only option some players will not listen to reason or they do not care that this is your 5th wipe with no healer. Sometimes Quitting the group is the only way to maintain ones Sanity !

They could impellent a system that will not allow you to even enter a certain level fractal without a certain level of AR that would be a easy thing to do. If they can make it happen with harvesting tools I am sure they can make it happen with fractals.

[Evidev.3046]

I often leave party whenever another dps and bs are bad :) Not my fault, their fault.

[Aeon.4583]

Ok, but will there be punish system for false advertising too?It is not everyday thing, but it still happens.Player joins party with T4 daily + Rec description, but this party already did two T4s. Player leave, because he\she looking for full T4 run.Why this should be punished?In the end player who leave party in half way throught T4 daily, possibly been victim to false advertising, and leaving group half way it's just a means to complete missing T4s.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Aeon.4583 said:Ok, but will there be punish system for false advertising too?It is not everyday thing, but it still happens.Player joins party with T4 daily + Rec description, but this party already did two T4s. Player leave, because he\she looking for full T4 run.Why this should be punished?In the end player who leave party in half way throught T4 daily, possibly been victim to false advertising, and leaving group half way it's just a means to complete missing T4s.Player makes an LFG looking for experienced players. Not everyone agrees that player is experienced enough. Argument ensues, some players leave. Now support needs to decide who to punish, and to what degree.I'm pretty sure they would so much like to see those kinds of cases [/sarcasm]

[Pip.2094]

So... if I am in a team with kittens I just have to stick to it till the end? Not even if they pay me and well.If I am in a team that struggles way too much, I should stay with it and go through hell for a full run with even the chance to fail and have wasted up to hours for no rewards? No thanks.

[Nightcore.5621]

If u punish People to much in a game in the end People Will just stop play the game and play something else.

[Tiilimon.6094]

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:It's easy, rework the fractals to now be a chain. Queue them up and immediately go from one to the next with no inbetween to Dessa's lab. Doing it this way gives your group increased rewards at the end of the final one in the queue if all fractals are a daily (CMs don't break this chain). Those that leave before you get to Dessa's lab are robbed of the increased rewards and have to deal with a 5 minute dishonor where they can't use the LFG.

Carrot is always better than the stick, best idea so far.. But...

If someone leaves, it's gonna be hard af to get a replacement.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

@Tiilimon.6094 said:

@"Sir Alymer.3406" said:It's easy, rework the fractals to now be a chain. Queue them up and immediately go from one to the next with no inbetween to Dessa's lab. Doing it this way gives your group increased rewards at the end of the final one in the queue if all fractals are a daily (CMs don't break this chain). Those that leave before you get to Dessa's lab are robbed of the increased rewards and have to deal with a 5 minute dishonor where they can't use the LFG.

Carrot is always better than the stick, best idea so far.. But...

If someone leaves, it's gonna be hard af to get a replacement.

Yeah, thinking about it, the only thing I can think of is this:

If you, as a player, haven't had the dishonor debuff at all this reset, you gain all tier rewards as though you were there the whole time (Not CM rewards or the daily rewards for completing a specific level) at the end. Kicking players doesn't give them the debuff unless they're hitting the afk timer. Fractals should have the same AFK timer as PvP (roughly 1 minute) so people can't abuse this to avoid getting dishonor.

Now for the people who disconnect/alt+F4. Players who disconnect and don't log back on (Either on purpose or because the internet cuts out) don't get dishonor if they're removed from the group and don't log back in for 5 minutes. You, legit, won't get kicked from most parties if your internet goes out for a moment or your connection drops for a minute. Players who disconnect multiple times (Be it bad internet or trying to get kicked for jumping in and out) void this and gain dishonor on being kicked. This dishonor debuff can be tweaked depending. 5 minutes for the first time, 10 for the second, 30 for the third, an hour for the fourth, fifth, and so on.

If this dishonor stuff is too much, just make something like a "Fractal streak" where the more times you finish all dailies in a row without leaving or breaking parties, the more rewards you gain up to a point.