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Epidemic of rangers and thieves in WvW


manu.7539

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@ASP.8093 said:

If you're playing something that gets eaten alive by ranged burst, I get how this is frustrating, but honestly no amount of nerfs is going to make your build all that useful as a roamer.

I know that particular player.He plays an engi. He has stealth, he has ranged defence and he has ample escape options. What he doesn't have (and so few casual pugs seem to) is awareness of when he's a big, juicy obvious target.

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@"Virdo.1540" said:thieves just need a nerf.They are squishy hard hitting classes ,right? No.

They have immense healing, tons of cleansing, permastealth, permaevade, epic range teleports on mass + hard hitting too.

There is an epidemic of thieves because they are unkillable, if played right. It doesnt even need fast hands or much knowledge.

And i forgot the portal... its cancer with permastealth. Not even a tower marker helps if they keep going invis every 2 secs (after 0.5s visible)

Then why aren't there squads full of them, especially during your "thief epidemic". What immense healing are you talking about, best they can do is keep their health low enough for a heal to replenish fast to keep them over a percentage more often to avoid damage increase off of health percentage. You can't tell me if thieves were all that there wouldn't be squads full of them cleaning up maps in record speed.

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@kash.9213 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:thieves just need a nerf.They are squishy hard hitting classes ,right? No.

They have immense healing, tons of cleansing, permastealth, permaevade, epic range teleports on mass + hard hitting too.

There is an epidemic of thieves because they are unkillable, if played right. It doesnt even need fast hands or much knowledge.

And i forgot the portal... its cancer with permastealth. Not even a tower marker helps if they keep going invis every 2 secs (after 0.5s visible)

Then why aren't there squads full of them, especially during your "thief epidemic". What immense healing are you talking about, best they can do is keep their health low enough for a heal to replenish fast to keep them over a percentage more often to avoid damage increase off of health percentage. You can't tell me if thieves were all that there wouldn't be squads full of them cleaning up maps in record speed.

have i said there are no squads of thieves only? ofc there are thief groups from 2 to +10

and yes they could clean out maps in superspeed, but thieves generally are just there to troll and spawnblock, in which they excel

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

If you're playing something that gets eaten alive by ranged burst, I get how this is frustrating, but honestly no amount of nerfs is going to make your build all that useful as a roamer.

I know that particular player.He plays an engi. He has stealth, he has ranged defence and he has ample escape options. What he doesn't have (and so few casual pugs seem to) is awareness of when he's a big, juicy obvious target.

You left out minstrel, full minstrel scrapper 90% of the time. I don't have any problems dying to ranger and thieves. Most days I can just stand there cause they can't outplay me. It doesn't change my original statement. Thieves are very low risk, high reward. I spent the first couple years on thief, insta-killing people and running from anyone that didn't just explode. I have several years of ranger main, especially the no downstate events, where I can safely delete people from 2k range. I just prefer to heal.

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@Ubi.4136 said:

I don't have any problems dying to ranger and thieves. Most days I can just stand there

Wait weren't these problem classes a moment ago?Now you can just stand there no problem?

Thieves are very low risk, high reward. I spent the first couple years on thief, insta-killing people and running from anyone that didn't just explode.

As the saying goes, fraps or it didn't happen.Or you could show us in person, we are matched this week after all.

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he's right as in that both of them are problematic classes since they add nothing for Wvw and are anti-teamplay, but easy to scam some cheap kills. they should get, specifically for Wvw, hard nerfs to their damage to make them more unattractive to pick.

@Virdo.1540 lol no. groups of thieves cannot do much more than single thieves. they cannot fight other zergs effectively. its a weak group play class. the 10 thieves get like 2 kills of a zerg at best and 8 of the 10 die in the process on average. has been tried, they only gank single targets faster in groups, kinda useless.

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@"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:he's right as in that both of them are problematic classes since they add nothing for Wvw and are anti-teamplay, but easy to scam some cheap kills. they should get, specifically for Wvw, hard nerfs to their damage to make them more unattractive to pick.

Scouting is teamplay. Disrupting supply is teamplay. Sneaking your way up to 20-50 people standing around a big wad of catas and shield generators to drop a siege disabler on all their stuff is teamplay. Heck, even tapping stuff or "ganking" reinforcements is teamplay.

WvW will always have asymmetric situations, resources and information to manage, and team roles that don't involve kitten-riding your commander in zergs.

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

I don't have any problems dying to ranger and thieves. Most days I can just stand there

Wait weren't these problem classes a moment ago?Now you can just stand there no problem?

Thieves are very low risk, high reward. I spent the first couple years on thief, insta-killing people and running from anyone that didn't just explode.

As the saying goes, fraps or it didn't happen.Or you could show us in person, we
are
matched this week after all.

I really do hope he takes you up on this.Please upload the recording for all to see.

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@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:he's right as in that both of them are problematic classes since they add nothing for Wvw and are anti-teamplay, but easy to scam some cheap kills. they should get, specifically for Wvw, hard nerfs to their damage to make them more unattractive to pick.

@Virdo.1540 lol no. groups of thieves cannot do much more than single thieves. they cannot fight other zergs effectively. its a weak group play class. the 10 thieves get like 2 kills of a zerg at best and 8 of the 10 die in the process on average. has been tried, they only gank single targets faster in groups, kinda useless.

Ya I don't see an all thief squad doing much unless they're all on point, once you have to baby sit one or two people it gets out of hand fast.

You can do alright in group play though if you can find that threshold for stats that lets you work in a radius for a bit. I build to cover people but most of my control skills and equipment slots also have to help rip or dismantle stuff because it's easier to set something up to flip control of a fight then to sustain.

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@"KeyOrion.9506" said:You people go "Rangers are Op" but only 1 out 10 commanders will take them into a zerg, the other 9 commanders tell the ranger to reroll? Yah we're going to dismount you, if we want to slow you down, to keep you from your target destination. Your the enemy. What? We're just supposed to wave at you as you pass by?

That's not because the ranger is not a good class for roaming, it is because the ranger does bring nothing to the squad. In an squad you need to provide to the group.Thieves are in the same bucket, Thief is the most oppressive class in 1vX still they aren't desired in squads same as Rangers if they can keep the range on the target.

Stealth in general needs a rework. It is a very oppressive mechanic which breaks any build it touches. It happened to Druid and DH.

Stealth needs to stop working a some range, so if you are close to the stealthed target you are able to see it. Thus making the class more engaging instead just spam stealth, do malicious backstab, teleport away, rinse and repeat.

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@"anduriell.6280" said:Thieves are in the same bucket, Thief is the most oppressive class in 1vX still they aren't desired in squads same as Rangers if they can keep the range on the target.

I'd like to humbly suggest that no class is "oppressive in 1vX." You can talk about what's more or less effective, sure, but nobody's out there single-handedly making entire groups leave a borderland because their class is just so OP in actual combat. (And chasing someone until you get bored is not at all the same thing.)

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@anduriell.6280 said:

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:You people go "Rangers are Op" but only 1 out 10 commanders will take them into a zerg, the other 9 commanders tell the ranger to reroll? Yah we're going to dismount you, if we want to slow you down, to keep you from your target destination. Your the enemy. What? We're just supposed to wave at you as you pass by?

That's not because the ranger is not a good class for roaming, it is because the ranger does bring nothing to the squad. In an squad you need to provide to the group.Thieves are in the same bucket, Thief is the most oppressive class in 1vX still they aren't desired in squads same as Rangers if they can keep the range on the target.

Stealth in general needs a rework. It is a very oppressive mechanic which breaks any build it touches. It happened to Druid and DH.

Stealth needs to stop working a some range, so if you are close to the stealthed target you are able to see it.
Thus making the class more engaging instead just spam stealth, do malicious backstab, teleport away, rinse and repeat.

Lmao what? First of thos is literally the perfect example of a stealth rework idea that so extreme it would never happen, like most ideas. A stealth that stops functioning at close range u say, how would that function exactly? Do we just delete the whole backstab mechanic and design cuz we know no ones landing them without being stealth'd unless ur opponent is a potato. So the thief designed as it is would engage in its predominantly melee fashion while being visible, thief would definitely require some hard buffs for that to happen. Not gonna go on but point is a whole thief rework would have to follow a change like stealth being lost at close range. Meaning it will never happen

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@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:he's right as in that both of them are problematic classes since they add nothing for Wvw and are anti-teamplay, but easy to scam some cheap kills. they should get, specifically for Wvw, hard nerfs to their damage to make them more unattractive to pick.

So because it's not your desired playstyle, they should be nerfed so nobody bothers with it? Objective balancing FTW.

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no, because the whole format isn't designed about all elite specs those classes have, period. if ranger and thief had a chronolike thing, they'd be legit. they have not, they are glass or smallscale mainly, which is the opposite that Wvw is built for.

most of them also don't try to be useful. the few that do also somehow manage to be, just still very nieche and u need not many of them. more than 4-5 of each per map is a weakening of the zergpower.

(matters less if the zerg'd be voiced and full with veterans, but for most servers that is a extremly utopian scenario)

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@"Sleepwalker.1398" said:I think Ranger use is sort of declining and there is an increase in thief.Come across so many duo of thief/mes or thief/rev and as soon as mes or rev dies, thief just runs away.

Thief usually does well in a duo with something sturdy to help it be able to stay in the fight. It runs because once the ally is down it will be focused and die.

Thief is usually slippery enough that you are better off in XvX focusing targets you can consistently pressure, then aoe the down to secure a kill and avoid a stealth res. Then attack the thief if they are still around.

Alternatively, you can try to hit the thief with cc during the fight to get them to burn a stun break or two. If they stay in the fight you may be able to briefly focus them down first. It's basically just another version of "watch your cool downs and don't spam into evade spam."

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Not sure the problem here? U see a ton of both ranger and thief roaming around cuz that's what the class is best at, u see few in zergs or atleast organized zergs, especially thief. U see a ton of the same classes in zergs but not roaming around cuz thats where their strength's lie so....No problems to report really on this front :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Truth is that every game needs a class, build, damage type, whatever that allows the below average person to play and feel good about themselves. What would happen if they actually nerfed that absolutely ridiculous kit that rangers have access to? Half of an already minuscule WvW playerbase would just stop playing. You need to balance around the baddies, that's why you have dire condi builds, rangers and whatnot.

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@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Funny you say this epidemic considering neither are meta and really have no space in a zerg so the only thing left is to roam/gank.

What about the mindless necros/revs/engines in zergs spamming a few skills here and there?That's reality denial.

This isn't 2012 anymore. Times have changed. Population issues and bandwagoning result in lots of servers doing smallscale fights 80% of the week. So it's 80% prime time for thieves and rangers.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Funny you say this epidemic considering neither are meta and really have no space in a zerg so the only thing left is to roam/gank.

What about the mindless necros/revs/engines in zergs spamming a few skills here and there?That's reality denial.

This isn't 2012 anymore. Times have changed. Population issues and bandwagoning result in lots of servers doing smallscale fights 80% of the week. So it's 80% prime time for thieves and rangers.

It really isn't. It's only servers like wsr/sfr and maybe gandara that actually has a grp of thives and they mostly play around smc. Since the link ups starter we can say that nearly everyone has faced each other now and in some cases actually link with every other server and in that 2 year (is it 2 years now?) I once not seen dedicated thief/ranger grp, there are far better small scales classes to have team fights with.

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@manu.7539 said:The most used class (at least in T1) these days are probably thieves and rangers. There's some good reasons for that.. rangers can dismount you with a rapid fire then kill u like a sitting duck in few seconds, if u dont believe it just try sw/d weaver.. it happens to me quite often! Thieves.. are thieves, no need to explain how annoying they are! ANET devs must be aware of all that but they obviously doesnt care! How did they manage to build such a nice game but then ruined it with such a bad balance! Money talk I guess, I dont feel like ANET is worthy of my money anymore! Why should I care for a company who doesnt care about their custumers?!?

If a ranger pops their rapid fire to burst down your mount how does he kill you afterwards when his main burst damage skill is on CD? Unless your build is glass cannon and really bad in 1v1 I don't see how that happens. Most of the time all it takes is a single evasion jump on your mount to negate more than half the damage from rapid fire. I've never gotten dismounted ever from a rapid fire when at full health. I don't think any ranger that knows what they're doing would waste their RF on a player mount to begin with since it's far easier to use their Mount #4 to dismount the opponent and follow that up with RF on the player.

You don't sound like you know what you're talking about.

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