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The Death of Thief


darren.1064

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

my idea for thief was that they would have skills with cooldowns as anyone else, but once per cooldown they would be able to bypass the cooldown and pay it in initiative instead. inc ini pool to like 100, have 5 ini reg/s. and skills cost ~40-60 ini depending on impact.that was thief has to know what their skills actually do instead of using only 2-3, maybe it would take some effort to play the class, also also. This would fix the stealth blast spamming, 6s while in combat, 12s out of combat if you switch between sets. Actually balanced.

Make it 4 Ini resources that can only be refreshed by stealing, and recasting a skill already on cooldown consumes one.Trickery increases this to 6.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

my idea for thief was that they would have skills with cooldowns as anyone else, but once per cooldown they would be able to bypass the cooldown and pay it in initiative instead. inc ini pool to like 100, have 5 ini reg/s. and skills cost ~40-60 ini depending on impact.that was thief has to know what their skills actually do instead of using only 2-3, maybe it would take some effort to play the class, also also. This would fix the stealth blast spamming, 6s while in combat, 12s out of combat if you switch between sets. Actually balanced.

Make it 4 Ini resources that can
only
be refreshed by stealing, and recasting a skill already on cooldown consumes one.Trickery increases this to 6.

this or whatever, and they can expand upon the idea to extreme, eveyn something like. If you use X off cooldown its weaker, or if you use X off cooldown its stronger, so much potential, but instead we have shit. no cooldowns and a mana bar, what a disgrace. worst mechanic out of all I have ever seen in any game.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:The people finding issue with Thief isn't in group v group.And any thief that shows themselves in a group v group gets dumpstered, and any group having a thief need to rely on the thief not fighting to pull their worth.

It's all so utterly silly.Crazy idea but what if we got rid of Ini system and give Thief some actual skills with bite, but placing them on a cooldown?And everytime they Steal, they will by default refresh one of their skills?

I mean pretty sure people are tired of having spammable weak skills right?

Why doesn't it, cuz u dont think it fits? Who made the rule high mobility= low burst?

Lmao, Power Mesmer, Power Rev, Power Warrior, Power Soulbeast and even to some extent Power Holo literally defies the idea of "high mobility = low burst"

Yeah they do as they should because it's only because of arguements regarding thief that some made up rule that high mobility means low bursts which is the opposite of what u see with any rogue archetype in every mmo etc which is low hp/armor, low sustained damage but high mobility and burst through teleports and other mean and usually if not always resort to those movements and gimmicks as a means to sustain itself ie stealth and ports etc. Nighblade in eso= stealth and teleportation, rogue in wow= stealth and teleportation, bdo ninja= stealth teleportation all with a high burst hit and run type playstyle and gw2 is and shouldn't be any different. That said just like the rogue like being similar in every mmo they also recieve the same complaints in every forum, except wow as it seems everyone has just except led the perma stealth gank playstyle of rogue and mostly complain when its cc or burst is to high like the beginning of pre patch where subs burst was bit overturned.Here is the deal with WoW rouges people complain less about them when they are killable, if the rouge got like 70% the HP of the character but that character turned around after the cc and did the same it feels fair even though the rouge had the opener, also you have a chance at revealing them before they start with AoE skills or anti stealth skills. Problem with thief in GW2 is that is not killable, if it wants to run away it can so as long as it does that it cannot fulfill the arch type that you want for it. Currently the Shiro Herald fulfills the arch type of the rouge for some reason, then again the stance is Legendary Assassin .
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Anyone that played since launch knows that all the classes had to be balanced around thief. I imagine its not the same dev team anymore. The old team threw logic out the window in favor of class themes in such a way that every other class had to pass a thief survival test (which for a long time necro never did).

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@"darren.1064" said:I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:

    1. Elementalist - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
    1. Necromancer - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
    1. Mesmer - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
    1. Ranger - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
    1. Engineer - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
    1. Thief - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
    1. Guardian - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
    1. Warrior - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
    1. Revenant - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviouslyA: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.B: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

im not gonna lie this post makes me fkn cringe

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:The people finding issue with Thief isn't in group v group.And any thief that shows themselves in a group v group gets dumpstered, and any group having a thief need to rely on the thief not fighting to pull their worth.

It's all so utterly silly.Crazy idea but what if we got rid of Ini system and give Thief some actual skills with bite, but placing them on a cooldown?And everytime they Steal, they will by default refresh one of their skills?

I mean pretty sure people are tired of having spammable weak skills right?

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

Why doesn't it, cuz u dont think it fits? Who made the rule high mobility= low burst?

Lmao, Power Mesmer, Power Rev, Power Warrior, Power Soulbeast and even to some extent Power Holo literally defies the idea of "high mobility = low burst"

my idea for thief was that they would have skills with cooldowns as anyone else, but once per cooldown they would be able to bypass the cooldown and pay it in initiative instead. inc ini pool to like 100, have 5 ini reg/s. and skills cost ~40-60 ini depending on impact.that was thief has to know what their skills actually do instead of using only 2-3, maybe it would take some effort to play the class, also also. This would fix the stealth blast spamming, 6s while in combat, 12s out of combat if you switch between sets. Actually balanced.

The reason thief only uses 2-3 (usually fewer) is because the other ones are bad. With your suggestion, youd need to buff and rework a whole lot of skills. Seriously, headshot as a cooldown skill would be even worse than it already is, and poor S/D thief would be outright disfunctional. Or P/D thief, but people particularly hate that one, so eh. Oh and P/P thief would go from "unviable" to "troll build you should be reported for".

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When the thieves in this thread started crying about how low their damage is, I stopped replying and tried to screenshot the damage I got when thieves attacked me.Right now, in my combat log, I see a list of these spammable skills that require 0 investment, defensive traitlines and apparently deal low damage

5.7k backstab5.1k vault4.4k shadowshot8.6k backstab LMAO -this one probably used assassin's signet... there has at least one thief in this game that gets the damage, but actually invests something in offensive utilities-4.1k cloak and dagger

If that doesn't do the trick, just dash somewhere safe, stealth and repeat until someone dies.I'd gladly ask again: may I get some low damage too? I'd really love if devs gave mesmer some low damage as well. Until I get some low damage too, if you can't kill anyone with thief I just think you need to get thinner fingers.

EDIT got another 6.7k backstab rn

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@Xueyou.5746 said:

@"darren.1064" said:I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:
    1. Elementalist
      - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
    1. Necromancer
      - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
    1. Mesmer
      - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
    1. Ranger
      - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
    1. Engineer
      - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
    1. Thief
      - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
    1. Guardian
      - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
    1. Warrior
      - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
    1. Revenant
      - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
A
: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
B
: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

im not gonna lie this post makes me kitten cringe

If you can't read then just say that

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@Terrorhuz.4695 said:When the thieves in this thread started crying about how low their damage is, I stopped replying and tried to screenshot the damage I got when thieves attacked me.Right now, in my combat log, I see a list of these spammable skills that require 0 investment, defensive traitlines and apparently deal low damage

5.7k backstab5.1k vault4.4k shadowshot8.6k backstab LMAO -this one probably used assassin's signet... there has at least one thief in this game that gets the damage, but actually invests something in offensive utilities-4.1k cloak and dagger

If that doesn't do the trick, just dash somewhere safe, stealth and repeat until someone dies.I'd gladly ask again: may I get some low damage too? I'd really love if devs gave mesmer some low damage as well. Until I get some low damage too, if you can't kill anyone with thief I just think you need to get thinner fingers.

1.) Backstab can only be used 1 time every ~4 seconds.2.) Learn to dodge first off, but wow a thief can use Vault twice in a row and do exactly 10k damage and then be completely out of initiative?3.) Shadowshot is one of my favorite skills4.) Same as 1, and even then... Assassin's Signet can only be used on 1 Backstab so?5.) Probably one of the worst thief skills

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As if thief hadn't plenty of ways to access stealth (and the HP recover\condi cleanse\initiative regeneration it comes with) and blindness, and as if stealing from a mesmer didn't grant god-mode for 3 seconds, stealing from a ranger didn't grant a second HP bar (every 20 seconds; and that can be used twice if you trait for it)

Thief doesn't need any buff, thief needs better players, it's a different thing.

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The stealth system needs a rework like making their outline visible but their damage is reduced by 50% in stealth or domething. Their mobility needs to be slightly adjusted and their base damage buffed. Thief should be high risk high reward. They used to be low risk high reward now they are low risk low reward

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@FrownyClown.8402 said:The stealth system needs a rework like making their outline visible but their damage is reduced by 50% in stealth or domething. Their mobility needs to be slightly adjusted and their base damage buffed. Thief should be high risk high reward. They used to be low risk high reward now they are low risk low reward

literally who does that benefit? projectiles wouldn't be able to land and neither would melee. AoE spammers would be the only people actually getting anything out of this.

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@darren.1064 said:

@"FrownyClown.8402" said:The stealth system needs a rework like making their outline visible but their damage is reduced by 50% in stealth or domething. Their mobility needs to be slightly adjusted and their base damage buffed. Thief should be high risk high reward. They used to be low risk high reward now they are low risk low reward

literally who does that benefit? projectiles wouldn't be able to land and neither would melee. AoE spammers would be the only people actually getting anything out of this.

good players would be able to land projectiles onto " stealthed " targets if they saw outliers.its cool to noscope stealthed thief with gs2 on mesmer :D

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@"felix.2386" said:lol, thief the most busted spec the entire 2020 alongside holo, how did it age at all

I did see your "When are thief and holo going to get nerfed" post and laughed at how redundant it was, so good job for giving me a solid laugh based off your issues playing. Why don't you just go and learn to play and then come back.

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@darren.1064 said:

@"felix.2386" said:lol, thief the most busted spec the entire 2020 alongside holo, how did it age at all

I did see your "When are thief and holo going to get nerfed" post and laughed at how redundant it was, so good job for giving me a solid laugh based off your issues playing. Why don't you just go and learn to play and then come back.

i'm thief/holo plat 2 soloq, what are you? ill dual you on both classes against your main so you can finally try to l2p your own main.actually ill dual your holo on my thief. so you can actually know how trash you are.PM me ingame

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@felix.2386 said:

@felix.2386 said:lol, thief the most busted spec the entire 2020 alongside holo, how did it age at all

I did see your "When are thief and holo going to get nerfed" post and laughed at how redundant it was, so good job for giving me a solid laugh based off your issues playing. Why don't you just go and learn to play and then come back.

i'm thief/holo plat 2 soloq, what are you? ill dual you on both classes against your main so you can finally try to l2p your own main.actually ill dual your holo on my thief. so you can actually know how trash you are.PM me ingame

I'll pass, I'm sure you'll whoop me. You're obviously so good at 1v1s and playing in GW2 that your grammar took a hit

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@darren.1064 said:

@felix.2386 said:lol, thief the most busted spec the entire 2020 alongside holo, how did it age at all

I did see your "When are thief and holo going to get nerfed" post and laughed at how redundant it was, so good job for giving me a solid laugh based off your issues playing. Why don't you just go and learn to play and then come back.

i'm thief/holo plat 2 soloq, what are you? ill dual you on both classes against your main so you can finally try to l2p your own main.actually ill dual your holo on my thief. so you can actually know how trash you are.PM me ingame

I'll pass, I'm sure you'll whoop me. You're obviously so good at 1v1s and playing in GW2 that your grammar took a hit

Yea, my English skill is so related to the topic that you had to attack it in order to cover up your lack of skill.sorry, my English is like my 4th/5th language and it is self-taught.

also i'm glad that you finally realize it's really your lack of skill that's the problem so shut up and keep the laughing to yourself, your gameplay will need it.

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