Some thoughts on ways to make core Engi valuable

[Xaylin.1860]

@"Kodama.6453" said:Is there really no difference for you between being unappealing and being completely shut out? Because for me there is a heavy difference between these 2.Even if something is unappealing, I am still able to chose it if the situation requires it. If something is locked out for me, then I don't have that choice. And we are talking about alot of choices getting forbidden for holosmith here.

I argue the issue isn't has big as you feel it to be if there are reasonable alternatives. In the end there is no effective difference in not having access to an option and having an option which has almost no value to you. The only difference is that you might feel cut in your freedom. That's true. But it doesn't impact the balance of the game.

IMHO, the lack of those traits you've listed won't kill Holo. Even though it might indeed alienate people. Again: If you don't want change, sure. But then the situation of core Engineer won't change. So far all balance attempts for Engineer (with regard to Holo and Scrapper) have been really half-assed.

As I have already proven, tho, kits are used for holosmith.

I never argued against that? However, something being meta simply means it's the most efficient build for the respective mode. It is easy to assume that this means that Kits are important to Holosmith. In reality it is just a mirror of current balance. Nothing else.

I can only speak for myself what I enjoy and what I don't. And I don't believe Holosmiths need Kits to work because of PF.

However, I think we can agree that the current set up for Engineer when it comes to in-class balancing is not in a good spot? And just tuning F5 won't do the class any good?

Scrapper as an elite spec is already required to get played as a power spec, because of the barrier generation. Now you want to tell me that it is a good thing to make our second out of 2 elite specs being required to run power also. I heavily disagree with that.

No, that's not what I said. I said Holo could be made playable as Condi through altering existing traits - meaning without a major rework. However, that there could be reasons not to do so. For example, a third Elite spec. Or core becoming the major go to for Condition on Engineer. We have seen a comporable shift like this happen with core Necromancer. And please don't tell me about us not knowing what is to come. Of course, we don't. We are talking only hypotheticals after all. It's not like Holo is going to lose Kits next patch.

I said Dagger because this way Daredevil would only have

melee

weapons.

Aha, so here you make a distinction that daredevil should just have "melee" weapons, but this is not possible for kits in your opinion? You want to take away all kits from holo, why didn't even the thought cross your mind to also be selective with the kits you are taking away? Honestly, sounds a bit biased here.

First, I've been talking about what makes sense concpetually. If the concept is that Holosmith focussed their studies on Photonforge (meaning: additional weapon skills) instead of classic weapon Kits, it makes sense for them to lose access to weapon skills somewhere else so it's not just an upgrade. An even more extreme (unbalanced) example is Firebrand. Of course, this not the only way of implementing a trade off for PF but a very straightforward one and it could be justified conceptually. On the contrary, to me, the CD on Toolbelts don't feel right/sufficient. If one said that a Daredevil has focussed on close quarter combat as a Brawler, it could be justified for them to not use ranged weapons (similar as in other games or fantasy universes where, for example, Clerics sometimes only use blunt weapons). However, why would they forgo all weapons aside from one weapon set? At this point, you're just trying to make your case. If anything and all concepts aside, the proper parallel would be Staff + one second weapon set of your choice , wouldn't it? Or is the next arguement that Engineers could potentially run 5 Kits? In the end, Daredevil doesn't gain an additional weapon Kit but an addtional Dodge. So we should have a totally different discussion to begin with. Even though I do enjoy the idea of a melee only DD.

Second, there is a difference between weapons and Utility skills mechanically/programming wise. Utility skills are unlocked by using Hero Points. However, we do know that baseline weapons are not connected to any existing Hero Point unlocks. It is probably easier to alter or completely remove existing weapons from Elite specs than it is to exlcude just specific Utility skills. Granted, we don't know for sure, but it is reasonable to assume so. Now, if this was all a non-issue I'd like to ask: How would you determine which Kits to include and which not? Or won't you entertain this because you're against the idea in general? ;)

I get it. You don't like a non-Kit scenario. However, me seeing it as valid doesn't make me biased. To me, it it does feel like a reasonable approach to further develope classes. Now, those two things might not matter when looking at how it plays out ingame. A proper concept won't always make a class successful or enjoyable. Maybe you're right and Holo without Kits will inevitabily be a disaster. Personally, I just don't believe this to be true.

You really don't seem to get what I am talking about. Yes, you have 2 weapon sets available. But you are also kinda hard locked into these. Kits are a weapon replacement and allow us to chose between an arsenal of different weapons for different playstyles and that's what you want to take away from holosmith, hard locking them into their weapon choices.

I don't need a lecture on the bad state Engineer is in weapon-wise, I'm well aware. ;) We both participated in several discussions about for example improving Pistol or introducing another MH weapon to core Engineer. I surely do get your point. I still don't agree.

It would be my choice to forgo Kits when I pick Holo. And it is my choice to pick weapons and traits that complement that kind of playstyle. Again, to me, this is a choice between a more straight forward playstyle of brute forse like Warrior (PF) vs. adaptability (Kits). If PF offers enough power, this is fine to me. While I can understand your point of view, it mainly feels like you value what you've got right now more than what you could potentially gain for losing it. Yet again: fair point, comes down to personal preference.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Yasai.3549" said:Wild idea guys :

What if they gave Core Engi more weapons to work with.Which would accomplish what? With no weaponswap in combat it still means only the "best" for your condi or power build is a viable option once you do enter combat. If there is a better condi weapon, no one run pistols anymore. If there is a better power weapon, no one run rifle anymore.

At best a 1h power weapon would allow the shield to be more usable in power builds but thats a rather loopsided improvement.

[Yasai.3549]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:

Which would accomplish what? With no weaponswap in combat it still means only the "best" for your condi or power build is a viable option once you do enter combat. If there is a better condi weapon, no one run pistols anymore. If there is a better power weapon, no one run rifle anymore.

At best a 1h power weapon would allow the shield to be more usable in power builds but thats a rather loopsided improvement.

Actually I think it would matter to some extent based on what is implemented.

Especially if they have finishers and utilities which promote comboing.

And at the same time, rework Gadgets to promote Comboing.

[Peutrifectus.4830]

OR simply rework core traits to produce multiple effective synergies which reqire 3 core trait lines to work and which would be impossible when selecting an elite spec.Mic drop.

[archmagus.7249]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@archmagus.7249 said:It would throw off the class balance for how many skills we can have use in combat. We already have the most skills available for use in combat (Holosmith with Holoforge, medkit, 3 utility kits, elite mortar kit, 4 toolbelt skills. (+1 if static discharge as it technically casts an elementalist skill) you want to add more available in combat skills.

I don't think it would throw off class balance. You mention holosmith as having the most skills available, but this suggestion is for

core engineer only

. So it doesn't affect holosmith at all.

Core engineer is terribly weak right now and could use a strong boost. And btw, your claim that engineer is the class with the most skills available is not correct. That title goes to elementalist.Holosmith: 5 weapon skills, 5 photon forge skills, 5 med kit skills, 15 utility kit skills, 5 mortar kit skills, 4 toolbelt skills. Total: 39 skillsElementalist: 20 weapon skills (5 for every attunement), 1 healing skill, 15 utility skills (you can slot 3 conjured weapons in these slots, each giving 5 skills like kits are doing, too), 5 skills from from elite conjured weapon. Total: 41

Considering that we are talking about core engineer here, the total number of skills available

with that buff

would be 40. Still less than elementalist.And that comparison is just with core elementalist, weaver and tempest are increasing the number of their skills even further.

The conjured weapons have a cooldown on them, and they don't last forever. Kits don't have cooldowns and don't expire.

[Kodama.6453]

@archmagus.7249 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@archmagus.7249 said:It would throw off the class balance for how many skills we can have use in combat. We already have the most skills available for use in combat (Holosmith with Holoforge, medkit, 3 utility kits, elite mortar kit, 4 toolbelt skills. (+1 if static discharge as it technically casts an elementalist skill) you want to add more available in combat skills.

I don't think it would throw off class balance. You mention holosmith as having the most skills available, but this suggestion is for

core engineer only

. So it doesn't affect holosmith at all.

Core engineer is terribly weak right now and could use a strong boost. And btw, your claim that engineer is the class with the most skills available is not correct. That title goes to elementalist.Holosmith: 5 weapon skills, 5 photon forge skills, 5 med kit skills, 15 utility kit skills, 5 mortar kit skills, 4 toolbelt skills. Total: 39 skillsElementalist: 20 weapon skills (5 for every attunement), 1 healing skill, 15 utility skills (you can slot 3 conjured weapons in these slots, each giving 5 skills like kits are doing, too), 5 skills from from elite conjured weapon. Total: 41

Considering that we are talking about core engineer here, the total number of skills available

with that buff

would be 40. Still less than elementalist.And that comparison is just with core elementalist, weaver and tempest are increasing the number of their skills even further.

The conjured weapons have a cooldown on them, and they don't last forever. Kits don't have cooldowns and don't expire.

Your argument has been usable in combat skills. Every skill in the game has cooldowns, yet you all count them. I don't see why you would exclude conjured weapons here. They are providing 5 additional usable in combat skills, even if these skills are locked behind a cooldown.

So still: the class with most in combat skills available is elementalist, not engineer.Also you didn't answer the part about this buff being a suggestion for core engineer only, a class that is seriously struggling right now. Core engineer is bottom tier, it can use a strong buff like this and it won't affect holosmith at all.

This is actually a way better suggestion to buff core engineer to be more on even ground with the elite specs scrapper and holosmith, which are doing fairly well. And unlike other suggestions, like buffing the F5 skills more, it doesn't put all the power in one single skill that is different, but it adds an additional mechanic for core engineer that is not available for the elite specs.

I don't see a reason why this buff shouldn't get considered.

[The Boz.2038]

Turrets scale with stats. This is not an option; this needs to happen with all summon types; elementals, minions, everything.Core needs actually viable, polarized weapons options. The half-and-half power rifle and two-thirds-condi-but-not-good pistol needs to end.Some utility skills and their related toolbelts need to be rethought, possibly switched.The design of the class needs to be a tiny bit rethought so they're not so "utility overload for PvP and WvW", because that approach will forever doom them in PvE. Better uptimes for offensive buffs in PvE is a good option.Possibly radical option: Make utility slot 3, IE skill 9, a mandatory toolkit. This would be the only toolkit available. Gotta place a toolkit skill in that slot. Can't have more than one, or less than one. Hugely streamlines the power and utility availability, allows for compensation of weapon switching, without leaving a utility overload option via three kits available.