Bold Claim (and reality): Superspeed upkeep is making skill ranges and radiuses too low

[Riba.3271]

Well it is quite simple, if everyone moves 50% faster (133% with swift, 200%+ ignoring chill/cripple with superspeed), skill ranges and radiuses should be bigger also.

Proof is quite simple

Think of 2 scenarios with current skill ranges

1. Everyone moves superslowThen current skill ranges and radiuses would mean you wouldn't be ever able to engage right? And you would spend more time in pulsing fields.

2. Everyone moves superfastThen it means enemy will be on top of you instantly and there is no advantage in playing ranged builds as you will be cc locked. Pulsing fields would never get more than 1 tick off.

Now that it has been proven that increased or reduced movementspeed on all sides does affect how combat plays out, lets move on to solutions to reintroduce skillful cooldown management and interactive combat that was prevalent pre-scrappermeta:

1. Reduce upkeep of AoE superspeed close to levels it was during HoT (1 Long CD skills on Rev and Tempest, and now maybe on scrapper)Great solution. By nerfing scrapper to only personal superspeed and making it only be able to give 1-2 instances of AoE superspeed (For example slick shoes and blast gyro toolbelt skills), do note that holosmith has near permanent upkeep on AoE low-radius superspeed also with zephyr traited so it should be touched too. They would have to be buffed correspondingly in other ways.

2. Reduce effectiveness of superspeed down to 66% from 100% in WvW (and maybe in PvP)Favorite solution. Well simple, you half the effect this metachange has on the combat system. It will still be a strong combat tool but won't mess up field players so much. Some personal superspeed classes like druid and soulbeast would have to be buffed. You could add within 1 scrapper minor trait that they get increased personal effectiveness from superspeed.

3. Increase skill ranges and pulsing AoE radiuses by 33% (not 50% cuz superspeed upkeep) to match the introduced speedTerrible solution as it will punish those that are not running superspeed. Basically it will be crippling any non group play and group diversity. The good thing about this change would be that it would introduce more fast paced and skillful meta provided everyone has superspeed comps going.

4. Extra: Add counter to superspeed by making it not ignore chills and cripplesIn addition to one of the above as it is not very impactful. Chill fields were always a way to make enemy group have a tail you can strike on and force enemy to slow down their movement to keep them safe. While staff ele specs are most affected by introduction of superspeed due to sheer amount of fields they put it, their chill fields, Lahar and frost auras could also be defining factor in countering such gameplay.

I believe solutions 1 or 2 are enough to make combat system quite nice.

Speed runes need to be tuned down to 66% as well. They hold the same issue

TLDR; Superspeed ruined existing skill range/radius system, to fix it superspeed would have to tuned down to 66% movement speed in WvW or scrapper/holo AoE superspeeds would have to be made mostly personal with buffs somewhere elsewhere. Speed runes need nerfs as well.

[Dawdler.8521]

Yet some people would still move superfast and some move superslow because some people can get speed buffs in their builds and some cant.

There is no "fix" for this except uniform speed with no available buffs whatsoever.

[Riba.3271]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Yet some people would still move superfast and some move superslow because some people can get speed buffs in their builds and some cant.

There is no "fix" for this except uniform speed with no available buffs whatsoever.

There is, making swiftness (Abundant buff and pretty much available to every class) the highest available shareable speed bonus. Not that I am not saying superspeed is bad and we should go as far as removing it but sharing it with over 15% upkeep from 1 player is kind of overkill. Right now it is just close to permanent instead of being short term reactionary tool

[DeceiverX.8361]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Yet some people would still move superfast and some move superslow because some people can get speed buffs in their builds and some cant.

There is no "fix" for this except uniform speed with no available buffs whatsoever.

This was the point of signets and swiftness.

Some brilliant mind at ANet decided that movespeed disparities weren't big enough, though, and to overload boons even further by changing rune of speed.

25% should be the permanent number. 33% should be swiftness. No other benefits should exist.If people want instant mobility, they should take weapons which provide it. If superspeed is necessary to evade certain things, it means AoE radii are too large and should be cut, and the effect made an extreme rarity.

It's that simple, and yet, here we are...

[MarzAttakz.9608]

Yep, totally agree.

[LetoII.3782]

Superspeed is power creep plain and simple.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Yep, no arguments here. So often I end up swapping out useful runes for runes of speed on my thief because stuff is just leeroying out of melee range with superspeed lol.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Threather.9354 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Yet some people would

still

move superfast and some move superslow because some people can get speed buffs in their builds and some cant.

There is no "fix" for this except uniform speed with no available buffs whatsoever.

There is, making swiftness (Abundant buff and pretty much available to every class) the highest available shareable speed bonus. Not that I am not saying superspeed is bad and we should go as far as removing it but sharing it with over 15% upkeep from 1 player is kind of overkill. Right now it is just close to permanent instead of being short term reactionary toolThat doesnt make any sense whatsoever since its

not

available to every build in abundance.

That every class has it somewhere on some skill is irrelevant because once again, exactly as I said, some people can get speed buffs in their builds and some cant.

[Riba.3271]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Yet some people would

still

move superfast and some move superslow because some people can get speed buffs in their builds and some cant.

There is no "fix" for this except uniform speed with no available buffs whatsoever.

There is, making swiftness (Abundant buff and pretty much available to every class) the highest available shareable speed bonus. Not that I am not saying superspeed is bad and we should go as far as removing it but sharing it with over 15% upkeep from 1 player is kind of overkill. Right now it is just close to permanent instead of being short term reactionary toolThat doesnt make any sense whatsoever since its

not

available to every build in abundance.

That every class has it somewhere on some skill is irrelevant because once again, exactly as I said,

some people can get speed buffs in their builds and some cant

.

Yes and one requested thing is to reduce AoE superspeed, not personal one

[Zape.2094]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Yet some people would

still

move superfast and some move superslow because some people can get speed buffs in their builds and some cant.

There is no "fix" for this except uniform speed with no available buffs whatsoever.

This was the point of signets and swiftness.

Some brilliant mind at ANet decided that movespeed disparities weren't big enough, though, and to overload boons even further by changing rune of speed.

25% should be the permanent number. 33% should be swiftness. No other benefits should exist.If people want instant mobility, they should take weapons which provide it. If superspeed is necessary to evade certain things, it means AoE radii are too large and should be cut, and the effect made an extreme rarity.

It's that simple, and yet, here we are...

I got absolutely nothing useful to add to the topic but I wanna express my appreciation for your proper use of "radius" plural.

You go lad, the world needs more people like you.

[Galmac.4680]

So with that changes you will have no chance to chase thiefs or mesmers anymore. Whoohoo. And rangers are quite fast too.

[ollbirtan.2915]

Please keep sPvP out of your 'balance suggestions'. We already have a broken mess of a game mode, so just don't.As for WvW, I would agree to toning down the amount of AOE superspeed that scrappers produce, but reducing SS to 66% in WvW is a terrible idea as it widens the rifts between the 3 game modes we have.

[Riba.3271]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:Please keep sPvP out of your 'balance suggestions'. We already have a broken mess of a game mode, so just don't.As for WvW, I would agree to toning down the amount of AOE superspeed that scrappers produce, but reducing SS to 66% in WvW is a terrible idea as it widens the rifts between the 3 game modes we have.

Well, I am sure you have better solution then.

Tbf Superspeed doesn't matter in PvE and maybe reducing the mobility creep in PvP would be a good idea as well

[ollbirtan.2915]

I'm not sure which mobility creep are you talking about in spvp. In it's current state, spvp has almost zero build diversity, and a select few classes that are viable. The only truly 'mobile' class is thief since mesmer portal has been nerfed. Holos and war can be fast but that's not an issue. sPvP is a contained mode - a small arena, 5 players, 3 nodes, and questionable side objectives. With current 'close to zero' build diversity, the last thing sPvP needs, is another so called 'balance adjustment'.

[Riba.3271]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:I'm not sure which mobility creep are you talking about in spvp. In it's current state, spvp has almost zero build diversity, and a select few classes that are viable. The only truly 'mobile' class is thief since mesmer portal has been nerfed. Holos and war can be fast but that's not an issue. sPvP is a contained mode - a small arena, 5 players, 3 nodes, and questionable side objectives. With current 'close to zero' build diversity, the last thing sPvP needs, is another so called 'balance adjustment'.

It sounds like thats what it exactly needs if it is so stale and has almost zero build diversity.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

eliminating the chill/ cripple bypass effect would be enough imo.

[subversiontwo.7501]

I think context is important:

Superspeed sits in the same situation as stab, winds, resistance, certain stances and everything else. It is some sort of attempt at capping off all the boon and control spam. It is also some attempt at reigning in a grip over PvP balance after the modes have been thrown to the wind of PvE balance where more CC just adds to the fun of having buttons to mash and the norm is to keep stacks of boons maxed as a micrograme.

This discussion, same as any related discussion, need to look at the macro of PvP and take into account that the norm here is still ranged combat with literally no classes what so ever currently filling a melee damage role. Control also generally trumphs base mobility and self-reliant panic-buttons. Alot of these discussions are often rooted in less experienced players not assuming that opposing players will adapt or counter in situations of overbearing control.

I'm not saying everyone in this thread is an inexperienced player, I'm simply saying that discussions of this kind are often marred by that oversight. People assume that they will get to land more damage but may not take into account that opposing players will also be more apt at just taking your buttons away and killing you with little chance at counterplay. They also may not consider that it will just push balance further in favour of long-ranged self-reliant builds that will ultimately shift the environment more towards a kind of clouding that no one wants to command in and the mode will just see less tags and less organized play. That may be appealing at first glimpse for someone who do not play in close cooperation with friends or take part in leading organized content but they will notice it once content just get sparse in general and there are no tags around anymore.

Does that mean that balance-bridging mechanics like superspeed are ideal?

No, not at all. A proper balance of base mechanics would be alot better. That however would require a major overhaul of those base mechanics and a much deeper split with PvE mechanics (which can be counter-intuitive, even if that isn't a major concern of mine - also, if we're talking about ideals I'd much prefer PvE to find other routes to engaging gameplay than spamming those effects there too). Just bare in mind that it would require making powerful control skills very rare as well. Things like chill and stun are incredibly powerful so they have powerful counters and should those counters become less outstanding then so would the control need to be. However, that's certainly my ideal for sure, that many of the powerful control effects could become very rare and we could tune down the counterplay to them as well to open up role diversity.

Does that mean that there are no better solutions?

No, not at all. You can certainly find better overarching solutions. However, you need to ask yourselves if you can trust ArenaNet with that. If you are talking to other players you also need to ask yourself if you can trust a deeper understanding in their suggestions with that. I do not and that is why I am usually on the side of defending general mobility- and open-field- encouraging mechanics in balance discussions. I simply believe that these are the best hope for now and my faith in the developers or most other players to find something better, rather than worse, is rather low.

[Len.1879]

What is it with you throwing around wild claims and selling them as "proof", OP?

Then current skill ranges and radiuses would mean you wouldn't be ever able to engage right? And you would spend more time in pulsing fields.You can still dodge.

Then it means enemy will be on top of you instantly and there is no advantage in playing ranged builds as you will be cc locked. Pulsing fields would never get more than 1 tick off.Then keep enemies at bay with threatening fields and CC.

I am not saying you are wrong per se – I don't have any strong opinion on it at all – I am just flabbergasted at your understanding of how proving and reasoning work. Especially when sprinkling it with gonzo statements like "bold statement (and reality)".

[Riba.3271]

@"Len.1879" said:What is it with you throwing around wild claims and selling them as "proof", OP?

Then current skill ranges and radiuses would mean you wouldn't be ever able to engage right? And you would spend more time in pulsing fields.You can still dodge.Yes, still doesn't mean you won't spend more time in some of them. Like if you tunnelvision on the one field you have to dodge, sure. But there are 5 warriors bubbles, 5 meteors, 10 lava fonts, 30 wells, you have to walk over some of it.

Then it means enemy will be on top of you instantly and there is no advantage in playing ranged builds as you will be cc locked. Pulsing fields would never get more than 1 tick off.Then keep enemies at bay with threatening fields and CC.

Lets say enemy would move over the fields within 0.25 seconds, then it would mean only quarter fields would hit the enemy even if they run over them. And its not like CC does anything without boon removal.

I am not saying you are wrong per se – I don't have any strong opinion on it at all – I am just flabbergasted at your understanding of how proving and reasoning work. Especially when sprinkling it with gonzo statements like "bold statement (and reality)".

It was proven well enough as factors like additional leaps, which I am suprised you didn't bring up as tool to avoid lack of movement, does not change the fact that movement speed affects how to game plays out. If id have to use your type of argumentation against possible extinction of bees, it would be something along lines of "some bees still exist, so it isn't something to worry about". Its about the overall picture of how the fights play out from start to finish, or how many bees there are in total. Couple of evades don't change the full picture.

Title is there to get people to click on it while being informative. There is no point at all making a thread if no1 reads it. Making interesting informative titles to fit the medium is part of basic education in high school (at least in Nordic countries). I already tried titles that were purely informative in GW2 forums and the threads were kind of ignored as they didn't spark or express enough emotion.

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

maybe stop using action cam and start aiming better?

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

They already decided that we do not deserve any of the cool boons, so they gave use Superspeed. There are not many situations this really comes in handy. If they decide to remove Superspeed from us again, because certain players have doubts, there is not much left they replace it with. I've been looking forward to the first player who starts to complain about the only true group-boon of Scrappers. What group-boon would you give us in return?

[Riba.3271]

@HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:They already decided that we do not deserve any of the cool boons, so they gave use Superspeed. There are not many situations this really comes in handy. If they decide to remove Superspeed from us again, because certain players have doubts, there is not much left they replace it with. I've been looking forward to the first player who starts to complain about the only true group-boon of Scrappers. What group-boon would you give us in return?

Well my favorite solution was to reduce effectiveness of superspeed to 66% instead of 100% extra movement speed. You would still have very strong speed bonus (not overpowered tho), 100% old effectiveness on yourself (due to suggested minor trait changes that make super speed stronger on scrapper himself but not on allies), ton of cleanses, big heals, stab/reflects etc. I would say the class would still be amongst meta but you can throw in like gyro toolbelt skill buffs or something.

[Riba.3271]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:eliminating the chill/ cripple bypass effect would be enough imo.

Yea, its definitely something they could do. Currently superskill requires too little skill to be used. And more movement speed you have, more potent the cripples and chills are.

[Kovu.7560]

It's amusing watching my character hobble along while under the effects of both cripple and superspeed.That said, outside of certain engineer specs, I don't think this is an issue -- most only get personal superspeed for 2~5s on a 30-40s cooldown through either traits or utility slots.

A lot of defensive power creep in all areas of the game comes from how much things tend to snowball due to AoE stacking. Superspeed, boon generation, area reflection, area healing and cleansing -- a lot of this stuff would solve itself if we reduced the number of allies affected by the vast majority of AoE skills in the game. Not sure cutting down on that would be the right call though, a big part of the strategy in this game is derived from how the professions synergize with each other. It's difficult to find a happy balance.

Perhaps halve the duration of superspeed engineers grant to their allies, kind of like how ranger stances only affect allies for a fraction of the duration they're personally affected.

~ Kovu