Suggestion: limit NPC participation gain to once per cap

[Zyreva.1078]

@baking.1047 said:

@Vavume.8065 said:

@"SexyMofo.8923" said:This rarely ever happens.

This ^ and calling for changes based on something that rarely happens really does not carry much weight.

I think this is part of the problem with wvw, people don't defend anymore. WvW was originally part pve part pvp. Now I guess it is all pvp? The objectives are just there to take if the squad/group gets bored or can't find fights? It is sad that defending "rarely ever happens".

This does not make much sense. Defending always involves PvP, so if that's what most players are looking for, they would defend. What's more likely the case is that players are looking for easy rewards and (back-) capping paper structures (=PvE) often provides same or even more reward for less effort.

That's true for a lot of things in WvW. The correlation between effort/risk and reward is completely out of whack - which i guess is what this thread is pointing at. And any suggestion to change something about that - no matter whether it would make sense or not - is going to face a lot of resistance, because many players got used to their basically free rewards and won't want to give those up.

[Infusion.7149]

Honestly the veteran creature killer daily should be swapped for yak defender.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Infusion.7149 said:Honestly the veteran creature killer daily should be swapped for yak defender.

This idea I actually like. The vet creature slayer even without replacing it should probably be removed entirely. From a WvW player perspective.

I'm quite sure this would not get a lot of approval from PvE players who are forced to enter WvW and while I might sympathize with this plight, I am not sure that designing or keeping content targeting this group is healthy to the game mode.

Maybe having to escort a dolly as daily would make for a more fun daily at that. I would assume it beats waiting 15 minutes in one spot for a mob re-spawn.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@anduriell.6280 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:WvW is not for duelling, you are taking one of the limited spots in that map for doing something you can do in obsidian sanctum.If you want to benefit from the participation you should do that,

participate

.

I've personally dropped from T6 to below T3 because I was defending a spawn tower vs a 5 man guild with no supply to repair, tried to delay them running to the spawncamp while calling for help, delaying them at the camp and then giving up on it because I no longer

participated

in WvW despite probably having downed them like 10 times but failed to secure a kill because as per usual its one pocket healer per dps at the minimum.

Anet does not consider that participating in WvW.

You dont either?

Should I have whispered them and taken the 1v5 to Obsidian?

Well that should be the risk of defending: if you could get help you would be able to defeat them. Because nobody helped you, you ended up wasting 10 mins of everybody's time. You did what you were supposed to but your server didn't respond in kind. If after a minute or so nobody came i would have left the tower be flipped.

I think repairing as a defensive strategy shouldn't be a thing: Repairing should be something you do after a siege. If you can't see how annoying is to trying to flip a tower but one player inside just keep delaying the inevitable for nothing we won't be able to understand each other.

The player is doing their job by frustrating you, slowing down your advance to the next objective, so maybe other people can get there in time to defend it. Also that's how the scoring system even works. It's not about capturing objectives, it's just also about holding them for as long as possible. And one player holding down multiple is a good use of resources. If they can hold you down when their other server mates take your stuff, it's hardly an inevitable thing.

If you find it annoying, that means they're doing a good job.

Saying things should be removed because they get in your way, is just not how a game mode with pvp in it works.

[AvengeDeathToo.4580]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@baking.1047 said:

@Vavume.8065 said:

@"SexyMofo.8923" said:This rarely ever happens.

This ^ and calling for changes based on something that rarely happens really does not carry much weight.

I think this is part of the problem with wvw, people don't defend anymore. WvW was originally part pve part pvp. Now I guess it is all pvp? The objectives are just there to take if the squad/group gets bored or can't find fights? It is sad that defending "rarely ever happens".

This does not make much sense. Defending always involves PvP, so if that's what most players are looking for, they would defend. What's more likely the case is that players are looking for easy rewards and (back-) capping paper structures (=PvE) often provides same or even more reward for less effort.

That's true for a lot of things in WvW. The correlation between effort/risk and reward is completely out of whack - which i guess is what this thread is pointing at. And any suggestion to change something about that - no matter whether it would make sense or not - is going to face a lot of resistance, because many players got used to their basically free rewards and won't want to give those up.

Defending to me is siege vs siege more than player vs player. Pvp to me are the open field fights or duels. I can defend a tower/keep and not have to "fight" all of the players trying to take it. I just take out their siege, drain their supply, they leave. I get participation for repairing the walls but not for building the defensive siege. I get reward for "defend the keep/tower" but only until the timer runs down. The attackers get participation just for killing one npc over and over. I don't know why we have to lose participation anyway. We have people afking even when their participation is gone. They are just holding their spot on the map, mostly in ebg, until the next big friendly zerg comes along. I don't know what the answer is but it'd be nice to not lose participation for actively playing the game.

[Shroud.2307]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:WvW is not for duelling, you are taking one of the limited spots in that map for doing something you can do in obsidian sanctum.If you want to benefit from the participation you should do that,

participate

.

I've personally dropped from T6 to below T3 because I was defending a spawn tower vs a 5 man guild with no supply to repair, tried to delay them running to the spawncamp while calling for help, delaying them at the camp and then giving up on it because I no longer

participated

in WvW despite probably having downed them like 10 times but failed to secure a kill because as per usual its one pocket healer per dps at the minimum.

Anet does not consider that participating in WvW.

You dont either?

Should I have whispered them and taken the 1v5 to Obsidian?

I'm amazed at how many people play WvW like this. I just don't get it. I understand for some that having a goal to work toward is necessary to keep them playing. But it's amazing to me how many people will just drop what they're doing and quit, or not bother at all if it isn't giving them loot or participation. Why not just play a mobile game or something if combat isn't what you're there for?

Of all the years and hours I've been playing WvW, I still invested myself in it when I lost gold doing so. Of course I thought it was as stupid as everyone else that I had to pay to upgrade things, and I'm glad they changed that, but it was never about participation or items... Fighting is fun and plenty rewarding as an experience. But I guess it explains why so many avoid it entirely or will spend more time repairing a wall that's being attacked than trying to stop it from being hit.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I'm amazed at how many people play WvW like this. I just don't get it. I understand for some that having a goal to work toward is necessary to keep them playing. But it's amazing to me how many people will just drop what they're doing and quit, or not bother at all if it isn't giving them loot or participation. Why not just play a mobile game or something if combat isn't what you're there for?Uh, are you talking about my post or something else? Because you seem to have missed the part where I spent 15 minutes fighting them with the futile hope of actually stopping them.

Yeah I'm not going to continue trying after that when I get zero participation for it. I can easily find combat elsewhere that actually gives me participation - especially since it was the spawntower and spawncamp that was what I was trying to hold onto, everything else was enemy held and I could have gone and killed a sentry, or a guard, or capped a camp, whatever.

But I guess I quit to easily.

[Shroud.2307]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I'm amazed at how many people play WvW like this. I just don't get it. I understand for some that having a goal to work toward is necessary to keep them playing. But it's amazing to me how many people will just drop what they're doing and quit, or not bother at all if it isn't giving them loot or participation. Why not just play a mobile game or something if combat isn't what you're there for?Uh, are you talking about my post or something else? Because you seem to have missed the part where I spent 15 minutes fighting them with the futile hope of actually stopping them.

Yeah I'm not going to continue trying after that when I get zero participation for it. I can easily find combat elsewhere that actually gives me participation - especially since it was the spawntower and spawncamp that was what I was trying to hold onto, everything else was enemy held and I could have gone and killed a sentry, or a guard, or capped a camp, whatever.

But I guess I quit to easily.

Quitting when it's a lost cause because you can't win a 1vX is reasonable. Quitting because you don't get participation is what I'm talking about that I don't get. So how often are you avoiding fights when it's in an open field then? Because you're only getting anything from it if you're near an objective.

[Luthan.5236]

Yeah. The participation thing is a bit weird. It can even discourage you from defending in big zerg fights at a keep - if the others are roflstomping you and not even a single enemy can get downed. Then you might actually need a lot more people ... but it is more rewarding for them to just let the enemy cap the keep then recapping it. (And before that ... to kill some NPC somewhere or cap a camp or sentry.)

On the other hand: If you win the big zerg fight or get at least some kill credit ... it is the fastest way to increase participatoin.

I wonder if it isn't possible to freeze the participation timer when in combat with another player (not NPC!) - not gaining/losing participation. Just keeping it locked. Until someone really goes afk somewhere. (Cause he is participating in a way that he distracts the enemy player.)

The participation gain from killing NPCs is proof that it isn't only about "winning" - you don't win anything by killing some trash mob. (Easy to just farm some guards near SM in EBG if nothing else is happening there.)

Edit: And the vet creature killer is the only really annoying achievement. Some like taking a keep or doing 2 world ranks ... take a bit longer than most others. But at least you can have fun. Creature needs you to wait for it to spawn. Then it is killed fast - not really an "achievement" here. The hardest thing is to wait. (They could as well just give you an achievement for staying afk for 5-10 minutes. :D )

---

And for obsidian sanctum: Isn't even the participation timer counting down there as well? Could be removed there. It often is pretty empty. Should not reduce your participation when you want to quickly do the JP while waiting in queue.

[MedievalThings.5417]

@"Luthan.5236" said:Yeah. The participation thing is a bit weird. It can even discourage you from defending in big zerg fights at a keep

That's just it, Anet doesn't want people to defend. Every nerf has been in favor of the door-fighting blobs. Watch the devs play wvw streams, you will see them attacking as part of a blob, or as part of a group fighting doors/walls with no defenders. The only time you see them in wvw (with tag up anyway) is on the blobbing side. They want everyone to ktrain, fight smaller groups and doors because it's "fun". They have no idea what it is like for those of us who actually play this as our only game mode, constantly fighting 30-50+ blobs outnumbered.

[lare.5129]

@baking.1047 said:I think this is part of the problem with wvw, people don't defend anymore.

I think this is not problem that they not get participation for afk on camp. And people who think that wvw have any problem probably can't compare wiht other games, or play same to long.

The objectives are just there to take if the squad/group gets bored or can't find fights?for me it is not bored. For someone bored make dungion/drm or raids. It not content lack.

[lare.5129]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Uh, are you talking about my post or something else? Because you seem to have missed the part where I spent 15 minutes fighting them with the futile hope of actually stopping them.so if u do action with " futile hope" why it should be rewarded ? You not play and disturb others perso who can't take camp.. Why we should reward that??

Yeah I'm not going to continue trying after that when I get zero participation for it.good idea.

I can easily find combat elsewhere that actually gives me participation - especially since it was the spawntower and spawncamp that was what I was trying to hold onto, everything else was enemy held and I could have gone and killed a sentry, or a guard, or capped a camp, whatever.yes, time to srta play wvw, but not wait easy frag on camp :+1:

[LetoII.3782]

If they ever change participation to simply being present, the maps would fill with afk pvers netflixing their way to gift of battle.

To even have trouble maintaining t6 indicates a player isn't far from this situation already.

[WorldofBay.8160]

@LetoII.3782 said:If they ever change participation to simply being present, the maps would fill with afk pvers netflixing their way to gift of battle.

To even have trouble maintaining t6 indicates a player isn't far from this situation already.

it's not about simply being present, it's about actively fighting.downing a player gives no participation, why?

even standing in a contested circle should immediately pause participation loss - you can't afk there (unless there is a cospiration of players contesting afk and being so numerous that normal wvw players can't join the map). it should not give participation but you shouldn't lose any while doing so. same for damaging other players.

instead of immediately thinking about players abusing it think about the effect on the match. holding a point gives your team points. therefore any action done to keep that point should provide participation. just being somewhere in a keep while it is contested should obviously give you nothing. but stopping enemies from capturing it should.

[LetoII.3782]

@WorldofBay.8160 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:If they ever change participation to simply being present, the maps would fill with afk pvers netflixing their way to gift of battle.

To even have trouble maintaining t6 indicates a player isn't far from this situation already.

it's not about simply being present, it's about actively fighting.downing a player gives no participation, why?

Simple.Until fully defeated youve accomplished nothing.An award for trying would be a participation award, simply being present isnt an accomplishment and merits no reward.

If a bottle of Tabasco sauce on my 2 key can keep me at t6 I'm not sure how much less need be done to lose..

[Luthan.5236]

@"Ubi.4136" said:That's just it, Anet doesn't want people to defend. Every nerf has been in favor of the door-fighting blobs. Watch the devs play wvw streams, you will see them attacking as part of a blob, or as part of a group fighting doors/walls with no defenders. The only time you see them in wvw (with tag up anyway) is on the blobbing side. They want everyone to ktrain, fight smaller groups and doors because it's "fun". They have no idea what it is like for those of us who actually play this as our only game mode, constantly fighting 30-50+ blobs outnumbered.

Seems a bit troublesome. Actually the main idea of this game mode is to attack stuff and to defend it. (I mean they still have it so that upgraded stuff gives more points per tick.) But already the fact that there is much less WXP gained by defending (if you kill the same attackers repeatedly they will give less WXP) than by flipping the same objective over and over ... is a problem.

Maybe they could just make some plain maps and remove all the stuff and just some capture circles where people can attack and cap and then others can recap. :D No upgrades needed if you should not defend. :D

[ASP.8093]

"Why don't you go flip some camps instead of fighting outnumbered?"

Because it's boring. Come on now.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Oh, I have it!

Make it so that participation decays slower when you're in combat during a defense event. That would make it harder to afk. Suppose you could still abuse this in SMC somehow. But if you're in SMC, you can just abuse wall repairing anyways.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:Honestly the veteran creature killer daily should be swapped for yak defender.

This idea I actually like. The vet creature slayer even without replacing it should probably be removed entirely. From a WvW player perspective.

Maybe having to escort a dolly as daily would make for a more fun daily at that. I would assume it beats waiting 15 minutes in one spot for a mob re-spawn.

The major problem I would see with this: The vet creature gives them a task they are more familiar with. Placing it into rotation with other like a dolyak escort would be a good Compromise.

I confess it dropping 10 supply in a contested wall to ensure a participation tick if I’ve just been steamrolled in a futile effort to be a speed bump. (And I know your post wasn’t referring to participation, I was just continuing my ramble). I wouldn’t want that removed from the participation ticks either... I don’t use it often by any means, but having it stop a decline can be helpful..

[Justine.6351]

Its pretty rare to eat participation decay doing anything at all in wvw.If people's fights are stalemating this hard they should maybe get off the sustain bunker builds.

[Shroud.2307]

@"LetoII.3782" said:An award for trying would be a participation award, simply being present isnt an accomplishment and merits no reward.

This ^

I get that the reward system isn't the best, and I'm not against the idea of improving it. I just find the sentiment that people are paying enough attention to their participation decay to leave fights, or likely to not engage in them at all if it isn't going to award any, to be funny.

Everyone plays for different reasons and different ways. But we can't have rewards being much easier than what they already are, or like you said, it will further encourage afk farming. And exactly why I cite mobile games because many seem to want exactly that, "participation reward". Minimal effort for maximum gain.