The 'fix' for Infiltrator's Strike

[kKagari.6804]

To be honest, I don't get all the commotion surrounding S/D condition thieves, personally I don't see the build as been all that deadly, they are essentially a 900 ranged build, that doesn't suffer from line of sight. They suffer from all the same issues ranged builds generally have, that once you get in their face, they are drastically restricted in what they can do.

That said, I think this change will take some of the edge off of these builds, while completely remaining fair, and still viable.

Infiltrator's Strike should only award Infiltrator's Return if the strike lands. Just like Flanking Strike. This isn't a major change, but it does add a level of risk to the build.

Although, in saying that, there'll probably need to be a measure in place so that people don't use it as a free 900 range teleport.

[Asur.9178]

Sure, let's completely kill s/d, so d/p can continue being the only feasible weaponset. /s

[kKagari.6804]

Why would it kill S/D?If you are landing your hits, the build will work exactly as it does now. If you miss, there will be consequences. Just like every other class for missing their initiations.

[kKagari.6804]

I almost thought that was NSFW ;)

[Taobella.6597]

In the meta we are in now i think it be fair to even give back stun break on sword 2.

[BobbyT.7192]

@Taobella.6597 said:In the meta we are in now i think it be fair to even give back stun break on sword 2.

And remove the line of sight restriction from shadow trap

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Let's make it a projectile like shadow shot and if that lands then you are rewarded IR :D

[Turk.5460]

That would come with problems of its own, such as being turned into a gap closer with the same range as your max targeting distance.

[Zenith.7301]

The fix to infiltrator strike is to leave it alone and nerf the condi application that made it broken.

Infiltrator Strike has existed as is without problems until Anet went and gave panic strike ridiculous amounts of condi application.

Sword dagger should be a power spec loadout anyways, it's a complete aberration that it only works as a condi weapon.

The condi weapons are dagger/dagger and pistol/dagger.

[babazhook.6805]

@Zenith.7301 said:The fix to infiltrator strike is to leave it alone and nerf the condi application that made it broken.

Infiltrator Strike has existed as is without problems until Anet went and gave panic strike ridiculous amounts of condi application.

Sword dagger should be a power spec loadout anyways, it's a complete aberration that it only works as a condi weapon.

The condi weapons are dagger/dagger and pistol/dagger.

Panic strike is one poison stack. If one also traits Potent poison you get a second poison stack.

Traiting two skills and burning off 5 ini is hardly "ridiculous" when the end result is 2 poison stacks. One can get 9 bleed stacks off a single death blossom for 4 ini.

Shadowstrike gives 2 torment stacks for 4 ini. This without having to take any other trait for the same. Claiming that the Condi weapona RE D/D AND P/D is an opinion and not a fact. Indeed for the past 4 years people have been advancing the notion that d/d was a power weapon. One can make ANY weapon set a condition build if they trait for it. S/d as a condition set has no inherent damaging conditions yet is made into a condition set via venoms and steals , impaling loutus and unctachable all of which can be done with d/p as well.

S/d works as a power set. I use it as a power set. S/d power will wreck s/d condition.

[Kallist.5917]

The problem I can see with this is you are changing a weapon in a major way to deal with one builds use of that weapon. In the early years, I ran a Quickness S/D build, and that number 2 wasn't always used as a attack. Often it was used in conjunction with Shadow Step, and Steal to get on top of someone, down them before anyone around them could respond, then port back, This wouldn't have been an issue at first, but they did finally put a limit on how far we can travel with shadow return, and what your suggesting, I could see it dropping a player right in the center of an enemy zerg they had stepped past.

[Elxdark.9702]

Please can we stop looking for nerfs to sword? clearly the problem is not sword because it has been like that since the beginning and they have nerfed it countless times.

The problem is the poison stack gained from panic strike + potent poison and using lotus training as a cover so people will not clean the poison but the bleed/torment instead.

Removing poison or adding an icd from panic strike will stop the mindless spam from condi thieves and they will not be able to pressure you anymore.

[kash.9213]

Do you play thief? Do you play sword main hand? If so, how can you think making a major change to sword mechanic and the way sword main hand plays is a good idea when the sword mechanic isn't so much the problem?

[Saku Joe.2857]

@kKagari.6804 said:To be honest, I don't get all the commotion surrounding S/D condition thieves, personally I don't see the build as been all that deadly, they are essentially a 900 ranged build, that doesn't suffer from line of sight. They suffer from all the same issues ranged builds generally have, that once you get in their face, they are drastically restricted in what they can do.

That said, I think this change will take some of the edge off of these builds, while completely remaining fair, and still viable.

Infiltrator's Strike should only award Infiltrator's Return if the strike lands. Just like Flanking Strike. This isn't a major change, but it does add a level of risk to the build.

Although, in saying that, there'll probably need to be a measure in place so that people don't use it as a free 900 range teleport.

If you really willing to understand why this proposition isn't viable whisp me i'll take the time to make sure you understand.

[Blackari.2051]

@Zenith.7301 said:The condi weapons are dagger/dagger and pistol/dagger.

As sad as it is D/D is suppsed to be power loadout, hence the CnD + BS combo, but somehow someone in Anet thought it is good idea to give torment to #4.

[saerni.2584]

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:The condi weapons are dagger/dagger and pistol/dagger.

As sad as it is D/D is suppsed to be power loadout, hence the CnD + BS combo, but somehow someone in Anet thought it is good idea to give torment to #4.

Why? Has a dev ever said this?

[Kiroshima.8497]

Wait, were people really dying to JUST condi IS/IR? For me the problem with S/D is Hybrid Deadly Arts Trickery Acrobatics (which is a build i run too), where your double steal bomb into boon rip from S/D 3 destroys people (like Resistance dependent Revs).

Double steal is 6 poison and 10 confusion, not counting caltrops cover. Any boons you might have had are evaporated if they use Bountiful Theft, or they gain huge sustain options if they take Trickster (Withdraw and Roll for Iniative). While you wait for your next steal bomb you can kite with IS/IR, not for damage but for cleansing and creating space against melee builds (like current Might Makes Right core warrior).

[babazhook.6805]

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:The condi weapons are dagger/dagger and pistol/dagger.

As sad as it is D/D is suppsed to be power loadout, hence the CnD + BS combo, but somehow someone in Anet thought it is good idea to give torment to #4.

D/d Dblossom with 3 bleeds times 3 says otherwise. There are no "supposed to be's" with thief given the ability to spam a skill and access to utilities that can make any weaponset condition.

[Ravoku.1852]

@Taobella.6597 said:In the meta we are in now i think it be fair to even give back stun break on sword 2

I generally agree, and I'm not being a jerk when I say this, but I think it needs to be said because I see this comment a lot:

Sword 2 return wasn't actually a stun break for the majority of its lifespan, and the height of s/d useage. It's an important distinction, because being an actual stun break would imply it was stronger than it actually was before being nerfed. The instant cast could return you while stunned, but did not remove the CC. This is important because that means the skill's usefulness as a defense against CC follow up was more dependent on your positioning, and effectively did nothing if you were just abusing it at close range. Furthermore, it was less effective if you were getting bursted by range, since all you did was move, and were still unable to dodge/fight back until the CC was over or you used an actual stun break.

These are the arguments that should be used to convince devs that it wasn't as strong as some would like to believe. It's also worth noting that mesmer staff 2 also does this (teleport without stub break) but I'd argue is more reliable in that you don't need to set it up beforehand, and does not rely on your positioning as much.

[Link.1049]

The fix for infiltrators strike is for people to spend 2 minutes in a private arena with a thief running this build and learning how it works. People are freaking out because "omg it applies A stack of poison" and they can bounce away from a fight... like always". "But they do it over and over"... keep in mind for them to pop in and back out costs 6 initiative a pop. Don't blow all your condition clear (btw if you're playing pvp and have zero ways to clear conditions... you should address that) on the first hit. Wait until they've maxed out on you (you'll know because they will switch weapons or slow down on their incoming hits).

[MedievalThings.5417]

Actually, the reason people are unhappy about this build, is because you can teleport through "everything". It completely ignores ALL line of sight (just about). I do like the idea that return only being available if you hit though, but they HAVE to fix the LOS component.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

but you could do that since 5 years ago, why complain now? srsly stop not adapting and learn to play.

[Elxdark.9702]

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:but you could do that since 5 years ago, why complain now? srsly stop not adapting and learn to play.

Because now people use it to apply their damage and not for gap closer/escape, so instead of nerfing the poison(the thing that does the damage) people is thinking " let's nerf the teleport! it's the thing that does the job!"

Let's wait for tomorrow condi thief is getting nerfed 100%, but how? there's a high chance that anet nerfed sword instead of poison so prepare for the worst.

[Link.1049]

@Ubi.4136 said:Actually, the reason people are unhappy about this build, is because you can teleport through "everything". It completely ignores ALL line of sight (just about). I do like the idea that return only being available if you hit though, but they HAVE to fix the LOS component.

So are they going to change Mesmer teleport so it has line of sight? or the guardians teleport? or the ranger's pet? or that a guardians traps can hit through walls.... Seriously, take a step back, take a breath and realize it's not that scary.

I don't think there's going to be a major nerf of it... it's too easy to shutdown. I've said it before... you want to kill a class the relies on mobility, force it to stay still. Problem solved.

[Atticus.7194]

@kKagari.6804 said:They suffer from all the same issues ranged builds generally have, that once you get in their face, they are drastically restricted in what they can do.

they just teleport out again, often out of LoS, that's the difference. a lot of ranged classes when you get in their faces they don't have borderline infinite escapes, s/d do (especially as it's a stunbreak). it's not compelling as a melee class to have to endlessly chase someone with teleports or get chased by them for forever neither one of you accomplishing much.