Revenant needs more weapon choices ASAP

[Buran.3796]

I have no problems with the "lack of customization" of the utility skills because the legend swap mechanics can compensate the stiffness of that approach, but weapons entirely useless as the hammer must be erased from the game. Also, the blueprint of the design of the class was to rely in energy consumption, which was true at the release, but now the Rev has cooldowns everywhere, so is like a regular dude but worse, because on top of cooldowns has to pay energy... ant what cost! The breakstun in Jalis, which is supposed to be the "tanky legend" costs 40 units! You swap legend, cast one skill and remain the next 9 legends casting autos... Utter trash.

[draxynnic.3719]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:One could say that the need for a condi weapon is a core only issue.

Also, this has been brought up before on this forum before and several of the vocal Vets will argue incessantly that you just need to run Renegade for condi and that you should forget about having a core option, so dont expect support from the frequent fliers

The entire point of elite specs is to fill in gaps in the core class and add new playstyles.

Core doesn’t need to be viable for all things (plus Condi core rev is still decently viable even without renegade; it’s just a step down to run it when you can just run Ren instead).

I couldnt disagree more on literally everything you said.

Unfortunately for you it doesn’t matter if you disagree with me or not.

This is Anet’s stance on Elite Specs and has been since Heart of Thorns

There is nothing about elites that suggest your conclusion.

Completely untrue and Anet doesn’t agree with you.

Anet LITERALLY states my conclusion. It’s not even my conclusion, it’s theirs.

Look at many of the classes that have multiple builds with core and the same type of builds with elites. There is no reason you can't have a viable core Condi class.

This is completely class dependent. There is no hard or fast rule here. However

every class has gaps in their core builds, which is what elite specs are intended to address as Anet has said themselves on many occasions

Though your argument fails, in general its true that elites are more powerful.

I’m going to state this a 4th time because you apparently didn’t understand it the first time I said it.

Anet’s stance on Elite Specs is that they are supposed to add new playstyles and help fill in gaps in the core classes.

This isn’t a matter of “my argument fails” (which it very literally doesn’t since it’s not even my argument) it’s a matter of “these are the design decisions that Anet themselves have chosen.”

I’m not sure how the creators of their own game can be wrong about the reasons why they make certain design decisions.

There is a complete disconnect with that vs core have a Second Condi Weapon that could be used on Core or Herald or any other Elite in the future.

So, Renegade fails to add what is missing on core and herald concerning additional weapons.

False. Renegade adds a ranged condi option and stronger options for condi damage, something that core is lacking. Herald adds additional boon support and defensive options, as well as additional ways to utilize Upkeep skills. Neither Herald nor Renegade fail in adding to the core class effectively. These are objectively true observations.

You are free to be bold, caps, or repeat you line over and over about Anets claimed intent, you simple fail to show it with logic and evidence.

Again, these are Anet’s statements NOT my own.

This is common knowledge since before Heart of Thorns released.

it’s as if you don’t even read my words since you keep arguing with me telling me my argument doesn’t make sense,

when it’s not even my argument; it’s the developer’s.

You want evidence? Here’s some evidence for you. The Heart of Thorns Elite Specialization Release page.

https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/specializations/

Tempest: “With the design of this elite specialization we’re aiming to add a more direct frontline support option (for elementalist) that rewards precise positioning.”

Dragonhunter: “

When we set out on the search for the guardian's elite specialization, we looked for areas in which the guardian lacked a solid role.

It turns out that wielding light and virtue as power sources is actually somewhat difficult to do, and

a guardian's abilities are fairly short range

or unconventional in their application.

We thought about how the guardian might handle long-range combat

and supporting allies while fighting on the back lines.”

These are fairly easy to find quotes, however, they’ve commented on this in a much deeper way through video and text interviews. I don’t feel like further digging through 6 years worth of interviews to find more of their statements. Their intention that Elite Specs are supposed to expand upon core specs and fill in gaps/expand playstyles is clear through their statements. As mentioned this is common knowledge. Now some of the evidence is directly in front of your face.

You can choose to disregard it if you want since it doesn’t fit your worldview, but it’s still irrelevant because Anet has been explicitly clear with their intentions for elite specs for 6+ years.

Those are... shockingly bad examples. The only 'standoff' application dragonhunter has is that longbow was, in the days of lootstick staff and you-can-outrun-the-projectiles-with-Swiftness scepter, longbow provided a viable ranged weapon for moving targets. Nerfs to longbow along with changes to scepter and staff mean that you need to do a fair amount of hunting to find a popular dragonhunter build that actually uses longbow, and nobody uses dragonhunter specifically to get access to longbow any more. Everything else in dragonhunter's kit just enhances something that core guardian was already good at - area power damage at close range, and survivability.

Tempest essentially took a close-in support role that elementalist was already good at by pre-HoT standards, and upgraded it to HoT standards. Remember that it was intended design pre-HoT that support was fairly weak, which is why the only core professions that have good support by modern standards are the revenant and those like the engineer that had a post-HoT redesign.

Nitpicking your examples aside, though, a fundamental distinction is that there are some things that are intended to be a weakness in the core profession, and some things that are shortfalls that have come about accidentally through changes in balance and design.

Consider the core guardian, for instance. Its strengths on release were close-in area power damage, high survivability, and good (for the time) support. However, it had a weak stand-off game and limited condition damage play (having no condi weapons, only having access to burning when it came to damaging conditions, and that mostly coming from traits, utilities, and VoJ). Ironically, one of those weaknesses has been ironed out somewhat by the aforementioned changes to staff and scepter, and core guardian's condition game has been improved by trait reworks so that a burning-oriented core guardian is actually viable. However, the core condi guard is still working pretty much entirely off traits and utilities, and there is no traitline that is built around conditions - every traitline that guardian has with condition-oriented options would work just as well for a power build with different individual trait selections.

Now, look at core revenant. Conditions are CLEARLY expected to be a viable playstyle for core revenant. Spear, back in the day when spear was the only underwater weapon revenant had, was so deliberately set up as a hybrid weapon that it effectively had two autoattacks, one for inflicting conditions at range, one for inflicting power damage in melee. Mace is a dedicated condition weapon, and Corruption/Mallyx has always had the assumption that if you're using them, you're using them with a condi build. One out of five core traitlines, one out of four legends (and the others can still support a condi build, albeit generally not as well as they do power) and one out of four autoattack-capable weapons is a pretty significant investment towards condi rev to make the claim that condi rev was intended to be a gap that gets filled with elite specialisations. Especially considering that neither of the elite specialisations really commit to conditions. Renegade has a hybrid shortbow and a few condi-oriented traits because it kinda had to, but Kalla's legend skills work better with power builds. Condition play isn't an intended gap in the core kit to be filled by an elite specialisation, it's intended to be part of the core kit.

The reason why core revenant doesn't have a good weaponswap for conditions is simple - when the weapons were being designed, revenant was intended to be a no-weaponswap profession, so a lack of suitable weaponswap options just wasn't a problem. Ironically, in fact, mace/axe was probably the one set that actually worked as a weaponset for a non-weaponswap profession, since it combined being a good melee weaponset with enough standoff capabilities that you weren't completely reduced to thumb-twiddling if going into melee wasn't viable for whatever reason. Which is why core condi revenant (and condi herald) is something that actually somewhat works as long as the rest of the kit is strong enough - because camping mace and regarding the swap purely as a defensive and/or mobility option is a workable approach. The fact remains, however, that since core is supposed to allow for condi builds, core should have a suitable weaponswap for condi builds. There's precedent in trident for introducing a new core weapon to fill this sort of gap, and it's better than requiring every future revenant elite to have at least a hybrid weapon if that elite is to be considered suitable for condition builds.

Ideally it should also be ranged, because having only one ranged core weapon makes the profession, including any present or future elite specs that don't bring their own ranged weapon, really sensitive to the state of balance of that weapon.

[Arcaneus.6931]

Or maybe they could have just had it so Legends changed your weapon abilities as well, so some legends would change weapon abilities to melee and others would change them to long range and have them match legends utility. This would have also would have made no-weapon swap thing more viable for the class.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Arcaneus.6931 said:Or maybe they could have just had it so Legends changed your weapon abilities as well, so some legends would change weapon abilities to melee and others would change them to long range and have them match legends utility. This would have also would have made no-weapon swap thing more viable for the class.

Possibly they could have, but that would probably require making four different versions of each weapon just for core and then each core weapon would need to be remade every time a new legend was introduced. Would be fairly cool if they could pull it off, but it'd have been a big ask to call for back during HoT's development, let alone now.

That said, being a little less ambitious, it could offer a possible solution of making hammer have different effects depending on legend, similar to how trident works. That way, hammer could be a condi weapon when used with Mallyx, a support weapon when used with Ventari, and so on.

[Arcaneus.6931]

@draxynnic.3719 said:Possibly they could have, but that would probably require making four different versions of each weapon just for core and then each core weapon would need to be remade every time a new legend was introduced. Would be fairly cool if they could pull it off, but it'd have been a big ask to call for back during HoT's development, let alone now.

That said, being a little less ambitious, it could offer a possible solution of making hammer have different effects depending on legend, similar to how trident works. That way, hammer could be a condi weapon when used with Mallyx, a support weapon when used with Ventari, and so on.

Honestly I'm not even sure why they even bothered making it if they didn't have the resources to fully flesh it out like the rest of the classes in the first place.They could have just gone with a Dark Knight class and made it more edgy warrior with dark magic or something low effort.

Currently it just feels like a waste of space for what could have been.

[Buran.3796]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

That said, being a little less ambitious, it could offer a possible solution of making hammer have different effects depending on legend, similar to how trident works. That way, hammer could be a condi weapon when used with Mallyx, a support weapon when used with Ventari, and so on.

The trident does a lot of physical damage, has small cooldowns, some skills are fast to cast and on top of that provides either condi damage (torment for Mallyx, fire for Glint) or debuffs (vulnerability with Shiro, weakness with Jalis). The hammer does little damage, has huge cast times and larger cooldowns; just adding some condis/debuffs to some bad skills won't make it viable. Guardian's hammer, which at its current state is considered "deplorable", is way ahead of Rev's hammer. I would love to have the Guardian or Scrapper hammer to use it with Jalis (or even the Warrior's hammer).

[MatyrGustav.6210]

I want Main Hand Sceptor and Long Bow

[Buran.3796]

By the way: take in consideration that at the time of chosing a weapon for a given spec for a class, ANet won't work "in the void". They have nine classes, and some of them already have have a lot of weapons (like the Warrior). So probably they will carefully call which weapon goes to the classes with less options available (example: giving the staff to the Warrior to make a warrior monk, or a scepter, or a pistol or focus, because there's very few weapons to chose for that class), and then will feed the next class. And one of the basics of that choices will be TO NOT REPEAT the same weapon for more than one class, so people will be more motivated to try to craft multiple legendary weapons, which are long term goals which keep people active and attached to the game. In that landscape, is plausible that the choice made for the Rev will end being one of the last ones, because isn't as full of weapons as some other classes.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Everyone seems to love trident mechanic and while it not bad per se it has 0 damage outside of Mallyx (and Glint if you run herald). The last thing i would want mace to do is apply vul/weakness instead of torment just bc i had to swap out of mallyx due to how energy mechanic work and suffer massive and i mean by that MASSIVE dps loss forcing me to run herald at all times. Its really not that good option.Now if all weapons were hybrid that could be a different story like they originally datamined skills with sword inflicting torment and burning as well long time ago.

Either way i was always against weapon swap, i still am and never really used it in all 3 modes (bar hammer for openings in wvw during my power days) and i wish they could remove it and rework legend system bc when you put the picture together rev is a mess in current state especially with how clunky and unfun it has become over the years compared to beta/launch times. First they overbloat/rework skills for no reason then instead of removing the bloat or bring back original skills (sword block) they just up the energy to a ridiculous level, slap cd and call it a day. Its not what rev was meant to be. The bias agains revenant is real when you compare it to thief who to this very day has 0 cd on weapon skills.

[Opopanax.1803]

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Everyone seems to love trident mechanic and while it not bad per se it has 0 damage outside of Mallyx (and Glint if you run herald). The last thing i would want mace to do is apply vul/weakness instead of torment just bc i had to swap out of mallyx due to how energy mechanic work and suffer massive and i mean by that MASSIVE dps loss forcing me to run herald at all times. Its really not that good option.Now if all weapons were hybrid that could be a different story like they originally datamined skills with sword inflicting torment and burning as well long time ago.

Either way i was always against weapon swap, i still am and never really used it in all 3 modes (bar hammer for openings in wvw during my power days) and i wish they could remove it and rework legend system bc when you put the picture together rev is a mess in current state especially with how clunky and unfun it has become over the years compared to beta/launch times. First they overbloat/rework skills for no reason then instead of removing the bloat or bring back original skills (sword block) they just up the energy to a ridiculous level, slap cd and call it a day. Its not what rev was meant to be. The bias agains revenant is real when you compare it to thief who to this very day has 0 cd on weapon skills.

I could see no weapon swap, and no CDs on weapons to go with that. I personally think energy AND CDs is a lame combination... feels like a quick fix that is pretty poorly done.

[Lonami.2987]

@"JayAction.9056" said:Title

From a pvp perspective Revenant is severely lacking any real choice.

Hammer is unviable in pvp and has always been even at its strongest in 2015.

Mace mainhand is only useful against people In gold as the way it targets and the lack of a snare makes the main source of damage from this weapon (#2 and #3) unreliable.

Shield is underpowered

Staff is underpowered and is never a weapon you will use other than to break pressure.

Shortbow is still a meme.

Axe is only really useful to a condo build as the power damage coefficients are too low.

Sword mainhand has been nerfed from a high burst high sustain main hand weapon to a 0 burst, moderate sustain only weapon.

The choices are basically made for you if you know how to do math and can logically assess how to combat flows in this game.

We need new weapon choices ASAP. AT LEAST 3 -THREE-

GreatswordDagger main hand and off handPistol

It’s bad enough that legends are stagnant choices and the trees can not be alternated much as most trees fulfil a dedicated conflicting role.

Start by enabling mace off-hand and axe main-hand. Then maybe add scepter, focus, and torch too. That would be fine for me.

Still, don't forget we have 20 slot skills, when all the other core professions have 27 (which they can customize, too). So yeah, this means core revenant needs another legend. Give us Bonfaaz Burntfur with a Searing Cauldron, same gameplay as Ventari but offensive instead of support, and I'd be a happy revenant.

[felix.2386]

more weapon? like having 15 weapons and only 3 of them being playable like on warrior? while the rest just cannibalizing each other.no point, I prefer now that every single weapon are playable(except hammer), definitely more viable weapon variation then warrior can ever dream ofmay as well fix hammer instead

[Crackmonster.2790]

Well, from the discussion it appears that bow needs to be changed/improve and it would solve a lot of problem. Gives the condi swap, gives the ranged condi, can work as a power wep also. It's supposed to fill that niche already, so instead of doing a new weapon to fill the same it should be improved. It has the paper dps so it's a matter of mechanics.

Also, something often overlooked is that while everyone sticking on the same class feels it's gutted so much over time all weapons butchered, so do all classes feel as it's just generally what happened to the game. So you really gotta know where it stands in relation to the realistic situation of other classes to find out what is good or bad. When i try out classes and i settle on one i think that works really well, always old players be like everything dead everytrhing shadow of self, all full bad.

[Buran.3796]

Ok, I will retract from some of my opinions from two months and half ago. Not about the hammer: I still think that is unbeliable weak at every game mode and is more due the reworks of its mechanics and not only due the nerf in the numbers, and should be either salvaged or reworked again.

But I have found finally some lovely things in the Renegade. Started to play with the PvE variants from Nike! (condi Renegade) and Paper Roll (condi and power Renegade) and found the power variant with Kalla + Jallis appealing for PvE. Not my favourite Rev build, but lets you to fight bot at mele and range, an option pretty much lacking with Herald, and performs greatly at soloing content. I tried then to make some viable iteration for PvP, since still I didn't like Kalla for competitive game modes, and my attempts to run the tanky builds which other (more capable) players than me made shine were futile. So made some tweaks and ended with a power Renegade version for PvP: tested it first at the 2 vs 2 mini season at January in which performed poorly (lack of experience, but mostly due mobility limitations in those maps). Made a change or two for this Conquest season and voila, suddenly not only works very well but also I enjoy playing it.

So, the short bow is now fairly good: I still think that #4 should be replaced by either a defensive or mobility tool, but now is a weapon which I enjoy using at both PvE and PvP/roaming. The PvP variant runs Shiro + Jalis, with Devastation 3,3,3; Invocation 1,2,2 and Renegade 1,2,2, and kills with sticks: a short bow and a staff. Did use Resistance but borrowed the rune of Speed from metabattle and works wonders (is not like there's much decent choices in the pool of runes, anyway). Superb mobility, very good sustain, hits hard, helps a lot in teamfights sharing boons and providing stability, cc, weakened foes and respectable burst, and when things go wrong just evades, disengages and fights in another place. No matter if the match ends in victory or defeat: is fun to play, and rewarding. Just a glimpse:

So I'll conceed that despite the problems (bugs, hammer, reduced options in weapons, unbalance in power vs condi at PvE...) the Revenant is in a good place currently. Power Herald is still strong at competitive game modes, despite the lost in flow and deep; condi Herald can work at every game mode, despite being restricted to mele combat; Renegade can work as condi or power at every game mode, and contrary to the Herald, the weapon, skills and traits are better now than when was released. By miles.

[Yasai.3549]

I'm still in the opinion that Hammer needs a rework to support itself as a Ranging weapon rather than a Sieging weapon.

A Ranging Weapon usually has tools baked in to support themselves in order to inflict Ranged damage while keeping the user safe.Ranger's LB, SBThief SB, DE RifleWarrior RifleEngi RifleAre all examples of Ranging weapons, featuring some CC or mobility or evade or even a mix of all 3 in order to protect the user and allow them to continue Ranging.(Sieging are stuff like Rev Shortbow, Warrior LB, DH LB where it just deals damage or CC and has no self preservation tools)

While Hammer is as a Sieging weapon is fine, it doesn't really fit any of the Core Legends for Revenant at all.Jalis is predominantly Melee and supports melee or midranged combatShiro is obviously an in-the-face assassin rush down oriented kitVentari is a healer (whatevs)Mallyx is also a rushdown and control kit

I think what needs to be done is :Hammer Autos can have shorter range (900?) but made hitscan and hits targets directly. (OP in Zerg?)Hammer 2 could maybe be like Guardian's Hammer 3 which is a line of damageHammer 3 can be a roll backwards while knocking back enemies within 130 range. (should it still have an evade?)Hammer 4 can have the same function but does not remove itself if yu swap out of Hammer.I guess with projectiles gone, it will be less effective, but at least yu can still use things to Leap through it (Like Sword 5)Hammer 5 can be the same but have SOME damage back on it. (Afterall Scrapper stun still has damage, so why Warrior, Rev and Guardian hammer got shafted is meh)