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It would be fantastic to have Melee Attack Assist for all characters, Please Anet


anduriell.6280

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We need that characteristic activated as soon as we get out from respawn, so we can not go across enemies.This is very important as being able to go thru enemy models make some game mechanics totally redundant and following pain points:

  • Teleport utilities from Thief, scourge and Mesmer are useless because you can go thru the enemy blob
  • This forces squads to tend to meatball formation because the enemy can reach easily the backline, so the best strategy is to keep all close and spam utilities. There is no strategy involved in squad distribution, just keep all models together.
  • This cause the game to have very bad performance spikes. As all players tend to stay in the same spot it causes the servers and your personal computers to handle much more information than it would if the squad would be better distributed in better defined roles.
  • Warrior doesn't have any use in WvW because it can not perform the role of tank. It can not block enemies.
  • It greatly reduces the number of roles in the squad. Because there is no zoning all there is no clear design for backline support or melee tank.
  • No meaningful defense strategy can be built. The choke points lose all it's effectiveness as the enemy can just pass thru
  • All this pain points only benefit the bigger groups exponentially making a waste of time to fight against a bigger group, tendency you can see in most blob fights and stacking servers.

To mitigate all this i propose :

  • Activate Melee attack assists to all enemy models (including NPCs).
  • Disable "F to Revive" while the player is in combat. Players can only revive allies using the skills and traits available for such tasks.
  • Mounts can be used only when the player is at full hp and get a longer cooldown when dismounted (example 30 seconds) .
  • All players enter and stay in combat as soon as they are leave from respawn area.
  • Players can use uncontested Waypoints only while inside an uncontested structure.

This will improve the gamemode in the following points:

  • Strategy during encounters will be more prominent. As players will not be able to reset the combat just entering an structure or running away decisions made during an encounter will be more definitive. Sniper builds will be effectively mitigated as they won't be able to reset the fight just running away.

  • New roles will come up, bunker will have a meaningful use now, backline and frontline will become more specialized

  • Biggers groups won't have the clear advantage now and better distributed squads and better commanders will make a significant impact in the outcome.

  • Mounts will have a relevant use as mobility tool and not as an easy escape route.

  • Everything will be better and the stakes will be higher.

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"Melee Attack Assist"... You mean collision and collision detection.

"squads to tend to meatball formation"... That's because the majority of support skills are PBAoE.

"benefit the bigger groups"... Welcome to the world of realm vs realm gameplay.

"All players enter and stay in combat as soon as they are leave from respawn area."... What???

"Players can use uncontested Waypoints only while inside an uncontested structure."... What???

I really think you should reevaluate what you are trying to say and suggest honestly. Lots of head scratchers here...

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@anduriell.6280 said:

  • This cause the game to have very bad performance spikes. As all players tend to stay in the same spot it causes the servers and your personal computers to handle much more information than it would if the squad would be better distributed in better defined roles.Quite the contrary! Adding collision detection between player models would likely cause noteable computation drops, especially when large groups of players happen upon each other. In case you think that these lag spikes would deter players from gather in masses: this would probably feel very similar to what we are currently seeing with skill lags, as it impacts server sided computation. And that didn't stop all three zergs from running into each other all night long.
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As someone who has played in a game, with heavy pvp, and collision detection let me say this: NO! Not only would it likely blow up the servers, but it is super easy to exploit and troll. Imagine a couple of spy trolls who get in golems and sit in specific points to block people, or just raids starting to use a lot of pets and spawns to body block.

As for the choke points, if they REALLY wanted to fix that, they could just re-implement the broken AF ballista spread shot...

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@"Handin.4032" said:As someone who has played in a game, with heavy pvp, and collision detection let me say this: NO! Not only would it likely blow up the servers, but it is super easy to exploit and troll. Imagine a couple of spy trolls who get in golems and sit in specific points to block people, or just raids starting to use a lot of pets and spawns to body block.

As for the choke points, if they REALLY wanted to fix that, they could just re-implement the broken AF ballista spread shot...

Well that's why i'm talking about the "melee assist" option which is already in game: Only enemy models are used for the collision detection. I agree it would not be good to impact all the models in game.

I also don't think buffing siege, external tools for the combat, is the way to go. Otherwise portable cannons would be a thing.

The collision detection is already there, there is nothing which needs a full rework. There is no additional calculations as the game is already doing it in the background otherwise projectiles would not work.

Maybe apply this as a WvW week event and see how it goes.

I say it will be difficult to adapt at first, as most strategies are based in running against the enemy zerg like a jousting game for which no environment is needed, to actually have to plan the attack and use the environment to your benefit, like higher ground can really benefit one side. Also it opens for more Dev creativity as map design is more relevant now to the game play.

For the rest of the comments, WOW going for personal attacks and insults with no actual argument at all. Very well done i feel proud of being part of this community.

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I disagree, and this post shows that you understand very little about the game.

Clipping through models is 100% essential, especially for massive amounts of people in one area which is essential for WvW blob fights.

Teleport utilities from Thief, scourge and Mesmer are useless because you can go thru the enemy blob-Portal bombing is very popular and far from "useless". What do you even mean here?

This forces squads to tend to meatball formation because the enemy can reach easily the backline, so the best strategy is to keep all close and spam utilities. There is no strategy involved in squad distribution, just keep all models together.
-How is there no strategy involved if the literal strategy is to stick close together as you just admitted? If model clipping wasn't a think then you'd literally have no strategy what so ever and everyone would just be running around. You'd have small little fights all over the place which would be way more chaotic. You'd also have people completely exploit the model clipping by surrounding full support classes so you never die. You'd have a much bigger issue on your hands.

This cause the game to have very bad performance spikes. As all players tend to stay in the same spot it causes the servers and your personal computers to handle much more information than it would if the squad would be better distributed in better defined roles.-It's the opposite, it would actually use more resources if you all of a sudden added in coding to remove model clipping since your adding another condition that the game has to account for. By forcing people to block eachother, this is another thing the game has to constantly check for along with showing effects and models interacting which each other as such. The game would be far more glitchy.

Warrior doesn't have any use in WvW because it can not perform the role of tank. It can not block enemies.
Lol. Yeah, you know absolutely nothing about this game and shouldn't be making posts like this.
Warrior is probably one of the most crucial classes in WvW. There is no other skill in the game that matches Winds and for you to assume that every warrior needs to be a "tank" proves how very little you understand about the game.

It greatly reduces the number of roles in the squad. Because there is no zoning all there is no clear design for backline support or melee tank.Backline support and Melee Tank 100% exist, are you saying that adding in model blocking would remove these roles or are you suggesting that these roles don't exist?

No meaningful defense strategy can be built. The choke points lose all it's effectiveness as the enemy can just pass thru
It's not that simple. You don't just "pass through" another zerg. This is why it's crucial to run invulnerable and defense utilities + stun break into WvW. You literally can't survive without them.

Imagine a choke point where you just have tanks completely blocking passage and nothing but ranged support and DPS behind them... what an awful idea.

All this pain points only benefit the bigger groups exponentially making a waste of time to fight against a bigger group, tendency you can see in most blob fights and stacking servers.

Welcome to WvW. It's a numbers game. If you don't have the numbers, then you probably aren't winning. Removing model clipping won't change this what so ever, it'll just create more aggravation for players.

In all, this post is just a bad idea. Model clipping is essential for this game.

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Honestly, I started skimming once he said that the teleport utilities are useless in WvW. It has been my experience and understanding that Lightning Flash, Blink, and Shadowstep are so mandatory for WvW they might as well be stapled onto the utility bar. Back when I could play the game, I ran Weaver in WvW. Lightning Flash was the most useful utility I had:

(1) It let me escape from a losing fight(2) It let me avoid stun-locks and big bursts(3) It let me chase running enemies(4) It let me land big bursts on opponents(5) Most important for this particular scenario, it let me squeeze past zerg hordes into keeps. If I didn't have lightning flash, I would be Immobilized, CC'd, and burst down as I try to run through them.

The same could be said of the other blink skills. So I can't help but wonder how little WvW experience the OP has.

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@"anduriell.6280" said:Well that's why i'm talking about the "melee assist" option which is already in game: Only enemy models are used for the collision detection. I agree it would not be good to impact all the models in game.

The collision detection is already there, there is nothing which needs a full rework. There is no additional calculations as the game is already doing it in the background otherwise projectiles would not work.

those are entirely different things which happen in entirely different parts of the game and do entirely different things.

the melee assist is client code that overrides inputs in specific scenarios.collision detection is server code that synchronizes your movement with that of other players.

collision detection with projectiles is a collision between a static object and a dynamic object. that can be done entirely in client code with guaranteed correctness.collision detection with a wall is also client code and exactly the same as projectiles.

collision detection with other players however is a collision between two dynamic objects where you can just hope that those objects move predictably in close proximity - otherwise that famous thing called "lag", "rubberbanding" or "rollback" happens because the client approximation did not match the server calculation.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Honestly, I started skimming once he said that the teleport utilities are useless in WvW. It has been my experience and understanding that Lightning Flash, Blink, and Shadowstep are so mandatory for WvW they might as well be stapled onto the utility bar. Back when I could play the game, I ran Weaver in WvW. Lightning Flash was the most useful utility I had:

(1) It let me escape from a losing fight(2) It let me avoid stun-locks and big bursts(3) It let me chase running enemies(4) It let me land big bursts on opponents(5) Most important for this particular scenario, it let me squeeze past zerg hordes into keeps. If I didn't have lightning flash, I would be Immobilized, CC'd, and burst down as I try to run through them.

The same could be said of the other blink skills. So I can't help but wonder how little WvW experience the OP has.

Agreed, you are talking about your character thou. At squad level none of those strategies are being used. Let me put it this way:

  • Portal bombing was a thing when the Pirate Ship Meta. Because there was an imaginary boundary which players could not cross and zergs could not just run against each other, other means came up to play.

  • Now strips are down no portal or any strategy is necessary. It's more efficient to run against enemy zerg like a jousting game. Most of the times it isn't worth even to bait their bomb, such 1 push is being used right now in most of organized squads.

  • This reduces the strategy to one dimension as there is only one line: The metaball. Which reduces the amount of roles needed to 3, with specific exceptions for specific artificially created uses (scrapper, spell breaker) . There isn't any backline in the squad distribution. Melee assists will create at least a 2 dimension strategy: Front line and backline, probably with another groups with different utilities like high mobility to outmaneuver enemy front lines.

  • The game mode is unattractive to watch because of the mess that is watching 60 players spamming skills in the same spot, the servers/clients suffer more because of the amount of actions going on in a very reduced space. Having to distribute them in different areas will reduce the amount of active effects on your character which will reduce the amount of load in your computer at least.

  • As such to promote new strategies there is the need of boundaries in combat. As such collision with enemies is the right option: It does not promote pirate ship, it does still bring the basic concept of not being able to reach the backline just running towards it.

  • Staying in combat and removing the option to resurrect downeds by the action button adds another layer of build diversity and strategy as now builds wich bring resurrecting skills are needed.

  • This because i see a couple saying otherwise: Warriors are only used as bubble bots. Healbreaker is just something nice to have over the top, it is not required for the role of the warrior neither needed. As such only a couple of warriors for every 60 players is needed, when it's should be more prominent in the squad. I will not discuss this further.

  • Meta builds in wvw are so prominent because of the metaball formation, all characters clipping on each other. If they couldn't go running across an enemy formation other roles will be needed as such an increased variety would be needed.

  • It doesn't matter is melee assists is client side or server side, the point is It is already there.

  • For all the salt poured in this thread i say i hit the jackpot this will shake the meta. As i said just try it as an event for a week or two and see how it goes. You may surprise yourselves enjoying the game mode a little bit more.

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I'm sorry that you feel attacked by people's reflections. Some people try to calmly explain the inconsistencies in this proposal, others prefer to laugh about it.But everyone here agrees that you seem extremely disconnected with the reality of the WvW, and that this discussion should not exist.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:This OP is a prime example that the stars next to a poster is how often/much the post, not a measure of quality.

Stars really should be changed to measure # of helpfuls, so people don't take posts like this seriously.

I stopped taking anything on these forums seriously years ago. And still should have started sooner than that. And I post here regularly, so I include myself as a part of that idiocy, I just like to talk.

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@Quadeard.8457 said:I'm sorry that you feel attacked by people's reflections. Some people try to calmly explain the inconsistencies in this proposal, others prefer to laugh about it.But everyone here agrees that you seem extremely disconnected with the reality of the WvW, and that this discussion should not exist.

It's ok to disagree with others and you may not like my ideas and that is totally fine. I am not trying to convince you here, we are sharing ideas.

Look most new pvp focus games (New World, AoC) Do have enemy collision enabled. And this is because it creates and additional depth in the gameplay. Having enemy collision not only add new strategies (blocking the advance of enemies) but also creates more variety in the game as new builds and roles are needed.

And to avoid all the side effects coming from the model collisions is enough to have it active only for enemy models, like melee assists works in this game.

Zergs will not disappear, they will change to have more roles so don't fret.

I don't see the issue here, we all are complaining the game mode is stale, this is an easy fix to bring tons of content : new meta has to form, new strategies, smaller groups against bigger may surge, new roles which never existed in the game may surge as the commander would be more an strategists than a foot soldier, and lieutenants may have a relevant role as to lead the different groups in the squad.

If this doesn't works Anet just need to flip the switch back and deactivate the melee assist. No harm done.

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